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Invited possession/horsing and channeling/divine inspiration.

 
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:36 / 11.10.07
Thanks for all that, Ember, it's very interesting. Don't have much to comment on, except maybe this bit:

The Norse context I experience has far fewer events, fewer rules and guidelines, but similar expectations - fewer guidelines means we tend to have more warders planned to handle whatever comes up ... I hear complaints from low-church Heathens that we're being too ritualistic, but those rituals are to establish more precise control that they get pretty damned unhappy if we don't have.

I would have said, from my perspective of little study and minute experience, that such safeguards are more important in a heathen context, at least at the current juncture. Unlike the Lwa, say, our Gods have not been regularly worked with let alone horsed for many generations. (It's only been relatively recently that this kind of interaction has been creeping back in, starting I guess with Hrafnar's work.) They therefore seem to have worse... I want to say "table manners," which is cheeky but kind of sketches out what I mean.
 
 
Ticker
21:04 / 11.10.07
Great and useful stuff, Ember, thank you. I'm short on time so more questions and pondering tomorrow I suspect.
 
 
EmberLeo
03:18 / 12.10.07
Aunt Beast, I'm in Hrafnar and Seidhjallr, in case I didn't make that clear. I'm not a member of the Troth, however - my focus is more local.

--Ember--
 
 
EmberLeo
03:55 / 12.10.07
Oh yes, and back to the question I missed:

Can you talk more about how your group structures this, Ember?

Okay, so once again, I'm in multiple groups, and can only tell you my own experience [insert appropriate disclaimer here]

My experience of the structure of posession rituals in our Heathen context (casually called "God Parties", though I prefer to avoid the word "party" in this context, since it tends to lead to bad impressions).

There are two major Heathen Posessory events held by Hrafnar each year. One for Odin in January, which lately has been more of an All-thing, and one in May focused on the Vanir. I run a group called the Vanic Conspiracy that holds much smaller Vanic devotionals about four times a year. Both the VC and Hrafnar have some other events that allow for, but do not require the physical presence of our gods. And then also Seidhjallr (and, I'm sure other Seidh groups) encounter gods posessessing the seer in the chair if a question is asked along those lines.

For the larger Posessory-focused events, there's a fair amount of structure as Heathen things go. The Host sets the boundaries both ahead of time in the wording of the invitation and explanation, and during the ritual by setting space, announcing things, asking who wants to avoid trance, pointing out who the warders are, and leading the schedule of invocations. There may or may not be a designated singer to lead the music, or a designated medium to get the ball rolling for each deity called.

The warding team confers ahead of time as to who intends to stay completely grounded and who of the more experienced switch-hitters may take turns being in trance for a shorter time before being brought out for their warder shift. If the crowd is large enough to warrant it, specific plans are made to establish who has the ultimate say in the warding team (this person must be someone who stays grounded the whole time), and what areas each of the warders will be focusing on (god wrangling, human wrangling, kitchen guarding, whatever else needs doing.)

Once the preliminary information has been passed amongst the parties involved, and the total newbies and those with sensitivities have been brought to the attention of the warding team, the Host begins the process of the ritual itself. This generally involves setting space, and then welcoming each god to join us in turn by invoking them with words, poetry, and/or galdr, and then having the group sing songs. Whoever finds themselves compelled by the presence of that deity will generally take on regalia indicating this. Anybody the wranglers or more experienced mediums see wavering will be handled appropriately - encouraged and assisted if they are up for trance, or helped to stay grounded if they're not.

Once everyone has been thoroughly invoked, there's usually a period of time where they can all mingle with eachother and the humans, answering questions, making deals, and generally being happy we're all together.

And then, when things begin to wind down, the warders go about letting each of the gods still present that we are on the Last Round (that is, of drinks). That's when we remind them to please take any harms - and all the alcohol - away when They leave. When it's time to go, the warders go around again helping anyone who hasn't yet grounded out to release, with key words like "The Hour Grows Late", drinks of water, salt or sour salt, removing regalia, and otherwise going about returning each of the mediums to their Full Self.

Then, once everybody is back and human again, it's time to thank all the gods for having come to bless us, and close up the space.

After that, everyone is encouraged to stay and debrief, drink lots of non-alcoholic liquid, and eat protien or complex carbohydrates as needed.

For smaller events like we hold in the Vanic Conspiracy, we have experimented a bit with the details. We're a bit less formal with the series of steps, but it all comes out about the same. Sometimes we pass a horn and commune with each deity quietly instead of singing as a group for the invocation phase, but ultimately the process is about the same.

For Oracular Seidh, only the seer who is active in the chair should be doing any kind of posessory work. The Guide is in charge of the ritual, and the warding team is focused on the space and the participants rather than the Seer as a medium.

For trance-allowing rituals where the trance is not the focus, the gods may come settle on those who work with Them closely either during the ritual, or in general, but if They detract from the intentional focus of the event, that is treated as a problem to be solved by the warding types. Peer pressure both between humans and between gods tends to prevent issues in this area - Frigga does not appreciate it when Hospitality is abused, and Freya does not appreciate it when a Ritual is disrupted for no good reason. That's usually not formally set up, though - it generally doesn't need to be.

----------------

In the Umbanda house what the Mama says is always the final word. As she tells us, "No Mama, no Floor, NO TRANCE." That said, she does have methods and ways of running things that are usually fairly consistant, and people she delegates specific tasks to as a matter of course.

As a general rule the music is nearly constant, and everyone but Senior Mediums and folks with known Head Spirits are brought back to Self before we move on to calling the next power (e.g. an Oxossi-head may be allowed to stay out for specifically Oxossi while others are brought back out of trance after we finish singing those songs, but that same Oxossi-head would generally be brought out of trance for Oxun before we moved on to calling Yemaya even if she never works with Yemaya.) The flexibility of this rule depends on the needs of the occasion, the relationship between the power we just finished calling and the power we're about to call, the number of available mediums and warders on the floor, and the track record of behavior when that power has been called in the past. Again, the final say is always Mama's.

Anybody who isn't actively in trance is essentially helping ward. We tend to have a few people who are specifically never going out who do more warding, as well as some experienced switch-hitters who are more warding focused when they aren't in trance, and a couple of designated warders.

Since in many ways the ritual is driven by the music, a lot of the structure is manifested in the operations of the Chorus. We have designated lead singers (of which I am one) and drummers to keep the music flowing as constantly as possible, and there is no long phase of discussion without music for a Bembe. There is sometimes such a phase during a more focused Devotional that is held for only one or a few powers at a time, rather than a longer, more complex list. And at a Devotional there is usually a no-music phase called Consulto where requests to speak with specific powers may be made, and a medium who works strongly with that power will bring them down for a private conversation. At that time, only designated mediums, as chosen by the Mama, may be in trance. All others are brought out of trance and grounded out with water and cues.

In none of these settings is it ever up to a posessed horse to decide the course of the ritual. Requests for more time or a change of how something is handled can be - and often are - made. But the decision to go ahead and do something like that is always up to a human authority whose job is to keep track of all the variables, not just that one Power's agenda. If Mama is not actively holding the floor, she has specifically delegated the task to a grounded individual of her choice.

And of course, all of these guidelines are subject to change if the Mama sees reason to implement something better.

--Ember--
 
 
Ticker
16:18 / 12.10.07
Ember, you mentioned some uncomfortable human interaction around claims of possession or issues around messages delivered? Could you give a general sketch of that social interaction?
 
 
EmberLeo
18:33 / 12.10.07
Ngh.

It's considered extremely rude to accuse somebody of intentional "Horse Talk" of course. But it's totally reasonable to acknowledge different levels of trance, and say "I don't know how far out they were, so I take this with a grain of salt, but Ogun said..." or, far more often "Ember's Freya told me X." with the innate understanding that this means Ember's brain filters, knowledge, and understanding are all potential factors in what Freya says through her.

We have some mediums whose work is trusted a less than others, because they have a tendancy to make extreme pronouncements with an insufficient track record of accuracy, or because they tend to act out a great deal no matter who they are in a way that is percieved as prideful and self-serving, attention-hungry, or ...how to put this - just taking the excuse of "It wasn't me!".

By itself, this is just inevitable - not everyone has the same level of ability to remove themselves from the picture, and everyone has different subconcious motivations. Folks with lower self-esteem are perhaps more likely to feel a strong need for folks to percieve them as important, and will act accordingly whether they're in a trance or not, and carrying a god is pretty important, isn't it?

The difficulty is when somebody turns that doubt into a rumor storm, and accuses somebody of outright fraud on the grounds that they don't believe a particular power would ever act a certain way - usually because that way is either too prideful, too modern, or - in my case - too humorous. It's particularly problematic when they take the opportunity to tell everyone but the person they have a problem with, even to the extent of spreading their oppinions outside the local community.

I had people I've never met making derisive remarks about my work because of a... misunderstanding... with a particular person who didn't take her concerns to me until all but forced to by mutual friends, but went about spreading her oppinions to folks out of town who proceeded to go on about how much bullshit it was (having only her description to go by), and how it gives California Heathens a bad name (even though I didn't even call myself Heathen at the time), and other such things. I finally managed to call a few of them on it, pointing out that nobody who felt so free to rant about me had yet to actually hear my side of the story, and the known Lokean who was spreading the rumors had intruded on a gathering she hadn't actually been invited to - it wasn't a public ritual or anything, it was just several of us god workers giving the gods a mellow opportunity to gather around a campfire, because we'd all felt the push earlier in the day that They wanted it.

To be fair - the Lokean in question has PTSD which had only recently been diagnosed, and she was still learning to cope with the trust issues involved. We've long since worked it all out and determined that some of her issues stemmed from assuming that the word "Trance" always referred to "Posessory trance". We simply agreed that we're not obliged to trust eachother, but we are obliged to keep our promises and uphold the Frith. We don't much hang out anymore (we had been friends there for a while), but we get along ok. But I'm still a bit wary of her because I know she can turn on a dime.

As far as I know nobody else cares anymore, but I'm extremely sensitive to being accused of lying, which is why I try not to go into too much detail about my work (without prompting) outside the local community. And I'll almost certainly never join the Troth, because I'm not prepared to deal with a standard of Asatru behavior that I've never professed to uphold. I'm not "Asatru". I've consistantly said I'm NOT "Asatru". I cannot be held faithful to the Aesir. I'm Poly-trad. I practice funky magics. I make no promises to satisfy the reputation needs of conservative Heathens I've never met.

I'm ranting now, sorry. Does this answer your question?

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:46 / 12.10.07
*Tugs at Ember's sleeve and points to italicised known Lokean while making Gato Con Botas eyes*
 
 
Ticker
18:56 / 12.10.07
AB, that has to be the nicest way of pointing out an uncomfortable interweb moment ever. I salute thee, known Lokean!

Ember, thank you for going into detail about your experience. I'm really finding your posts very helpful.

It seems your community doesn't feel the need to test extensively for possession because nothing major is being decided/impacted by interacting with Deity in this manner? Does the grain of salt apply with personal private messages delivered in this manner to folks at ceremonies? It also seems as if your House is very much about the Mama's expert handling and decision while your other groups are more collective process based?
 
 
EmberLeo
04:19 / 14.10.07
Aunt Beast, I want to be clear to you as some others here already know: I have no issues with Lokeans being Lokean. I don't think He's the devil, and I don't think He should be avoided at all costs. I have several friends who are devoted to Loki and/or His kin, and I get along with both them and Him just fine. But there is nevertheless an observable tendancy for His people to push boundaries, and for His people to have their lives regularly turned upside down and shaken like a snow-globe, and some of them are less honest in how they handle it than others. To ignore or gloss over this fact is no better than to villify Him.

Moreover, I have no issue with one who dedicate to Him, but I have a major issue with those who know they are dedicated to Him, and then play the innocent martyr when their lives are chaotic - especially if they've been dedicated to Him for years, and have been through the cycle with Him repeatedly.

I have issues with other people who know such children, have watched their lives be overturned repeatedly, have watched them stir the shit and reap the results, just like their Father does, and nevertheless fail to check the facts before taking what they're handed at face value, simply because they're not the punchline of the joke this time. In a religious community that says they value personal responsibility and forthrightness, I think that's just plain inappropriate.

To be fair, I have no less issue with Odin's children not acknowledging the effects of dedicating to Odin ("Oh noes! I dedicated my life to Odin and now He wants me to get a job that involves a lot of travel, talking to strangers, and I'm having problems with my eye?! WHY ME?!") Or anyone else's children, for that matter. There are down-sides to being a child of the Vanir, too - My Seasonal Affective Disorder has been getting steadily worse since I started getting involved with them, and it's not like that doesn't suck.

I don't care who you're dedicated to as long as you acknowledge Their nature, and don't claim shock, dismay and innocence when your life is still affected by that nature in an obvious, repeatable fashion.

In my experience, expecting a child of Loki to NOT be a shit-stirrer is unrealistic. I admit, there are times the shit damned well needs stirring. Maybe this was one of them - maybe I needed a lesson in watching my own back more closely, or how to handle politics, or what the downside of a community I was digging into can look like before I get too in love with the ideal. Who knows? Gods know it was a learning experience.

But what seemed to be and what was true were two totally different things, and the primary cultivator of confusion just happened to be a child of Loki - I don't think that's a coincidence.

--Ember--
 
 
EmberLeo
04:23 / 14.10.07
It seems your community doesn't feel the need to test extensively for possession because nothing major is being decided/impacted by interacting with Deity in this manner?

Well, sometimes, but also we test the message rather than the depth of posession, if that makes sense.

Does the grain of salt apply with personal private messages delivered in this manner to folks at ceremonies? It also seems as if your House is very much about the Mama's expert handling and decision while your other groups are more collective process based?

Um, yes, and I think that has to do with which cultural context the tradition comes from. But then, also, I'm more involved in running the rituals in the Heathen context. If there is rank to be had (and I'm not saying there is), I suppose you could say I rank fairly high within Hrafnar (when I'm able to attend). As a result, my perspective on how things are run at Hrafnar are from the perspective of being on the team of folks who are in charge of making it happen.

Seidhjallr is intended to be a group of peers - we don't all have the same experience level or skill level, but there's no hierarchy, and we're all prepared to learn from eachother.

My perspective in the Umbanda house is that of a newbie Medium In Training who is only just finishing her second year as an official House Member.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:11 / 14.10.07
Ember, thanks for your clarification. The reason I flagged your post was that the way in which you referred to this person as being a "known Lokean" risked being interpreted as suggesting that she was therefore not to be trusted--it looked as if you were citing her spiritual orientation as evidence for her unreliability as a witness. I know you're not like that, but I was concerned about giving the impression that it's okay to have a pop at devotees of God X or Goddess Y.
 
 
EmberLeo
10:18 / 14.10.07
Ahh, no. I do my best to avoid putting my foot in my mouth, but sometimes experience-based postjudice looks a lot like stereotypical prejudice if I don't get into the details.

--Ember--
 
 
rosie x
13:13 / 15.10.07
To quote XK:

It seems to me this expectation puts an unfair pressure on the horse that they should always be able to be this receptive and that Deity is going to appear.

Personally, I would find a situation where possession was intricately planned out in advance quite suspicious. I know that a lot of folks from various traditions work in this fashion: the ritual is set up, the ‘possession’ is encouraged, codes of conduct are established, and ‘horses’ are designated in advance. That’s quite a lot of human control going on there, with various individuals (generally at the top of the group’s power structure) deciding who’s going to be invited to the party, how it’s going to play out, and who’s going to star in the show.

Where is the role of deity in all this? Don’t the gods have the power to make independent decisions? What happens if things don’t proceed according to the script? If I was participating in a group ritual, and one of the clergy said to me, “Deity X is going to possess horse Y” I wouldn’t really know what to say. What right do devotees have to dictate the actions of their gods in advance?

What happens if you set up the expectation of full possession and it doesn't happen? How does that impact the community's belief, or what does it do to the horse's self esteem?

I would imagine that it would be an intense disappointment for all involved, and that participants might very well be propelled to fake it in order to avoid embarrassment. Setting such high expectations in advance could very well create a breeding ground for all sorts of inauthentic behaviour, especially if the participants know that they will not be put through testing measures of any kind, and that the validity of their claims will not be questioned.

And Ember said...

I know some of the traditional tests involve eating things normal people can't eat for some reason. Erzulie eating live cockroaches...

Holy shit. Never heard that one before. Where'd you read that? No way would she go for it in my house. Not even in her fiercer manifestations as Ze Rouge, Dantor or La Flambeaux. Not to mention Freda, who would find it disgusting. Just goes to show you how differently the Lwa can manifest from head to head and house to house.
 
 
Ticker
13:50 / 15.10.07
Where is the role of deity in all this? Don’t the gods have the power to make independent decisions? What happens if things don’t proceed according to the script? If I was participating in a group ritual, and one of the clergy said to me, “Deity X is going to possess horse Y” I wouldn’t really know what to say. What right do devotees have to dictate the actions of their gods in advance?

For myself it's even broader than the question of who is driving and who gets to issue requirements, timetables, and so on. I look at scheduled possession, full possession, as glossing over the uncountable number of variables at play on all sides of the interaction even before I get to the issue of hubris. Some folks say they can arrange these possessions with the Deity in advance, even place requirements or decline from the work. Knowing the varied relationships people have with their Deities it is hard for me to say when it is reasonable and when it is not. However I believe some of the hidden variables may have nothing to do with the Deity and the horse's willingness to meet up at a ritual and perform as required. While we are talking about Deity, AFAIK none of us are talking about a Deity that presents as omniscient and omnipotent. I believe we are talking about Deities from poly traditions Who themselves have obligations and are impacted by Other Powers. There's off stage considerations for everyone.

I would imagine that it would be an intense disappointment for all involved, and that participants might very well be propelled to fake it in order to avoid embarrassment. Setting such high expectations in advance could very well create a breeding ground for all sorts of inauthentic behaviour, especially if the participants know that they will not be put through testing measures of any kind, and that the validity of their claims will not be questioned.


This is a really scary mixture to set up all kinds of badness especially in small magical religious communities. If everyone is motivated by faith, belief, and good intent it still does not cancel out subconscious yearnings for respect or valued participation or at least the wish not to fail publicly. If the standard is the horse ought to be able to do this thing on demand, what happens when other variables kick in and the person can't? the Deity said They would show up so then is it automatically a failure on the part of the horse? Seems to be a super crappy place to be and I can well imagine unintentional faking merely out of the intense need not to fail the community. Many magical techniques include 'fake it until you make it' style approach so I can see how someone would act as if Deity were present in the hopes that They would arrive.

Rather than seeing this as a failure of the horse, I see this as a problematic structure of expectations coming from the entire community and serious lack of tools. It's not enough to install tests for full possession, there needs to be a compassionate resonable approach to a supernatural and Divine event's unpredicatable nature. Truthfulness needs to be valued more than an Appearance.
 
 
EmberLeo
19:43 / 15.10.07
especially if the participants know that they will not be put through testing measures of any kind, and that the validity of their claims will not be questioned.

I think it's extremely important to have at least one or the other. If you're not going to put the Horse through tests, then you MUST check the validity of their claims, and take responsibility for your own choice to persue them.

Heck, even if you do test them, personified divinities have Their own agendas - you're still responsible for how you choose to respond to Their advice. I think that philosophy of personal responsibility is why our community seems to have come to the conclusions it has.

I want to clarify though - about the schedule: We do know that we can set up invocations until the end of time, and all they can be are cues to help the horse get open enough to recieve, and an overt invitation for the deity to arrive. I'll tell you right now, not everyone goes out every time they expect to, and not everyone goes out as deeply - or shallowly - as they expected either - we see variation regularly, and the events are structured around that being okay. Even in planned rituals with designated mediums, the gods don't always take who we planned, or only who we planned. But They usually do, and one of the points of having warders is to handle the variables when things change.

When we do have designated mediums, those mediums are usually the most experienced available, and have long term agreements with various powers. I have also noticed that it seems we can be more casual about the invocations for Consulto because the powers really LIKE being helpful and giving advice, so They're fairly reliable about responding to that particular request.

Some spirits like to party more than others, and will happily take several horses simply for the sake of hanging out with Their people. Some powers will only respond to our invitation if there's serious work to be done that actually requires them, and otherwise don't take a horse when we call no matter how long we sing for them.

The Horse is not "blamed" for not getting posessed. Depending on their track record and skill level, they tend to recieve either a shrug that the deity wasn't interested today, because they're experienced enough that their own skill certainly wasn't the problem, or compassionate support that it doesn't always work, and that's ok, and we can keep working on skills, you haven't done anything wrong. If a particular person tries repeatedly and is never taken by a power no matter how much interest in them that power has expressed, we gently remind them that there are a great many other wonderful ways to contribute to the ritual and community, and to interact with one's own guardians. Not everyone is meant to be a medium - if everyone went out when the gods arrived, there'd be nobody left to watch over us, or serve the food, or ask questions, or sing the songs and play the drums, etc. One of my students in the last round of the trance class specifically took the class as a Warder who cannot and does not go out. She came to learn more about the process from the outside, and how she can best handle the mediums in her care.

On the flip side, some mediums are more succeptible to being jumped without prompting - they get more training in cues to stay themselves, and in how to deliberately reach for the power that's taking them in order to discuss a more functional arrangement.

People who have intense relationships with particular powers will have their own stuff going on there that is, as XK says, "off stage". As it happens, one of the first things Freya promised me was that while I may not get the kind of response I thought I wanted, She will always come when I call. In retrospect, that's a great deal more significant than I could understand at the time, but as I don't call Her without love and reason, I believe I have given Her no reason to revoke that privelaged promise. However, promising She will come, and promising She will posess me are two very different things.

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:11 / 09.10.11
reposessed
 
  

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