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Son Of Barbannoy

 
  

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Fungus of Consciousness
14:19 / 20.03.08
I should also add that the people of NSW (expressed through the legislature, the media and the judiciary) agree with me. The changes to the law were considered "Unworkable and inequitable" and "introduced larger loopholes in seeking to close them" and were not passed through parliament.

Surely the whole of NSW aren't crazed raco-rapists?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:20 / 20.03.08
Nope. Only the Lebanese.

Oh, come on. Secret of comedy.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
14:22 / 20.03.08
Boom tish.

Is it ok for me to feel victimised on the basis of my culture now?
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
14:25 / 20.03.08
Anyway, is anyone actually reading the original source of the (current) controversy? Namely the "SBR: Let's Theorize Consent".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:33 / 20.03.08
Well, it's an interesting one. One of the many elements that we're missing, though, is that what I sincerely hope did not come up in the deliberations of the NSW judiciary was the likelihood that, given the opportunity, women, who lie, would be crying rape like nobody's business to cover up their own loose morals. I say that because I hope that New South Wales is not in fact a planet of the busters.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
14:37 / 20.03.08
Hang on, let me get a handle on this.

Under the proposed laws, a situation could have arisen that saw two people get drunk together, have fully consensual sex (where the sex is expressly agreed to), and that consent could be withdraw after the fact. In fact, even where the consent is not withdrawn, by law it would have been a sexual assault due to the fact that ""consent cannot be said to have been lawfully obtained if at the time of that consent the victim was intoxicated by drugs or alcohol" and given that, under the law, a crime is considered to have happened regardless of whether it was reported.

So what are the laws now, now that the above law hasn't gone through?

Is it the case that, if someone has given 'consent' and then had sex, while drunk and, thus, not in a position to give consent, the law will not recognise that a rape has taken place? Can a person, as the law is now, get away with rape as long as they get the other person drunk enough to be made to say yes first?
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
14:55 / 20.03.08
Reg,

In a word, no. And yes.

Currently it is heard on a case by case basis and the merits of each argument are weighed up and for the courts to reach a determination. But unfortunately, the "She was drunk and I thought she had given me consent" is an oft used ploy that seems to work often enough for it to be used...... often.

My argument is that although it needs to be more clearly defined, throwing a blanket over it and saying "Consent cannot be given while drunk" is way too far reaching because of the subjectivity of drunkenness. Furthermore, if consent can't be given while drunk, a defence lawyer could just argue that someone wasn't drunk at the time and so the actual facts of the rape are never heard because her (or his) consent would be open to reasonable doubt.

Clearly more needs to be done to close an existing loophole that is allowing rapists to escape prosecution, but a law that seeks to close a loophole by introducing two others isn't a wise way forward.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:06 / 20.03.08
I think we should confine further debate on the facts of the issue to the relevant Head Shop thread; if anyone wants to continue disputing the way the case is being argued, then I suppose you could continue using this thread for that—although I see little purpose to it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:11 / 20.03.08
And you see a purpose to the discussion in the Head Shop? You have the soul of a child, Jack. The soul of a child.
 
 
HCE
15:13 / 20.03.08
consent could be withdraw after the fact

Look at that, fungus. Pretend it was somebody else who said it, not you. Then ask yourself what kind of reality that person lives in. That person lives in a world where non-consensual sex sometimes takes place, let's call that problem type A. In that world, something else also takes place, problem type B, in which people withdraw consent after the fact. So there are two types of assholes in this world, type A and type B.

In my reality, the proportion is something like, let's say, 800,000:1. If I am a decent human being, I look at that number and say hey! Let's make a law to protect the 800,000 people the type A assholes are attacking.

You know what you have done, by getting so troubled about a law that says, with a shocking faultiness of logic, that when you are impaired by alcohol you are impaired? You have said that either the proportion in your reality is 20:1, or 1:1, or even 1:800,000 -- or else that no matter what the numbers, it's the type B assholes who are really the problem, and this weird, bizarre notion that people whose minds are fogged by booze have fogged minds is just making life easier for them, and harder for the decent people.
 
 
Jack Fear
15:14 / 20.03.08
I could kill you just by thinking about it, Haus. Just by thinking hard. I could. It would be easy.

But I choose not to. Because I think you can be helped.

Let me help you, Haus. Help me to help you.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
15:26 / 20.03.08
brb,

I'd suggest you come over to the Head Shop where I have addressed that issue on countless occasions.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:30 / 20.03.08
Women lie.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:31 / 20.03.08
So, there are two Bad Things here, if I'm reading this right. One of these is my aforementioned:

Can a person, as the law is now, get away with rape as long as they get the other person drunk enough to be made to say yes first?

This is the present Bad Thing, which is actually happening. We're all agreed that it's a bad thing, and you seem to accept its presence by saying 'no and yes', which we'll take to mean yes, because we're talking about actual people actually being put through incredible suffering.

The alternate Bad Thing - the Bad Thing which might become a problem - seems to be 'loopholes'. I'm not quite sure what these 'loopholes' are. Are you saying that were the law to go through, someone could pretend to have been raped and misuse the law?

*

If so, what we're up against is the 'perceived equality' fallacy, perhaps even the 'not noticing large differences in power between persons and groups' fallacy. It's often made by well-intentioned people when talking about Israel and Palestine (e.g.,'Why can't they love their neighbours, or react peacfully like Buddhists would?'). It's a very easy mistake to make, and I've made it a lot in the past.

Now in this example right here we're measuring an actual, frequent and likely problem - people being raped - against a potential and in fact very unlikely problem (people pretending to have been raped 'for gains').

Now, real rape is far, far more common than hoax rape - and is worse, even given how bad pretending to have been raped is (assuming the pretender is fully compos mentis and making up rather than exaggerating, which two are complicators). Treating the two problems (real rape and hoax rape) as if they're equal is a mistake - which means that to beleive that 'changing this law wouldn't make there be less problems, only different ones' is also a mistake.

It's actually worthwhile changing the law from bad to better, even if 'better' is not entirely perfect, if the situation then changes from [a large ammount of people being raped] (many victims of a bad crime) to [some people being falsely accused of rape] (much fewer victims of a much less bad crime).

*

By analogy - 'someone with a gun attacking someone without a gun for selfish reasons' does not = 'two people having a fight' and should not be treated in such a way. There is already a bias operative (towards the person with a gun) so to say 'We must proceed in a way that treats these people as if they mirror eachother' is perfectly ridiculous.

Likewise, if snow falls on a mountain range, we don't get a flat plateau - we get the same shape covered in snow. The snow would need to fall much, much more heavily in the valleys than it did anywhere else if it was to change the shape of the mountain. The snow is our procedure, and what we want to do is change the shape of the mountain so that instead of having inequal peaks and troughs of power we have a distribution as fair as is humanly possible.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:33 / 20.03.08
Cross-post with BRB.
 
 
Fungus of Consciousness
15:44 / 20.03.08
All,

I'm going away to enjoy my Easter weekend on the sunny South Coast of NSW to bathe in the cool, refreshing waters South Pacific waters. Can I suggest that the actual consent conversation be taken over to the Headshop where a lot of this has already been discussed.

Happy Easter one and all.
 
 
HCE
16:56 / 20.03.08
I'm an atheist, actually, but Happy New Year!
 
 
Evil Scientist
16:59 / 20.03.08
Watch out for tigers.
 
 
Dead Megatron
17:06 / 20.03.08
Women lie.

Not to me, they don't. I'm sure of it...

[remember, this is comedy]
 
 
Feverfew
18:19 / 20.03.08
Are you sure?
 
 
Jack Fear
18:32 / 20.03.08
It is; but maybe not for the reasons you think.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:47 / 20.03.08
You know what you have done, by getting so troubled about a law that says, with a shocking faultiness of logic, that when you are impaired by alcohol you are impaired? You have said that either the proportion in your reality is 20:1, or 1:1, or even 1:800,000 -- or else that no matter what the numbers, it's the type B assholes who are really the problem, and this weird, bizarre notion that people whose minds are fogged by booze have fogged minds is just making life easier for them, and harder for the decent people.

Honestly, has he said anything like that?
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
23:02 / 20.03.08
Honestly, has he said anything like that?

what FoC has specifically said was:

Would the law have have made it too easy for women, regretful their actions, to bring a sexual assault case against someone who otherwise obtained consent? What if such a woman claimed that she was drink at the time of the encounter?

...

Clearly 99.9% of women would not wish to go through the anguish and humiliation of a rape case. This goes a long way to explaining why genuine cases are often not reported or pursued. I'm sure that even less would wish to bring a vexatious proceeding against an otherwise innocent man. But the effect of the law would have allowed consent to be given and then withdrawn after the fact.

...

The point is that law must be as watertight as possible, even if we all know it never reaches the point of impermeableness.


so no, FoC hasn't really said that, but yes, it kind of sounds like the idea behind his argument.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
23:06 / 20.03.08
to be fair, I'm not psychic, etc. etc. my guess, and that's all it can be, is that Fungus does not *think* this is what he's saying. but it *sounds* to us, based on what he *is* saying, like it's what he's thinking, whether he knows it or not. or to me, anyway.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:00 / 21.03.08
'To be fair, I'm not psychic, etc...

'But it *sounds* to us, based on what he *is* saying, like it's what he's thinking, whether he knows it or not. Or to me, anyway.'


I mean it's easily enough done, I suppose.
 
 
Thaddeus "B." Glands
01:01 / 21.03.08
Watch out for tigers.

Forget the tigers. It's Lebanese Beach Hassle he should be looking out for.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
02:32 / 21.03.08
Barbelith is toxic. It has gone bad like a rotten tooth.

I've been a member for almost eight years, and I find myself agreeing with you often. Sometimes I give you a "right on" fist in my head. But I see you referencing a barbelith of the past, a better barbelith, a barbelith nearly free of people spitting offensive opinions (and not short of people who had something to say to these opinions), and swear to god I think to myself holy shit this guy is seriously deluding himself if he thinks that Barbelith he's pining after has ever existed in this millenium. I can't remeber a year when someone wasn't saying something that, to me, at this time, was either in very poor taste or outright offensive. I was doing it when I first arrived and I was eventually brought around. I've been watching people do it ever since.

I guess it's not a big deal or anything. It's just been bothering me. I really don't get it.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
03:00 / 21.03.08
Yeah, it's that "all golden ages are bullshit" thing, isn't it?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
03:07 / 21.03.08
The "Remember the Good Old Days / All Golden Ages Are Bullshit" creature is a very large constrictor eating its own damn tail, like, and rolling in its very large way around and around, crashing into things. It's just using you, man.

Damn. I need a drink, only the wine is very far away in the downstairs regions of the house.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
03:23 / 21.03.08
Yeah, it's that "all golden ages are bullshit" thing, isn't it?

I have no idea what you mean by this.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
04:03 / 21.03.08
The idea that whenever anyone says "stuff was better in the old days", they're deluding themselves. Kind of what I think you were saying.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
04:14 / 21.03.08
Oh. Well, to elaborate, not "anyone". Just Final Message.

Maybe I shouldn't speak; I've never been part of a Golden Age except, apparently, Barbelith's. Unless you count television shows.

Also, I've never bought into that whole "Greatest Generation" thing. Grandpap may have fought Nazi's, but he never had to fight a clone. But that's really neither here nor there.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
05:01 / 21.03.08
Unless it was the time-travelling clone of someone who wasn't even born yet! Everything you think you know could just be a lie, right?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
05:05 / 21.03.08
I don't know; perhaps 'Our Sentence Is Up'?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
05:14 / 21.03.08
I'm bored of that punchline. We need something, ah, punchier.
 
  

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