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Less searchable M0rd4nt
06:57 / 03.02.08
Gonna come back to this later when I've got more spoons, but briefly: I think the "extrovert" thing may be a bit of a red herring. I don't think you have to be an extrovert + need to be the centre of attention etc. to suffer without human companionship. It's a simple, basic need which almost everyone has at some level, like the need for food and shelter--and like all very primal, basic needs, if it is not fulfilled there can be serious consequences for the health of the organism. I can easily imagine isolation creating quite severe physical symptoms, especially if said isolation occured in tandem with being shut away indoors. In anyone, not just our notional extrovert.
 
 
illmatic
10:54 / 03.02.08
NyteMuse: Would you be defining yourself in this way, without the support and identification offered through the online "Otherkin" and "Vampire" communities, do you think?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:12 / 03.02.08
NM- This is something I know very little about, so I'm finding this kind of fascinating. I'm interested in your choice of words when you say Having to work with people or interact with them on almost any level, I tend to find extremely draining.
 
 
ghadis
13:07 / 03.02.08
It is facinating stuff and i'm really appreciative of NyteMuses thoughts and experiences on the subject. Whilst i don't have a huge interest in the Otherkin and Vampire cultures i do think that there is so much there of value to explore. I'm not sure how i'd label or define myself and my view of the world these days, something along the lines of a tantric, pagan, egyptian path type thing maybe, and i spend quite a lot on my waking and dreaming hours fitting into this box. But not all of me of course. There is a lot of me who reads way too much E.M.Cioran and would maybe class myself as a bit of a nihilist if classing yourself as a bit of a nihilist wasn't the single biggest wankerish thing you could ever do. I quite like bouncing these two opposite ways of thinking around my head. I'm not saying that i think that what we are talking about is nihilism but it does seem to be a bit anti-life (or life as a burden to be suffered or struggled with) which, like i said, i have some sympathy for. I don't think i'm making much sense the moment to be honest. I'll come back when i'm more sober and i don't have to work.
 
 
EvskiG
15:12 / 03.02.08
Let me cut to the chase.

I know if I lock myself up away from people for several days, I will get lethargic, hypersensitive, fatigued, irritable, dizziness, migraines, weakness, arrhythmia, and experience a persistent feeling of emptiness and eventually suffer from extreme indigestion and abdominal cramping from eating any food or drink. If I go out where people are or have been, I recover almost immediately.

This isn't that remarkable, and doesn't mean you're a vampire in any sense of the word.

Unless you simply want to label yourself a vampire for one or more of the reasons I noted above.

Also, why on earth would you "lock [yourself] away from people for several days"?

While I am aware of the introvert/extrovert notions, I had never known that migraines, arrhythmia, loss of consciousness, or actual physical weakness could result.

Most of that probably is psychosomatic.

And, as TTS noted "I can easily imagine isolation creating quite severe physical symptoms, especially if said isolation occured in tandem with being shut away indoors."

I walked into a rather loud/busy/crowded restaurant with a friend once when zie was hungover and cranky. Zie is very sensitive to subtle forces, and when we left the restaurant, zie later commented how interesting it was that zie felt like there was a cushion or void around her so that the busy atmosphere did not press upon zir. I was in the seat next to zir and ambient feeding. Or it could have been something zie was doing unconsciously

Or there could have been nothing remarkable happening at all.

(That's why people like Crowley tried to do experiments with controls.)

I have worked with a donor, and zie has commented on definitely feeling something. Could it be suggestion or psychosomatic?

Probably.

A conversation is an energetic exchange

That's one way of looking at it. Including this conversation, I'd imagine.

And, as you've noted, you consider yourself to be a vampire.
 
 
NyteMuse
18:01 / 03.02.08
Again, with the lots of responses...

Hubbardian: What do you GIVE?

If all this energy is a tangible force that certain people, through whatever reason, have a hard time getting so that they have to resort to ambient feeding or blood drinking, WHERE DOES THAT ENERGY GO???

I'm not totally sure I understand the question? If you're asking what vamps do with the energy they take in, it's basically the same thing other people do with it. Prana/chi/qi is life energy, what helps fuel the body. In a non-vamp, the energy naturally produced is either equal or greater to the amount expended in a day. In a vamp, the energy produced is less. It's sort of like a credit card, sort of...spending more money than you make in a week or month at your job.

Rex: Would you be defining yourself in this way, without the support and identification offered through the online "Otherkin" and "Vampire" communities, do you think?

Actually, I was using the terms before I found the communities. I was actually not terribly aware of the communities (on or offline) for several years.

Stoatie: I'm interested in your choice of words when you say "Having to work with people or interact with them on almost any level, I tend to find extremely draining."

Well...I guess I was trying to answer the comments about vampires just being extroverts (and possibly failing miserably, as I've never heard that theory/counter-argument proposed before so I had nothing prepared). As I'd said before, an extrovert to me is someone who would be the at the center of any social engagement, the life of the party. I was trying to explain why I didn't believe that was me, as I'd be the person in the corner at the party watching the one in the center (and everyone else). As for why I think that? I find most people to be very loud and demanding, which is just overstimulus. Even my closest friends, I eventually just need to go away and have some time by myself. When I come home from work or parties, I'm just emotionally and physically drained (and I do a mostly desk-type job so I'm not exerting myself) and need to decompress. Perhaps the situations I put myself in are not an equivalent exchange, as in the people are making more demands on me than I'm making on them, but even when I just sit in a room with a person and there is no conversation or interaction happening, I am aware of that other presence and it almost presses against me (I'm REALLY trying not to sound too New-Agey here...I'm a witch, so I know that colors a lot of my perceptions). I chose those words because I really and truly do, for the most part, feel physically/mentally/emotionally/spiritually drained upon leaving a social encounter, unless I was engaging in a feeding of some sort (which for me almost never involves direct interaction with the person, as I mostly do the ambient energy thing unless I'm working with a donor).

Ev: Also, why on earth would you "lock [yourself] away from people for several days"?

Because I find people for the most part to be very irritating and prefer my solitude. When I am on a vacation from work, I am at my happiest in my apartment curled up with a good book for days and a mug of tea.

Ev, again: "A conversation is an energetic exchange"
That's one way of looking at it. Including this conversation, I'd imagine.
And, as you've noted, you consider yourself to be a vampire.

I hope that you're not implying I'm trying to suck y'all's souls by engaging in this conversation *smile* I've known some people who claim they can draw energy from people they've never met and have just interacted with online. I personally can't wrap my head around that notion and think they're full of it, but I don't generally point that out to them, since I don't know objectively it's not happening, so who am I to judge?
If you feel like I'm wasting your time or that I'm not a good resource to ask questions of, I will be perfectly happy fading back into lurking mode. I only came here because I didn't see daynah or any other people claiming to be vampiric answering some of the questions I saw posed.
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:28 / 03.02.08
I am wondering how this effects the idea of spirituality as a mediated form, whether that be from popular culture, Jungian archetypal association or culturally specific traditions, including how it relates to the ritualisation of cultural myths into identity and offices.

For example how does an aspirants identification with the media of there tradition reflect on their practice and back into them as a person, once the myths of the media used have become an application through ritual, a process of self relating the story to self and others begins, if in a community, how then do we formulate the many overlaping narratives in our lives (as described above in the idea of conflicting notions) into a singular narrative that means we can say, i am a pagan or thelemite or vampire or whatever we may self identify as. (as temporal as that sometimes is, and as plural)

The personal and communal narrative in the reception and understanding of media seems to be a very prominent magical area, especially in regards to the self reflective narrative which is where many of lifes actions come into being. ( by media here i am referring to literature, costume, conventional notions of media and the artefacts associated with given culture(S) )

Alot of magic, deceptive or more relatively agreed is taking place in this narrative between self and culture, it seems to me that the relationship or contextualised internal narrative (from all sources) holds a great deal of power over us through a large number of inter related processes. The awareness of this ability to relate and how we relate to our notion of relationships seems to go unquestioned, as if it is such a natural human skill to relate to others or objects in particular ways though cultural media that it becomes easy to miss the simple magic in the transaction of definition of relationship.

When we question the mythic cultural identities of our times creating a state of internal identity crisis, do we then retreat into the narrative of cultural fictions created by music, literature, fashions, Past cultures to avoid the discomfort of self referential realities the self made of experience, experience that seems when defined through relation to have no inherent essence but remain as memory of temporal phenomena.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:30 / 04.02.08
I chose those words because I really and truly do, for the most part, feel physically/mentally/emotionally/spiritually drained upon leaving a social encounter

I also feel wrung out after social encounters, but I have a more prosaic model as to why. I find interacting with people rather emotionally and intellectually challenging (unless they're good mates and/or I have had a few). I mean, I also feel "drained" after writing a long essay or doing calculus; not because calculus is eating my chi, it's just taxing that way.

unless I was engaging in a feeding of some sort (which for me almost never involves direct interaction with the person, as I mostly do the ambient energy thing unless I'm working with a donor).

Out of interest, what methods besides "feeding" have you experimented with? Have you tried stepping outside of the energy model altogether and reconsidering your symptoms/experiences from another perspective? What other techniques within the energy model have you worked with? Have you tried tai-chi, for example, or maybe tried getting a Reiki attunement? Have you tried using visualisations in which you are a natural channel for some "energy"? I'm not asking to be picky and pedantic, I'm genuinely curious as to how much exploring you've done outwith the vampire identity.

I do a fair bit of work within the energy model myself. I have Reiki attunements up to level 3, and I use a lot of energy visualisations in my daily practice. And I'm still completely scoobied by the idea of needing to "feed" from anyone/thing.

From an energy model perspective, I don't see energy pooling up into little reservoirs--people, crowds or whatever--from which one would need to slurp it. I see it as a universal flow pouring naturally and boundlessly through all things--me, you, the chair I'm sitting on, the sky, the earth. I reach up my arms, take a breath, and it's there. When I perform an energy healing, I open myself up as a conduit and just let it run through me. When I raise energy (damn, the word "energy" really chafes after a while) for work requiring some vigorous effort, I make drawing-inwards gestures with my arms towards my middle and visualise the power increasing within me until I'm ready to expend it. But all of the above are informed by the concept of being part of a vast, continuous universal ebb and flow, not being a leaky juice-box in need of regular top-ups from other juice-boxes.

I just find the vampire model strange when I stand it next to my own understanding and experiences. It seems broken somewhere.
 
 
illmatic
11:03 / 04.02.08
Ah, but it's very dark and romantic, isn't it...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
13:21 / 04.02.08
The energy referred to in vampirism is what is referred to in China as Qi/Chi, and in India as prana.

Except that in both of these cultures, the "life energy" referred to as Ki/Chi or Prana is conceived as being boundless and infinite throughout the universe and freely available to all. If you feel you have a shortage, and aren't getting enough of this energy, that's OK. It happens. I don't think most of us are really getting as much good healthy chi intake as we could be. Fortunately, the cultures who coined the convenient terms you are misappropriating also developed some rather sophisticated methods for opening up the human organism so that it can both receive and store more Chi/Prana. These techniques are called tai chi/chi kung and pranayama, respectively. You can normally find someone who teaches these techniques in most urban centres.

How many chi kung classes or pranayama classes have you been to before you settled on the vampire model? 60 classes? 40? If the answer to that question is less than 20, then it strongly suggests that there is something about the self image of "vampire" (and all that goes with it) which is a stronger magnet for you than the desire to try and actually solve the chronic energy deficiency that you claim to suffer from.

You appear to have made the decision that what you have going on here is not a fairly normal chi deficiency that could be remedied by a healthy martial arts or yoga regime, and a less isolated, sedentary lifestyle. You appear to have instead chosen to define your low energy symptoms in terms of a static condition, with no transformative or healing narrative implied. Vampires are stuck as vampires. It is an identity that revels in its own hopelessness - the dark affliction that such creatures of the night must bear for all eternity.

You can't tell a self-identifying vampire that, actually, if you spent a year doing these simple exercises every day you would probably feel a lot better and your low energy symptoms would more than likely disappear - because it is outwith the vampire narrative that they are already heavily invested in. You can't cure vampirism with breathing exercises and stretching in the fantasy novels, because vampirism is an incurable curse and vampires are doomed romantic figures, etc. In order to solve the problem, you would have to uproot the whole vampire mythology, and most self-identifying vampires I've encountered tend to be unwilling to do that.

One of the most frustrating things about your posts above is the way you are very happy to appropriate terms like chi and prana, which you use to give the mythology you are invested in a sense of credibility and a correlation with other spiritual traditions. But your use of these terms is significantly different from how they are framed and experienced in the cultures that formulated them. You are happy to bandy these terms about to suit your own purpose and to help prop up what you already believe, but you don't really seem to be too interested in learning more about the various methods of working with chi or prana that those cultures developed to specifically address energy deficiency and how they might be able to help you. Not if it means you don't get to be a vampire anymore.

You seem to be full of assumptions about how "energy" works that you state as if they were proven and self-evident fact, and that sets the alarm bells ringing as well. Are you sure? What if you were totally off-the-mark with the vampire thing? To what extent are you interrogating it? Your model of it and how it functions seems very, very different from how chi and prana function in China and India. How do you account for that? What's going on there? Where are you getting all of this from? Other self-identifying vampires? The vampire codex? Your own somewhat biased observations? Nothing in your posts suggests that you have much time for the possibility that you might not be a vampire, and everything you have written gives the impression of someone who willfully interprets a whole range of phenomena relating to energy depletion and exhaustion in terms of the self-aggrandising narrative they are strongly invested in. Have you actually tried letting it go? Experimenting with other models of energy work (such as the ones you keep mentioning but appear to be largely ignorant of)? If I genuinely suspected I might have some sort of mythic condition that has passed into folklore as "vampirism" but is actually a real affliction - I would be actively looking for other possible ways of framing it, and other possible ways of remedying it. The fact that you don't appear to be doing either of these things, tends to suggest that you just like identifying as a vampire and all evidence to to the contrary that undermines that position will likely be filtered away.
 
 
gravitybitch
14:41 / 04.02.08
Oh, dear.

I don't have time for a full response (as I should have been out the door already), but...

I know NyteMuse. Neither one of us is a starry-eyed little halfling in love with the idea of not being human... We both have level 3 Reiki attunements, have some skill in working with "energy", have done some experimentation with this. (And, though it probably doesn't need to be said, both of us are responsible adults, capable of living independently, employed in well-paid jobs...)

Neither one of us is entirely happy with the model of "energy vampire" (especially as it exists in the popular imagination!). Unfortunately, it's the best fitting model so far...


My working model is from biology - something like missing an enzyme. Imagine the energetic equivalent to a flaw in the process that allows people to make Vitamin D from exposure to sunshine - if you can get vitamin D from your diet, then not getting it from sun exposure is not a problem...

(more later)
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:51 / 04.02.08
That still doesn't really answer any of my questions.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:33 / 04.02.08
If NyteMuse has a level 3 reiki attunement, how does that model of energy intersect with the rather different conception of energy also being posited? Does NyteMuse actually use and work with the reiki on a regular basis in addition to having received the attunements? Has s/he thoroughly experimented with other forms of energy work such as chi and pranayama to his/her satisfaction and found that they don't solve the problem?

Nobody is calling anybody a "starry-eyed little halfling in love with the idea of not being human". But if someone came to see me in my witchdoctor capacity as a client and told me they thought they might be a "vampire", these would be the basic diagnostic questions I would ask and this would be the course of treatment I would prescribe in the first instance. I can't really take this conversation any further without ascertaining the extent to which NyteMuse has already experimented with the many and varied methods of "energy work" and found them lacking, before buying wholesale into the vampire mythology.

I don't personally believe in vampires, and I won't believe in them until such a time as I encounter someone who can demonstrate that they have thoroughly explored other less prosaic possibilities for modeling their condition before deciding they are vampires. I think that's a pretty reasonable response, and vague statements cribbed from biology about "missing an enzyme" are no more convincing than vague statements cribbed from Eastern religions about chi and prana.

Also, posting under the screen name "NyteMuse" probably doesn't help someone who is trying to claim that the romantic notion of the vampire doesn't hold any fascination or allure for them...
 
 
NyteMuse
19:57 / 04.02.08
I also feel wrung out after social encounters, but I have a more prosaic model as to why. I find interacting with people rather emotionally and intellectually challenging (unless they're good mates and/or I have had a few). I mean, I also feel "drained" after writing a long essay or doing calculus; not because calculus is eating my chi, it's just taxing that way.

*shrug* Could be a difference of opinion. I do agree that writing a long essay or doing calculus is a draining experience, but those are generally regarded as negative or taxing experiences. Having a pleasurable conversation with a close friend is not negative, yet I still find it draining, even if it's not emotionally or intellectually taxing.

Have you tried stepping outside of the energy model altogether and reconsidering your symptoms/experiences from another perspective?

I have been to multiple medical professionals to diagnose the various symptoms (both doctors and psychologists). I have been to holistic practitioners (acupuncture, kinesthesiology, nutritional counseling). I have learned several energetic healing and processing techniques (chi gung, reiki). I have studied different magical techniques of drawing in and utilizing various types of energy. I am currently working with different forms of yoga to try pranayama techniques. If there are other perspectives or arenas I have missed, I am perfectly willing to entertain suggestions. I find this to be more of a burden than anything else at times and if there were alternate methods, I would certainly consider them, though I have little faith they would work (and that has nothing to do with being wedded to the dark n' spooky image...just getting tired of how many other things have been tired to no avail).

You appear to have made the decision that what you have going on here is not a fairly normal chi deficiency that could be remedied by a healthy martial arts or yoga regime, and a less isolated, sedentary lifestyle.

You are making assumptions. I said how I prefer to live my life, but I recognize that is on the unhealthy side so I ignore my preferences. I have spent most of my life fairly active, in gymnastics, dance, several forms of martial arts, firedancing, and other sports. In fact, I was under a quite rigorous shaolin training program for a year, in addition to doing chi work in tai chi/chi gung. None of the above helped, and often seemed to make things worse.

You can't tell a self-identifying vampire that, actually, if you spent a year doing these simple exercises every day you would probably feel a lot better and your low energy symptoms would more than likely disappear - because it is outwith the vampire narrative that they are already heavily invested in. You can't cure vampirism with breathing exercises and stretching in the fantasy novels, because vampirism is an incurable curse and vampires are doomed romantic figures, etc. In order to solve the problem, you would have to uproot the whole vampire mythology, and most self-identifying vampires I've encountered tend to be unwilling to do that.

I have no idea which self-identifying vampires you've met, but it seems to be a limited sample, as the majority of the self-identifying vampires I've met reject about 95% of what you describe, with the romantic dark literary figures.

The fact that you don't appear to be doing either of these things, tends to suggest that you just like identifying as a vampire and all evidence to to the contrary that undermines that position will likely be filtered away.

*shrug* I'm not responsible for your assumptions, which you are basing on a very limited assortment of information, as I'm not exactly a regular poster on here so you don't know me that well. I have explored other possibilities and continue to do so, when something appears that makes sense that I haven't already examined, or that other people I know and trust haven't. If my posts suggested anything to the contrary, well...I tend to be rather terse at times, and it's been a busy week.

If NyteMuse has a level 3 reiki attunement, how does that model of energy intersect with the rather different conception of energy also being posited? Does NyteMuse actually use and work with the reiki on a regular basis in addition to having received the attunements? Has s/he thoroughly experimented with other forms of energy work such as chi and pranayama to his/her satisfaction and found that they don't solve the problem?

For your information, I do give myself reiki treatments on a daily basis, as well as others as needed. It's fun, feels good, not sustaining. My conception of energy is that different energies have different properties or resonances to them (no, really...I'm not trying to use RPG terms). Electricity is not the same as reiki, but they're both still energy by virtue of not being matter. You can't use reiki to power a laptop. Substances are often changed by the container they pass through. The way I perceive things, that universal life energy works through a plant or animal or human and comes out changed. Some vampires claim to be able to be just fine with "prana from the sun" (used in quotes because I don't use that phrase myself), but that's just not me. Since I am human, and what I am lacking is energy to fuel humans, taking the cast-offs or excess from other humans is the most effective for the system.
I studied a combined program of tai chi and chi gung for a year, and am currently experimenting with a few forms of yoga. I also studied traditional chinese medicine in college. I am familiar with chi work, and yes, it can help generate MASSIVE amounts of energy, but again, it's not the right type.

I can't really take this conversation any further without ascertaining the extent to which NyteMuse has already experimented with the many and varied methods of "energy work" and found them lacking, before buying wholesale into the vampire mythology.

I'm not asking you or anyone to "buy wholesale into the vampire mythology". I don't give a flying fig if anyone on here believes in it or not. Questions were asked, I am answering them to the best of my ability. If my answers don't satisfy you and you still don't believe modern vampirism exists, fine, and the conversation can end here; I certainly don't need a soapbox. I'm trying very hard not to pull a "You guys are mean, I'm going home" because I know that's just plain immature and doesn't really help matters any, and I don't know if it's the whole Mercury retrograde thing (still not sure how much I believe in the rocks in space) but I'm feeling pretty attacked here for just being honest. A lot of things, especially of the magic or energy persuasion, are hard to prove over distance or by talking about them. I'm not trying to cop-out by saying I can't prove something, I just really can't, so I also accept that since I CAN'T prove it, there will still be people who disbelieve, which I'm fine with. If you have specific questions, I will do my best to answer them, but I am less interested in being told that I am wrong about how I perceive myself and my surroundings, when you don't know me. Corrections about objective facts I welcome (if I truly am misappropriating the terms prana and chi...I don't use them often, and use them as I was taught by my professors and sifu), but I don't feel anyone can correct someone on a subjective perception.

I don't personally believe in vampires, and I won't believe in them until such a time as I encounter someone who can demonstrate that they have thoroughly explored other less prosaic possibilities for modeling their condition before deciding they are vampires.

That's your prerogative. As I said above, my mission in life is not to convert or proselytize. I was under the impression people had questions, I saw no one else stepping up to answer, so I made an attempt.

Also, posting under the screen name "NyteMuse" probably doesn't help someone who is trying to claim that the romantic notion of the vampire doesn't hold any fascination or allure for them...

I've been using the handle for many many years now, before I encountered the vampire community. I am a goth and an appreciator of the arts, hence NyteMuse. And so nice to see I'm being judged based on a username, and a judgment with such a tenuous connection...not like I'm using a name like "VampLover" or "Lestat's Bitch".
I also never claimed that the literary vampire didn't fascinate me, so please don't put words in my mouth. I don't like the fact that my condition is currently best described by such a vague and negatively charged word, so I do generally try and avoid bringing it up, but I have found that if I try and use another word and then describe it, the response invariably is "Oh, so like a vampire."

FWIW, I don't mind my beliefs and theories being respectfully questioned, so please do not interpret this as a "My beliefs are unassailable and I refuse to listen to you" If someone manages to suggest something that really is well-thought out and makes sense, I am completely willing to consider. It's when I read something as criticizing or insulting (which I hope most are just misinterpretations due to the lack of tones/body language)
 
 
trouser the trouserian
20:31 / 04.02.08
But your use of these terms is significantly different from how they are framed and experienced in the cultures that formulated them.

For example? Prana's a tricky concept. For a start, there's no literal English equivalent term, and it has been translated in a number of different ways (some albeit 'looser' than others). Also, there is no single, over-reaching "definition" of prana in Indian religious language, and given that it's a very ancient concept (first popping up in the Rg Veda) has undergone a wide range of shifts and meanings over the centuries, as one can see by examining the role that prana is given in the Vedas, down through the Brahmanas and the Upanishads, to say nothing of how prana is presented in say, Patanjali's Yoga Sutras or the Hatha Yoga Pradipika. I'd be very interested in discussing how, say, prana is homologised with the three Vedic Sacrificial Fires, but I wouldn't expect many other people would be.

Moreover, I don't think its quite fair to accuse NyteMuse of "appropriating" the term, as prana has been popping up in western esotericism since at least the mid-eighteenth century, and indeed was syncretised with western energetic bodily discourses (notably Mesmerism) at the turn of the 20th century by Swami Vivekananda, no less.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:38 / 04.02.08
On a slight tangent - do you get any cool stuff? I mean, you know, superstrength, heightened senses, physical invulnerability, mind control powers, that sort of thing?
 
 
EvskiG
21:13 / 04.02.08
So let me see if I get this.

You consider yourself a vampire:

* I identify as Otherkin; I identify as vampiric.

* Some people are vampiric because of being Otherkin, some because of chakra or subtle body alteration or damage, and some for other reasons.

Because you feel you don’t produce enough energy to sustain yourself:

* Everyone produces energy to sustain their bodies, by eating and drinking well, exercising, resting...vampires don't produce enough.

* In a vamp, the energy produced is less. It's sort of like a credit card, sort of...spending more money than you make in a week or month at your job.

So you need to "feed" on other people:

* to me, vampire connotes relying on human prana.

* I have worked with a donor, and zie has commented on definitely feeling something.

* I've also tried draining from someone without telling them ahead of time and zie noticed, so I feel fairly strongly that something is happening.

Except when you don't, at least not directly.

* The other technique is called ambient feeding, which is drawing in the energy that's kind of in the air that has been given off by those who have passed before.

* there are techniques described for "long distance" feeding or absorption of energy, wherein you visualize a person and visualize . . . drawing energy from them.

You feel drained if you're by yourself.

* I know if I lock myself up away from people for several days, I will get lethargic, hypersensitive, fatigued, irritable, dizziness, migraines, weakness, arrhythmia, and experience a persistent feeling of emptiness and eventually suffer from extreme indigestion and abdominal cramping from eating any food or drink.

And get better if you're near people:

* If I go out where people are or have been, I recover almost immediately.

Except when you feel drained when you're near people:

* Having to work with people or interact with them on almost any level, I tend to find extremely draining.

* I find most people to be very loud and demanding, which is just overstimulus.

* I find people for the most part to be very irritating and prefer my solitude.

* Having a pleasurable conversation with a close friend is not negative, yet I still find it draining, even if it's not emotionally or intellectually taxing.

And get better when you're by yourself:

* Even my closest friends, I eventually just need to go away and have some time by myself.

* When I come home from work or parties, I'm just emotionally and physically drained (and I do a mostly desk-type job so I'm not exerting myself) and need to decompress.

Hmmm.
 
 
NyteMuse
21:45 / 04.02.08
Forgive me if I'm mis-reading, Ev, but in most of your responses it seems like you're trying to pick a fight. If I am wrong, I apologize, but if not...I'm really not interested in that.

So let me see if I get this.
You consider yourself a vampire:
* I identify as Otherkin; I identify as vampiric.

Semantic difference...I rarely identify as "a vampire" unless I need to be terse or keep from confusing people. I don't see vampire as an identity, but as a condition, so I describe myself as vampiric more often than calling myself a vampire.

So you need to "feed" on other people:
Except when you don't, at least not directly.

Indirect feeding is still feeding on the vitality other people, so you are inaccurate when you say "except when you don't". The reason for the different techniques is because directly feeding on a person can be very invasive and it's rude to do so without obtaining permission. I try to work with this as ethically as possible and only directly take from consenting donors. If you were trying to point out a contradiction, I don't see it.

You feel drained if you're by yourself.
And get better if you're near people:

Depends what you mean by "get better".

Except when you feel drained when you're near people:
* Having to work with people or interact with them on almost any level, I tend to find extremely draining.
* I find most people to be very loud and demanding, which is just overstimulus.
* I find people for the most part to be very irritating and prefer my solitude.
* Having a pleasurable conversation with a close friend is not negative, yet I still find it draining, even if it's not emotionally or intellectually taxing.


I find interaction draining...not just standing near people. Besides which, treatment for a condition does not have to be pleasant in order to be effective.

And get better when you're by yourself:
* Even my closest friends, I eventually just need to go away and have some time by myself.
* When I come home from work or parties, I'm just emotionally and physically drained (and I do a mostly desk-type job so I'm not exerting myself) and need to decompress.

How do you define "get better"? I don't get recharged going into hiding, but I need to relax. Nothing in my words that you parroted back suggest that I "get better" going back into isolation. "Decompress" and "have some time by myself" are not the same as recharging, so your attempt to find a contradiction did not work.

I will reiterate my earlier point: if you have questions, I will answer, but I did not speak up to be insulted.
 
 
NyteMuse
21:47 / 04.02.08
On a slight tangent - do you get any cool stuff? I mean, you know, superstrength, heightened senses, physical invulnerability, mind control powers, that sort of thing?

*snerk* Don't I wish.

Some vampires report increased sensitivity or senses, or greater magical ability, but the same skills can be learned by anyone interested in studying psionics or magic. In fact, any ability that a vamp claims to have could be learnable by anyone. No spiffy bonus gifts for joining the club, just lots of drawbacks.
 
 
EvskiG
22:07 / 04.02.08
in most of your responses it seems like you're trying to pick a fight

Actually, I'm just baffled.

From the comments I noted above, your reactions to stress, people, work, being alone, and being with others seem pretty unremarkable. Sometimes (maybe even often) you get stressed and feel low energy. Certain visualization or other energy-related exercises (which you characterize as "feeding") help you feel better.

Aside from a desire to romanticize your situation, I don't really see why any of this requires a "vampire" (or "vampiric") label.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:32 / 04.02.08
VAMPYRECRAFTE

I would be interested to know what you make of the above Nytemuse, what are its pros and cons, you have already given your opinion on cyberfeeding.

There are a few interesting ideas in it in my opinion but i feel the context even destroys the validity of the more interesting ideas in the presentation of other information.

Especially some of the deity figures presented. What are the consequences of presenting information in such a fashion, as if oshun for example is a dark goddess?

I am not implying that you would at all do this, as the page above does, but would be interested to know what your opinions of the VAMPYRECRAFTE are.
 
 
Unconditional Love
22:59 / 04.02.08
There is another option for this which may bear some relevance, this culture seems to have grown up around (to my knowledge) an increased human interactions with screens and other pieces of technology that produce a variety of electro magnetic and other fields.

I know i get really very tired from spending way too long surfing the net or focusing on a screen for long periods of time.

The longer i spend away from screens and lots of electrical devices, the clearer i feel, in the sameway a walk in the country leaves me feeling very refreshed no matter what the whether, so space becomes an issue as well for me, when i have been isolated too long.

Have you ever tried a screen fast so to speak no mobile phones t.v, p.c etc. The body has its own electro magnetic fields which can be disturbed by a variety of physical energies for example microwaves and certain frequency of radio waves.
 
 
EvskiG
23:42 / 04.02.08
I'll elaborate. (And ignore good ol' Arioch for the moment.)

I have a job that regularly kicks the crap out of me. With hobnailed boots.

At the end of a long day I stagger out of work, read a book on the subway, get home and have dinner with my wife, and play with our dogs. By then I feel a whole lot better. Less drained, even.

Now, I could say that I did a bit of ambient feeding on my fellow subway passengers, nipped a bit of prana from the missus, and sucked a bit of chi from Renfield and Mina.

But why would I? It just doesn't seem like a useful model.
 
 
NyteMuse
00:08 / 05.02.08
I have a job that regularly kicks the crap out of me. With hobnailed boots.
At the end of a long day I stagger out of work, read a book on the subway, get home and have dinner with my wife, and play with our dogs. By then I feel a whole lot better. Less drained, even.

OK, now this is getting somewhere. You go home and do those things and feel a whole lot better. A person who identifies as vampiric could do all of those things, eat the healthiest food, have the most fulfilling conversations, get the best rest, and would still not feel better. And it's generally not a directed effort of will to be stubborn (i.e. thinking "I will not feel better from a night's rest").

Now, I could say that I did a bit of ambient feeding on my fellow subway passengers, nipped a bit of prana from the missus, and sucked a bit of chi from Renfield and Mina.


Well sure, you could say you improved your health by walking to alpha centauri and bathing in the light of the star, but that doesn't mean you did. Many psions, psychics, and vamps are sensitive to energy. They can somehow perceive it moving around. They can tell when it is moving into them and when it is not. I can walk into a place that is full of energy and intentionally not take any, which is how I spend most of my day, and I can walk out of it feeling no better than when I walked in. When I am actively taking in energy or feeding, I can tell. Could it be psychosomatic? I guess that's a possibility, though I am skeptical that's the reason, as I was aware of that sensation occurring before I made any conscious effort to direct it so it's not like I was consciously willing it to happen...but I am human, and fallible, so I won't give any fodder to the mill by saying this is how it is unequivocally. If it is psychosomatic *shrug* It works for me.
(Not all vamps are sensitive to that, and it's true they might just be on constant pull, but many are.)
 
 
EmberLeo
00:14 / 05.02.08
Honestly, I get very tired of "it's psychosomatic" being used to justify discarding spiritual explanations left and right.

Partially because it's often insulting.

But also because it makes no bloody difference - if a symptom is psychosomatic, and so is the cure, that whatever cure works is fine. If the visualization that works for somebody with the psychosomatic symptom of "feeling drained" is that they "pull the energy from people" and other variations on this theme aren't working for them...

So what?

--Ember--
 
 
NyteMuse
00:27 / 05.02.08
I would be interested to know what you make of the above Nytemuse, what are its pros and cons, you have already given your opinion on cyberfeeding.

*shrug* I don't really believe in "vampire magic". My energy needs affect how I do ritual sometimes, but I don't practice any kind of specific vampire magic; I study Feri Witchcraft. I know of some supposedly vampire rituals, but they don't really speak to me on any level. Well, there's one, but it's more of a shamanic thing and not something I'd call specifically vampiric. I believe in balance, not seeking out all these vampiric deities *shrug*

I honestly don't feel comfortable making judgments on someone else's belief system. I try not to be a hypocrite, so I don't do things to others that I don't want them to do to me. I have no problem in general with people believing whatever they like so long as:
-they don't harm someone else
-everything done is between consenting (and preferably sane) adults
-they don't try to impose their beliefs on me or devalue me or my choices

Although...the mention of the book the Sanguinarium makes it sound like the site owner/author has picked up some of Father Todd/Sebastian's material...who doesn't have that great of a reputation in the community.
The site layout kind of hurt my eyes, so I couldn't read the whole thing, but I took issue to the "Vampires tend to be able to access their natural abilities and instantly shield or banish any unwanted energies" comment. I get bothered by folks who think that being vampiric automatically equals getting super l33t abilities, or having more natural ability than someone else. IF a vampiric person has better-than-average psychic/psionic abilities, they were either there as a coping mechanism or were developed quickly under duress but are still things that could've been learned by most people (not going to say all, as there do seem to be some folks who are not wired for excellent psychic development). I also kind of roll my eyes at "Vampyrcrafte refers to magickal techniques specifically designed by vampires to take advantage of their unique abilities." These supposed "vampire abilities" are not unique in any way. My witchy friends can do all the stuff that I can, and more. Nothing unique about it.

(I should also amend my earlier comment on cyberfeeding...I don't feel comfortable saying it's impossible but I tend to consider it highly unlikely, and it's not something I can do. I think I may have been a little too adamant or closed-minded before, which I correct here.)
 
 
NyteMuse
00:31 / 05.02.08
Honestly, I get very tired of "it's psychosomatic" being used to justify discarding spiritual explanations left and right.

Partially because it's often insulting.

But also because it makes no bloody difference - if a symptom is psychosomatic, and so is the cure, that whatever cure works is fine. If the visualization that works for somebody with the psychosomatic symptom of "feeling drained" is that they "pull the energy from people" and other variations on this theme aren't working for them...

So what?

Thank you, EmberLeo. This falls back to what I was saying earlier; it's nigh impossible to verify subtle or subjective experiences, so the insistence to try and do so is frustrating at best. If someone is trying to convince me that something exists and sway me to their beliefs, then yes, I will want some kind of proof, but if zie is not trying to force a viewpoint on me and is willing to accept that I don't believe it, then I see no problem letting zir continue to think that way.
Doctors have used placebos in the past to cure patients. If it works and isn't harming anyone, so what?
 
 
EvskiG
03:28 / 05.02.08
"That's my opinion, so it can't be wrong."

"It works for me, so you can't criticize it."

I'm not really sure about either of those statements.

If you believe it or it works for you, that's lovely.

But if you want to discuss it with other people, and if you want other people to give it any more consideration than random noise, you have to support your position with arguments and evidence. Which in turn lead to questions and criticism.

Which you can take or leave, of course.

But if you don't allow for questions and criticism, you're back at that statement a few pages ago:

That's the beauty of the occult world. Nobody's wrong, and yet, at the same time, everyone is right.
 
 
NyteMuse
04:04 / 05.02.08
"That's my opinion, so it can't be wrong."
"It works for me, so you can't criticize it."
I'm not really sure about either of those statements.

And I'm not sure where you got those statements from anything that I wrote. It seems to me that you're trying to condense my whole viewpoint into these short statements, which are inadequate. I did not say my opinion cannot be wrong; what I said was that none of you knows me, so you can't exactly tell me what is wrong. You can point out where you see inconsistencies, and I can answer them, but if I say "I know my system and I know when I'm feeling energy flowing," you can't very well say "No, you don't." (Well, you could...there's nothing stopping you, but it's pretty rude)

I don't have all the time in the world to go through and re-read every bloody sentence I wrote. I opened up all of the pages that I'd posted on and did a search for those lines and could find neither, so if those were my exact words somewhere, please, be more specific from where you got them.

But if you want to discuss it with other people, and if you want other people to give it any more consideration than random noise, you have to support your position with arguments and evidence. Which in turn lead to questions and criticism.

I have never said I did not welcome questions. When asked questions, I give the answers, arguments, and evidence that I have access to. Magical/subtle phenomena is notoriously hard to prove. If you don't accept that as sufficient evidence, fine and move on. But you don't need to pass judgment on me as some deluded lifestyler, inexperienced, biased, or closed-minded.
 
 
gravitybitch
05:11 / 05.02.08
At this point, I don't know if there's anything useful I can add. But I'm going to try...

First off, gah. I don't even know where to start.


Let's try this. I'm a research biologist by trade, have been solving-problems-by-experiment for over 20 years. (Most biological research these days is done by taking a complex system and breaking a small part of it to see what happens, or finding a place where the system is already broken [most diseases] and picking it apart, poking at it with various biochemical tools to try to determine exactly what's broken. This gives me a number of models to use when thinking about a problem, and a basic process-based structure to use in problem-solving; if I grab for a disease-based model to try to explain something, there's generally some thought behind it.)

I've seen NyteMuse go from cranky and lethargic to annoyingly chipper within 20 minutes or so after "energy transfer" (and there was no food, water, caffeine, or exercise involved); I was the "hangover-case" who got such benefit from NyteMuse's presence in a noisy restaurant (the idea of fucking IHOP for breakfast after something like 3 hours of sleep still makes me shudder). We can't do anything like traditional double-blind experiments for this, but we're doing the best we can with the subjective stuff.
 
 
Evil Scientist
07:25 / 05.02.08
I think this is a fascinating conversation. It may be just me but I find it quite refreshing for someone with a slightly different Templeview to be posting, and doing so in what appears to me to be an intelligent, reasonable and calm way.

I'm not making any comment on a for/against basis (for NyteMuse's benefit: reductive/materialist/atheist so I'm more of a lurker-guest in Temple), but I am finding this an interesting read.
 
 
EmberLeo
10:09 / 05.02.08
"It works for me, so you can't criticize it."

Ev, that is way oversimplifying.

But really, from an atheistic perspective, pretty much the entirety of religion and spirituality can be written off as "psychosomatic". So where exactly do you draw the line before it's tossing out the whole conversation?

--Ember--
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:30 / 05.02.08
from an atheistic perspective, pretty much the entirety of religion and spirituality can be written off as "psychosomatic".

I'd disagree with that statement, actually. I've seen and experienced things in the course of my magicoreligious practice which I can't easily dismiss as psychological tricks and glitches.

On the other hand (with the utmost respect to NyteMuse and gravitybitch, who have been very patient and reasonable) I'm not seeing very much in what has been written above that even needs to be explained as psychosomatic, let alone given a magical, spiritual, or occult explanation. For the most part it all sounds like normal human experience being processed through a very specific set of filters and pathologised.

To accept the statement "I am a vampire" I'd need a lot more than I'm getting here, personally. I'm not dismissing it out of hand but that statement is at odds with my own understanding and experience over many years of "energy work" in one form or another.

I've known any number of individuals who claimed to be vampires of one sort or another, and I've met maybe one or two who I'd consider believing it of. I'd need to be looking at a person with a long-term, broad and in-depth magicoreligious practice, including experience of a range of different techniques and perspectives. I'd expect a good solid yoga or tai-chi practice that had been in place for some years. I'd also expect to be looking at a well-rounded human being with a lot more going on in hir life, especially hir magicoreligious life, than being teh Vampyre--a multi-axis offender with a range of other hats besides the black lacy one. Not really seeing any of that here. Sorry.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:56 / 05.02.08
...Also, this? Some vampires claim to be able to be just fine with "prana from the sun" (used in quotes because I don't use that phrase myself)

Oh boy. That person must have to really wanted to call hirself a vampire if ze's getting hir energy from the sun. By that logic a bowl of petunias is a vampire.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:59 / 05.02.08
By that logic a bowl of petunias is a vampire.

Which is why I scour my garden with fire on a regular basis.
 
  

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