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Is that it, then?

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
20:43 / 12.09.07
Are you going by board traffic as an indicator of desired board traffic? Or are you exercising your much vaunted mental mentalism?

Well, I read every application email. People say that they want to join because of the Invisibles. They are given logins. They do not subsequently discuss the Invisibles. Often, they do not say anything at all. Maybe they are driven off by the terrible putdowns that people who just ask a couple of questions about the Invisibles apparently face on your Barbelith. Honestly, I think that the pause between application and actually getting a login is probably a big factor in this drop-off - more than the fear of people being mean in response to their questions about The Invisibles.

I actually don't see much in the way of that meanness, anyway. Could you point some out, perhaps starting with this currently-live thread? It's not terribly inspiring in content, but I don't see anyone getting eviscerated. It's a current discussion of the Invisibles. Or this one. Or pick up the annotations threads.

However, this sort of nonsense:

Whatever floats your flirty boat, I guess. But why would I lie? and why would you make shit up about me?
I'll assume it was intended to be banter from a friend, rather than aggresion from an interlocutor who wishes to put me down. Certainly, I am guilty of trying to be funny and confusing the issue, and levity I have thrown your way has irked you before. I guess that would suggest we never were that good friends, eh?


Just makes you sound like paranoidwriter.

So, we appear now to have penetrated to the heart of Life Critic's intention.

I am remarking on a trend I have noticed, and I am doing so in the hopes that it will resonate with some people and be discussed, hopefully resulting in a better understanding of why this website has found it's pools of discussion drying up and becoming old and stale.

a) Is anyone resonating with the idea that the problem with Barbelith is that everyone is mean to people who turn up with one or two questions about the Invisibles - and not, as Lfie Critic actually wrote, Grant Morrison?
b) Is anyone actually prepared to substantiate this trend that resonates with them with examples?
c) Does anyone share Life Critic's unevidenced conviction that talking about the Invisibles makes one unwelcome, that this explains the absence of people talking about the Invisibles and that a dearth of people talking about the Invisibles is what is making Barbelith old and stale, rather than, for example, a broken banning system, a broken applications system, a history of aggressive trolling and a name that attracts people primarily who want to talk about subsections of the subject matter of only two of the fora?
 
 
Blake Head
21:32 / 12.09.07
I mean, to be fair Life Critic, going over the threads from that point in time, there was remarkably little significant criticism of the idea in the Proposal thread, it’s not until page 4 that Mordant / Aunt Beast registers a personal objection on the grounds of duplication of material / attracting people who see Barbelith as just an Invisibles site that there’s actual substantial negativity. There are, no doubt, small negative comments peppered around that thread and elsewhere around the board at that time, but what does that tell us? That the level of interest was not sufficient to overcome a certain amount of negativity and the high expectations / indifference of other members of the board, that being: not that high.

Once the idea of issue by issue discussion threads was chucked, the discussion that did take place seemed (to me) to be quite good for a bit, then it petered out, several people who said they would contribute didn’t, and then it stopped after loss of interest. It’s not the end of the world, and probably not a sign of the end of the board either. If anything, I’d take it less as the discussion being closed down by senior members than the conditions just not being right for an actual conversation to flourish. Given the number of other worthy threads that don’t so much as start, having two pages of reasonable discussion on the Invisibles could be seen more generously as rather good going, and personally I’m more concerned that there’s a deficiency in numbers / interest / attention span to make it worthwhile attempting to discuss certain other topics, but as that’s more subjective with regards to what individuals actually want to discuss, so it’s probably not really a Policy issue.

If there’s not sufficient interest on at topic (or if they’re addressed in certain ways or at the wrong time) to actually generate discussion, conversation, actual back and forth, then those issues won’t translate into interesting. thriving threads, and while that might affect us all as individuals (and I know it gets to me) it’s probably just one of the things that we need to adjust to. To go back to your question of why there were insufficient contributors, that there was an unfavourable reaction from certain quarters of the board to the recent Invisibles thread should resonate with anyone who was reading the board with their eyes at the time – but unless more people are prepared to come forward and say “I was made to feel unwelcome” and by what, which given the fact you seem to be talking about a general low-level degree of animosity towards the idea would seem difficult to substantiate, then it seems more likely that there were insufficient, under-motivated contributors because, well, there were insufficient, under-motivated contributors, and nobody else was that bothered. That was just how the board was. If I’m simplifying I apologise, but I’m in a bit of a rush tonight and honestly I don’t see what the drama is.

Just as a small note, I don’t wish to insult your mighty past observing magicks CHaus Majickian, but from memory it wasn’t actually intended purely as a re-annotation thread, but rather as one part-annotation one part re-reading and discussion. It’s a difference that might not actually have been borne out by the actual thread, but however imperfect it probably seemed a significant distinction at the time, there actually being at least some genuine desire to discuss the book on the board and the experience of re-reading it.
 
 
unbecoming
21:45 / 12.09.07
well, as a new member and someone who did contribute to those threads a bit, i have to say that i didn't really feel that the discussion was closed down by more long term members.

I also think that any objections to the threads were noted fairly and in the spirit of communication.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:54 / 12.09.07
The search function being what it is, and "The Invisibles" throwing up a lot of responses, can someone link to the thread in question?

It's just that I have this theory that most of the contributors are actually still here. And didn't, y'know, leave because they were mocked for discussing The Invisibles.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:00 / 12.09.07
What the shitting FUCK has this got to do with the topic of this thread any longer?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:01 / 12.09.07
Oh, God knows. I lost track a long time ago. Mind you, to get vaguely back on-topic, it's one of the fastest-moving threads we've had in a long time.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:04 / 12.09.07
Or, to put it another way, start properly tying this discussion into the one that was already ongoing in this thread, instead of using it as an excuse to dredge up an argument that was over with some months ago, or start a new thread/bump an old - and relevant - one.

As far as I can tell, this topic had more or less run its course before the current diversion.
 
 
Blake Head
22:05 / 12.09.07
Invisibles Re-read (Vol 1)

Invisibles Re-read Proposal

The second is significantly longer, and there was more at the time somewhere in Policy (and Barbannoy, probably) but I'm not quite that invested. I'll admit I only really skimmed the above two earlier, but they seemed fairly benign.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:05 / 12.09.07
I'm happpy to stand corrected on that one, BH. However:

To go back to your question of why there were insufficient contributors, that there was an unfavourable reaction from certain quarters of the board to the recent Invisibles thread should resonate with anyone who was reading the board with their eyes at the time

I think that you're saying that it is obvious to anyone with eyes that there was an unfavourable reaction from certain quarters to the recent Invisibles threads. Could you provide examples? Interestingly, Life Critic gets in a comment about how people might take the piss:

i'd say set a handful of issues a week to be read, and then a start day for discussion of those issues.
that way folks can do an issue a day or several at once, depending on their schedule. if you get behind you can ignore the thread from wednesday, or whenever you decide the day is.

if your discussion's about teh majeekue in and within the book you should probably have a thread for that angle in the temple, and then one here for the more trad literary critique.
i think you'd get a better spread of answers that way, although i think you might well have to put up with people laughing about your project.

i say fuckem and do what you like with it, but i reckon some might take the piss.


And Magick Johnson also stands up for the wee man against the big, bad, oddly absent bullies:

F) Make sure all those new 'lithers who (apparently) have joined on the basis of their interest in The Invisibles feel welcome vis a vis their contributions. So low-snark, please, and a low level of showboating from high-profile members of the board.

G) Establish a high-snark thread as a home for all those who want to mock Invisi-Extrapolaters, and then eventually merge the Pro- and Anti- threads because GM showed us that the Invisible College and the Outer Church are, like, TEH SAME THING1!!

H) Call time on this 'Let's see if the ol' Hypersigil' thread if it just spirals into 'discussions about discussions'. Really, if the proposed project is to happen, it needs leadership, and needs it soon.


But actual snark doesn't seem to materialise, perhaps thanks these brave men drawing a line in the sand. There is some joking about Boboss' "Comics are for Kids" thread. Concerns are raised about Oddman's plan to have a thread for every issue, because it's a terrible idea. There is discussion of what having sixty threads around on a comic that came out a decade ago would do the the Comic Books forum and to Barbelith as a whole. Unfavourable? Well, I suppose it depends on how you want to define favour, but looking back on that thread it seemed that a couple of people were spoiling for a fight that did not materialise, basically.
I am more inclined towards Hester's reading, myself.
 
 
Blake Head
22:08 / 12.09.07
Apologies, cross-posted there. No actual desire to dredge up past arguments from here, just disagreeing with Life Critic that the current issue as he outlined it actually has anything to do with the demise of the board, as above.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:12 / 12.09.07
What the shitting FUCK has this got to do with the topic of this thread any longer?

Well, as far as I can tell Life Critic thinks that the reason Barbelith is on the critical list (although it seems to be a bit more lively, lately) is that people who want to talk about the Invisibles are somehow being discouraged or dissuaded from doing so. Personally, I think that this is a) at best unevidenced and at worst delusional and b) by no means the greatest threat to Barbelith - less of a threat, for example, than the Invisibles/Chaos Majick monolith(1) of the name, and the way it leads to cultural homogeneity in the new applicants.

I think that's the tie-in, such as it is.

(1) This is also the name of my winky.
 
 
Blake Head
22:14 / 12.09.07
(C)Haus: as in, signalled they weren't interested in contributing, signalled they thought the issue was as dry as dust, signalled that it gave the wrong idea about the board. They probably didn't actually signal, they probably typed at length in Policy or Conversation, but as this discussion is being shooed away from this thread, I'm going to show bad form and not go hunting examples and rely on my memory for the moment instead, as I don't think it's particularly controversial.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:24 / 12.09.07
I don't recall that, but fair enough. I'm more interested by the preemptive decisions that there would be snark and mockery - what you clarify here as "unfavourable" being quite different, and I think we both agree on the allowable and even constructive side of the line. That probably doesn't justify inlusion in a thread about Barbelith's possible demise, however - it's a fact of life rather than a fact of death.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
06:53 / 13.09.07
I will certainly cop to noting my reservations about the idea of a new Invisibles reader thread, although most of that was about the idea of having one thread per issue. I don't recall being excessively snarky, just noting in Policy and in Comics that a) discussion eg in older threads (and on the wiki) already existed at the time, and b) my own discomfort about anything which would make the board look more like a a GM fansite than it already does. Looking back I don't believe that the relative inactivty of those threads is the fault of teh meen, rather that people got interested in something else and wandered off.

I will also cop to generalised snark directed at the kind of poster who joins up looking for an Invisibles fansite, and then--and this is the important part--acts like a total cock because ze didn't get one. I don't have an issue with people who've come for the Grant and stayed for the pie, or with the odd thread discussing his comics. What I resent and am quite happy to mock relentlessly is the "What Would G-Moz Do?" nonsense, the cries of "Grant would look ill upon this!" (where "this" is almost always a poster being pulled up on bigotry or other misconduct).

I think that the GM-fansite perception is real and brings with it a fair few problems esp in the Temple. Remember a certain poster's furious accusations of "disinformation" in the Temple, on the grounds that people were getting their beastly sticky spiritual beliefs on the nice clean magic? Or any one of the ultra-basic "how do I shot sigil?" questions we've had over the years which all unaccountably need their own threads? I'm sure that were I inclined I could dig out a fair bit of snark from those who've joined the board in a quest for an interactive Invisible Ink and then gone off into one a bit when we failed to provide such, especially our continuing and unaccountable faliure to recognise that charjin teh squiggle is the apotheosis of Western magical thought.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:42 / 13.09.07
So, to round this off.

1) Are people who are interested in asking a question about the Invisibles regularyl subjected to monstering on Barbelith?

No.

2) If they are, is this a cause of the board's likely demise?

No.

3) Are people who want Barbelith to be a fan site, and become aggressive and upset when it does not behave like one, often subjected to criticism?

Yes.

4) Is this a cause of the board's likely demise?

No.

For an example of the kind of behavior that is not encouraged, see here. Continuing to discourage such behaviour seems to me to be a desirable outcome for Barbelith. Better a clear stream than a muddy torrent.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:56 / 13.09.07
Oh but that was so sweet and lovely. How could that make anyone mad.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:11 / 13.09.07
Ok, that was adorable. But like that.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
13:31 / 13.09.07
I'd forgotten just what a source of epic lulz that thread was.
 
 
Char Aina
16:09 / 13.09.07
I'm glad nobody else has ever felt conversation regarding The Invisibles would be unwelcome. That suggests that I'm under a false impression, or at least a minority one. Perhaps a lack of self belief on my part caused me to imagine that the board was unwilling to hear questions they had heard asked before, or perhaps one or two people made loud noises in that direction and I took that as representative when i shouldn't have. Perhaps the folk who felt the site was unwelcoming on that score have long since left, or perhaps they too were assessng the attitude of the site inaccurately.

I don't currently have time to trawl for references, unfortunately, so I won't be able to asses it much further. Perhaps when I'm less busy or have regular internet access again I will. Until such time, I think I will take one member's advice and avoid discusing anything other than cultural product on the visible Barbelith.

Thanks for your time, haus.
 
 
Olulabelle
16:14 / 13.09.07
I don't think anyone's saying "nobody else has ever felt conversation regarding The Invisibles would be unwelcome." It's just not the key reason for the board's decline. The key reason for the board's decline was that it was quite often hijacked by opinionated arseholes that no-one could get rid of and so lots of people stopped posting or left. Now things have changed.
 
 
Char Aina
17:03 / 13.09.07
Ah, right. I was confused there, because I don't believe that it is spoecifically a lack of invisbles chat that has killed teh board. I think I described it as a symptom and I certainly never intended to suggest that, for example, ganesh left to find somewhere to delve into jack's relationship with fanny.
Curse this hideous spech impediment, and all that.

I also disagree that the board's ocasional troll killed it; other sites have recurring trolls too. Our lack of efficient banning played a part, but I don't think we can entirely (or even largely)blame the boards decline on that.
I certainly didn't take time off due to exasperation with trolls, and I know of at least three other members who post less or not at all these days who have never mentioned them as a reason.

As I said earlier, I think the lack of new blood was a major factor. That could be atributed to trolls, as the closing of the gates was in reaction to one, but I think a stagnant board has done more to lose us members than any troll conflict.

I don't want to play down anyone's experiences. Stagnation clearly isn't the whole story. but I am aware that some folks have left for that reason.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
19:39 / 19.11.07
So I guess that's it, then. Core problems haven't been addressed properly, everybody's even more despondent about the state of play than they were before. Superb.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:32 / 19.11.07
Well, it's pretty much steady state. The banning functionality now exists, but has a number of technical issues that may or may not be addressed. Outside a few "hot" topics, often sustained by a small number of people, turnover is very low. The Policy is being bindweeded. This state of affairs can probably continue for as long as the technology keeps working, especially as the expectation levels are probably getting lower.

There are actually a good three interesting threads iin Head Shop at the moment, and I'm a bit narked that I don't have time or resources to get involved in them at present. Secret of comedy.

Tom is relocating at present, and I imagine will be very busy for a while to come; it probably isn't realistic to expect any further alterations in the near future.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:44 / 19.11.07
It's only steady state in the sense of steady decline, surely: the general turnover of the board is ever slower, and the long-term/formerly prolific/high-profile posters continue to depart (Tryphena Sparx the latest official one, but others continue to simply dim the lights discretely rather than announce they're switching off). There's the odd conversation about the Punisher or The Wire that's worth having, but all I really need is for Boboss and Falconer to get livejournals and I could happily bail.

Personally I'm steeling myself to scramble my password at the end of the year: part of me feels I should just do it now, with no announcement, and avoid self-important reflection; then again, Barbelith has been such a huge part of my life over the years that it's still going to be a wrench, even if I feel I've already stuck around too long.
 
 
Tsuga
23:05 / 19.11.07
Well, christ, if it's that bad, is anyone still interested in the idea of some alternate incarnation a la Olmos or the like? Should those discussions be kicked up again, or are most people too hopeless, jaded and despondent to think that much of anything is worth a try— or even feasible?
 
 
Papess
23:44 / 19.11.07
Yes, it is awful here at Barbelith and you all should shut it down so no else can enjoy it.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
01:34 / 20.11.07
Yes, it is awful here at Barbelith and you all should shut it down so no else can enjoy it.

See, this has been my point for ages... who gets to decide if it's dead, other than Tom? People were saying a fucking year ago "we" should shut the place down... I'm pretty sure a lot of people have got a lot out of it in that time.

Personally, I think if it was EASIER TO JOIN, then the party may carry on for longer. But that's just me.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
04:56 / 20.11.07
On Final Barbelith has been such a huge part of my life over the years that it's still going to be a wrench, even if I feel I've already stuck around too long.

Same here. I'm not sure when I'll go but if I'm still here in six months time and Tom hasn't made changes to the way the board works then you have my permission to track me down and shoot me through the kneecaps.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:05 / 20.11.07
To cover these points in turn:

- Some of us never stopped thinking that evacuation was the most plausible plan.

- I'm not suggesting this board be shut down: I'm sure there will continue to be a place for people to wonder whether a bug on a camera lens is actually teh unexplained phenomenumnum!?11?23

- I'm not interested in having the "is it really in a bad way?" argument again: at this point the state of the board is either self-evident or never will be.

- Kneecapping is cruel: I promise a clean, humane headshot.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:20 / 20.11.07
I think I had a brief hope a couple of months ago that Barbelith might revive, but I've wanted an alternative Barbelith for quite some time now and just keep hoping that there will be enough people interested and motivated to make it happen.
 
 
jamesPD
11:37 / 20.11.07
What was the name of the chap that was developing a new implementation of the board? I've done a few quick Googles, but can't find his original announcement post. Does anyone have an update on how he's doing?
 
 
Bamba
11:53 / 20.11.07
What was the name of the chap that was developing a new implementation of the board? I've done a few quick Googles, but can't find his original announcement post. Does anyone have an update on how he's doing?

Last word from him was here.
 
 
Papess
12:08 / 20.11.07
a bug on a camera lens is actually teh unexplained phenomenumnum!?11?23

,
That was so uncalled for.

Flyboy, what the fuck did I ever do to you? You post around this board sometimes interesting stuff. However, you can also be a pompous ass. You want to bully me and ridicule me because I don't see a fucking bug? Why don't you go and find another bloody playground to kick sand in people's face then, okay?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:55 / 20.11.07
Oh, God. Could we not waste whatever time is left us on this Earth doing that?
 
 
Papess
13:02 / 20.11.07
Can you be more specific, Haus?
 
  

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