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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Doctor Who Season 3 UK (No Spoilers)

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Regrettable Juvenilia

18:11 / 09.06.07

I presume Sally's friend who goes back to 1920 is Suzy Costello's granny?

Nope, she's Suzy Costello herself.

Yes, another cracker - clever in concept, smart in execution (never feels rushed but there's a lot packed in), with some nice emotional touches and a genuinely unsettling idea for a baddie. Not sure it needed that final montage to hammer the point home, because I was already thinking about when you're scared as a kid and think a shape in your room is a monster, you turn the light on and look at it and it's just an everyday object, but OH NOES it only becomes a monster when you don't look at it!!! I mean, I'm home alone and slightly spooked, I would have been deeply traumatised as a kid.

I also love how this season seems to have been given license to play with the possibilities of time travel in a way that the show has rarely done.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

18:18 / 09.06.07

I meant Suzy 'Evil rejuvenating gauntlet' Costello from Torchwood.

miss wonderstarr

18:22 / 09.06.07

He recorded the original film back in the sixties, he gave it to the copper (presumably Sally's notes mentioned him) and when he finally got round to being a producer of DVDs he transfered the film onto those.

When Detective-dude transported back to 1969 got into publishing, then video publishing, then DVD publishing, I thought he got them on to the DVDs for the doctor.

That was my vague reasoning, but it's still vague ~ we have to assume the Doctor could record digital video when he was stuck in 1969, I suppose? And that his best option of getting digital video onto 17 DVDs was to give it to Billy Shipton in 1969 and somehow know the cop was going to become a DVD producer (possible for him, but why would he know one man's future?) or persuade Billy to change the course of his career for the next 38 years, and trust that he'd remember to put those clips on 17 DVDs some time in the 21st century (assuming that's when someone like Sally, who isn't an early adopter or especially keen on movies, would buy her 17 films).

Can't help thinking there would be an easier way for the Doctor to get clips on DVDs than set a 38 year lifeplan in motion and trust it was all going to work out by '07.

I'm not nitpicking here... just doing exactly the geeky thing the show knows people do with it.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

18:23 / 09.06.07

miss wonderstarr we have to assume the Doctor could record digital video when he was stuck in 1969, I suppose?

We could I assume, after all he's a clever fella. Or we could assume they filmed it using sixties cameras and ex-copper saved it then transferred it to DVD.

somehow know the cop was going to become a DVD producer because it's in Sally's notes that she gives to the Doctor.

Can't help thinking there would be an easier way for the Doctor to get clips on DVDs than set a 38 year lifeplan in motion and trust it was all going to work out by '07.

Because Sally's notes explain what to do!

miss wonderstarr

18:27 / 09.06.07

Also most adults blink 3-4 times a minute so you couldn't do what they done there. In the programme.

18:29 / 09.06.07

Isn't the difficulty of not blinking, y'know, kind of the point...?

Our Lady Has Left the Building

18:32 / 09.06.07

Yeah, the bit where Sally leaves Larry to watch the statue on his own I was shouting "You daft! He'll need to blink at some point!" I'm also not sure how they managed to survive in the basement long enough to get in the TARDIS, but again, dramatic license.

So the statues ambush the Doctor and Martha and somehow get the key off them before sending them back to sixty-whenever. I wonder why Sally could get in to the TARDIS but they couldn't, but perhaps the Doctor programmed it to accept her?

18:41 / 09.06.07

Your description of "not nitpicking" and mine are clearly very different, W.

Can't help thinking there would be an easier way for the Doctor to get clips on DVDs than set a 38 year lifeplan in motion and trust it was all going to work out by '07.

There may be, yes, but you're missing a pretty big part of the logic of the episode here:

He records the clips, because that's what the notes Sally gives him tell him that he does. There's no "trust it's going to work" anywhere at all in this episode - it's all pre-ordained.

18:42 / 09.06.07

I thought the idea was that the angels had the key but didn't know where the Tardis was - they only found it by following sally (After she stole the key from them)...

miss wonderstarr

18:42 / 09.06.07

Well, I meant I'm not trying to be mean ~ that my questions were part of my enjoyment of the programme, rather than an attempt to undermine it. But yes, decent explanation.

Mysterious Transfer Student

20:12 / 09.06.07

Th-that was Diverse Records in Newport!

I get my hair cut over the road from there!

Ahhh, sod scary and original monsters and clever execution, you know the thrill's back when you recognize the locations.

Regrettable Juvenilia

20:31 / 09.06.07

I meant Suzy 'Evil rejuvenating gauntlet' Costello from Torchwood.

Oh! In that case, apologies and well-spotted!

03:19 / 10.06.07

I was almost going to whinge about us not seeing the Angels move when no-one was looking at them

Ahh, but the camera/audience was, you see.

That was my vague reasoning, but it's still vague ~ we have to assume the Doctor could record digital video when he was stuck in 1969, I suppose?

Well, he invented Betamax in 1953... Although, references to picture and sound quality indicate he may have filmed it on analog or film back in the day.

But, right, marvelously fun episode. The zoom on Sally's blink reminded me of fun 70's horror films. This is four really good episodes in a row-- this season's really picking up.

And the "statues" were actually actors wearing prosthetics. I'm stunned.

05:40 / 10.06.07

I don't like miss wonderstarr's posts regarding Doctor Who right now. I respect them but... they tend to just pick apart everything. Not unfairly most of the time, but still. They pick. And pick. And pick.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

06:37 / 10.06.07

I don't like Extreme Lenin's posts about miss wonderstarr's posts right now, mw is entitled to an opinion.

This is probably the one time in a few years I would have liked a bit more detail on the making of an episode. When Sally goes up to the landing (the point where she takes the key from one of the statues) it's clearly visible that at least one of the statues is indeed an actor in makeup. I do wonder if the angel out in the garden was a model rather than an actor. I found that as the story went on the angels went more and more from looking like light grey stone to a darker more plastic look, not enough to spoil the episode for me, as I was caught up in it by this point.

Some liberties were taken with the concept. Why didn't one of the other statues attack Sally when she wasn't looking at them on the landing? How did they manage to look at the four angels standing round the TARDIS in the basement of the house before the light went? And was it mentioned in the story about what the connection was between the Angels and the house, or was there none?

06:56 / 10.06.07

I like this Sally Sparrow character - she seems like the Doctors type - cute, brave and quick on her feet. I hope we see her again.

miss wonderstarr

07:11 / 10.06.07

I don't like miss wonderstarr's posts regarding Doctor Who right now. I respect them but... they tend to just pick apart everything. Not unfairly most of the time, but still. They pick. And pick. And pick.

I'm sorry. Last week, though, if you look back a couple of pages, I had nothing but praise for the episode ~ I said it was the best Who I'd ever seen, as good as some of the best novels, films and comics I'd ever experienced, and that I wish it could win an award.

So I really was only being critical "right now", and as I tried to say, that's because its part of the fun for me to sit with friends after watching something and have them explain bits I didn't get, which I sometimes missed and which are sometimes weaknesses in continuity or plot.

To be honest, I thought only a couple of posts max of mine have been picky about Who recently... my last one above was saying "yes, good explanation" and acting satisfied.

09:41 / 10.06.07

What a great episode; nice work.

Hmm I guess martha left the mobile in the Tardis by accident, or it ran out of charge. Damn things

The Doc could have just hung out at the steps of St Pauls and borrowed Pat's Tardis, or could have taken advantage of the New Years Day holiday to take Martha up to Oxley Woods and swipe Jon's Tardis after he falls out.

I know...time is complicated, wibbley wobbley, timey wimey, VERY complicated stuff.

Really impressed by this third series; strength to strength.

RE DIM/EOTD...Can anyone clarify whether the deal with the Terry Nation Estate expires after three years?? D'ya think they'll let the pepperpots go out like that? Its great that the series producers haven't had to rely on the history of the show too heavily and created gripping suspenseful drama with original material and concepts.

10:22 / 10.06.07

If you want picky, how about this one:

The Doctor and Martha are trapped in 1969, yeah? And later on, so's the copper. But he lives the rest of his life out from 1969 onwards.

So how come there aren't also aged versions of the Doctor and Martha in Sally Sparrow's time?

miss wonderstarr

10:34 / 10.06.07

I thought the Doctor and Martha escape 1969 by getting Sally to trigger the emergency protocol in 2007, and transporting the TARDIS back to 69. It's all a bit... wimey, I agree.

miss wonderstarr

10:34 / 10.06.07

Also, aged version of the Doctor?

10:39 / 10.06.07

...because they escape 1969 in 1969...
non-linear time stuff breaks my head too but only because my monkey brain still clings to the linearity
loved that episode, Messers Moffat and Cornell should do much more Who.

10:40 / 10.06.07

cross post -sorry

11:01 / 10.06.07

Yeah, but they can't escape 1969 until Sally sends the TARDIS back, so there should be older versions of them in her time, right up until the point that she sends it on its way, at which point those older versions would cease to exist.

I'm sure the older series were better at handling time paradox stuff like this, even if it was only by writing the storylines in a way that avoided these logic puzzles, but I might be rose-tinting them.

11:03 / 10.06.07

I guess it's also implied that the people who are sent back into the past can't come back to the present because all their potential energy in the future had been eaten by the angels...

11:05 / 10.06.07

But that would mean that the Doctor and, more importantly, Martha, couldn't go back either....

11:10 / 10.06.07

Policeman couldn't be saved by the Doctor, because doing so would mean that he didn't remain in the past to get the messages put onto the DVDs, which'd mean Sally didn't get the messages, which'd mean the Docotor wouldn't get the TARDIS back, which'd mean policemean *couldn't* be saved by the Doctor.

The easiest way to avoid all of this would have been to have our heroes stuck in an ill-definied 'time vortex', or a piece of imaginary science along those lines, rather than at an actual point in an existing timeline.

11:30 / 10.06.07

That being the case, the cop could quite reasonably asked why the hell he should stay behind as opposed to, say, Martha...

Regrettable Juvenilia

11:31 / 10.06.07

I thought it was all pretty clear, and in fact I thought it was another example of the Doctor's slightly dubious morality rihgt up until Sally handed the file, at which point you realise he's trapped in a paradox too. The Doctor can't go back and retrospectively rescue Suzy and Billy for the same reason he can't do anything else other than write on the wall and hide the messages on the DVDs - because this is all how Sally's folder tells him it has to happen.

I'm going to write off any claims that ye olde Doctor Who did time paradoxes etc better until anyone comes up with specific examples...

11:33 / 10.06.07

To fanwank for a moment, you could suggest the reason the cop stays behind is that by the time the Tardis turns up he's already met the Sally he marries.

Mysterious Transfer Student

11:40 / 10.06.07

That's probably the best answer. It handily evades any ethical issues that might be raised by leaving someone trapped in the wrong era - if they were *meant* to be there, have kids, leave their mark and live a full life it's okay.

Although why do people in these situations always seem to fall for the first person they meet? Some shepherd sitting on a wall doesn't necessarily have to be ideal marriage material. Why not shop around?

Tryphena Absent

13:47 / 10.06.07

He seemed to like her in a persistent way. Why shouldn't she marry him? I liked the idea that they got thrown back in time and ended up supremely cheerful. Good stuff.

15:00 / 10.06.07

I'd quite like to see the doctorless episode roled into the season finale next year - giving the supporting cast a greater share of the narrative and building up their world before the Doctor waltzes in and devestation ensues...

Our Lady Has Left the Building

15:46 / 10.06.07

As in the episode with the Mummys and Sutekh the Doctor can ignore the continuity of time as he wants, so once they've got the TARDIS back, he could rescue the policeman and, while it would shag things up for Sally, the Doctor would be fine. The advantage, from his point of view, is that letting events play out as they did allows him to kill off four really nasty aliens as opposed to letting them stay loose. And it sounds like the cop didn't have a particularly awful life, if he was able to maintain a career in videos and DVDs.

I was puzzling a bit over the seventeen different DVDs, I suppose that was necessary to put the other guy in position so that Sally could meet him and see the Doctor easter egg.

16:26 / 10.06.07

Oh, the timeline doesn't bother me to any great extent, because it wasn't the point of the episode. I was just using the iffyness to show that there definitely were some things that made no sense in terms of internal logic, and that they were potentially more bothersome than stuff like how Sally managed to be watching all four statues at the same time.

Wouldn't have been able to put up with Sally as a long-term companion, btw. Far too chirpy.

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