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Big Brother 8.

 
  

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STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:19 / 07.06.07
Oh, I can too, which is why I didn't dignify it with a response.
 
 
nighthawk
20:50 / 07.06.07
Christ, that was completely out of order. How stupid.
 
 
nighthawk
21:16 / 07.06.07
Nicky and Charley obviously both shaken up by it too...

"Its not fair. I'm a nice person."

Emily's diary room entry was painful really. One of the most frustrating things about the show, for me anyway, is that even though housemate's actions do occasionally have consequences within the context of the show, they're never really taken to task or criticsed by Big Brother or Davina. I mean, repeatedly asking Emily if she understood was fairly pointless.

I suppose I want to see people actually thinking about their behaviour and coming to some sort of realisation about what they've done. Emily wasn't being malicious, but that's not the point. I think its a real problem that racism is frequently seen to be about individual offense, and not connected to broader historical and structural problems. Oops, gorgeous George is on. More in a bit. (Is anyone else watching?)
 
 
nighthawk
21:19 / 07.06.07
Complete failure to apologise too, until she realised she was being kicked out.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:20 / 07.06.07
Of course, we've known about Emily's transcript and eviction all day. I can't help thinking C4/Endemol have handled it smartly this time round. But from watching Charley, Nicky and Emily's conversations, I wonder if it's possible I'm just too old to know if there's been some shift in the use of that racial slur. Is it possible ~ I wouldn't know ~ that white and black teenagers bandy it around fairly neutrally together? The girls seemed almost more worried about how people in the outside world would take it "wrongly" ~ almost as if they could all basically accept what Emily meant, but that it would "look bad" to other people (older people?) There seemed a general shushing and an attempt to cover it up.

Not sure though really. Charley actually seemed troubled and uncomfortable about it all day, despite her insistence that they should drop it, her outright denial (to Ziggy et al in the bedroom) that it was anything to do with racism, and her assurances to Emily that she wasn't offended. I wonder if she wasn't even sure whether she should act offended... but it clearly preyed on her mind non-stop. Maybe among young British people, there isn't a general consensus and understanding anymore about whether it's acceptable (meaning something like "sister" or "gangster") or as wrong and racist as I'd assume most people agreed.

Clearly (I think) Emily is really misguided and idiotic ~ if a word like that's so close to your lips that it just pops out, you've got problems, and moaning that it's not fair cause you're a kind person who'd never offend anyone is plain stupid.

But a lot of the people on Big Brother are now a fair bit younger than me. Maybe I'm missing something.
 
 
Lama glama
21:20 / 07.06.07
Fairly fucking reprehensible stuff being spewed by Emily.
"I can say it 'cause I have loads of black friends."
"I use it at home all the time and nobody has a problem with it."
"They call me "wigger.""

Just fuck off!
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:25 / 07.06.07
Clearly (I think) Emily is really misguided and idiotic ~ if a word like that's so close to your lips that it just pops out, you've got problems, and moaning that it's not fair cause you're a kind person who'd never offend anyone is plain stupid.

That's kind of what I've been arguing on, erm, another board- doesn't matter how drunk I get, I never find the word "gubernatorial" just slipping out BECAUSE IT'S NOT IN MY FUCKING VOCABULARY.

And a lot of them are using the "oh, it's in a lot of popular music" excuse... does anyone really believe Emily listens to any music in which it's used?
 
 
Lama glama
21:27 / 07.06.07
She's too busy listening to that weird new indy stuff..
 
 
nighthawk
21:28 / 07.06.07
Maybe among young British people, there isn't a general consensus and understanding anymore about whether it's acceptable (meaning something like "sister" or "gangster") or as wrong and racist as I'd assume most people agreed.

Well, I think there's a lot to say on this, but Emily is harldy representative of 'young British people'. Nicky was spot on asking her 'where do you live?!' straight after she came out with it. She's clearly from a very privileged milieu, and frankly the racial consituency of her peer group is irrelevant.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:31 / 07.06.07
That's kind of what I've been arguing on, erm, another board- doesn't matter how drunk I get, I never find the word "gubernatorial" just slipping out BECAUSE IT'S NOT IN MY FUCKING VOCABULARY

Lol, was that you? Just read that post. Then the one (not from you!) asking why it's acceptable for black people to use the word, but not "normal-coloured" people. The ratio of absurd to sensible on that forum is about 90:10, for me.
 
 
nighthawk
21:32 / 07.06.07
I mean, 'I have black friends so I can't be racist' is a lame defence at the best of times, but claiming that she and her friends use the word as a social lubricant, a catalyst for group bonding, is appalling. Think about the history of this word and think about where Emily comes from. I just hope she actually thinks about these things, rather than convincing herself that this is all about 'offensiveness'.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:34 / 07.06.07
Lol, was that you? Just read that post. Then the one (not from you!) asking why it's acceptable for black people to use the word, but not "normal-coloured" people. The ratio of absurd to sensible on that forum is about 90:10, for me.

MW, keep reading that thread... post in it! That guy/girl's my hate figure of the night and I'm getting a little carried away.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:36 / 07.06.07
Well, I think there's a lot to say on this, but Emily is harldy representative of 'young British people'. Nicky was spot on asking her 'where do you live?!' straight after she came out with it. She's clearly from a very privileged milieu, and frankly the racial consituency of her peer group is irrelevant.

Personally, I'd rather not have the word bandied about neutrally at all, because I don't think a bunch of young people in 2007, black or white, can empty a word of centuries of deep-seated racial hatred.

If Emily does have a lot of black friends who call each other variations on the n-word and genuinely don't mind her saying it, that clearly doesn't have a bearing on whether she's entitled to say it to Charley, or anyone else outside her friendship group with their own little rules ~ or whether it's more broadly offensive to people watching her on TV. If she throws it around with her white friends to act urban, I guess that's even more stupid and reprehensible, but to me it doesn't make much difference to the broader context. Your black mate could genuinely be fine about you using it to her. It's still a word forged in racial oppression, and you and your black mate don't have the power to change that.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:38 / 07.06.07
NB. I couldn't stand Charley during part 1 because of how she behaved towards the (I think) genuinely sweet, spirited and decent Chanelle, but... that's irrelevant in this case.
 
 
nighthawk
21:40 / 07.06.07
NB. I couldn't stand Charley during part 1 because of how she behaved towards the (I think) genuinely sweet, spirited and decent Chanelle, but... that's irrelevant in this case.

Oh yeah, definitely. Chanelle's fast becoming one of my favourite housemates, despite her occasional tantrums (was there any basis for her claim that BB was going to confiscate her boots?!).
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:43 / 07.06.07
I think she's genuinely quite funny and intelligent; I almost think she's being playful and enjoying having little fits. I like the way she gets herself wound up into upset, just by thinking through some train of thought and talking to herself. She was tantrumming about the boots before she even left the diary room, just as she got herself into a terrible state about the fact that if the housemates were denied toilet roll, they'd all get genital herpes and BB would only have to buy more toilet roll anyway, so why didn't they just, once, on this occasion, give them a little bit more toilet roll because if she came back in here with GENITAL HERPES it wouldn't be funny!

Also, her stuffed rabbit.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:46 / 07.06.07
Okay, read this, peeps.

The "normal-coloured" thing is making me FAR more angry than I probably should be with a ten-year-old.

It's Thursday night. I shouldn't be wanting them to review the gun laws on a Thursday night.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:49 / 07.06.07
Surely that's just some troll, Stoats. I don't think it's worth spending more energy on.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:56 / 07.06.07
I know, but it's like a SCAB...
 
 
Olulabelle
21:57 / 07.06.07
I actually think the behaviour in that thread is a lot better than I would expect from Digital Spy. Apart from Isis, of course and the freak with the one liner.

I am pleasantly surprised. I thought they'd all be sticking up for Emily.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
21:58 / 07.06.07
Egads. I sincerely hope that the poster in question *is* only ten years old so that the chances of him/her being educated out of this kind of moronic thinking before it does some real damage are that much greater.

I don't understand? why is everyone angry at me?

I AM normal coloured in my eyes, just like a black person will believe that THEY are normal coloured and we are not.


Words fail me. Luckily they didn't fail Stoatie nor most of the other posters. More power to them.

Also this is mildly interesting:

Y'know what it is, IMO--Emily is 'postracist' like girls who think pole dancing is empowering are 'postfeminist'. I don't think she gets the significance of what she's said; she has no concept of the history. She like, 'black people can vote now, so what's, like, the issue? That's all fixed now, and they say it in rap songs, so what's the problem.'

I really, really hope that this type of thinking, explicit or implicit, is not as prevalent among people younger than me (I'm 34) as I might suspect it is.
 
 
nighthawk
22:00 / 07.06.07
I'm glad I don't read Digital Spy.
 
 
Blake Head
22:08 / 07.06.07
Posters like that make you appreciate Barbelith's... no, it's probably not worth finishing that thought is it?

I'm not really following this but how do people feel about Emily being excluded fairly directly from the show, rather than the alternatives? Not that I'm saying she should have definitely been kept on in the arguably privileged position of a BB contestant, but it got me thinking about the fact that if you said that in a larger society or space that wasn't so primed to come down strong on rascist language you wouldn't be excluded, in fact you would be forced (hopefully) to attempt to account for your actions and live with the consequences. Does anyone think kicking her out was just an easy way for Endemol not to address or highlight the underlying issue while appearing to take a strong moral stance?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
22:11 / 07.06.07
To be honest, while it would have been better to confront the issue onscreen, they didn't really have much choice- she HAD to go, not only for ethical reasons but for practical ones. And it WAS apparently in the contract this time.
 
 
Blake Head
22:13 / 07.06.07
Ah. Fair enough.
 
 
_Boboss
23:03 / 07.06.07
oh crumbs, frightfully sorry. offense to anyone here was not my intent, except to jub who i thought said a silly. (and no 'offense' even there, a mild mock was all i had in mind.)

What like, people *really* reckon Tracy used to be a feller? Not an expert or anything, but I’m not seeing that at all. Or are they just being mean because she’s annoying? ...Is it cos she was all chinny when she went in?

will certainly have to hold my hands up to the 'trans-spotting' thing there, i hadn't really thought about the implications of how that itself could be insulting or ungroovy, oppressive etc. from my personal position of not attaching any value judgement or notion of deviance (other than like a statistical one - or would that be deviation rather than deviance? oh dear i'm getting all knotted, apologies again) or weirdness to someone's chosen gender roles, i think that in the above part of my response to jub i was trying to be dismissive of the idea that someone might be. trying to think of what cues someone could have taken from tracy's appearance that might have made them genuinely think she was trans, had they not simply been trying to say somewhat maliciously 'she looks like a bloke', i ended up actually doing a wrong myself (and may even be doing so again now - sorry, i'm no good at this stuff).

i'm not really keen to cop to having implied 'that to say someone's transsexual is a way of slurring them'. knowing the brit public as i hope i do, i think it's not unsafe to assume that whoever began or disseminated the 'tracy used to be a man' rumour was not doing so to be either dispassionately scientific or complimentary, and that saying so needn't be considered to reflect my own view.

on to tonight: emily - racist. channel 4 - running scared of gordon the gargoyle and his dibs on their public funding.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:23 / 08.06.07
Gumbitch, I understand and appreciate what you're saying there. Holding my hands up, I also find it hard to know what terminology is less offensive when talking about transsexuality. (There was, of course, a "101" thread about it on Conversation).

Y'know what it is, IMO--Emily is 'postracist' like girls who think pole dancing is empowering are 'postfeminist'. I don't think she gets the significance of what she's said; she has no concept of the history. She like, 'black people can vote now, so what's, like, the issue? That's all fixed now, and they say it in rap songs, so what's the problem.'


This is what I was trying to get at above ~ whether there's a generation thing and maybe to black and white teenagers, there's a genuine confusion about whether the word is a horrible racial insult or just something you hear in songs all the time, or both, and when there's a difference. Maybe the issue of context and intention is quite complicated and hard to grasp, especially (not meaning to be too patronising) when you're a teenager. I can see it could be odd to reconcile one of the worst and most taboo words in our language with a term you hear in mainstream films and music ~ and maybe there is some kind of difficult slippage for them.

This is why I concluded above, not that it's up to me, that I can't help thinking it'd be easier if we never heard the word again. Unless you totally rid it of its origins and history, which doesn't seem possible within the near future, I'm not sure how it can cease to be a problem. Some people would have to find a new word for mate or guy, but, you know, sacrifices can be made.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
06:30 / 08.06.07
I'm not really following this but how do people feel about Emily being excluded fairly directly from the show, rather than the alternatives? Not that I'm saying she should have definitely been kept on in the arguably privileged position of a BB contestant, but it got me thinking about the fact that if you said that in a larger society or space that wasn't so primed to come down strong on rascist language you wouldn't be excluded

I can't help thinking it might be good if, say, places of education and work did all exclude someone for that kind of language. If a white colleague addressed a black colleague that way, wouldn't you expect severe discipline? And the Big Brother House is a TV gameshow, outside the complexities of employment law, and exclusion doesn't mean depriving someone of their salary, risking a tribunal or discussions with a union ~ it's less of a big deal to chuck someone out of a TV show than to fire them from work. As I said, if I heard someone say it at work in that way, I'd be doubtful whether they could carry on in their job.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:28 / 08.06.07
From the Guardian, this echoes my feelings really.

Henry Bonsu, director of Colourful Radio, a digital station aimed at a black audience, described the incident as a "wake-up" call to young people who think the word is a term of respect of endearment. "Lots of middle-class white girls from the home counties are listening to hip-hop music - it is the dominant street culture, and certain things are deemed to be cool. Perhaps she thought it was legitimate.

"[But] if you think you can gain coolness by using the n-word then you're in for a rude awakening. People think the word has been denuded of its savage meaning - it hasn't. And many young people don't realise this."
 
 
miss wonderstarr
07:35 / 08.06.07
Also from the Guardian, this makes me want to dig my nails into the author's face and pull down.

for teenage girls brought up enshrined in the vernacular of hip hop, through which the word "n*****" is littered, it is not inconceivable that this was delivered with some boisterous, if grossly ill-timed, affection? In this context, could a synonym of Emily's silly statement have been "are you pushing it out, gangsta?"

Both Charley and Nicky, the laconic housemate of Indian origin that has become the unofficial prefect of the brilliant Big Brother girl's dorm, have said that they didn't find the comment offensive. This will come as no surprise to anyone under the age of 35.

It is Ofcom's duty to look after potential audience offence and not the housemates, of course, and Channel 4 and Endemol have reacted with expediency to eradicate the perceived problem. But consider this for a second. If the BBC deems it acceptable for one of their major stars, Chris Moyles, to use the word "gay" with intensely negative connotations, should Ofcom be tying Channel 4's hands when it comes to the word "n*****" with, well not an exactly positive inference, but a basically inoffensive one?

 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
07:49 / 08.06.07
This will come as no surprise to anyone under the age of 35.

Ooh, I was just under the wire! I guess that means I needn't be offended on any grounds at all.

Wait, that's not what I meant to say. Now what was it...

Oh yes. FUCK. OFF.
 
 
Whisky Priestess
08:04 / 08.06.07
The digested article, digested:

SHE DID NOT MEAN TO CAUSE OFFENCE THEREFORE IT WAS NOT OFFENSIVE

Do you see?!? You ... you PC lunatics?! Who probably knit your own yoghurt and read the Guardi - oh.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
08:21 / 08.06.07
If any mod wants to star out the word in my quotations above, please do.
 
 
Sibelian 2.0
08:42 / 08.06.07
This will come as no surprise to anyone under the age of 35.

Nor is it likely to come as much of a surprise to anyone over the age of 35 either.

In fact, article, it probably comes as LESS of a surprise to anyone OVER the age of 35.

You enormous tit.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
09:59 / 08.06.07
Here's something from another forum, which also echoes something I felt and tried to express above.

As for Charley, I did feel for her last night. I think she felt she oughtn't be offended. The fact that she had to try and style out her upset it another worrying outcome of the use of this word.

Just as Emily seemed to genuinely think it's OK for white teenagers to use the word as a messing-about tease, it seemed that Charley wasn't sure whether she had grounds to be offended.
 
  

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