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Invited possession/horsing and channeling/divine inspiration.

 
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:41 / 06.08.07
Fortunately there were experienced people around who were able to help evaluate afterwards, and alleviate some of my other concerns too.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:44 / 06.08.07
Wolfangel (and anyone else)
A book you might consider getting hold of is Embodying Colonial Memories: Spirit Possession, Power, and the Hauka in West Africa by Paul Stoller (1995). Stoller, an American anthropologist, examines the Hauka movement of West Africa, which is notable for its embodiment of cultural resistance to colonialism through possession and dance. First arising in the mid-1920's, dance troupes which included members dressed as European soldiers and officials traveled around the countryside, using derision and mimicry of European speech & bodily movement as a way of empowering themselves and their audiences in opposition to the French domination of their territories. Drawing on Taussig's concept of mimesis, Stoller examines how Hauka possession-enactments which include "Europeanised" spirits serve as both articulations of European power and an opportunity to mock it. Stoller views the Hauka movement as an extremely creative response to the specific experiences of colonialism in that region and discusses how the history of colonisation became a part of local cultural memories. He also examines of the Hauka has survived and plays a role in the articulation of dissatisfaction with the contemporary political situation in Niger. One of his key points, apropos of possession, is how possession is related to embodied knowledge and social memory. Stoller sees the Hauku possession events, during which the ways of the "white man" were mimicked and mocked, as a way of "mastering" him. He also sees possession as an embodied enactment of living history, so that each time a particular spirit is embodied, it brings that history into the present. He argues that possession itself is a form of creating and maintaining cultural memory, as important as oral traditions or texts.

Stoller has also written In Sorcery’s Shadow: A Memoir of Apprenticeship Among the Songhay of Niger - an account of his apprenticeship to a group of sorcerers in the Republic of Niger, and how it changed his approach to ethnographic fieldwork and Fusion of the Worlds: An Ethnography of Possession Among the Songhay of Niger. He's an interesting guy - very critical of much of anthropological theory and the idea that field research can be "objective", and very aware of the limitations of scientific approaches to the inexplicable:

When I confronted first hand the powers of Dunguri in Wanzerbe and acted like a Songhay healer, all of my assumptions about the world were uprooted from their foundation on the plain of Western metaphysics. Nothing that I had learned or could learn within the parameters of anthropological theory could have prepared me for Dunguri. Having crossed the threshold into the Songhay world of magic, and having felt the texture of fear and the exultation of repelling the force of a sorcerer, my view of Songhay culture could no longer be one of a structuralist, a symbolist or a Marxist...
 
 
Ticker
16:57 / 06.08.07
There are days when I would give up chocolate for life for a pass into trouser's personal library...

the book sounds like a fantastic resource.
 
 
shockoftheother
17:48 / 06.08.07
I'm going to sidestep the slavery issue, since everyone else is addressing it so well, and concentrate on my own experience in this area. I think it's important to realise that a lot of people, especially in the west, find the notion of giving over the body to something else frankly terrifying. If you conceive of the body as the fundamental location of your identity, having that given over to something else is always going to be a little worrying. The anxiety of having something else wearing your face is an old one, and I think it bubbles to the surface here. But I would also claim that it's one of the most fundamentally rewarding magical experiences, and has served to deepen the relationship with my patron immeasurably.

It's important to have a fairly solid understanding of your own identity while doing possession work, which is not to say that the work won't have profound transformative aspects, but I think it's telling that - in the tradition I trained in - this work comes after extensive self & image work. With some time having passed between that training and today, I think that tradition has some problems with the way in which it fails to differentiate clearly between aspecting, shadowing, inspiration and full possession, but I think that work is correctly placed in the curriculum of clergy training.

An anecdote to illustrate the problems that arise. The group I belonged to for a while had as part of its practice the giving of oracles from a priestess (always the same priestess) possessed by a god. I will testify that on more than one occasion I am sure the possession was genuine, and I benefitted greatly from the experience. However, over a long period it became more and more apparent that said priestess much less frequently genuinely possessed and handing out her own advice in the guise of the god's. I withdrew from the group after a particularly nasty attempt to sabotage my private life through such a 'possession' and noting the unconscious conspiracy of silence that was in operation in a number of members. I left, but not before blotting my copybook enormously by saying these things out loud.

But that leaves the question of how to distinguish between genuine and faked possessions. I'm afraid I have to appeal primarily to the the mystery of presence - yes, it's hard to trust purely to intuition, but I know when my goddess is present, at least. But just like the African diasporic traditions, western magic has also had a tradition of testing the divine presence:

I wish, therefore, here to point out to you the signs by which those who are rightly possessed by the Gods may be known. For they either subject the whole of their life, as a vehicle or instrument to the inspiring Gods; or they exchange the human for the divine life ; or they energize with their own proper life about divinity. But they neither energize according to sense, nor are in such a vigilant state as those who have their senses excited from sleep (for neither do they apprehend future events) ; nor are they moved as those are who energize according to impulse. Nor, again, are they conscious of the state they are in, neither as they were before, nor in any (122) other way ; nor, in short, do they convert to themselves their own intelligence, or exert any knowledge which is peculiarly their own.

The greatest indication, however, of the truth of this is the following. Many, through divine inspiration, are not burned when fire is introduced to them, the inspiring influence preventing the fire from touching them. ?any, also, though burned, do not apprehend that they are so, because they do not then live an animal life. And some, indeed, though transfixed with spits, do not perceive it ; but others that are struck on the shoulders with axes, and others that have their arms cut with knives, are by no means conscious of what is done to them. Their energies, likewise, are not at all human. For inaccessible places become accessible to those that are divinely inspired ; they are thrown into fire, and pass through fire, and over rivers, like the priest in Castabalis, without being injured. But from these things it is demonstrated, that those who energize enthusiastically are not conscious of the state they are in, and that they neither live a human nor an animal life, according to sense or impulse, but that they exchange this for a certain more divine life, by which they are inspired and perfectly possessed.

[Iamblichus, Theurgia, III, iv]

(Some sloppy translation of complex Greek in the original, but it is Taylor's translation from the C18th so it is what it is.)

Lots of good stuff in the above (as there is in the Theurgia more generally) but I want to take out the key fact that Iamblichus, as a practicing Theurgist, clearly believed that possession should have verifiable qualities and should not be beyond testing. I think western magicians occasionally need more of that courage and a little less willingness to indulge sloppy amateur dramatics in the place of actual possession. How to establish those tests is another matter, but I've found that respectfully but clearly asking the god how we can know it is genuinely him or her will tend to establish a clear protocol. Anecdotal evidence, again: my patron is Hekate, and I work with her in her white, red and black aspects, but of late my work has been predominantly with her red aspect. When I am in full possession by her, she wll frequently place my hands over candle flames for a prolonged perod of time. The only burn marks I have ever had from this practice have been superficial at best, and it's a pretty accurate test. But this test can be less dramatic, even to the point of being simply verbal.

I should point out at that this possession is hardly a regular thing, and doesn't happen at every group meeting, but tends to occur in spates. There's a clear difference between this and the sensation I have at the end of devotional work, which is often of a clear presence, even sometimes to the point of having a very clear effect on my behaviour. As Iamblichus suggests, one of the effects of possession is, I think, that one's individual life takes on more clearly the traits of the god one is horsing.

Two further quick things - I concur with the idea that total amnesia is bandied about as being the marker of 'true' possession, and that there's a cultural imperative to forget the possible content of those experiences. Yet in my personal practice, I tend to find that any recollection I have of the period of possession is at best fragmentary and shot through with a variety of other images. My way of thinking about this is that the body itself remembers whatever it goes through, and processing the phenomenal power and strangeness of possession may take the form of amnesia or a disjointed, hallucinogenic imagefest. In fact, looking at my experiences, they tend to progress from amnesia to some *sort* of recollection (though it may bear very little semblance to what anyone else in the room experienced) the more work I do with Her.

Second, it's interesting that possession work has been so neglected in western magic, even in the practice of evocation, where one might assume it has some application. While I think this in part due to some heavy cultural prejudices to do with control, it also highlights that this sort of work tends to require a community in which to operate. The increasing prevalence of this work gives some insight into how the model of the magician as solipsistic inquirer into the mysteries is increasingly being contextualised by an awareness that the magician has a role in the community, and perhaps also the dissolution of the divide between magician and priest that seems to be taking place in the pagan and neopagan movements.

It's mildly irritating to me that I've managed to take up this much space and yet not captured what I think the essence of possession is, which might always escape such discursive media as this anyway, because it's such a very incarnate and bodily thing. Deren calls it 'the white darkness', and that encapsulates the ecstasy and terror of it (which is new every time)... the experience for me is closer to white-out than black-out. Knowing the what the pressure at the back of the head means, and feeling a different tongue start to stir in the mouth, before every sensation in every part of the body becomes absolute and infinite - even knowing what these things mean, having felt them before, there is a certain terror to them. Then there is the feeling afterwards, the novelty of flesh, the marvellous extension of the body, a feeling of emptiness or tiredness combined with blessing: --

After Possession

She stands between the bird and the silent crowd
with her vulture epaulettes and voodoo hairstyle,

with thick veined hands as stiff as cold clay
that touch each other, unbelievingly,

and the closed smile of the survivor's perfect
knowledge, total recall. Like a stopped cyclone.



(... and yet I feel I've barely touched on the subject.)
 
 
Ticker
18:10 / 06.08.07
I think that tradition has some problems with the way in which it fails to differentiate clearly between aspecting, shadowing, inspiration and full possession, but I think that work is correctly placed in the curriculum of clergy training.

I completely agree. I attended a spiritworkers conference last year where we discussed the fad of possession and the social enhancement of being a horse and the shame| fear of failure of not becoming fully possessed and unable to communicate this to the community. If there is a significant loss of face to admitting non possession especially during a ritual where many are expecting to interact with Deity many people default to play acting their way through it. Or not being educated enough about the pre states mis represent their experience out of ignorance.

Testing also plays a vital role in fostering community faith in the act and if one is given a gracious way of admitting to being Riderless there should be no reason to not admit it. to lose faith in ones oracles is a terrible thing and needs to be protected.

As Iamblichus suggests, one of the effects of possession is, I think, that one's individual life takes on more clearly the traits of the god one is horsing.

I've spoken with a few practitioners who have horsed regularly for many years and they independantly assert they are becoming merged with the Deity. Indeed these particular practitioners carry with them what I consider shadowing as a constant to the degree that non sensitives are aware of something unique and Powerful entering the space with them.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:16 / 06.08.07
I attended a spiritworkers conference last year where we discussed the fad of possession and the social enhancement of being a horse and the shame| fear of failure of not becoming fully possessed and unable to communicate this to the community.

Gosh. Really? That's... well that's just sad, to be honest. I'd also note that IME there's a lot of stigma attached to being possessed, if possession is occuring "spontaneously" and uninvited.
 
 
Ticker
18:44 / 06.08.07
Very few groups have been using possession long enough to have fully functional tests and have it be a matter of tradition rather than a potential personal challenge to require them.

I'm constantly biting my tongue over what shockoftheother details about the lack of clergy training regarding aspecting, shadowing, inspiration and full possession but I suspect the large part of it is due to the youth of the groups and so far the lack of constant abuses. Sadly I feel the lack of education leads to delusion which in the long run tears groups and people apart.

I also have the benefit of being around horses of high integrity and while they themselves would admit to failure rather than give offense and betray their Deities and community, I have witnessed the idolization of the position and the unconscious desire to be a horse leading people to falsehood. I usually keep it to myself but when the Presence is not present it's pretty obvious to me. I simply do not have a channel in the community for this to be useful rather than taken as a personal attack. Simply put I don't know any pagan communities that have a set structure to make the testing non personal and verifiable without it being an ugly finger pointing event.

People with low self image and wishing to have a higher standing in the community are often drawn to these roles as they see the benefits bestowed by the community in appreciation. Even the down sides are envied as they draw community support and compassion.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
20:30 / 06.08.07
Oh yes, good old Iamblichus. Are you familiar with Stephen Ronan's work on the Theurgia? I'm thinking of his book on Hekate (review here in particular. I would wax lyrical about it, but unfortunately I lent my copy out to some dodgy academic or other.
 
 
shockoftheother
21:20 / 06.08.07
I really like Ronan's book, and wish it were less scarce, since I recommend it to people all the time. He's done a lot of the much-needed legwork in terms of collation and translation, and I think it's best read in in conjunction with S.I. Johnston's Hekate Soteira and possibly von Rudloff's book (though Johnston's review here is probably important to bear in mind.

As far as Iamblichus goes, Ronan is also great, but I've been impressed with Gregory Shaw's book Theurgy and the Soul: the neoplatonism of Iamblichus, as well as Emma C Clarke's Iamblichus' De mysteriis : a manifesto of the miraculous. The latter is less accessible than the Shaw, but makes some interesting points. The price of the Clarke is also prohibitive, but access to academic libraries is a great boon.

XK -- I wonder about the extent to which the space for things to go imperfectly, or for manifestation to be incomplete is complicated by the psychodynamics of training. Certainly, in the bad experiences I've had in this area, the individuals concerned were also significant figures in their community and providing a lot of intensive training to those in their groups. It's not my brief to defend them, but the pressure to stay on top of the pedestal was probably quite strong. Then again, it's dumb to establish yourself as TEH GRATE SUPER-PRIESTESS incapable of failure.

I don't really want to blame the individuals concerned, as I think those human failings were magnified by a system of training that was invented whole cloth in the early/mid 20th century and has sort of resisted development and change since. That system has many, many benefits, but would be improved immeasurably if we were capable of confronting or learning from our mistakes rather than rewriting and ignoring the past. In fact, it's symptomatic of many of the problems that confront modern pagan magical practice, the tension between remaining authentic to one's experience & reforming practice in line with them while keeping an eye on the tradition from which one comes.

In the face of those problems, it's something of a relief to be working with people who are serious and engaged with such work, and even more heartening to see that others are too.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:57 / 06.08.07
I will look up the book trouser, thank you. The idea of the body as encultured history has some parallels to the idea of Taoist relationships to the body as landscape, which must make the whole notion of chinese medicine easier to learn, parts of the body not only become a memory device, but bodily movements, dances, martial arts become a landscape of encultured conception, an ancestral memory, relationship to body and its expression as culture, philosophy and metaphysics become a living breathing experience.
 
 
Unconditional Love
23:44 / 06.08.07
Live, i do not think i would ever start writing a thing if i put thoughts together first, i live in a very well structured environment with alot of space and tidiness, but my mind is like me at the center of a cyclone grabbing bits of thoughts from here and there and seeing how they come together and what they form, mostly thats a mess, but i have to see where they go and what comes from them. Seriously it would be a nightmare to post here with preparation because my posts would be overly long without the criticism that they need from others, to cue me in to where i may be making misrepresentation of the subjects i am relating too at that given time. Different view points make me go away and think things through a bit more, until the next time i need those different points to rethink and change focus.

Gypsy, their is another factor, Africa had various forms of slavery involved in the community structure before European slavers, so a broader remit is to inquire how slavery has operated with religions as a worldwide phenomena rather than looking at Africa as a specific area. To see if cultures of the past and those whom have encountered it in the present that contain a notion of religious possession have religious structures which may or may not support slavery and social authority consciously or indirectly through a reference of framing belief, but also how that belief is experienced by practitioners of a religion. A comparison to the liberating effects of religious possession would also make a good contrast, it may well be that possession is the liberator.


So for example, How is the notion of divine authority embodied, what does the notion of divine will/authority imply in its relation to the human body? Some of it seems to come down to how human beings perceive spirit/divinity as power or powers. How then does that idea of power or powers feed into a social structure, at what point does human expression towards that power create an expectant or accepted reaction to reinforce that notion of power as a social display of divinity. Their seems to me to be an interplay between perceptions and relationships to cultural forces that are given life by the social context of human interactions.

Since i am not doing too much with my life at present a degree in religious studies would pass the time, and the whole area interests me enough to warrant study, coming by the money will be another matter.
 
 
shockoftheother
07:49 / 07.08.07
Wolfangel --

Africa had various forms of slavery involved in the community structure before European slavers, so a broader remit is to inquire how slavery has operated with religions as a worldwide phenomena rather than looking at Africa as a specific area. To see if cultures of the past and those whom have encountered it in the present that contain a notion of religious possession have religious structures which may or may not support slavery and social authority consciously or indirectly through a reference of framing belief, but also how that belief is experienced by practitioners of a religion. A comparison to the liberating effects of religious possession would also make a good contrast, it may well be that possession is the liberator.

You seem - to me, and with the caveat that I'm new around these parts and don't know any of you as well as I probably should - to be operating under these assumptions:

(a) That the dynamics of possession operate along the same lines as those of slavery.
(b) That all religious practices are to be read as signifiers of wider cultural or economic trends.

I don't think either of these positions are unproblematic. Firstly I'd suggest reading Gypsy Lantern's response above, where he points out that such a dynamic is not one he has encountered in his work with les mystères, and then reading the other responses on this thread. I think you'll find the view from most of the people who do this work on a regular basis dissents from the idea of a slave relationship, especially since - in the case of invited possession, at least - it is the apogee of an act of devotion. Perhaps you're reading the language of D/s as implying some sort of non-consensual relationship, which is not what I read as being implicated above - certainly, the relationship can push beyond the bounds of what's comfortable or convenient, but this is in a consensual, ethical and intellectual framework very different from slavery.

One thing that is apparent is that if possession in African diasporic religion were to be read purely as a sort of mimetic response to slavery, one would expect possession to be feared, reviled or at the very least looked on as something other than a great privilege, yet this is nowhere the case. Unless you want to accuse everyone of a sort of mystical Stockholm syndrome, it's important to take that into account.

As far as assumption (b) goes, while I don't think it's wrong to read religious events as culturally produced, I do tread warily over a sort of post-Marxist euhemerism that views any mystical element in religion as a response to the strictures of the times that are seen to produce them.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
08:08 / 07.08.07
Some further info on the Hauka:

The Hauka are the subject of Jean Rouch's enthnographic film Les Maîtres Fous - see this discussion and a tribute to Rouch by Paul Stoller. Rouch was asked by a group of Hauka to make the film, which shows possession by various spirits embodying the colonial powers - the governor-general, the doctor's wife, the engineer, etc (apparently the Hauka asked for the film to be made so they could use it in future possession ceremonies). The Hauka movement was surpressed by both the French in Niger and the British in Ghana, with the support of "traditional" chiefs who feared the popularity of the Hauka movement. Accounts of the early development of the Hauka movement do tend to stress that they were seen as being opposed to the traditional gods and the Songhay priesthood - and that it was Songhay priests who first reported the first Hauka adherents to the French authorities, who jailed them. Rouch's own account of the early days of the Hauka includes a description of how a group of Hauka were publically humiliated by the commandant of a jail, one Major Croccichia, and what followed after:

“When they were in jail, one man became possessed and said, “I am a new Hauka, I am Corsasi (the wicked major). The name of the district commissioner was Crocchicia, which is a Corsican name, and the man said, “I am Corsasi, I’m stronger then all the other Hauka, we have to break out of jail.” The jail walls were mud; they broke jail, went outside shouting, and Crocchicia had to use all his guards to keep them quiet. They were kept in jail for two months and then sent back to their own village. But when they went back, the cult increased very
quickly.


Here's some extracts from Stoller's description of the Hauka possession as documented by Rouch:

"The music begins with the wail of the monochord violin and the syncopated thumps of gourd drums played like bongos. The Hauka mediums form a circle. They march counter clockwise to the rapid beat – sounds that beckon the spirits. Some of them wear pith helmets. Some crack whips fashioned from automobile fan-belts. A shrill whistle pierces the air. Some of the penitents attempt to join the medium dancers, but they are expelled from the circle by Mounkaiba’s (the officiating priest) sentries, who carry wooden rifles. Their “sinful” presence among the dancers could ruin the ceremony. As the music pulses in the background, the first Hauka, Kapral Gardi, arrives. He belly flops to the ground, then jumps to attention. He salutes people in the audience and is given a red sash – his trademark. He collects the wooden rifles, which is his job in this military theatre of the absurd. ... One of the spirits, Commandant Mugu, the wicked major torches his clothing. Even though his shirt is consumed by fire, his flesh is miraculously spared. Rouch introduces us to other Hauka; General Malia,, the general of the red sea; Madame Lokotoro the doctors wife; Gomno, the governor general; Samkaki, the truck driver; Chemoko, the son of the corporal of the guard."

Rouch's film was banned from being shown in Britain and the Gold Coast, because it depicted cruelty to animals and "insulted the queen". It was also denounced by Africans who feared that it would reinforce racist stereotypes.

Go here for links to clips of the film on YouTube. Please note that this film contains animal sacrifice.
 
 
Stigma Enigma
08:18 / 07.08.07
Are your hands getting dirty? Do your muscles ache? Are you spending an appreciable amount of time doing a good, simple, mundane task which will ground you and perhaps help to take you out of the rather unhealthy headspace you seem to be inhabiting?

Sarcasm. For what you describe...rigorous exercise to the point of self-mortification, daily practice of tai chi, hathi yoga, pranayama, zazen.

And actually I did take 10 days off from magical work, in exchange for mysticism.

In closing, I have always admired your posts. =)
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:28 / 07.08.07
Sabine's reflection: All of your posts sound like you are trying to impress someone with all the great feats of magic and mysticism that you manage to cram into your crazy magical life. It's really annoying. Stop it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:33 / 07.08.07
Yeah, hate to say it dude but GL is right. You sound like you're trying to impress us with your superamzing feats and commitment. I can's speak for anyone else here but I can tell you that you're not impressing me. I know a lot of committed, hardworking people and you just come off like a bit of an exhibitionist. Please just chill out.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
09:38 / 07.08.07
Also:

rigorous exercise to the point of self-mortification, daily practice of tai chi, hathi yoga, pranayama, zazen.

Does not get close or even scratch the surface of the benefits you might get from a simple bit of gardening. Which is why it was suggested. The suggestion was to step away from magic for a period - maybe a couple of months - to get yourself out of the fairly unhealthy state of mind that, from the evidence of your posts, the magic seems to have got you into.

The suggestion was not to knock yourself out with more exercises upon exercises. The fact that you are touting ten days off magical practice to focus on mysticism (as if there is a difference, but that's besides the point) as an example of giving yourself a break seems to underline the point being made. Just step away from this bollocks. Examine why you feel you need it in your life? Look objectively at what engaging with these areas may or may not be contributing to your health and happiness. Try to identify unhealthy loops you get caught in or how your way of engaging with this material may be problematic. It will do you good and you will be a better magician for it. Magic is not a race. You don't have to knock yourself out. Usually, in the times when we are trying to cram our lives full of exercises and activities and sorcery, we are totally overlooking the simple magic that is life. Being alive. Living and breathing. Engaging the senses. Working in the garden, for instance, can remind you of stuff like that.
 
 
Ticker
13:35 / 07.08.07
XK -- I wonder about the extent to which the space for things to go imperfectly, or for manifestation to be incomplete is complicated by the psychodynamics of training. Certainly, in the bad experiences I've had in this area, the individuals concerned were also significant figures in their community and providing a lot of intensive training to those in their groups. It's not my brief to defend them, but the pressure to stay on top of the pedestal was probably quite strong. Then again, it's dumb to establish yourself as TEH GRATE SUPER-PRIESTESS incapable of failure.

I'd like to see more leaders being open enough to use their process as a teaching model. The confidence and integrity to invite that review is just as powerful (if not moreso) as being TGSP. It's also a metric shit load more beneficial in the long run.

I'm also a bit wary of why some groups are utilizing possession. In some cases I can clearly see the nuturing direct relationship to the Divine within the community such as the group I spent time with on sunday. In others there appears to be the dynamic you, shockoftheother, mentioned from your experience of the misuse of the mantle of the Divine to promote a not so divine agenda or to prop up authority. This freaks me the fuck out. How a practitioner could comfortably give lip service to horsing the Deity and not see it as a really really bad action raises some nasty questions. Do they believe it is not offensive to the Deity and the community? How is this honoring the sacred and not making a mockery of other people's faith in the practitioner? How many layers of lies and delusions need to be going on withing the practitioner and possibly the group to foster this?

what is the obligation of the community member to hold up accountability? do we leave reprecussions to the Deity?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:25 / 07.08.07
Inkwitch
How a practitioner could comfortably give lip service to horsing the Deity and not see it as a really really bad action raises some nasty questions. Do they believe it is not offensive to the Deity and the community?

Well, that's a tricky one - and one that cuts to the heart of the rituals in Wicca (for example) where the High Priestess speaks as the Goddess. Like Shock, I've experienced this "sacred" moment being used to legitimate/bolster up a priestesses' authority in a matter - almost to the point where it becomes "well if you don't accept my word on this matter, you'd better listen to what the goddess has to say - She agrees with me." (quelle surprise). It can be difficult to challenge this, particularly if one's invested a lot in accepting the wisdom etc., of an authority figure - and mounting a challenge of course can bring up accusations that you're questioning not only the interpretation of a particular issue, but also the "magical competancy" of the Priestess, if not the word of the Goddess herself! But such appeals to divine authority are all too common in contemporary paganisms and occult groups - particularly where the ability to bring through the goddess (for example) is hierarchicalised, rather than something anyone can (potentially) do.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone challenge a "possession" in situ - i.e. step up to the person(s) involved and denounce them as "faking it" - or less confrontationally, opine that "so-and-so" needs more help in bringing the goddess through.
 
 
grant
15:25 / 07.08.07
I don't think I've ever seen anyone challenge a "possession" in situ

In Mama Lola, Karen Brown actually describes this happening as sort of par-for-the-course in Mama Lola's "parties," and I think in rituals in Haiti - there was generally some kind of brief test horses underwent to ensure they weren't just delusional or hoaxing. This probably functioned both to test the person who was horsing and to protect the ritual as a whole from challenges of the sort you're describing.
 
 
Ticker
15:32 / 07.08.07
I'm thinking there has to be a way to implement testing as part of the process as a matter of course so it isn't a finger pointing ego festival.

how is testing conducted in Vodun and other faiths? As matter of course or upon challenge? I'm assuming matter of course?

But such appeals to divine authority are all too common in contemporary paganisms and occult groups - particularly where the ability to bring through the goddess (for example) is hierarchicalised, rather than something anyone can (potentially) do.

I'm witnessing people claiming possession as proof of skill and suspect ego bolstering when I really think their lack of training in what shockoftheother details as discerning aspecting, shadowing, inspiration, and full possession may be partially to blame. In communites with skilled folk who are actually doing this successfully there seems to be a rock star status to want to be able to do it too. It's the misuse of the mantle of Divine Authority and its use as a part of an identity kit that upsets me.

I'm possibly over protective of sacred communion and feel it is horrible to have people's faith exploited.
 
 
Ticker
15:45 / 07.08.07
ah x-post with grant.

This probably functioned both to test the person who was horsing and to protect the ritual as a whole from challenges of the sort you're describing.

this is why I'd like to see testing widely implented.
 
 
grant
16:34 / 07.08.07
I'm wondering now about the Catholic Mass, which functions parallel to this (possession) in some ways (though not all), and is old enough and formal enough to include some kinds of symbolic gestures toward most of these things. Not sure it fits, though.

In the Mass, the priest ceremonially washes himself, then becomes a conduit for Jesus in the act of transubstantiation - this, by the way, is why it's so important that priests be celibate, because they have to stand between this world and the next.

The words at this point in the ritual are "Through Him, with Him, in Him - in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honor is Yours, Almighty Father" - in other words, the celebrant is entering union with God, is in God. And vice-versa.

And immediately after, the congregation is meant to absorb the Body of Christ into itself. Hmm.

I can't see a place where a challenge or test might be issued - maybe that's a key difference. The Authority is beyond reproach.

There are notes on Epiclesis here, and its place in the Liturgy of the Eucharist here.
 
 
Stigma Enigma
17:33 / 07.08.07
*deep breath*

I meant no ego. My apologies. I am not trying to show off anything.

I want to make clear that I got in too deep and am humble enough to say I couldn't handle all that, hence the 6 day hospital stay.

I just don't want my tone to be misconstrued. If there's any problem with posting on a discussion board, its that there is a certain amount of tone and emotion lost in translation.

If we were face to face or even communicating instantaneously I hope I would not come across as an arrogant asshole. I don't think I would judging by the reactions of those I know in person. I feel the need to defend myself, is all. I meant no harm or disrespect of egomaniacism.
 
 
Stigma Enigma
17:33 / 07.08.07
OR egomaniacism
 
 
Stigma Enigma
17:45 / 07.08.07
to end the tangent, however...

in my case, possession was like a blind frenzy, like a night of heavy drinking and stumbling through your surroundings like a whirling dervish. Its like becoming a werewolf...the moon is out and suddenly you're this ravenous being with insatiable cravings...yet the next morning you're just some naked person laying alone in a field wondering what the hell happened the last 8 hours, or in my case an 18 hour Lorazepam induced blackout.

Whereas, inspiration I am still conscious somewhat of myself and my part in the creation. And when I'm inspired I usually still have the free will to escape from the overriding spirit (not so in possession...complete immersion, for me.)
Say I am writing a song that tells the story of Jonah Hex (true story.) The first verse I introduce the character, inspired by his story and recent adventures. The chorus comes in and he rides me and I become him, which strengthens the intensity of the song. Then shift back to myself, the story teller.

Funny thing about music is developing your own style requires so much practice with various influences that you become a mega-amalgamation of everything you have ever listened to that stuck in the recesses of the mind. But I think music in particular is a perfect vehicle for discussing the subject matter of the thread, and I just wanted to introduce that concept.

Ego supressing,

Sabin's Reflection
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:32 / 07.08.07
If i remember correctly one of the tests for possession by the ghedes/Barons in vodou is the drinking of peppered rum. I have actually done my research on these traditions thou it was 4 years ago now. In those 4 years i have explored a variety of other African traditions as well and i am still exploring ancestor veneration at this present moment.

I need to raise another point, its related to politics, which makes it messy and probably belongs on another thread other than this one, but is there a way to examine these phenomena without a perceived political bias? Or is it a case that every practitioner brings politics to there practice? Its something i try to avoid, but often end up doing. i wonder what for example differing traditions seem to embody from a political view point, ie what there founders loaded them with from there own personal opinions, for example Crowley seems to fit libertarian agendas very easily and some anarchist ones as well. Christianity also seems divided politically, how then does this present itself to the practitioners in practicing are they accepting a certain kind of politics into themselves, that is then given a mental and bodily identity? The politically possessed.
 
 
illmatic
06:01 / 08.08.07
I can't see the connection between politics and possession that you are making. "Politically possessed" sounds like your own subjective linkage to me. I do think though there is almost always a connection between the politics - or perhaps better, ideology - of any given culture and the spiritual practices it produces. It's the purpose of the "Magick & Context" thread to explore these sort of things. However, just because you can see ideological/cultural trends in a practice doesn't mean it's practitioners are "possessed" in the sense that everyone else in this thread is talking about, unless I misunderstand you.

"Possession" as a phenomena itself is pretty political, loci for all sorts of fears of loss of control and so on, this has been discussed pretty extensively upthread.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
09:03 / 08.08.07
Wolfangel
Perhaps you could illustrate what you mean with an example? So, how, for instance, do you view the relationship between vodou and Haitian politics, given that the 1791 rebellion is popularly said to have been fomented by a houngan named Boukman? How do you account for the role played by houngans in supporting the Duvalier regime?
 
 
EmberLeo
11:19 / 08.08.07
I'm not sure he's referring to national politics, so much as interpersonal politics - group politics?

At least, that's what I assummed, because it makes plenty of sense that way, especially in the context mentioned above of the whole misrepresentation, fear of failure, etc.

--Ember--
 
 
Ticker
15:03 / 08.08.07
a very simple & honest article about aspecting/possession

I really liked the sincere tone of the article. It seemed to me a very good base point for the work in neo pagan/pagan context but again I'd like to see some testing built in.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
15:16 / 08.08.07
That's an interesting article, inky. I particularly liked this comment:

Some people don't like to have a lot of personal attention afterward, so they may say they're fine in an attempt to get their tender to back off. It's the job of the tender to give them the space they need, and still stick with them until they're really convinced the person capable of functioning normally again.

I may have said this before on this thread, but I have generally found that having a trusted person with me when I'm doing possession work -someone who I can rely on to "bring me back" as it were, actually helps me go surrender to the presence of the deity more fully and intensely.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:13 / 08.08.07
Haitian history is a little more complex than the Boukman story as i am sure you are aware,Some Dates Concerning the Haitian Revolution More in depth discussion here Revolutionary War Popular myth serves a purpose to gather people around a central structure, it has a purpose to rally people, it is not the whole truth in any sense but a both literal and metaphorical one. Politics like religion uses symbols, metaphors, gesture and story to create narrative and a personal or social sense of common identity, those symbols sets when mimicked carry the memetic structure into the participants. The raised arm of fascism is as much a mudra as the common prayer gesture, but they also act as an anchor for a whole host of connotations and memory associations.

In the culture i grew up in this process started at a group level in the assembly hall at school and if memory serves me well play school, Physical action is the first point of call as most young children don't develop the awareness to mimic symbol sets without repetition, its easier for the body to maintain knowledge through bodily intelligence.

Another underplayed influence in the revolution of Haiti is this lot Masonic lodges Martinez Pasqually and le Chevaliers Elus Coens

Freemasonry understands the principle put forth above quite well in the structure of its ritual initiations based upon assuming uncomfortable postures for extended periods of time to create a trance like state as information is recieved. Discomfort similar to being crossed legged on a cold wooden floor for a long period of time allows the body to absorb ideas, with the eyes closed the words are subsumed into the skin more easily.

The idea of the politically possessed is really just a reformulation of ideas put forth by Ramsey dukes in his Little Book of Demons. if we remain unconscious of how the body receives information we place all of our focus on our mind and the body assumes the information unconsciously, bring a body to a point of discomfort,pain , exhaustion or hyper distraction and you have a body like a blank sheet ready to be written upon as the mind distracts from the process or contributes if it is aware of the body's reception. Possession by memes or spirits it could be argued gives words, concepts, society, religion, culture, politics, flesh to play in.

Consider what senses are engaged in traditional possession or theatre is it not all the senses that are possessed? is the mind captured in the narrative of its own experience?

Is everyday life not a series of narratives by which we become possessed? The mechanisms are encultured at an early age, narrative is as much sensory as it is symbol.

In the relationship between self and other, god not god, its the process of relating that defines views of self and other, the process is in the possession of relationships maintained by habit and communal reenactment.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:52 / 08.08.07
Alot of this is coming from my own experiences with ritualistic devotion and medium like experiences had during these. i guess i am attempting to process these spiritual experiences in non spiritual ways to see if there are other explanations. So i look into my memory and cultural ritual to understand this and then look at modern mechanisms and metaphors for this process while cross referencing other parts of my adult life, politics, society etc.

Childhood to me seems like the western equivalent of beginners mind, even thou i view it with adult eyes, my childhood seems to offer perspectives on things my information soaked brain cannot sometimes glimpse or see.
 
 
illmatic
21:51 / 08.08.07
That is a good article. Would it be wrong to say that the interest in this practice is growing? With the growth of the Northern trad and more general awareness of African diasporia religions etc. It certainly seems much more widely discussed than I remember from my "early days" - but then, suppose it's always been present in Wicca and so forth but I was too bloody ignorant to take much of an interest in that. Possibly this is a sign of pagan communities becoming more viable?

I found the mention of automatic writing interesting as it occurred to me that channeling might be considered a form of possession. I've read concerning channeling that as the practice continues the writer gets more caught up in it, and the "revelatory" factor, it's newness, drops off, and the writer's ego gets more involved. This perhaps relates to your comments upthread, XK.
 
  

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