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Is that it, then?

 
  

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grant
18:38 / 27.08.07
One thing we can do is keep the Wiki updated with news

Welll... part of the problem is that the wiki has a bajillion spam User Accounts that no one (but Tom) can delete under the current setup. All it needs is one line of text in a php file, I think....

Anyway, much of the wiki has been protected, which means ordinary users can't add things.

I can unprotect pages, and I think any of the other three sysops can, too. I can try unprotecting a few pages next week or so, if people would like, to see what kind of spam happens. But I'd rather simply delete the bot-accounts that create the problem.
 
 
Leigh Monster loses its cool
19:09 / 27.08.07
If I never set foot in policy, I'd never know we're supposed to be adrift helplessly in search of a new planet to colonise so we could get the Head Shop running at eighty percent optimal or such.

It's been said before (can't remember where, or by who specifically, but I've read it more than once) that the newer members of barbelith are happier with what the board is because we don't know what we're missing. We weren't around for when it was at its best, and maybe to some degree we're also missing the point.

Even if that's the case, and what we're defending is just a sort of social shell of what barbelith was intended to be, I don't think that element of barbelith can be covered by facebook or livejournal. Barbelith doesn't feel like a big, scary, often nasty and exceedingly public space the way that facebook does. Whether or not the discussion areas are as prolific as they used to be, barbelith is still unique, even if only in ambience. And while that may sound worthless, it still keeps a fair amount of people attached.

For someone like me who doesn't contribute much to the revolution or the spectacle, it might be selfish to want those kinds of things to continue to exist as places I can go. Still, when I read threads in the Headshop or the Switchboard, I retain a level of interest in the subjects discussed that I normally wouldn't, just because I feel that I'm connected to the discussion by virtue of being connected to the community discussing. It's hard enough for a real live teacher in a realspace classroom to get hir students interested in the subjects they're studying; I think any space on the internet that can do that is worth its salt.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
20:24 / 27.08.07
It's been said before (can't remember where, or by who specifically, but I've read it more than once) that the newer members of barbelith are happier with what the board is because we don't know what we're missing. We weren't around for when it was at its best, and maybe to some degree we're also missing the point.

Even if that's the case, and what we're defending is just a sort of social shell of what barbelith was intended to be, I don't think that element of barbelith can be covered by facebook or livejournal. Barbelith doesn't feel like a big, scary, often nasty and exceedingly public space the way that facebook does. Whether or not the discussion areas are as prolific as they used to be, barbelith is still unique, even if only in ambience. And while that may sound worthless, it still keeps a fair amount of people attached.


That's worth repeating. This is a pretty good articulation of why I've been repeatedly posting in the Policy these last couple of months, and why I came back from a brief absence.

Because, dammit, I don't want to see this place fold. It's got so much history, and so many good, good people who post here, or did post here. Olmos/Paleface's board might have a lot of the same people posting, and it might have functionality in it that makes it tenable (because it takes into account the fact that, yes, there are arseholes in the world who'll take the chance to shit on anything they come across, regardless of how beautiful and unique and special anyone else thinks it is), but it won't be Barbelith, because it won't have the shared history and experiences of this place.

I was trying to explain to my wife why I was checking this thread on my PDA while we were wandering around in the sun on the South Bank today, and I kept saying 'it's so sad, seeing something that I care about just wither away.' Because I do care about this place. Snarky shitfights and everything else aside, it really is a unique place, and to see it die because people just stop posting is horrendous. And they're stopping posting because it's become a walled garden, and yes, it would be a major hassle to do the kind of back-end changes that'd be needed to make this place able to cope with the reality of the internet today (a lot more people online = a lot more objectionable eejits online), but is it preferable to just let the place grind to a halt than find the people and the time to make those changes?

Well, I hope that something happens, whether it's a concerted effort to change Barbelith so it can adapt and survive, or whether Tom bites the bullet, archives the site and closes it, but anything would be preferable to this ongoing limbo.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:33 / 27.08.07
I don't think that element of barbelith can be covered by facebook or livejournal

It can't, and I've been here for six years and am still convinced I missed the best bits. To paraphrase Flyboy, all Golden Ages are bullshit.

What I liked about Barbelith as opposed to Facebook or Livejournal is that you DO get people you don't know. I don't like that whole "I want to discuss stuff, but only with my mates" thing. Many people do, and fair play and good luck to them. I don't, really. I like meeting people I'd never have met otherwise and shooting the shit with them.

I wish we'd never made registration such a fucker. I understand exactly why we did, but I wish we hadn't. I seem to remember that one of the arguments for closing registration (a certain Welsh motherfucker who, I note, hasn't yet turned up as a famous screenwriter notwithstanding) was that we'd die under an avalanche of trolls. That seems a more heroic end than the one we're facing, really.

Personally, and without wishing to name names (well NAME), though I can if people so desire, I lost a lot of my ability to actually give a shit a few months ago when, after spending the last few years as "the guy who sticks up for people even if they're actually wrong, just for the sake of fairness", I had a bannee turn around and basically shit in my face (and various other people's) post-banning. Having had fights with people I respect and care about (both online and off) over him, I figured it just wasn't fucking worth it anymore.

It occurred to me today that a lot of my posting (and I have a LOT of posts to my name) was in threads dealing with shit like that. OK, the majority was probably Late Shift chats about waffles and booze and robots, but I put a lot of emotional effort into the Policy, as did (and do- a lot of people have more staying power than me) many others. Now I can't really be arsed with that I'm a bit lost.

It also occurred to me that... a fair few people still seem to be getting a lot out of this place. Not all of them post in the Policy. Not all of them post frequently. But (I'm not sure if I'm one of the Barbe-elite, but...) should those of us who have a higher profile actually HAVE the right to tell everyone it's fucked, party's over, pool's closed...? Should we even have the right to tell Tom we think that's what HE should do?

I have no fucking idea, really.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:54 / 27.08.07
I implore you all...

...please don't make me spend the rest of my online life on 4chan.

It's not good for the brane.
 
 
HCE
00:45 / 28.08.07
What I liked about Barbelith as opposed to Facebook or Livejournal is that you DO get people you don't know.

You get people you don't know with Livejournal. I joined with one friend, then started getting a sense of other people via their conversations with that friend. Other people got a sense of me, and it went on from there. It doesn't have to be that organic if you don't want it to be, either. You can find people more or less randomly as well.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
01:17 / 28.08.07
"More or less" doesn't really do it for me, though. I found Barbelith totally by chance. I knew NOBODY on here. And nobody I knew knew anybody on here, and if they did, it just wouldn't have come up in conversation. Had I stumbled upon it in the last couple of years, I wouldn't have got in. And I probably wouldn't have tried- we're not that fucking great that people will make more effort to get in than we do to make the place live.

I found Barbelith one night when I was really drunk, and registered. If I'd had to wait a couple of months, or get fast-tracked by someone, or do ANYTHING other than click a button and then spend the rest of the night wandering around and playing, I'd not have remembered it the next morning. Maybe six months down the line I'd have got an email, assumed it was selling me something, and deleted it.

OK, me not being here might not have been such a bad thing, but from MY point of view...

I still maintain that's where we went wrong.
 
 
grant
01:55 / 28.08.07
I'm sitting at Stoatie's table.
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
06:52 / 28.08.07
You know, I've had a little revelation. Personally, I'd rather be on this message board making silliness and interestingness with just 5 of you guys than anywhere else. Folk here have brains, even if they are often slightly peculiar brains.

Hey. *I'll* keep posting.
 
 
jentacular dreams
10:59 / 28.08.07
Better a barbelith you know then?

Question - the board's coding is unique, and we have no ban button. But is it absolutely truly impossible to break out the spanners and knock one into place? Even if it's really inelegant (say, banned IP addresses), and the process takes the board out of action for a month? Because as I understand it, the board's software is like the house barbelith lives in. Should we wish to add another door or even an extension, a rewrite should be possible if the appropriate supports are put in place.

I understand that Tom is too busy to do any of this, but what about contacting Cal direct? I don't mean to undermine (or sound like I don't appreciate) Olmos's efforts, but as has been said above, any new site will not be barbelith, and I'd be as sad as any of you to see the place die slowly.
 
 
invisible_al
12:01 / 28.08.07
It's been tried, Cal built this board as a favour to Tom, he has a bit more of a day job now building Flickr. Last thing we heard many months ago was that Tom was going to get in contact with Cal about updating the Barbelith software, but we've heard nothing since.

I think Barbelith's community would work where ever it ended up and actually having the ability to open the board up and ban people (which would have to go hand in hand) would do it the world of good.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
12:59 / 28.08.07
Last thing we heard many months ago was that Tom was going to get in contact with Cal about updating the Barbelith software, but we've heard nothing since.

I suppose the best thing to do is just take Tom Coates at face value when he says, as God only knows he's done often enough, that he's neither willing nor able to change the board's software at this point in time. For all the reasons, valid or otherwise, that he's repeatedly explained in some detail.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
13:38 / 28.08.07
For all the reasons, valid or otherwise, that he's repeatedly explained in some detail.

Where, please? I've had a good dig around in Policy archives, and I can't find this. I think a good deal of the frustration of us relative newbies is that we can't find the reasoning behind everything being in limbo like this, and we don't have the inherent understanding of the causes that we'd have if we'd been around when the current state of affairs came about.

We want to dig this place out of its current torpor, but I think we'd also like to see the board opened up again, and functionality/modding capabilities added so the board can cope. So if there's been repeated discussion of why that's not gonna happen, can anyone point me to it?
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
14:00 / 28.08.07
To my eye, this looks like the latest word on the subject?
 
 
jamesPD
14:02 / 28.08.07
Also here.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
14:14 / 28.08.07
Right then.

The 'why can't we get the power of banning/open the board again' discussion is a circular one. Let's assume that's not going to change any time soon (as is the repeated assertion of Tom and Haus and a few others).

There's Paleface/Olmos' board, with it's interesting idea of temporary bans, naughty steps and the like. Tom's point in the post I linked above, however, is that he'll be surprised if another board will be able to successfully keep a lid on trolling with open registration, so I'll be interested in how effective Olmos' solutions are.

What's to be doing in the meantime though? I'm posting as much as I'm able, on the threads I'm interested in, but at times it feels like running around a stadium trying to get a Mexican Wave going. And everyone's asleep. Or not there.

At the moment, there's about two or three threads floating around the top of the Policy, all tangentially discussing the current malaise. I'm not about to start another one, but I think there is a discussion worth having about how to liven the ol' place up - how do we encourage discussion and get people posting again?

Access to some stats would be a massive, massive help in this of course - at the moment everything is based on our perceptions, rather than any real data about posting frequency, inactive ficsuits etc.

If people think this would benefit from its own thread, I'll start one.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:38 / 28.08.07
There are many things I could start in the books forum; unfortuinately I'll need to get home internet running again before I can contribute as I need ot have the books there next to me to write about.
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
14:44 / 28.08.07
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. I feel *guilty*! I feel bad that I haven't followed up on a couple of lith projects in good time. The concerned parties don't seem to be posting at all anymore (quants and nolte are among them).

Where's archabyss? Where's Olulabelle? Where's rizlamission? WHERE'S QUANTUM??? Where's Jack D?

ATM I'm doing my usual thing of bursting into 12 threads at once and then running away again.

I suppose I'm used to faster boards. I used to post a lot to Democratic Underground and was used to getting 30-40 responses to one thread, usually in a day...Granted, a good 70% of them would be fluff. But fluff bulks threads out and attracts more interesting interaction.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
15:06 / 28.08.07
Where, please? I've had a good dig around in Policy archives, and I can't find this

To be honest, and I did look, I can't either. Which does shoot the whole 'repeatedly' argument in the foot, a bit. But this isn't the kind of thing I'd make up for my own amusement - TC has said, pretty much without reservation, that there's nothing to be done about the functionality of Barbelith at present ... I don't know if anyone might have a link ...?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:31 / 28.08.07
Try the Topics of Concern threads, or the broken board, linked above.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:32 / 28.08.07
I'm not sure that Cal ever had any real interest in this place other than somewhere that he could test out his mad coding skillz. Certainly never enough to post. Again, not the best idea, in retrospect.

HQ> I've been trying to get G&G busy - fuck me, how I've tried - but the effort just doesn't seem worth it. If I wanted to talk to myself, I'd start posting to my blog again. I don't. I want to have a discussion about these things. Other people are, I'd imagine, currently feeling much the same way about the sections of the board that they have/had something invested in.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
16:40 / 28.08.07
Enigmatic, I feel it, and I PM'd you about it too. I've been posting in G&G, and other areas of the board too.

I think we're hobbled, here, by not being able to really see where the lack of posting is coming in, through lack of access to stats. Do we have a vast number of ficsuits who joined, posted once or twice then never came back? Or do we have a gradual slowing down/leaving of veteran posters, combined with newbies who aren't posting enough to hide the slowdown?

Or is it somewhere between?

Assuming we're not going to get any new functionality, is a new board the only real answer? I wrote an extended metaphor in another policy thread about this place feeling like the warehouse in Indiana Jones, and I think that still applies.

If only to see who's still here and actively interested enough to move boards, maybe a new board is the only answer.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
16:45 / 28.08.07
I wrote an extended metaphor in another policy thread about this place feeling like the warehouse in Indiana Jones

I'm still working on my extended metaphor about Barbelith being like Rapture in Bioshock, but I don't think anyone who hasn't played the game will get it.

AND my "freedom in games- a really bad idea?" thread. If I wasn't so drunk now, I'd get right in there. As it is, I'm torn by the fact that probably nobody will want to talk about it... but hey, if it's just me, Randy and a couple of others that, like a cat, IS ALSO FINE. (Too much 4chan, I'm afraid... it pops up in all of my discourse now).
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
16:49 / 28.08.07
Personally, I'd totally read a 'Barbelith as Rapture' thread, and contribute too.

Could possibly couch it as 'Barbelith as Randian Utopia gone wrong' to forestall 'but I don't play computer games' threadrot.

Just had an image of the Conversation infested with screaming Splicers. Heh.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:53 / 28.08.07
Assuming we're not going to get any new functionality, is a new board the only real answer?

It'd appear to be the only way that we're ever going to sort out the registration issue. And as that's the biggest problem here, then yeah, I think it really is.
 
 
alas
19:57 / 28.08.07
Can I join grant and stoatie at the table with the cigarette floating in the whisky...and some sweaty dude passed out in a tuxedo?

I have been involved in real life political struggle all spring and then a new one this past summer (spelled An-ti-och), which has taken most of my time. And, during that time, I started my own, very slow livejournal blog. I don't like the whole livejournal space that much, either, although I like to use it to catch up with people I've met here.

I don't like the sense of being the star of my own show that I get when I try to post. If you check, you'll note that I don't tend to start threads here, either; I'm more of a singer in a choir than a solo-act, frankly.

I loved finding this space of mostly non-Americans talking politics, philosophy, books, comics, and doing so wittily. That's what I loved, and came, and stayed for. I miss the pace of it, as it was, but I'm a choir singer, not a conductor, as I said, so I don't know what to do about it.

So, can somebody pass me the bottle of flat champagne? Let's put our arms around each other's necks and waists and sing a drawly drunken love song to the 'lith.
 
 
Feverfew
20:10 / 28.08.07
Oh, Stoatie's table is the table to be on, alright.

The problem is, as has been said, traffic. Either there's not enough, or there's too much of the wrong sort that antagonises people.

It feels like Barbelith needs a little bit of a reboot, maybe, or more of a feeling of inertia - but I'm projecting, I guess.

I don't think this should be it, at all, but if it is, drunken-love-song-singing is always a plus...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
21:11 / 28.08.07
mnotsweatymrflemurrmumurfltakeyouallonzzzzzzzzzz
 
 
Papess
22:55 / 28.08.07
...and some sweaty dude passed out in a tuxedo?

That'll be me. I get that all the time.
 
 
This Sunday
23:42 / 28.08.07
So, basically, the new board, when/if there is one, should probably be called Stoatie's Table, to assure everyone transitions over?

We may get less Morrison fans, that way and more lovers of stoats and tables, which could prove entertaining. Plus, I like the odd-lauding name scheme.

www.stoatiestable.com - Is that it, then? Yes. Yes, that is it.
 
 
grant
00:28 / 29.08.07
then you'd just get a bunch of stoat grooms and people wanting to mount him with saddles.
 
 
Papess
02:30 / 29.08.07
So, basically, the new board, when/if there is one, should probably be called Stoatie's Table, to assure everyone transitions over?

Dammit, I was going to suggest that! I mean...fine idea Decadent.
 
 
invisible_al
11:53 / 29.08.07
Hmmm I'm liking it So does that mean Stoatie is El Presidente for Life or First Tiger?

And just a small point, it's not the end of Barbelith, it's the beginning of something new. Cliched? Possibly but dear god do we need change round here and moving out is the only way we're going to get it. So roll on teh new board I'm all a-quiver with anticipation myself.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:15 / 29.08.07
The Internet needs contention, not trolls but people who disagree with each other and aren't really really stupid. In order to have a massage bored that fulfills these criteria I'm going with we need a place that isn't searchable in the way that barbelith is. We need people who look at page 18 of a google search, not page one of a search for Grantham Mulciber.

it won't be Barbelith, because it won't have the shared history and experiences of this place.

Fuck Barbelith, no seriously, that history and experience stuff is nonsense because t'internet is a fleeting place where things move quickly (think Ferris Bueller) and if we just sit here talking about things then we're technologybranedeadteamgo. If you don't let this stuff go and find something new and love it then you may as well just sit on the South Bank with your 1990's football sticker book attaching pictures of Gazza.

That's not to say I think this is the end, more that if we don't get our gears on it's going to get so boring that we'll all become trolls.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:19 / 29.08.07
Also if you call anything Stoatie's Table I'm fucking out of here. No offence dude but seriously, that name is whack.

Let's call it "Enid's scrumptious bitesize cake shop", that would totally attract the right custom.
 
  

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