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Is that it, then?

 
  

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Seth
05:34 / 26.08.07
Over the few months this place has slowed right down, but the extent to which this has accelerated over the last couple of weeks has been very interesting. When there's barely a post to Film, TV and Theatre for a whole twenty four hour period it seems quite a sign, as if someone has already let off a signal and things are wrapping up.

Is there a place that a majority of people have gone to or are intending to go? What's to become of this place? Should we be thinking about saving our favourite threads and then moving discussion elsewhere?

And if this Barbelith is seeing a large exodus, what would people like to do here in the last days? We we fade out, or do we have a send off?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
07:30 / 26.08.07
Well, Olmos (nee. Paleface) is now working on something, it's a matter of seeing, if that can work, whether the people that don't post here so much or at all, would be interested in joining that, when it gets going.

But I think it's people leaving combined with the summer slowdown, even if the weather has been poo over here.

But yes, all the fora are pretty much dead now, except for Comics and Conversation (which are pretty interchangeable and often seem to be the same people arguing over the same topics in both) and occasional sputterings in the Switchboard.
 
 
iamus
08:10 / 26.08.07
I love you, Barbelith.

You're a very cool thing.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
11:18 / 26.08.07
Some fora are becoming painfully slow, contributing to a general feeling of malaise around the board. The reasons, as far as I can see, are different for every fora:

Headshop and Swtichboard: These are both fora where I think there aren't enough conflicting opinions to get a good discussion going. I don't mean a shouting match, I mean reasonable people reasonably disagreeing, going back and forth and, maybe, arriving at a conclusion or at least further questions. So, for example, if the subject were Holocaust denial, as it has been in the past, only complete ban-worthy shitfucks would be on the 'yay' side, everybody else would be in the 'nay' category and no discussion would result. Before anyone asks, no, I don't have an idea for something that would make a good discussion- if I did it would already be in one of the two fora. This is perhaps something that moving to new forum may sort out. As has been pointed out so, so many times before, the sort of people who end up on Barbelith are often people familiar with the work of Grunt Morrisberg, and they tend to be a fairly homogeneous lot in many ways in terms of race, class, education, politics, religion, lifestyle. This means that when we discuss Islam and Islamophobia we have no Muslim voices to learn from.
Secondly, discussion of philosophy or politics at a level above 'BU$$$H SUX IRAQ WAS ALL ABOUT THE OILS OPEN YR EYES SHEEPLE!!1!111!!52!' you need knowledge and, in the case of philosophy, a specialized vocabulary that most people just don't have. This means that board members who have that knowledge and vocabulary are having to slow down for those who don't and those without a degree or higher in a humanities subject etc. feel left out.
The trouble here, as you've probably identified already, is that the solving one problem may make the other proportionately worse. Introducing more diversity means a greater range of opinion, but it could also mean a disparity between people with different spheres of knowledge- the opinion of an Evangelical Christian would be helpful in discussing religion in contemporary America, but ze might feel left out if Theory types bring Zizek or Badiou into the conversation. Conversely, said Theory types may think a discussion of contemporary Christianity would benefit from introducing ideas from Zizek's The Puppet and the Dwarf but bite their tongues out of fear of alienating people.

Lab: Again, there are people who have extensive knowledge of science and others, like myself, with little knowledge beyond A Brief History of Time and the occasional copy of New Scientist. Plus, there's the problem of knowing what exactly should go there- if you hear about some really awesome invention does it warrant and thread? Where's the discussion beyond 'wow, cool'?

Temple: I don't visit the Temple, having fell out of love with the whole Magick thing, which is still very much entrenched in the Temple's culture. Maybe somebody with more experience in the Temple could say a little about how this forum is going.

Arts, Fashion and Design: The problem here is not so much that there aren't any 'right answers' when discussing AF&D, but that the opinions we could possibly express on anything from Ugg boots to abstract expression are based so much in the 'gut' that its hard to get beyond that. If we're discussing the Israel/Palestine situation or genetically modified foods we can get into the nitty-gritty of political history or consumer choice. With Uggs you have either 'I like them' or 'I don't like them', with a lot of contemporary art you have the old and tired 'That pile of bricks isn't art!'/'Yes it is!' arguments.

Books: Here's one I can't figure out. The books forum seems to be crazy-slow without any particular reason that it should be. Could it be simply because books take much longer to read than TV shows, films and comics?

Creation and Gathering: Like Temple, I don't frequent these forums much, so somebody more experienced should probably comment.

I've said it before and I'll say it again- the name 'Barbelith' is an albatross around our necks when it comes to moving this board forward. Same goes for the various functionality issues detailed in other Policy threads. We aren't getting enough new blood to keep the board vital at the moment. If Paleface comes through with a great new board with all the functionality we need then I've found a new God.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:42 / 26.08.07
Maybe somebody with more experience in the Temple could say a little about how this forum is going.

Nothing repeatable in polite company, I'm afraid.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:07 / 26.08.07
Oh fuck it.

You know what? The Temple is increasingly a waste of fucking time. Any interesting discussion there has a better than 70% chance of going down the fucking tubes as soon as someone feels their veiws might be being challeneged. I feel like anything I have to contribute has to be dumbed the fuck down and couched in the most cringing, apologetic baby-talk because if it isn't someone's going to take offence. If you try to write about anything that isn't based around yet another variant of charging teh sigil or a basic meditation practice, people act as if you've pissed on their chips. If you so much as hint that it might be possible for one person to have a more sophisticated, deeper or functional practice than another, you're an evil elitist bastard. (Why? Why is magic, alone of all skillsets, supposed to be immune from having a learning curve?) Starting discussions on subjects that interest me doesn't help because what I'm up to these days is counter to what people who come here looking for an interactive version of Invisible Ink think constitutes magic.

Partly this is my problem--I've just moved on from where I was to the point where I'm not being stimulated by the Temple anymore in the way that I once was, so the tradeoff between joy and and the genuine pain and anger I take away from some of those exchanges isn't there anymore. But I do feel that there are some real problems with the forum which I don't know how to solve--and yeah, it doesn't help that we are called Barbelith.
 
 
jentacular dreams
13:31 / 26.08.07
Thought it worth mentioning that someone has linked to this discussion on the barbelith wikipedia page. And, perhaps more worryingly, Jack Denfield no longer seems to be king of barbelith (this could explain so much).

So, what's to be done? It's obvious that the slower the board becomes, the faster members will leave, and the slower new members will join. We risk facing a period of terminal decline which could mean that by the time a new board is ready, there's no-one left to move over.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:39 / 26.08.07
There's enclaves over on Lievjernal and a couple other places. Word will get out, never fear.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:55 / 26.08.07
Lab: You know, I don't really understand why we even have a lab forum given the general anti-science and anti-empiricism bent of the board.
 
 
jentacular dreams
13:58 / 26.08.07
Presuming that the individuals in question aren't settled in their new electronic homes. It's equally possible that they may come to the new site and not feel as comfortable there as they did in barbelith's prime. I'm just wary of underestimating people's ability to romanticise the past (especially if something like that contributed to the disillusionment which led to their leaving in the first place).
 
 
jentacular dreams
14:03 / 26.08.07
I see your point. If the lab is percieved as not encompassing scientific ethics (e.g. should we terraform new planets thread), then it cuts down on potential discussion a hell of a lot.

Perhaps the anti-science/empiricalism bent is itself worth discussion?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:38 / 26.08.07
One thing we can do is keep the Wiki updated with news of any new projects in the offing that regulars round here would like to be a part of.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
15:46 / 26.08.07
Can they really be part of it though? As I understand Paleface's Barbelith 2.0 is basically a solo venture. If we could get a team together with coding skills and make sure they each have a job (Design, distributed moderation, banning etc.) then that would speed things up, but it's Paleface's call.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:30 / 26.08.07
By "part of" I meant as in "part of a new online community" in the sense that we're currently part of Barbelith. I agree though, one of the big problems here has been the fact that the posters have been increasingly unable to affect anything.
 
 
matthew.
20:38 / 26.08.07
I check Barbelith maybe once a day now and I barely post. I used to live on Barbelith. For me, it's a combination of a bunch of things:
(a) major life changes afoot,
(b) disinterest in 80 percent of topics across the board,
(c) the lack of posting members,
(d) the hemorrhaging of longterm members and finally,
(e) the consistent and boring bickering between members such as Mathlete and Haus.

My major problem is one that many longterm posters are leaving over. We're treading the same well worn ground with absolutely no progression. Tom Coates is a non-entity and that's one factor in a lack of growth.

I complained about Barbelith a year ago in the death of Barbelith thread and my naivety smelled like "oh let's do try, shall we?"

I don't know if it's worth it. I have begun my hunt for the replacement for Barbelith. It's like I'm shopping for a new puppy to play with and to grow with.
 
 
Seth
21:23 / 26.08.07
I'm really not happy about Tom being described as a non-entity. He kept a little home for all us difficult and opinionated souls. He did it for a long time, and for a long time he did it very well indeed. If this is the end of the board as we know it then I'll be very cross with anyone who displays anything less than gratitude.

The loss of Barbelith is just one of those things. It was always going to happen eventually. Quit whining and adapt, eh? Accept it and move on.

Still, it feels like a small, lonely place right now. A couple of years back I was the last person to live in the family home, the home I grew up in. I packed all Mum and Dad's possessions up and into moving vans. They were living hundreds (in Dad's case, thousands) of miles away by that point. The whole house was empty, but I refused to have my last memories of that house be of a sad echo of what it used to be. So I moved all the furniture to the three or four rooms that I would be using and I lived in those. I made it a little home for myself and had a happy time there before I eventually left myself.

So why don't we celebrate it while it's still here? Have a sending off party, direct each other to the best moments, have a couple more insane conversations about stuff we love and see what happens next.

I'll feel robbed if the last ever post isn't Flyboy swinging his sword to slay the dragon.
 
 
Seth
21:31 / 26.08.07
For starters, I'm amazed that no one has commented on me accidentally typing *we we* in the first post.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:23 / 26.08.07
What he said.

...erm, "wee wee".
 
 
Spatula Clarke
23:04 / 26.08.07
If everybody suddenly starts posting for the sending-off party, having previously not been bloody bothered to try and lift the board out of the slump it's been in for ages, I think I might go a little bit ballistic.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:25 / 27.08.07
Still, hopefully the next board, if there is one, will have mechanisms for removing or dealing with socially inept and/or unproductive members without the need for "bickering", and we can all have more time to explain the difference between disinterest and uninterest.

I'm not entirely sure what this thread is for, Seth. Is to plan some sort of memorial ceremony for Barbelith?
 
 
matthew.
01:49 / 27.08.07
And point proven. Goodbye Barbelith.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
02:22 / 27.08.07
Cheerio, matthew. I hope you find your next board more in line with your ideals, although, as has been pointed out before, a board more generally kind and sensitive to tender egos is unlikely to be found outside, perhaps, the Neopets fan community.

One question is what one does with a new board, or indeed with this one. Barbelith as a community used to be fairly varied. Most of the people who want to join these days, or at least most of the people who are prepared to go through the process of joining, are interested in the community because of its reputation as a place for comic books and magic to be discussed at a higher level than most other places on the Internet. However, that does not necessarily translate to a higher level of discussion on anything else. I have increasingly found posting to Switchboard and Head Shop, which were previously my fora of choice, less inviting because the chances of any very productive discussion coming out of such posting seems to have been progressively diminishing. This is connected, I think, to posters leaving and not being adequately replaced, which is partly, again, about the way we let people, the way we deal with people once in - a serious concern, .matthew's taking it badly aside - and the way we advertise for members.

Since we have basically created temporary fixes for permanent problems on Barbelith for some time, and since we know that the problems will not be eligible for permanent fixes, even if we could agree on what those fixes are to be, it seems that we have to try to fly and then to land it as best we can. So, again, is this thread about organising that landing?
 
 
Papess
02:43 / 27.08.07
...a board more generally kind and sensitive to tender egos is unlikely to be found outside, perhaps, the Neopets fan community.

My son belongs to that community and it's all vicious, nasty pre-text!
 
 
Leigh Monster loses its cool
07:27 / 27.08.07

Aw barbelith.

Entreat me not to leave thee, or to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: thy people shall be my people...
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
08:57 / 27.08.07
Maybe we should PM Epop and get him to unfrazzle the connectors.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
11:35 / 27.08.07
Is Tom reading this thread? Because he posted to his blog today, which suggests he's online, and online regularly.

What do you think Tom?

I, personally, wasn't around Barbelith when you were posting daily, and, from the old threads I've read, putting a heck of a lot of physical and emotional energy, not to mention cash, into the board, dealing with really nasty trolling and all the rest of it.

I've had a look around, and can't find threads where Tom has specifically articulated why he doesn't want to share moderation responsibilities more widely (i.e. banning powers), though I've seen some talk of super-mods back in the day. I have seen Tom's upward trajectory career-wise, meaning he's had less and less time to get involved here.

So, I'm interested - if Paleface's board v2 gets off the ground, and a majority of regular posters migrate there, how does Tom feel about that? What'll happen to this place? Will Paleface have the same level of control that Tom currently does, or will Board v2 have several top-level administrators, like nearly every other board out there?

I'd appreciate it if any policy-hounds could point me to the thread where the current situation began, or the reasoning for it is outlined? Is there an overwhelming reason (beyond the simple answer that it's Tom's site, and what he says goes) we could never have a few high-level mods with banning powers, open the board up again and let the chips fall where they may?

Anyone?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:45 / 27.08.07
Is there an overwhelming reason (beyond the simple answer that it's Tom's site, and what he says goes) we could never have a few high-level mods with banning powers, open the board up again and let the chips fall where they may?

Well, the rough answer to this - although I'm afraid I can't point you to a specific thread - is that banning powers are not built into the current Barbelith code - we had a "ban users" button, but it didn't actually ban users, cathartic though pressing it repeatedly may have been. So, the only way to ban a user is to go into the database at the back end of Barbelith and change their password and email address. Tom feels that giving people the keys to the back end is dangerous, because they might break something, and also would give people complete access to everybody's details - email address, private messages and so on. Without recoding Barbelith, there isn't much that can be done about that, and so banning is not an option that is on the table for this incarnation of Barbelith.

I know - a message board with no built-in method of banning people. It seems rather utopian, doesn't it?
 
 
the permuted man
13:57 / 27.08.07
I rarely post but I read Barbelith almost daily. Back when I might have had time to post (maybe 6 or 7 years ago) I didn't really know how to get an account, and once I finally got one, I was pretty intimidated (and still am...).

Barbelith has been the source of a lot of interesting thoughts and development for me, personally, and while I feel I haven't really been able to give anything back, maybe my appreciation is something? At any rate, whatever happens next, I hope I'll at least be able to lurk, as the thought of losing such a valuable resource is disheartening to say the least.
 
 
Happy Dave Has Left
14:04 / 27.08.07
Haus, that's really interesting, and explains a lot. Fundamentally, unless Tom got someone he trusted to build in that functionality, or did it himself, the board itself is fatally flawed, because there's no mechanism to deal with deliberate shit-stirring.

Yes, you're right, it is utopian. And utopias nearly always fail - that's their defining characteristic.
 
 
grant
14:21 / 27.08.07
Does the United States count?

Funnily, I'm reading this thread on the day that's the first day of classes. Summer's over today, at least as far as I'm concerned.
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
16:12 / 27.08.07
6 months ago when I registered, I would have balked at the suggestion that "that's it, then," particularly as there was already thread from way before my registration date entitled "Is Barbelith Dying?"

But there's no message board if nobody posts anything.

I feel a bit sad. Recently I've stuck my nose in on several threads only to become the last person responding again and again. In fact, the whole experience has been a bit like walking into a party at 5:00am in the morning saying: "Hey folks, where's the fun?" after the police have already carted away 3/4 of the revellers because someone got stabbed.

I think it's exceedingly unlikely that anything like "Barbelith in its prime" is possible by moving to a new board. In fact, I suspect that moving to a new board will completely dissolve what's left of the community. The main problem is that there are boards everywhere all over the Interwebs with far greater functionality than Barbelith that deal with the same subjects that each Barbelith forum does, but in a more specific way. There are film and TV boards all over the place. There are magic boards all over the place. There are comic boards all over the place.

If there isn't an underlying theme binding all the seperate interests together that can be identified and *named*, and it's NOT Grant Morrison or Barbelith, then maybe there's no real point in having the board at all.

I'm less and less convinced that it's *possible* to have a "community" online for its own sake. There's just not enough human feedback.
 
 
Leigh Monster loses its cool
17:55 / 27.08.07

I'm less and less convinced that it's *possible* to have a "community" online for its own sake. There's just not enough human feedback.


But if Conversation is one of the only forums still going, doesn't that suggest that it's the community rather than a single theme that has any sort of lasting power?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:00 / 27.08.07
Well, the interpersonal element is increasingly covered by dedicated social sites like Facebook and Livejournal. People who want to hang out and chat about stuff can fairly easily do so in a selective group of their perceived friends and peers.

What is the unique proposition of Barbelith? As you say, there are other boards devoted to films, to comics, to computer games, with a forum for "general social interaction". If there had been an "official" Invisibles/Grant Morrison fan forum, or a non-bollocks Magical discussion forum, that might have bled off members early, and Barbelith might have either folded, revised its expectations or developed differently. However, this is speculation.

So, what does Barbelith have as a community that makes it unique? Interestingly, it is something that is irrelevant, or unwelcome, to many of its members, I believe - and working this out has taken quite a while. It is a place on the Internet where a broad range of discussions can take place on a wide variety of topics, where membership is at least theoretically open to anyone, but where standards of conversation - in terms of the quality of discussion (to an extent) and the deployment of ideas and language likely to be seen as hurtful or hateful - are kept up, and where that is done generally without recourse to tools such as the editing of content or the expulsion of members without consultation. This may no longer be a desirable aim for many of the members - Barbelith could be so much better if only I was allowed to behave however I liked has in some way or another been a regular complaint here for years. It is possible that there is no longer a need for any such community - when Barbelith started up in the late 90s, there were fewer people regularly online and fewer communities. It may be that this "safe space" element is now no longer required, or no longer desirable for the people who do arrive on Barbelith now, usually through a desire to talk about comics or magic. If so - if this unique property is no longer desirable - then there is no need for a successor Barbelith, really.

It's also worth noting that Olmos' new board, if and when it comes into being, is _not_ intended to be a successor Barbelith, in the sense of being just like Barbelith, but with different technology. Personally, I would like any board set up using that technology to follow that precept of protecting its members and those who read it from hateful and prejudiced language and ideologies in that one corner of the Interweb, and also if at all possible from text speech. I don't enormously mind if there are only fifteen members, as long as those members have interesting things to say and can say them in a respectful environment. I think a part of the slowdown here has been, certainly for me, not being convinced that anyone will respond to a post I make (a) and then not having confidence that any responses will be, for want of a better term, any cop, or not eyebleedy (b).
 
 
Spatula Clarke
18:24 / 27.08.07
The design of Barbelith no longer fits the number of active users. We split Music off from the rest of the Spectacle because doing so was necessary due to the number of music-related threads. Then the same happened with the rest of the Spectacle. And now that lots of people have stopped posting, it looks and feels empty, mainly because of the layout.

This is board software and a board layout meant for more than thirty regularly active members. If we even have that many left.
 
 
This Sunday
18:29 / 27.08.07
I agree with Haus, pretty much.

For my own curious worth, here, I lurked for a long time, because I liked some of the conversation, but didn't want to find myself making idiot arguments whenever something came up that offended me or seemed entirely unnecessarily tactless. I joined when it became a sort of precept of Barbelith that posters were expected to behave themselves on certain fronts most online forums wrote off as being uncontrollable, in terms of unexamined or vitriolic exclusionary or pigeon-holing commentary, be it racially, sexually, or however-else motivated. In terms of not making absurd personal attacks repetitively and unnecessarily.

Expected didn't and does not now mean it always works out that way, and certainly there are some indulgences (and indulgers) allowed, some flare ups that have to be taken in their context, and of course, missteps from even the best of posters. But, even that expectation is still astonishingly unique across the great internetty world.

And there's actually great patience around Barbelith. Right, go on, laugh a bit, but there is. Snark and sharpshooting aside, the majority of the board go out of their way, even in a banning thread, to give benefit of the doubt and hope for growth and change. Maybe some of that's because we don't have an iron-hammer we can bring down until certain distant parties, but Tom's never been the absent Barbe-Father to me, he was just some guy, used to post in Comics occasionally. If I never set foot in policy, I'd never know we're supposed to be adrift helplessly in search of a new planet to colonise so we could get the Head Shop running at eighty percent optimal or such.

I did not join Barbelith for Tom Coates, or because I thought I could get on the good side of the superspecial oldguard elite I keep hearing about, to champion the sacrosanct or rearrange the connectors, nor even to talk about comics and magick and share stories of inane and horrifying local politics. I joined Barbelith because I can converse about comics, magick, and LOLcats in a relatively intelligent, polite and otherwise civilised environment, where disagreements on a theory, a method, or the application of such does not necessarily devolve into 'You know nothing' or namecalling.

And if this is it, if this is the End Times and the Apocalyptic All Going Away Now, then dammit, after-party! I don't care that 'after' is the goofiest looking word in the English language, I beseech you all, the world's over, the song is over, crimson and clover over and over, let's enjoy the booze and the dancing and the last dregs of good conversation!

And if we do hit up a new board, maybe we'll all feel like superspecial oldguard elite and see where that gets us. Beats historical revisionism, this pseudo-new-start stuff.
 
  

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