BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Is that it, then?

 
  

Page: 12(3)45678... 9

 
 
Quantum
13:53 / 29.08.07
mmm, cake...
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
14:35 / 29.08.07
Ah. THERE you are.

Right.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:52 / 29.08.07
If you don't let this stuff go and find something new and love it then you may as well just sit on the South Bank with your 1990's football sticker book attaching pictures of Gazza.

For some reason I read that as "West Bank" and "Gaza", and for a moment I had absolutely no fucking idea what you were on about.

I've never really been much of a one for furniture anyway...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:58 / 29.08.07
Well I suppose there could be compromise and we could eat cake at Stoatie's table
 
 
Closed for Business Time
15:40 / 29.08.07
'Tis a sure sign of doom when Anna de Logardiere is no longer that.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:15 / 29.08.07
Fear not! Tryphena Sparks is retro - just a bit before your time, I think.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
16:19 / 29.08.07
Hey! Don't try that cosmogenic fishcakes on the bereaved! AdL or nuttin..
 
 
Closed for Business Time
16:22 / 29.08.07
Or does that mean that doom ain't nigh no-ho, but in fact Ye Golden Age is back? I vote Golden Age!
 
 
This Sunday
18:11 / 29.08.07
I always thought Tryphena was a poster who had simply left. Glad to see otherwise, even if it makes me wonder what other longterm name transitions I may have missed.
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
18:25 / 29.08.07
... and there YOU are.

Good.
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
18:39 / 29.08.07
And Lo. Yet again The End was Not Nigh. Instead, it transpired that everyone had gone off for a shag, or a slash, or Willy Hill's for a flutter.

And, other than in hushed, respectful tones, nobody spoke of That Night ever again...
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
20:20 / 29.08.07
then you'd just get a bunch of stoat grooms and people wanting to mount him with saddles.

Just like home!

I've always had a problem with these sort of threads, I imagine it's because I have a different experience than many. Or maybe not so many, actually, now that I've read Stoat's description of drunkenly stumbling onto Barbelith. I too have been here roughly seven years, having joined when I was 18 and drunk with stupidity, and I still can't complain about the place. I'll always be leaving and coming back to see what's up. Are we still making Stoat's Table jokes? Can I get a seat? I've brought cake, and some Red Stripe!

Although I do wait with baited breath to see what comes from Paleface's efforts.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:38 / 29.08.07
I'll go anywhere you guys are going. I will always be grateful to Tom for what he's done here, but above and beyond the board itself it's always been, for me, about the people (and that also includes Tom, of course).

I don't think we're right to pull the plug (even if we can, which I'm not sure about) just yet... but if you're all going to a different pub, then I'll certainly come along. But I'll leave my coat on a chair in this one.
 
 
Quantum
22:20 / 29.08.07
we could eat cake at Stoatie's table

Sparks, I like your style- we need your kind of spunk for the Stoatcakeathon in aid of Barbelith, it'll be like the Women's Institute but with beer and axes and guitarwolf.

Who's with me? There's nothing like cake and beer to liven up a fading board, cake and beer is always good.

If there is to be a Barbelith party to close the connectors, I insist it is in the flesh. With cake and beer.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:03 / 29.08.07
Beer cake. CAKE OF BOOZE.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
23:03 / 29.08.07
Much as I love my funereal dirges, I do love my connectorz. They make my Barbebox glow faintly aquamarine in the moonlight.
 
 
electric monk
03:11 / 30.08.07
If there is to be a Barbelith party to close the connectors, I insist it is in the flesh. With cake and beer.

And I'm going to have to insist on a video-inter-tube-simulcast thingamabob for Team America over here. And also cake. Beer-batter cake.
 
 
*
04:10 / 30.08.07
Right. I just dashed off an article for TempleComp that started eerily resembling a response to this thread. But here are some things I found myself reflecting on.

Let's talk about the tyranny of structurelessness. I've just been introduced to this article, written in 1970 by Jo Freeman as a response to crises in feminist groups at the time, but the ideas came up in anthropology classes in college. In short, when an organization appears to be "structureless," in reality it has a structure that is implicit, nonintentional, and largely unconscious. That structure easily becomes counter to the group's aims, but since it operates invisibly, it's almost impossible to rework.

Barbelith was started with some of the same ideals as these "structure-free" groups that Jo Freeman is critiquing here. Ideally, we were all supposed to be equal, and no one's ideas were supposed to be weighted any more heavily than anyone else's, except on their merits. In practice, it doesn't work out that way. I (usually) know what Haus is getting at when he's being sarcastic, but if a new person were to post the same way I would probably assume they were being earnest. I am sure many moderators tend to agree with certain others' moderation requests fairly automatically, because they know those moderators regularly make good decisions, and it's labor-saving and usually reliable to expect them to make good decisions in the future.

But it's not just about moderation decisions. People get roped into roles here, sometimes to our great frustration. I know I've had wild personality shifts on this board as I tried to resist roles I felt uncomfortable with. But it's natural for groups to settle into that kind of unspoken structure as well. Someone will be the patient person who always takes it upon themselves to gently address potential problem posters. Someone will be the person to incisively criticize new and not-yet-well-formed ideas, often to their destruction. Someone will be the voice of the reasonable opposition. Someone will be the D3v1Lz 4dV0Ka+3!!!. Someone will be the naif. Someone will be the rational moderate. Someone will always vehemently disagree with one or two particular other people, and vice versa.

And when people are fairly settled in these roles, a few things happen: First, it gets boring. We have lots of conversations that are more or less the same. Second, it gets frustrating. Posters try to break out of their roles, and inertia makes it difficult to do so. Third, new posters find it hard to find a place when everyone else seems to have a distinct role and voice. Finally, this structure is difficult to change or even analyze because it's unspoken, unplanned, and largely invisible. The group may resist seeing this structure because we like to think of ourselves as individuals always making free and reasonable choices, and we believe we've constructed a situation that supports those free choices for everyone. In truth, the environment would support free choices better if the hidden structures could be made more explicit.

Then we've got the organizational life-cycle problem. Every organization, whether a museum or message board, starts with a certain amount of momentum and a certain amount of structure. As the project moves forward, structure increases in order to focus and direct the momentum, and momentum decreases as it gets absorbed in creating and maintaining structure. At a certain point, there is the risk that there will be too little energy left to sustain forward movement and maintain the existing structure. The structure can start to disintegrate. Sometimes this makes way for change to happen, new life gets injected and the cycle gets rebooted. That's the best outcome. Often, though, fighting change is seen as a way to preserve the structure that's left. If the organization is successful at resisting change, stasis or senescence are the two possible outcomes, and stasis requires more energy to maintain. Making change a conscious decision might be the only way to save an organization at this point in its life cycle.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
06:32 / 30.08.07
Where's archabyss? Where's Olulabelle? Where's rizlamission? WHERE'S QUANTUM??? Where's Jack D?
I've been trying to make some moves in the real world. It's very hard, but I've got to try, right? I love you all.
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
06:35 / 30.08.07
THERE you are!

GOOD!
 
 
Tom Coates
07:05 / 30.08.07
How would you feel about us opening up registrations again? It's hardly optimal, but it seems better than shutting the whole place down. And in terms of banning, if you guys can agree with Haus about who should be banned and he sends me an e-mail then I'll ban them in the database when I receive the e-mails...?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:06 / 30.08.07
I think opening up registrations would decide things one way or another, and is probably for the best now (there seems little point in revisiting when and why it would have been right or wrong in the past).

I think Haus is right when he says:

So, what does Barbelith have as a community that makes it unique? Interestingly, it is something that is irrelevant, or unwelcome, to many of its members, I believe - and working this out has taken quite a while. It is a place on the Internet where a broad range of discussions can take place on a wide variety of topics, where membership is at least theoretically open to anyone, but where standards of conversation - in terms of the quality of discussion (to an extent) and the deployment of ideas and language likely to be seen as hurtful or hateful - are kept up, and where that is done generally without recourse to tools such as the editing of content or the expulsion of members without consultation. This may no longer be a desirable aim for many of the members...

In retrospect that seemed to happen almost by fluke, and has always taken a lot of hard and thankless work by a relatively small number of people to maintain. Yes, there have been issues on which everyone seemed to agree enough to make Barbelith a refreshing place on the internet, but there have been just as many slides into most people in a thread shrugging and saying "racism? misogyny? don't see it...", and a small but significant number of argument that really split the most long-term members of the board down the middle as to what was meant by hateful ideas and language.

I think there's a lot of people who were mainstays of the board for several years who are now asking not "what's happened to make Barbelith not as enjoyable for me as it used to?" but "how did a board that actually was started up to discuss Grant Morrison's The Invisibles turn into something else for quite so many years?", faced with the prospect that said comic and its most obvious associations may now again be the main thing drawing people to the board. The questions that obviously follows on from that are "What am I doing here?" and "Is it really right that I let my own definition of Barbelith keep me here and keep me unhappy when it flies in the face of the majority view?" Maybe Barbelith was never really ours, we just borrowed it for a while. We built a castle on this rock and blah blah inappropriately melodramatic extended metaphor let the sea claim it again.

I'm just not sure even Haus is either equal to the task (in the sense of time and mental stamina) or really (did anything so bad that he) deserves the job of being the person effectively in charge of organising bans on a Barbelith with open registration, all other things being as they are.
 
 
Quantum
08:07 / 30.08.07
How would you feel about us opening up registrations again?

I would feel good about it, personally, and just brace myself for a lot of Invisibles threads getting bumped and having to repeat a lot of stuff in the Temple. Not ideal, as you say, but a hand-crafted banning process is better than a hand-crafted admissions process.
 
 
Quantum
08:15 / 30.08.07
the job of being the person effectively in charge of organising bans on a Barbelith with open registration

I agree it shouldn't just be one person, and I don't want Haus to have to be the Atlas supporting the globe that is Barbelith, oiling its working with the sweat of his brow. Tom, who else would you trust?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:20 / 30.08.07
We proposed Randy before. Paleface/Olmos would also work. Moving this discussion to "Topics of Concern - Banning".

Note: if we open applications, we can expect sustained trolling from day one. Tying user identities to specific email addresses will help with this but will not slow it down significantly.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:46 / 30.08.07
Open it up, whatever happens it's going to be interesting.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:07 / 30.08.07
I actually hope that, although the people who actually email the applications database are almost exclusively eager to discuss t3h comix or t3h majix, there are a number of people who do not bother to send an email, surmising that it is not worth the effort or that they are unable or unwilling to verify their "real" existence.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:22 / 30.08.07
I think we should open it up - because otherwise I think it has really just ran its course in its current incarnation, and rather a sudden influx of new activity that radically changes the nature of the place for better or for worse, than the slow lingering death that seems to be happening at the moment. It just feels like somebody needs to open up a door or a window and let some fresh air in.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:25 / 30.08.07
If you think there's going to be serious trolling right away then I'm less concerned about the system of banning then I am that Tom is going to read his email everyday in case we need someone to be banned promptly and then have the flexibility to go into the back end and sort it out as soon as the email has been read. Haus is the only person who reads consistently enough/remembers enough to make very quick decisions on who to ban so he is the right person to make those decisions, it's whether the response to his emails is quick enough to avoid a storm that is the issue for me.

Tom if you open registration are you going to have time/be available to commit yourself to banning within 24 hours of an email being sent to you? If not then this could create more problems than it solves.

I would like registration to be opened whether it creates problems or not but losing barbelith isn't a life changing issue for me. If it collapses I lose some things I've written these days but you're assigning yourself a level of responsibility to barbelith that you've consistently said you can't maintain over the last few years.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:29 / 30.08.07
Could you copy this to "Topics of Concern - Banning", Tryphena?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:32 / 30.08.07
As requested!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:56 / 30.08.07
Open it up? Oh God yes.

And I'd certainly trust Haus, Randy and Paleface. (I definitely think it should be more than just Haus- for no other reason than that, like most people, he takes a holiday every now and then. If there're three people doing it, the chances of one of them being around when needed are a lot higher).
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
11:43 / 30.08.07
I concur with opening and rapid banning.

I frequent a much, MUCH larger site called Democratic Underground that very often yields some pretty good writing and discussion despite its enormous size and very high troll-frequency. Mods word is law and banning is prompt and ruthless.

Threads get deleted, locked, and transferred fast, at the mods discretion. It all works very well.

I have to say that I'm slightly surprised there isn't a great deal more specificity in the wiki about what gets you banned, but as the banning process appears to have been problematic in recent times, perhaps it's *not* so surprising.

I'm willing to bet that a list of "don't even think about it" behaviours on the wiki/prominently displayed during the registration procedure would be likely to head a fair few trolls off at the pass, whilst in many ways it's delightful I don't really think a tongue-in-cheek Venn diagram cuts it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:49 / 30.08.07
Threads get deleted, locked, and transferred fast, at the mods discretion. It all works very well.

As has been mentioned so many times before, this is how pretty much every board in the universe apart from Barbelith functions. Barbelith cannnot function like this. We are trying to find ways around this at present.

One of these is a proper set of Ts and Cs, indeed. Since the chances of getting this worked out by consensus is less than minimal, I will have a think about it.
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
12:45 / 30.08.07
As has been mentioned so many times before, this is how pretty much every board in the universe apart from Barbelith functions. Barbelith cannnot function like this. We are trying to find ways around this at present.

Ooookidoki.

/...bows

Note to self - check previous threads for "helpful suggestions."

I agree with your take. I'm sure everyone would trust you to come up with a list of potential offenses in short order and then... make it so. Criticism, were it necessary, should came after, in my view.
 
  

Page: 12(3)45678... 9

 
  
Add Your Reply