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Invited possession/horsing and channeling/divine inspiration.

  
  

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Ticker
13:58 / 17.01.07
As well as disappearing useful techniques, then, there's also another issue here, that of disappearing a whole section of experience relating to spirit contact and spirit possession because it does not conform to the horse=lady=passive/spirit=tummysnake=active model, or in fact consciously draw on sexuality very much at all. I think this is unbalanced and unhealthy.

I have to agree. In there someplace is the dialogue around internal spirits/aspects/selves which do not conform to the external penetration metaphor at all.

The entire idea of what the Self is and what Agents are acting upon the presently viewed concept of the consciousness gets sort of dumped off. I find much of the current language to describe this work either assumes external source=real vs. internal source = false, yet no investigation of what is being used to determine the boundary line in the first place.
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:06 / 17.01.07
The idea that there is a boundary line between inner and outer is perhaps something that needs to be questioned. My own experience suggests to me that there is a constant interaction taking place between inner and outer experience, that it isnt a start stop process but a continual phenomena, self awareness and phenomena constantly shifting and sharing merged characteristics.

With regards to possession this brings to mind the phrase 'the empty vessel rings true' It seems to me that my most strong encounters of this experience were when i was unformed, beginning to reassemble myself from my own near death experience, the serpent i encountered during my n.d.e would literally possess me at times.

Also points of exhaustion leave the self unfocused, disassembled, no conscious effort is being applied to wear a persona, ive had these experiences during dancing, defocused awareness seems to allow the narrowing of consciousness focused on self to expand and become inclusive of other consciousness. Its perhaps understanding that the boundary is a self forged process by perception that consciousness is a seperate process from body or other forms of consciousness/spirit, in reality there is no boundary except the conditioned social boundary erected to allow us to function as a community of human beings, this is as important thou as the unbound consciousness that is open to all conscious expression.

This is actually really hard to talk about, another thing comes to mind of my own experiences of working outside town limits in the country, certain designators are stripped away that allow an opening to take place in perception and awareness, new relationships can be formed about 'natural environments' I recall my playing with trees and rocks as a child, communicating and experiencing my relations. There are no socially defined boundary's, where as there are in what i have read of traditional possession settings, yet the existent perception of boundary's are lowered or removed or gates are opened to allow a place where spirit communication can take place.

What is perhaps being breached is the social contract that human beings keep to allow a human focused exchange of communication and relationship to take place, a possession setting or awareness is a breach in that social contract, in a sense, unless that experience is socially sanctified by the prevailing spiritual community, or the situation of place allows for those contracts to be relaxed. The other is more personal in my mind but is pertinent to all the above The social contract and persona we maintain to ourself has to become formless and we have to expand our own notion of self and other into a more inclusive framework that is boundless, where the fences have been calmly removed (as opposed to forcibly kicked over, which just ain't nice).
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:17 / 17.01.07
But why should that same contract be assumed to exist between a human and a spirit?
 
 
Ticker
17:22 / 17.01.07
that's sort of what tweaks a lot of people out, methinks...
they have a pre existing idea of what is allowable social contract wise, and when a non human agency does something that isn't in that contract it registers as a trespass when perhaps the perception of the boundary is really the problem, not the action.

tricky.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:47 / 17.01.07
I think this is a pretty common problem for people making the shift from some forms of neopagan spirituality or magical practice to the kind of spirit-work that we're looking at here. If you read a lot of popular mainstream texts (the books you might expect to find in Barnes and Noble) they seem to be written from one of two veiwpoints. One is a modern version of the "mighty wilful mage commands the spirit to appear in a pleasing form without undue fuss and bother, staying within imposed restrictions at all times." Another is the veiwpoint that sees Gods and spirits as having some kind of responsibility to act cute and fluffy and give you stuff when you demand it, with the votary being expected to respond with hostility or abandonment if the spirit doesn't hand over the goodies--or worse, asks anything in particular of the votary.

Somewhere down the road this is highly likely to result in--to borrow a phrase from Jay Wiseman--"a mismatch of expectations."
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:31 / 17.01.07
Their is a kind of social contract that exists between humans and spirits, in my opinion it is formed out of the story's and mythology's a community creates around its spiritual interactions and the spirits themselves. These in a sense act as arbritary governors of the experience. Certain object associations, places, symbols etc bind a sense of spiritual identity and obligation to negotiations and direct exchanges of communication, i see this more from my readings of african tradition and spiritualism and spiritism, although its also a phenomena in indian/hindu traditions.

Possession acts in a social context to create a sense of community through a family of spirits and a human group, the binding contract could be observed to be the act of possession itself, especially in regard to ancestors, the behavior of the possession is also bound to place and custom, mythological narrative and context.

There is some more but i cant find the words yet.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:52 / 17.01.07
There is a slightly frightening phenomena at work in my writing here, you might of noticed as a poster my posts tend to vary wildly in how they express, either i have very distinct moods, a variety of persona's, have taken the lid off my head a few too many times, or sometimes i feel as if the words speak me and i am not speaking the words, get what i mean? I have never put alot of truck in with channeling, but my head mostly doesn't feel like my own. I am not saying thats the case here, but i don't know how i am writing what i am writing above, i couldn't describe the process to you or how the sentences are coming together, a mysterious process of habit perhaps. I find the variety of different voices inside of me very unnerving, and bloody annoying when they fight. Does this happen to anybody else? Please say yes.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
06:51 / 18.01.07
Offtopic, but: Yes, that does happen to me too. Sometimes the difference in my textual voice on different occasions seems very stark to me, and I do find myself thinking "whoa, did I really write that?"

But really it is all me, just radically different aspects of me. I do channeled speech and writing from time to time and I've begun to get a feel for the difference between, say, bad-moody Mordant grabbing the pen and Someone from outside (or from a lot further in, if you listen to Jan Fries).

If you think you could do so without too much risk, maybe you could experiment with channeled writing too. The next time you feel that the words are speaking you, as you put it, try sitting down quietly with a pen and paper or a tape recorder and seeing what they have to say.
 
 
Unconditional Love
09:05 / 04.08.07
Well this started from an argument in my head between a voice telling me that i will do as i am told (old feminine) and then me explaining individual liberty and human rights and what they mean to me.

Then a light came on, i am sure other people have written about this, and i have seen thesis examining racist stereotypes in some forms of brazilian spirit representation.
But my thoughts started to travel around the notion of slavery the politics of slavery and how that has manifested in modern african traditional religions.

I wonder if the structure of slavery is inherent in the way ATR's have constructed hierarchy in relation to priesthood and the act of possession. Could it for example be a factor in a master/ servant perception in the characterisation of being a horse.

How many of the values of slavery exsist in the structure of haitian vodou, could one of the seeds that created liberation contain attachments to the system it helped destroy. I guess in someways it is making me think about the context of these traditions, how did slavery effect the notions of the religous and sacred structures of ATR's.

Do they still bear any of these hallmarks today? As manifestations of liberation and salvation how have they redefined themselves from the times they were born within.

How have notions of possession changed to the human body since the time these traditions were formulated within?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:59 / 04.08.07
I wonder if the structure of slavery is inherent in the way ATR's have constructed hierarchy in relation to priesthood and the act of possession. Could it for example be a factor in a master/ servant perception in the characterisation of being a horse.

I think that's an incredibly problematic question, loaded with some rather ugly assumptions. African traditional religions are hardly my area of expertise, but I'm going to jump in anyway with what I know.

For this idea--that trance-possession is an artifact of and an expression of a master/slave dynamic--to hold up, we'd have to see A) no trance possession in those African traditions that were less affected by slavery--trance possession would be something that appeared only amongst those abducted and sold; B) no trance possession in other traditions where the cultural experience of being enslaved does not exist to an appreciable degree. For my money we'd also expect to see C) a conceptualisation of the being doing the possessing as alien and superior in some way to the votary.

A) and B) fall down at once. Tons of anthropological evidence to the contrary. Trance-possession was going on in various African nations' religious practices long before the slavers came, it still goes on. Also, we see it across many, many cultures in different parts of the world.

C) also collapses pretty quickly. Despite the inanity generated by certain fevered Caucasian imaginations, the spirits venerated in African traditional religions are not strange alien overlords come to ride you around like a pony at Their mysterious whim. As I understand it They're concieved of as ancestral, familial; the elder kin of Their votaries. They are no more alien than Auntie Doris. There is certainly a service element to the relationship, but it's still a loving given-and-take, not some random foreign guy steaming in and forcing you to do something you don't want.

I think what I'm seeing here is a faliure to get what possession is. The Gods and spirits don't just come down into Their votaries because they fancy a bit of mortal fun and games and this is the only way They can get it. They come down to commune with us. They come to teach us, answer our questions, bless us. Someone horsing does perform a service, sure, but that person is serving hir community as much as ze is serving the possessing entity--like a midwife or a plumber. You provide the Being with Hir preferred food, drink, gear and substances because Ze is your beloved, honoured guest, not because Ze is your Evil Alien Master.

Sure, there are no doubt cruel, evil spirits who use possession merely to exploit or to do harm (anything that can be named has a Wight, that is to say anything that can be concieved of is present in Spirit, and that includes the ugly aspects of human nature). But aside from groups of 15-year-olds in too much black mascara, who the Hel is going to set up a religion around that?
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:08 / 04.08.07
Okay that wasn't my intent, i see why you might see the ugly assumptions from a certain view point, but looking at the development of traditions in a context is useful especially since slavery is a big part of that context.

I could examine for example the cultural context of any body working with feudal or renaissance material and apply similar factors to say for example working with enochian angels in a medium like manner, or the key of solomon without understanding some of the factors involved in the times the various books were written.

It provides a context in which to understand the complex notion of possession or medium like experiences and looks at the surrounding cultural factors that have contributed to a given tradition or system.

While i can see how misconstrued what i have written could be taken that wasn't the idea or purpose of the writing, more to draw comparisons between everyday realities faced by the people whom developed and integrated their experience into there practice.
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:22 / 04.08.07
Trance possession has been going on in african cultures for many centuries you are right, as it has been in many other cultures, but examiing the context of that developement is important in understanding a tradition. I may well have it wrong, but i think that slavery has had a large impact on certain ATR's and the context that has created is still apparent in the history of those traditions, i wonder if it still bears any fruit in the modern world.

So an example would be the Pomba Giras in kiumbanda, whom some are the result of kongo traditions mixing with the traditions of those from portugal tried for witchcraft and sent to brazil and many other factors, Understanding that context helps me to see how various ideas in a tradition have developed and evolved.

The comment about modern notions of possession as in ownership, and modern notions of possession (spirtual) is trying to engage with how people whom live in our time in the western world engage with this notion.
 
 
rosie x
14:09 / 04.08.07
Gypsy Lantern logged in as Rosie X. Misplaced password. Slightly too gobsmacked to find password.

This is really irritating, wolfangel. Trance possession is a huge part of the fundamental framework of African traditional religions, not just in the Diaspora but in Africa. You can even see its influence in present day African Christianity, speaking in tongues, getting taken up by the Holy Spirit, and so on. It goes way back. Perhaps thousands of years back. I'd suggest reading some primary sources on this material before you put forward what are essentially deeply offensive views about the foundations of African Diaspora religious traditions, then it might not appear quite so infuriating. At the moment, you seem to be basing this controversial perspective largely on a dialogue with a voice in your head...

Right off the bat, you are assuming a master/slave relationship between the Lwa/Orixa and their devotees, which simply is not there. In these traditions the Lwa are the emanations of God, alright. They are not goetic demons trying to push you around and make you do stuff according to arbitrary whim. They are Saints, Angels, Laws of the Universe, and any instruction imparted from this source is Divine Will, the Will of the Universe, the Thelemic True Will. If your ego reacts negatively to anything imparted from such a source, you want to look closely at your ego and examine what is getting caught up in the gears. If you have a problem with black skinned deities being emanations of the Divine, as opposed to demonic mercenary astral badmen with bad intentions, then you want to look closely at what is going on there.

Please keep in mind that the Lwa were the driving, liberating revolutionary force in a fifteen year war of emancipation from slavery, before you forward totally unsupported suggestions that they are the slave gods and get off on keeping their children in slavery. I know you didn't intend this line of speculation to come off as racist or offensive, but from where I'm sitting, it really does. I'm tired of hearing this sort of shit.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:28 / 04.08.07
Okay this is absolute bollocks, i am looking at a context in which these traditions were influenced by i am not equating master servant too possession merely looking that that context also existed in the respective cultures these traditions came from. i can see after the loony nath vist you may be all fucking paranoid, but really, i am sorry, i am not a racist nor am i trying to promote a racist agenda. If you don't see that context fair enough, others before me have examined for example the stereo typical portrayals of old black slave spirits in brazilian traditions for example and seen a connection in perceptions that do reinforce racist view points linked to perceptions from slavery. I am not the only one too of thought hey there may be a link here.

I will refrain from even asking the question, obviously certain contexts are not to be investigated.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:21 / 04.08.07
Or you could consider the possibility that you didn't think what you had written through thoroughly enough before you hit post, and that maybe instead of getting angry and defensive you could examine why two people might independantly have got pretty much the same impression and taken offence. It's not cool to throw around words like "paranoid" like you just did there.
 
 
Unconditional Love
13:14 / 05.08.07
Perhaps you are right that my initial posting was not well thought out, but at that point is was the germ of an idea beginning to see connections, since then having followed on from it i have been looking at the connections between slavery and religion, ancient and modern from all across the world.

How religion was and still is in some cases used to justify slavery, especially with regards to the idea of a persons will or body belonging to deitie(s), i can see how that can be used to create a sense of greater identity also. All these notions have alot to do with the idea of Possession and ideas of how the body relates to culture and internalises culture.

Metaphors of Possession

Slavery and religion

Christianity and slavery So for example these notions seem to echo the comment above that implies the body and soul as the property of god or true will - "Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven." (Colossians 4:1)

The Holy Spirit:

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body." (1 Corinthians 6:19-20)

Jesus:

"For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave." (1 Corinthians 7:22) "Paul, a slave of Jesus Christ" (Romans 1:1).

The context of submission, human to human, human to deities bares a similar relationship, one defined by ownership, belonging, property, cultural identity.

From the first link - There is a relationship of power within the body of the possessed, which is often a conflictual one until the possessed submits to the possessor. As Fuson has noted (2001), there is the metonymic relationship between spirit possession and past experiences of slavery; they are clearly linked.
 
 
Unconditional Love
14:49 / 05.08.07
Here Ritual servitude (not to be confused with my post about modern ATR's) is an example of the worst Application of these ideas which in my opinion also reflect how similar ideas have allowed the church in the west to commit acts of child abuse in the name of god and under gods authority without too many questions being raised.(until recent times)

The communinity and the body belong to god or deitie so it is assumed that the direct emissarys of deitie have more authority, because they are in greater possession of spirt and communication with spirit.

Possession then quite literally becomes an act of ownership through divine authority, divine authority becomes encultured into a community that then agrees to the precepts laid down by those percieved to be vessels or conduits for divinity. These are direct abuses of the idea of an encultured communal spirituality. That is why they need to be questioned.

There are also applications of these ideas that lead to a greater sense of collective identity, cultural understanding, experience of the spiritual and can as noted above lead a people to throw off oppressive regimes and librate themselves from abhorrent forms of oppression like slavery, but the same precepts can be used to enslave and oppress a community and create abuse.

My own experience informs me of just how easily secular and/or religous authority can be used to abuse, the idea of possession with all its connotations and the idea of submission to deitie involve precepts that can be used in an abusive fashion and it would increasingly seem are being exposed as such, no matter what the religous background.

When a notion is not open to question or investigation it cannot be examined from all angles of reference. When a community or culture is not open to question itself all sorts of abuses pass through it unrecognised for what they are, because they have become such a part of communal narrative and structure that there very acceptence cannot be questioned.

Possession and submission both imply a removal of self control, a sacrifice of liberty, for something that is percieved as being more worthy or larger than personal liberty. When the self is displaced and spirit is seen as something other than or outside of self knowledge this is in my opinion when the notion of possession reaches a point at which it is open to abuse. Physical slavery works upon the same notion of removing individual value and liberty, idealogical slavery works upon the same notion replacing the ability to question with totalist and absolutist ideas such as those embodied by totallitarian politics and religous structures that deal in eternal values. Such as the notion of god. That central point of reference becomes an invocation of authority, which those closest too, ie those possessed by or in service too can then use as the encultured weight of to perform all manner of actions, both benign and malevolent.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:56 / 05.08.07
I see nothing in the information posted above to support any particular link between slavery and possession in the context of Vodoun or any other traditions except those that specifically conceptualise of it in that manner--for example, in the Moroccan spiritual system referred to in one link (and we have only that particular author's word for it that this is the case--the article is an opinion piece giving her impressions, not an anthropological study). Your link to a Wikipedia article on religion and slavery says nothing about Vodoun and nothing about spirit possession. In point of fact, nothing you have posted above properly substantiates the suggesstion that possession = slavery.

Once again, this is all stuff that you are bringing to the table, not something that's inherent in the spiritual systems you are attempting to critique. If you want to talk about your negative experiences of organised religion then that's fine; if you want to talk about your own negative experiences of possession and your reservations about the practice then that's fine too, but trying to hang your personal issues on a vast spectrum of spiritual practices is downright offensive.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:16 / 05.08.07
Cross-posted.

Possession and submission both imply a removal of self control, a sacrifice of liberty, for something that is percieved as being more worthy or larger than personal liberty.

What the Hel? How does possession (in the specific senses we're using in this thread) necessarily imply a sacrifice of liberty? Good gravy. I will certainly concede that religion has been and is still used to justify slavery, that institutionalised slavery exists within some religious structures. I will also concede that (even within my tradition) there are individuals who consider themselves to be "owned" by their Gods, although this is a vanishingly rare phenomenon. But this blanket idea you're putting forward, that ALL spiritual systems which include possession imply slavery--this is simply not true.
 
 
Stigma Enigma
17:31 / 05.08.07
However in may other faiths the human conduit is not said to be possessed by an Entity so much as said to be channelling information.

Hope you don't mind if I skip back to the initial post here and share my own experience, I'm not sure where to jump in otherwise.

I'm a musician and no stranger to becoming a conduit for a particular spirit's message. To top it all off, I have occasional bouts of disassociation and delusion that makes me truly think I am that other person, as if they are some fragment of my greater whole (oh God, the ego...)

Those of you who play instruments or especially perform the music of others and sing their words, perhaps you can relate or maybe I just take it that level, but there are times when I am the vessel moving the hands on the guitar and Bob Marley's voice is coming out of my mouth. Its beyond the point of imitation--me trying to copy his style as best I can--its him going through me. And I'm all for it, provided I can control it

I had a breakdown about a month and a half ago, some of which was documented here on another thread. During its peak I have no doubt I was possessed by Asmodeus and looking back I was probably dealing with Choronzon, Kali, and Odin all at once.

I had been getting really Dionysian--hosting parties, drinking, always having women around--and I think Pride started to kick in or at least a God delusion that got me into upper spaces where I wasn't entirely welcome.

What finally threw me over was an overdose of meditation, an overly eclectic practice, and tai chi....I had a sense my left body and my right body were both snakes fighting each other, the one on the right being my Anima (perhaps an inner Kali? We're talking full force brutality...) the one on the left being whatever was left of my fragmented personality.

Then again, I am a practicing urban shaman so this was not too out of the ordinary and a quick 6 days at the hospital for $50 a night got me all fixed up good.

When I did return to my computer I found a txt document on my desktop.....it was a "soul grab" and filled with degrading messages toward women. I'm thinking "oh God...I wasn't even aware of typing this." This was the first time that happened to me.....going back and seeing something that was definitely NOT you.

When I go through manic episodes I am able to assimilate into all kinds of people and deities across time.....the question is do I WANT to because I still have to deal with the fallout and figure out myself afterwards. Its all mental death anyways which I am well used to but there are many nights where I can't wait to get home and take my meds so these telepathic vampire women from Los Angeles will stop their psychic assault.

I hadn't posted in awhile and last time I was in severe schizoid psychosis, so I am also here to say I'm getting better and at the very most I let the Son of the Batman ride me for the sake of my hometown.......minus the sold my soul to the devil thing. The devil in my life is sort of a nuisance like the Robin in Miller's All Star Batman. Punk kid.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
01:46 / 06.08.07
Dude, you know when you get the strong impression that someone is doing way, waaaayy too much magic and is in earnest need of a couple of months of downtime? By the powers vested in me as an interfering bastard, I hereby order you to go and do some gardening, see some mates and eat a proper breakfast for at least the next eight to ten weeks, after which you may return to light duties. The Darque Arts will still be there when when you get back, but hopefully the vampire ladies will have gone home to your DVD collection.

I'm not sure why Asmodeus, Kali, 333 and the One-Eyed Bastard would all have gone round your house all at once, that sort of thing being somewhat outside my experience, but I'm convinced that taking a longish breather will help.
 
 
Stigma Enigma
06:42 / 06.08.07
Well, I did just start a garden on facebook.....does that count?

But honestly, this is nothing a little grounding and aesthetic appreciation won't fix. Yeah, it was hell, but I'm stronger and the worst is well behind me.

Thanks for being a bastard though, we have that in common. =)
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:18 / 06.08.07
Sabin's reflection: Are you entertaining the possibility that 90% of this is total nonsense fabricated by an ego desperate for the presence of "the magical" and investing far too much objective validity in an elaborate and somewhat out of control fantasy life? If you are not interrogating your experiences, then you are being a shit magician. More than anything else, your whole spiel above just comes across as if you are trying to impress people with all the crazy magic that fills your life. Who are you trying to impress? Why? What are you getting out of this? What is the point?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
08:18 / 06.08.07
Well, I did just start a garden on facebook.....does that count?

No
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:27 / 06.08.07
I am not putting forward the idea that all religious systems that employ possession imply slavery, but where slavery and possession exist together or have had, the processes and dynamics involved in both experiences have direct influences upon each other. Possibly relating to how methodology is employed in both a religious and social context.

What i am NOT saying is that Possession experiences are a form of slavery, but what i am saying is that slavery has had (where it has occurred) a noticeable effect on the dynamics of religious interactions and technique, including possession. Also that it will remain as a factor in community structure with a reaction too, and possibly an embracing off certain precepts that are inherent within slavery or serfdom.

For example the feudalistic structure of the Christian church is still apparent in catholic church hierarchy, interactions with these symbols embodies an en cultured catholic history with which come certain values and cultural and political dynamics already attached to the symbols and structure. Unconscious cultural behaviour, encoded into symbols and bodily actions,the experiences of a people in these systems of religous tradition are encoded in the symbols and bodies of the people.

Slavery is as much a part of ATR's in both negative and positive ways as serfdom/slavery is of Catholic Christianity. Examining what values people have brought to a living tradition gives a broader idea of how people relate to a practice and what they bring from there own experiences and how they then employ that within there relationship to deitie.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:35 / 06.08.07
All righty, then, WolfAngel - I think I get what you're saying there. So, what have your findings been in discussing the effect of the history of slavery on the practice of Haitian voodoo with practitioners of voodoo with a close cultural connection to the history of slavery? Only, unless we've actually talked to people about this, I'm not sure how confident we can be about making those connections the basis of our argument.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:42 / 06.08.07
Another way to look at this is from an ancestral view point, consider what you know of your own ancestry and whom some of them were, then consider the experiences that they went through into getting you to where you are now, then look at all the experiences that have gone into making you now from yourself and your ancestry, the parts that come from father and mother the interactions with culture, the trauma of experience, the joy.

All your ancestors experiences are just as real and still are inside of what we are now, whether we choose to process that in an unconscious or conscious way is our choice.

It becomes a case of looking at the bones of experience that have come together inside of us from our ancestors to make us whom we are now, all there experiences are ours, there is no break in the continuity, no start and stop.

How we then process that experiential information defines how we are going to relate in the future and the actions we will take now.
 
 
Unconditional Love
11:47 / 06.08.07
I have not been able to engage anybody with this topic, accept here which i think is a good place to run ideas and have them questioned and refined to the point where they seem to make more sense.

I possibly need to go and get a religous studies degree or anthropolgy degree and go and do some field work. basically get of my arse and stop theorising.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:05 / 06.08.07
I don't think anyone would require you to go and take a degree in Religious Studies in order to talk about these issues, but you seriously need to order your thoughts better before you bring them out here. Reading back over your posts, I still have trouble following your train of thought. You're all over the place, mate, and I mean that in the friendliest way possible.

This is some pretty high-octane territory, you know. You really need to go carefully and be clear about what you're saying and the ppoints you want to make when you're dealing with something as sensitive as this.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:07 / 06.08.07
Well, I did just start a garden on facebook.....does that count?

Are your hands getting dirty? Do your muscles ache? Are you spending an appreciable amount of time doing a good, simple, mundane task which will ground you and perhaps help to take you out of the rather unhealthy headspace you seem to be inhabiting? If the answer is No, then I fear that it does not count.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:23 / 06.08.07
Wolfangel: Possession is not specific to the traditions of the African Diaspora. It did not arise out of the conditions of slavery. Trance possession is a big part of African spiritual practices in Africa and has been integral to African traditions for thousands of years. Nobody is expecting you to get an anthropology degree, but read some primary sources. If you want to investigate how the impact of slavery may have influenced African Diaspora traditions, then a reasonable place to begin might be to look at differences between Diaspora traditions and African traditions.

If possession took place in Haitian Vodou, but didn't happen in Vodou in Benin, then your line of thinking might be better supported. If possession didn't feature very much in African traditions before the impact of slavery, and then became more prevalent during or after slavery, then you might have a point worth exploring. If you could point to specific incidents - either from academic accounts or from speaking to Voodoo practitioners - where the relationship between Lwa and Voodoo practitioner clearly follows that of Master/slave, then you would at least be making an effort.

Possession is as integral to African practice as meditation is to Eastern traditions. I don't see any evidence for how the impact of slavery has changed or altered the role of possession in these religions, as the process of possession predates slavery and can be found throughout Africa. Do you have any evidence that contradicts this? I have never personally intuited any kind of dominant/submissive, master/slave, dynamic at work in my own experiences of possession, or in my decade of daily interactions with these deities. Relationships can have their ups and downs sometimes, and can take a bit of managing, which is where the skill of being a magician comes in - but its always a dialogue, a working out of issues, a complex mutual relationship. I've never felt like I'm in a master/slave relationship. Not once. It just doesn't play out like that. Neither have I ever heard this sort of dynamic recounted by any other practitioners of Voodoo or related traditions.
 
 
Ticker
13:40 / 06.08.07
I attended a interfaith harvest festival yesterday that involved the invited horsing of some NT Deities/ Folks. Lots of people at the ritual do not worship these particular Folks or even Their Relatives and some do. the day's celebration included many forms of harvest celebrations including a really fabulous pot luck feast.

I did not directly interact with the Invited Ones but from talking to the horses ahead of time I can say they were very excited about having the VIPs attend the celebration and honored to be the conduits. Everyone, even those who do not have a relationship with the VIPs were excited to have Them attend. I was very happy my friends who do have a relationship to These Folks got a chance to spend time with Them. The closest analogy I can come up with is being at a party and having the hosts' beloved older kin show up. You get a contact joy off of the family delight.

The day was my Gods' high holy day and while I took great pleasure in being able to attend a harvest festival I did rush home to get on with my own celebrations. I did experience a minor wistfulness about being able to share an entire ritual with peeps in my own tradition. again it was similar to when seeing happy family reunions causes you to yearn for your own. so it was very nice to get home and have dinner with my VIPs.

To sort of bring this back to the topic, all of the invited possession work I've been around has always had this family dynamic to it. I'm aware of and have been in the presence of unsolicted/univited possession but neither set had a power dynamic I'd compare to slavery. even the most unpleasant possibly problematic instance felt more like a dysfunctional relationship not out right oppression. It was not so much the subjugation of one being by Another but the abdication of one and the stepping in by Another. Sort of an unpleasant Squatter appearing because the homeowner gave up the space. I have great sympathy for why the homeowner gave up the space but it was in no way anything like the invited possession I've been in close proximity to.

I wonder if there is some confusion about power dynamics, modern consent based giving up of power versus older imperial colonial systematic oppression?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:04 / 06.08.07
I think there's an awful lot of deeply-rooted misconception and confusion around what possession is. Westerners have a hefty whack of cultural programming to see invasion where there is union, exploitation where there is a loving exchange, fear where there ought to be joy. I'm still nibbling on the last stale crust of this kind of dysfunctional mindset myself.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:24 / 06.08.07
I've gone back and forth about getting into this here, but I think it might be valuable so here goes: Recently, I was fortunate enough to be involved in a group ritual involving mostly heathens but also people from other trads, or no trad at all. It was hoped that possession should occur during the rite, with the man who was serving as our priest as the intended horse. Anyway it all went a bit wonky as these things sometimes do; we got our intended VIP, but He ended up in my head instead of the Godhi's. I'm told that while He was rather challenging to deal with, it was a positive experience for those present. I was basically out of it for the duration (apart from the odd flash, I haven't recovered any memory of the event after going into the possession or before waking up afterwards) but I'd still affirm the experience as positive for me too.

He was there because we asked Him to be there. Everyone present was aware of the possibility of witnessing a possession occur; while I hadn't specifically volunteered to horse, it was still my choice to be there and I was okay with the possibility. The actual possession occured not in a moment of submission but at the culmination of a rite designed to empower the attendees.

Do I feel that I was leant on or exploited that night, in that context? No, I don't. I won't deny that I've had some problems processing the whole thing, but they all come down to my own issues and anxieties (what if it wasn't a real possession, what if it wasn't really the God, what if I did something wrong, what if I could have done it better, etc etc).
 
 
Ticker
14:38 / 06.08.07
but they all come down to my own issues and anxieties (what if it wasn't a real possession, what if it wasn't really the God, what if I did something wrong, what if I could have done it better, etc etc).

for me these are the reasons I personally support groups that have open dialogue and critique for people horsing. Not nasty accusations of flasehood but supportive community members to provide feedback like behaviors of the VIP that provide evidence of legit visitation. From my POV these are all healthy sane questions the community needs to address collectively. Sadly when it's just one person asking/responding it's much harder to feel the answers are as solid.
 
  

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