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Is that it, then?

 
  

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Glenn Close But No Cigar
13:02 / 20.11.07
Doing what? Being a pompous ass, or complaining about somebody being a pompous ass?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:19 / 20.11.07
Glenn, you clearly have no interest in interacting constructively with the Policy (except insofar as it allows you to gather an audience of Daddy, since moderators are forced to keep track of what you are saying here). At best your speech acts in Policy are pointless bindweed - your repeated cries of "look at me!" in the recent discussion of the Temple, for example - and at worst the kind of low-level harassment which makes even your apparently sincere attempts to start discussion elsewhere seem uninviting fare.

Your decision to pop up here to troll Flyboy - Barbannoy clearly not being attention enough for you - in an unrelated discussion only confirms this. From defending Mathlete, you appear to be attempting to become him. I think it might be best for you, as for him, to stay out of the Policy; it would certainly be best for the Policy.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:32 / 20.11.07
May/Medulla/Chrysis - certainly. Can we not spend our time picking largely unprofitable fights, as Flyboy did with you, you did by moving into the realm of personal judgements on him (remember - "this is a bad thread" is not the same as "you are a bad person"), and Glenn Beefy Glenn Horse over there did having been given the opportunity. It is not particularly relevant to the topic under discussion, which is whether Barbelith has any future, except possibly in the very specific sense of demonstrating what that future might be spent doing.
 
 
Papess
13:37 / 20.11.07
Speak to Flyboy about his actions, Haus. He picked on me and if I am not supposed to respond to that and keep quiet while he pisses on me, then there is something wrong with that. Take it up with him instead of addressing me, who is merely defending myself from bullying tactics. Go to the source of the issue, please.

And flyboy isn't merely picking on a thread topic. It is done in a distinctly derogatory manner, and quite obviously personal.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:44 / 20.11.07
Speak to Flyboy about his actions, Haus.

I just did, in the post above, where I ask you both to be responsible for your actions. If you are unwilling to do so, then that is unfortunate. However, I would ask you as a personal favour to be more moderate in your language and your responses, and perhaps to consider what further profit you are making from not only perpetuating but ramping up your use of offensive language in this thread, which is as a result of all of the agents' actions becoming an unedifying scrap rather than a Policy discussion.
 
 
jentacular dreams
13:48 / 20.11.07
Far be it from me to interrupt, but I'd like to second Stoat's easier to join opinion. At this rate by this time next year all we'll have is an online museum.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:52 / 20.11.07
There is a way to do it, I think - it's still pretty labour-intensive, but three or four people could cover it pretty easily. However, it needs Tom to sign off on the change of process - I've suggested something, but, as I say, he's likely to be very busy in the near future - I'm not even sure current passed applicants are getting invitations to join.
 
 
Glenn Close But No Cigar
13:53 / 20.11.07
(Constructive Policy Interaction) Yup, I'd echo the call for Barbelith to be easier to join too. (End Constructive Policy Interaction).
 
 
Papess
13:57 / 20.11.07
However, I would ask you as a personal favour to be more moderate in your language and your responses

Well, that is reasonable, but don't see the proper attitude being taken by mods toward Petey/Flyboy. That is frustrating me. Using l33t speak, or whatever it is called, to couch one's derogatory intentions in comments is getting on my nerves. I find there is an arrogance there, a pomposity. Using l33t speak to refer to other people's ideas and discussions, makes the implication that that idea or discussion is indeed inferior to a proper idea or discussion. So, I called it as I saw it, sorry i had used the word "ass" as well.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:58 / 20.11.07
Right. I'm afraid I don't react well to this kind of self-pitying, situation-distorting sarcasm - in which someone already pre-emtively sets themself up as the victim by suggesting that I want to shut down the board so they can't use it, when I have only talked about leaving it myself. I apologise for summarising a thread Chrysis-Euxenia 2GETR@ last! started in l33t speak, although copying and pasting that username and apologising for l33t speak seems discongruous. I'm afraid I cannot pretend that my opinion of the thread in question is high, or that my feelings during the period in which it was at the top of the Conversation were positive.
 
 
Papess
14:08 / 20.11.07
although copying and pasting that username and apologising for l33t speak seems discongruous.

Think of the manner in which it is used, Petey. I am not ridiculing anyone! Which, you still are, in your insincerity.

I'm afraid I cannot pretend that my opinion of the thread in question is high, or that my feelings during the period in which it was at the top of the Conversation were positive.

So, does that mean you can ridicule me or anyone else because of your opinions? There are a lot of threads which I don't have a high opinion of, I don't feel it is opbligatory to piss in them or take the piss out of the thread-starter if there is an honest discussion going on. I stay out of it!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:12 / 20.11.07
Now, I think everyone has said their piece, and indeed their piss, on this issue.

The fact of the matter is that Barbelith will still exist until Tom unplugs it, either through commission (deleting it from the server) or omission (ceasing to pay the server hosting, or not fixing the code if it breaks). Even if there is no way for people to join, there will still be a set of people with access to it, and they will be able to use it with the current level of functionality unless and until one of those circumstances occurs. Without Tom's agreement (or at least a definite timetable with which he was not interfering) any sort of wake would be symbolic. Barbelith continuing to exist doesn't harm any subsequent social group, and in some ways may help it.
 
 
Papess
13:25 / 21.11.07
Yes, it is awful here at Barbelith and you all should shut it down so no else can enjoy it.

Let me explain: It should be clear that I am being sarcastic and not addressing any one person. It is meant to be general and extreme to show how sad it is to me to have constantly see these types of attitudes on Barbelith. Let's make a new board!, Barbelith is Dead!, The board should be shut down!, The board is broke!...and so on.

It isn't broke and it is not dead. If some people are fed up with it making a new board is possible and can be done in a day. Or, if there is always the option of just leaving. No one is holding anyone here.

However, there are people who feel they have invested a lot of time here, and that in part holds them here. Fair enough. These are the same people who seem to complain about this place being broken or stagnant and boring! Well, I think it may just be in one's perception. Running in circles, even if you are in Disneyland, is still running in circles, boring and repetitive.

So, I agree that this place should be opened up, and new, fresh perspectives be allowed in. Those who are tired of the place and running over the same ground should step back, and let those who have more patience and enthusiasm for it do the running around the place to maintain the site.

For example, I did some volunteer work with new immigrants to Canada a few years back - sort of a welcoming and familiarizing with the community. There were so many things I just took for granted about what my own community offered me. Some of it was a little obvious to me and surprising. For example, the manner in which we do groceries. A lot of the orientation was quite individualized as well, because people came form different places and the experience of the country and community was going to impact them in a different way than the next person or family.

It's just an example of how necessary repetition is and how it may get difficult to do year after year. And yes, there are cases where people have been in the community for a long time and still manage to "not get it". That is just human beings for ya. There are always going to be issues, and that doesn't mean Barbelith is a lost cause. There also may be a necessity to change or add to the infrastructure of Barbelith in ways we cannot comprehend because Barbelith exist in a bit of a sterile environment. Opening the place up and/or a changing of the guard might be a good place to start.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:41 / 21.11.07
I've been thinking about it, and I've decided this:

Barbelith is not dead. Barbelith is not dying.
What Barbelith is, is Just Another Message Board.

And I think it's always been that. And if, for a while, it seemed to me that it was something else, something more—well, that was me. That was an error of perception on my part.

Knowing that, I can enjoy it for what it is, rather than grieve for what my one-time idea of what it could be.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
16:01 / 21.11.07
Which makes me want to ask: How was it ever different from Any Other Board? Was it the structure, or lack thereof? The posters? The topics? The design?

As this is the only board I've ever bothered with, I'm genuinely curious to hear what people think separates BRBLTH from other places.
 
 
grant
16:14 / 21.11.07
Well, every message board is unique, and this one is (as one friend puts it) more polite than others.

But yes, I'm with Mr. Fear on this one. I think what Barbelith has always seemed to have is this vast store of potential that's never quite realized. It *could* be one thing or another if only something apparently simple could be gotten out of the way. But that thing seems to be different for different people, or is at least not as simple as it appears.
 
 
Lama glama
18:43 / 21.11.07
What makes Barbelith different from other message boards, is that discussion actually takes place. People take the time to read each other's posts and actually discuss what has been said in them. Some of the other boards I used to frequent comprised of posts that were generally monologues by individual posters. Nobody talked to each other, they just continued spewing their stream of drivel while ignoring what other posters have said.

It's true that happens here sometimes, but it's rarer than elsewhere.
 
 
Spaniel
18:49 / 21.11.07
I am in agreement with Jack Fear.

I certainly don't remember a time when the board was populated by a better bunch of people*. I remember a time when some other quality folk posted around here, sure, but that's about it.

*Barbelith has always had it's twunces, and I reckon there are actually fewer around today than there were three or four years ago.
 
 
Blake Head
19:27 / 21.11.07
I don’t know if courtesy is exactly what sets it apart, though that’s there. When I first found the place and then since I joined the thing that stood out for me, beyond the range and quality of the discussion, was the sense of community. The unique qualities of that community, as opposed to any other, and how they are experienced by different members, are probably difficult to adequately describe, but are presumably based on the same basic features communities generally are constructed through: trust, mutual respect, shared interests, commitment to the community as a whole. I think because it’s based on the idea of a community with shared values engaged with different topics, rather than a single focused area with otherwise dissimilar members, it helped to foster the basic feeling that the people you were engaging with would be good to go for a pint with, or have round for tea, or put up for the night just because they were on Barbelith. There’s a generosity there (which Barbe-meets in my experience were a great example of) that’s different to that present between individuals with more established relationships, and it’s not something I’ve felt from other boards, though presumably it exists to some degree.

Maybe it’s an over-serious way of looking at it, but for me participating in Barbelith as a community appears to involve both the sort of active engagement in the conversations of the moment, the something to do over your lunch hour side of things, and the ongoing attempts to build substantial discussions that would develop over time. The sense that, by contributing something of value, because of the varied interests on the board even if something was forgotten quickly or wasn’t immediately taken up that incrementally one was adding value to the community as a whole, because someone out there would appreciate it. There was an exchange of information that was based on indirect reciprocation, but that you still felt bound by. Obviously sometimes those aspects are mixed. If I’m right, that sense of “building for the future” isn’t as present in other, more immediate boards, and that clearly shapes the way their members contribute to them. I’d agree about the sense of untapped potential being continuous, but I think that holding to a standard, even if it’s an artificially constructed and impossible to reach one, has a lot of positive benefits, not least of which is the exhilaration when one then two then three good posts blossoms into a fantastic conversation.

I don’t mind Barbelith being slow food, but some of us are starving here, and the board’s functionality is such that our jaws are wired shut. Without speaking for anyone else’s enjoyment of the board, I don’t think acknowledging that Barbelith is fundamentally just a message board, because of course that’s true, changes the fact that it isn’t a static environment, and the type of things that it’s good for as just another message board are also changing, and people will inevitably respond to that in variety of ways. When so many members have left or gone quiet, and when the activity in the important areas feels so minimal, conversations falter or don’t even begin, and consequently there grows a sense of futility about contributing when it feels like there will inevitably be few people left interested in reading. There’s still good stuff being posted here, but the lack of the same variety caused by the staleness of the membership means that the idiots attract a proportionately much greater attention, people get distracted more easily, it’s harder to get threads started and when they do there’s not the same plurality of viewpoints. Even if there are other or better message boards out there, I don’t think it’s surprising that people are despondent about the state of the board and their expectations of it have become deformed, because they’ve invested their energy here and in the sense of community as a whole, and there’s no reason for that to be transient other than through neglect and a breakdown in the functionality.

Anyway, whatever happens you’re all invited round for a cheese sandwich.



Not all at once though.
 
 
Blake Head
19:38 / 21.11.07
Ah. I may have just spewed a monologue. Blake = SHAME

One of the things I meant to add though, was that in a board with a thriving membership, there's more room for people to have different interests, as long as there's enough interested people to get dialogues going. You don't have to like the same things as other people, you don't have to like the way other people write, because people naturally gravitate towards one another based on those things. When there are enough people, and suitable functionality to root out the weeds, a variety of good things grow. Sometimes the board at present feels like people are rubbing up against each other* because (it feels like) they've got nowhere else to go, and unsatisfying compromises are made about the types of things worth discussing and the standards of discussion worth upholding.

* And not even in a good way.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:33 / 21.11.07
I may have just spewed a monologue.

Hey, as monologues go, it wasn't a bad one, though.
 
 
Closed for Business Time
20:41 / 21.11.07
No, it was pretty damn good. Also many thanks to grant, Llama and Vision for good points.
 
 
HCE
20:53 / 21.11.07
the basic feeling that the people you were engaging with would be good to go for a pint with, or have round for tea, or put up for the night just because they were on Barbelith. There’s a generosity there (which Barbe-meets in my experience were a great example of) that’s different to that present between individuals with more established relationships, and it’s not something I’ve felt from other boards, though presumably it exists to some degree.

Every message board is like that for me. There are people you don't care for, some you like, you meet and give each other cds or tshirts or whatever, visit each other's cities and sleep on the couch. Then after a while you grow to almost hate the place. I think it's just a normal life cycle.
 
 
Jack Fear
01:18 / 22.11.07
Zactly. The place is incidental. The place is just a place. The people are the people, and will remain so even in different contexts.
 
 
Papess
02:55 / 22.11.07
I don’t think acknowledging that Barbelith is fundamentally just a message board, because of course that’s true, changes the fact that it isn’t a static environment, and the type of things that it’s good for as just another message board are also changing, - Thanks Blake Head.

Of course it is about the people!

Saying that Barbelith is "just a message board", is like saying "Those bunch of buildings over there are just another city." Referring to "Barbelith" is a way of referring to all that implies - the relationships, the projects, the shared principles, the exchange of ideas - that all came out of Barbelith just being "another message board". So yes, while it is "just another message board", take that one element out of the equation, and the rest of it seems a little out of place.
 
 
HCE
21:06 / 26.11.07
But I didn't say it was just another message board. There are a lot fewer fart jokes here. Here, more than two people will object if you use racist language. I said that making connections is not something that happens only on Barbelith. Community is not unique to Barbelith.
 
 
Blake Head
22:15 / 27.11.07
Well, of course it’s not. And I’m glad that you’ve made connections elsewhere brb, I wasn’t trying to say Barbelith was special in that sense. What I was trying to suggest was that there was something invested in the idea of being a member of Barbelith, that you could count on the members to, for example, not to make crass jokes or use racist language… Ok, maybe the latter at least. The idea that - in the majority of cases - someone posting here was probably a good egg, simply by dint of finding the place and connecting with it enough to join. Possibly that’s largely eroded now I don’t know. I don’t think it’s unique, but I dothink a strong sense of a positive community is a good thing, and that as Medulla says the whole network of relationships that implies isn’t an unimportant factor, and it’s one different to my experience of the communities on the much larger social networking sites where I don’t think you can take much for granted purely from the fact of membership, or for more subject specific sites where what you can assume is usually that your fellow board members share an interest in poker, or Dawn of War, or whatever…
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:24 / 11.01.08
I certainly don't remember a time when the board was populated by a better bunch of people

Who do you think you are kidding, Mr Boboss?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:31 / 03.04.08
The end of Barbelith?

I think it is now, really.

To look on the bright side, it's been great over the years - at the particular point when I signed up (when the board was letting anyone in, back in 2004) I was at something of a loss as to what to do with myself. All my friends were getting married for the third time, I was alone in the facilities. So, cheers, Barbelith. I doubt I'm alone.

But now, what's the point of continuing? Active membership's a fraction of what it used to be, what remains of it is stupidly aggressive (I do hold my, actually both, hands up in all this) but there's nothing to be done about it now.

Liminal Nation sounds like a fab idea for some, and the other new board might be good too; for others there're other places, I guess.

But really, if the end of term is in sight for everyone ('our sentence Is up!!!) etc, can't we all just, y'know, chuck our schoolbags in the air and celebrate the good times?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:47 / 05.04.08
I prefer to think of it as that time when Ziggy managed to get on the last bus out of Grange Hill and leave Mauler McCaul on the kerb spitting with impotent fury.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
09:56 / 05.04.08
But who's on the bus and who isn't?

My sympathies were with Mauler, and Gripper Stebson, always.

I may as well say that I am in fact Morrissey.

The person that some of you have met is just some guy that I pay a little (only just, really) over minimum wage to cover me, to be a sort of beard, while I further my nebulous agenda on the internet.
 
 
Feverfew
16:06 / 05.04.08
Your sympathies are always with anyone called 'Gripper'.

More seriously, though, if this is the end, shouldn't one of us be posting hilarious pictures comparing Barbelith to BBC sitcoms of the seventies and eighties? That gets me every time, that does. It. Cracks. Me. Up.
 
 
Lama glama
22:18 / 06.04.08
It does feel a little like the end. I've never been at a forum apocalypse before, so it should at least be interesting. In previous years the Doctor Who topic would have an explosion of posts after the first episode, whereas this year it only had a bare handful. I suppose I can't complain. It's not like I'm striving to revitalise the place..
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:51 / 07.04.08
I have an idea - theoretically, we ban now by me or Randy (largely absent) sending Tom somebody's user number. How about if I just sort of progressively prune? Would anyone, at this point, object? I feel one could make a quiet but pleasant place...
 
 
Closed for Business Time
15:18 / 07.04.08
Have you got a list of candidates handy?
On second thought, who wouldn't be pruned?

Please to keep Supersister? She's so damned entertaining.
 
  

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