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Rosie:
I find the assumption that “since Voodoo was born during times of slavery, its practitioners must be naturally submissive” way of thinking to be offensive in the extreme.
*forehead smack* Yes, that would be pretty darned offensive, but that's not what I meant. I'm sorry to have phrased it so awkwardly. Let's see if I can explain my thoughts without giving you the impression that I'm a racist idiot. 
Perhaps a bit of reading on the Haitian Revolution or the Civil Rights Movement in the Southern U.S. would clarify things somewhat.
I've read a bit on both. I admit, I'm no expert, but I'm not totally ignorant, I swear!
I didn't meant that Vodouisants are somehow naturally inclined to be subservient. I was merely trying to express my perception that Voodoo - especially Hatian Vodou - developed in a pretty damned harsh environment (I'm including the Revolution here - a war for survival is about as harsh as it gets), and as Western traditions go, it's hardly a luxurious path to follow. The definition of "hardship" changes dramatically from one context to another, as does the definition of "scary".
I mean, I'm a post-feminist middle-class white girl raised by hippies in sprawling suburbia in one of the nicest climates both politically and environmentally that exist in the country today. My understanding of how much control I do or don't have over things like my own safety, personal rights, autonomy, etc. are based on having most of those things handed to me on a silver platter, not fighting tooth and nail for them.
It's exactly the sort of thing that has me wondering regularly why Ghede gives me the time of day, actually. I worry constantly that I cannot help but behave disrespectfully to any and all authority figures (including the gods) who interact with me. Certain people do indeed seem to find me disrespectful on a regular basis, but so far all the gods I have talked to have said that my honesty is refreshing and my sincerity more than makes up for my lack of manners, and yes, They really do want my attention.
I was terrified of Shango for the longest time until He came through the Mama and had a long talk with me about it. I no longer remember what He said, but I relaxed immediately and I've been quite fond of Him ever since.
Oddly enough it's Freya, rather than Ghede, who has been instructing me in the value of death/blood sacrifice of animals (which is something we do not practice in our Umbanda house).
Our relationship is not really a dominant / submissive dynamic, as She is part of who I am. We reflect each other.
That sounds a great deal more like what I ...er ... I now hesitate to say "expect"... from a Deity relationship, and much more what I experience with the Vanir and with Ghede. I really think in this case that it's important to remember that Odin is not my Head spirit. ("Esprit met Tet"? What would you call a non-lwa head spirit?)
As xk said: the D/s model [was] so we could look at modern power dynamics and trust issues. I'm afraid it has become a distraction rather than useful at this point.
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Grant:
So, uh, how do you keep the two things separate? Or do you?
About how I keep two different social groups sepparate, really. I mean the community events occur in different contexts on different days (though with a surprising amount of overlap in people). When it's in my space I invite who I want to see with an understanding that anyone who accepts my invitation is expected to behave respectfully towards my other guests. If two guests demonstrate an inability to get along, I send them away on an immediate basis and never invite them over at the same time again. If I percieve the problem as being mutual, I keep that in mind. If one friend hands me an ultimatum to choose between them, that's the friend that gets dropped. I don't handle hospitality with the gods all that differently than I handle hospitality with humans. All my relationships are personal just as they would be with human friends and family.
is that Umbanda work informed by New Orleans Voodoo or other, more "local" influences?
I'm not in Brazil, I'm in California Yes, we are informed, as I understand it, by all Afro-Diasporic religious sources, but with an understanding that only Umbanda is Umbanda, and that Candomble has more in common than the others, etc. etc. Umbanda is kind of an odd bird as Afro-Diasporic religion goes - it's a comparatively young blend of Candomble and Brazilian Spiritism. It is, in many ways, "softer" than the other Afro-Diasporic traditions.
I have a perception that (at least around here) Santeria and Hatian Vodou are rather more strict than Candomble and New Orleans Voodoo, respectively. I get this largely from the interactions I have had with practicioners, rather than from what I have read in books about what the traditions themselves are. Santeros, more than the others, have been inclined to tell me how everything I understand is all wrong, and I shouldn't presume to interact with the Orixa at all. Hatian-style Vodouisants haven't been anywhere near as harsh, but have been much less eclectic in their own practices than the New Orleans-style Vodouisants I have talked to.
I have yet to have the opportunity to interact directly with Umbandists not of my house, or of any practicioners of the other Afro-Diasporic traditions.
Do the Norse fellas ever pop up during your Umbanda work?
One of the things we have in our house which, as I understand it, isn't unusual in Umbanda, is an acceptance of what we call "World Lines". At certain events, other powers may be called after the Orixa (who are the Major powers in our House) and the Lwa (who hold the next greatest significance).
The way we happen to do it is that each world line is represented by whichever individual from that culture first made the push to work with the House. When that power is called, They may, in turn, ask the Mama for permission to bring others of the same line. Because there are so many people who work with the Norse powers in our house, the Norse line actually has three officially seated powers: Odin is considered the official head of the line, and Freyr and Freya are both seated in Their own rights. I've also seen Frigga, Tyr, and Loki show up at Odin's request.
Our Mama is polynesian, and has a strong connection with Pele, so another of the lines respected in our house is that of the Pacific Islands.
Personally I actually find I prefer the African-Only events, just because the Vanir are so much more comfortable on Their own turf, in my experience. But Odin really, really likes to wander and seems to have made some fairly interesting agreements with Eleggua. What I find interesting is that it wasn't actually the Heathens who brought Odin to the House - they already had a place to honor Odin and felt no need for another. It was Odin dropping in on the non-Heathen mediums that brought it to the old Mama's attention!
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xk:
I find it rather interesting that Mordant's feedback group, for the most part, gave hir a hardtime about what ze viewed as a positive experience and EmberLeo's did not clearly understand her discomfort around what she viewed as a negative experience. This seems to almost force the person to develop inner judgement while seeking more compatable external peer groups.
I noticed the same thing, and find it pretty odd, actually. But I'm reasonably fond of Devil's Advocates in an discussion, when simple differences of perspective aren't handy, so this is doing quite well for me, really.
It has a side-affect of requiring me to get better and better at articulating what, exactly, my problem is.
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I feel that it’s slightly out of order to court possession whilst simultaneously trying to maintain control over what happens, to hold the upper hand, or to hold the invited (or uninvited) powers to contractual obligations. --rosie x
"But... but... but... that's what everyone TELLS us we should do!" -- Mordant
Indeed - that's exactly what both the Mama of my House AND my Gythia tell me. They just have differing oppinions on the nature of potential contracts, and how said contracts are to be created.
if an individual feels powerless, victimised, betrayed and confused, then why not consider a few modifications to the practice, which will help move things into a more constructive and positive space? - Rosie
Certainly! But you must understand that "you shouldn't have any control" doesn't make me feel less powerless.
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I do want to thank you all for volunteering your perspectives. This discussion has done more for me towards resolving things than all my previous efforts combined, as far as I can tell. While I'm content to discuss things in a more general sense, I sort of feel done with the topic of my specific experience with Odin last February for now.
Indeed, I'd much rather discuss my far more plentiful positive experiences, if we're going to keep discuss ing my experiences at all.
--Ember-- |
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