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Otherkin

 
  

Page: 123(4)56789... 10

 
 
Quantum
18:47 / 30.11.06
i was afraid people (even four years ago!) would think i was an inu-yasha fantard

I'd never heard fantard before, or superawesome, but the description j is what the internet calls a 'soulbonder' or in other words 'batshit loony' is perfectly concise, like a little shiny diamond of joy.
 
 
lord nuneaton savage
18:54 / 30.11.06
Sorry to interupt, but can I just baggsy Bully the Bullseye Bull? Cheers.

*two thumbs up*

WAHEEEEY!!!
 
 
Blake Head
19:00 / 30.11.06
Sort of going in the opposite direction...

There are some thoughts on the links between roleplaying and being otherkin on page two, particularly with regard to the former becoming maladaptive, which also touched on the depths of detail that are reached in both activities in the construction of their persona. So I wondered if there was a little more to explore in terms of role playing or acting, collaborative fiction, adopting fictionsuits and personas from fictions, and so on, being creative, not necessarily magical, practices with varying degrees of maladaption to “real” life.

Over in the Magick as maladaptive coping device thread, Quantum described viewing magic… “Rather than a coping mechanism or escape (I have reading, roleplaying, and drugs for that)”. At the same time at least two of the links from the thread’s opening post actively distance themselves from roleplaying, claiming that roleplaying the character of a were-creature, vampire, mythological creature etc is strictly different from believing that one truly is one on the inside, while presumably there is a much greater overlap in the community at large. It’s obviously in the interests of otherkin groups to distance themselves from the idea that it’s pure escapism.

Nevertheless, there’s certainly a similar investment of energy and concentration on details that will make the role’s identity more “realistic”, I suspect a broadly similar and overlapping demographic, and the central thing really, the creation or attempted insertion into other fictional paradigms where qualities other than one’s inherent (is that the right word here?) ones can be imaginatively played out. There is, obviously, a conceptual break whenever the roleplaying / videogaming / whatever ceases to be a fictitious and becomes an actual exploration of another world, as Mordant’s link above shows, but it still feels like there’s plenty of parallels.

In my experience of roleplaying there are, similarly to other experiences described above, there are those who use it in a quite a basic ego-boosting way, which I think, while often being awful self-empowerment clichés, can have some good in allowing, for example, social skills to develop in a temporary persona which might not be cultivated in that individual in their normal environment. While there are others, a little more experienced, who enjoy taking on roles from very different or minor areas of their standard personalities, and there’s plenty of scope for them to use these fictions for entertainment, or exploration of certain values/ideas, but you also witness the people who do so with elements of a compulsion which suggests that it is escapist, in a stronger sense, and that they are seeking a greater detachment from their normal selves. I was just wondering if people had thoughts on the seeming closeness of these things as forms of creative escapism, and where you think the break exists between them?

xk: If your intent is to escape the difficulties of who you are by imagining a past that's not the same as deciding to cope with your situation by becoming something new.

I might not be following you xk, but is the crucial difference because of the retrospective creation of a fictional identity, or because of what that identity is, or both?

In terms of the difference between temporary and long-term adoption of a role, while adopting characteristics that are “cool or aesthetically pleasing” doesn’t necessarily lead to a tasteful identity, presumably there are individuals (as with roleplaying), if much, much less well represented within the community as a whole, who do find identification with less tasteless omni-capable creatures, and the identities they adopt do give them a greater perspective on their personal/social difficulties. It might be more defensive or escapist than a “live”, ongoing, magical renewing of self, but presumably identifying with an other, in whatever form, holds several possibilities in terms of viewing oneself significantly differently i.e. not just as victims or predators.
 
 
Ticker
22:43 / 30.11.06
xk: If your intent is to escape the difficulties of who you are by imagining a past that's not the same as deciding to cope with your situation by becoming something new.

I might not be following you xk, but is the crucial difference because of the retrospective creation of a fictional identity, or because of what that identity is, or both?


none of the above. The crucial difference is does the identity (regardless of source, mind you) help you cope with your current life in a more successful manner than another identity. So is being Otherkin of whatever flavor equip you with coping skills to help you met the challenges of your current life? If the answer is yes, than rock on. If the answer is no and it is merely reinforcing your perceptions of alienation and segregation best to roll another.

As for the RPG aspect I should like to revist the idea of performace art and other forms of creative play including LARP. These are very time consuming and intense forms of expression for some folks. That's not the issue, nor would I say the use of any form of entertainment that as a form of play (even very serious play) relieves stress and provides valuable community interaction. The problem as I see it is when the activity begins to narrow the range of a person's experience of the world too much.

It might be more defensive or escapist than a “live”, ongoing, magical renewing of self, but presumably identifying with an other, in whatever form, holds several possibilities in terms of viewing oneself significantly differently i.e. not just as victims or predators.

Well I'm not sure the issue is about escapist vs. transformative as much as it as adaptive vs. maladaptive. My experience has taught me that a lot of things that sound crazy have some resonace with something useful but that many crazy things are not useful and instead are pitfalls of obsession. Does magic fall into this category for some people? Sure. So does romantic relationships, food, and shopping. I'm not condemning any process that is adaptive but rather questioning why building an identity around alienation would be desireable. What privilege/advantage is it bestowing?

The Otherkin may not all be about victims and predators but it is most assuredly about not being human. There is alienation from humanity and a choosing to distance ones self from it. In achieving a sense of specialness (which many many belief systems do that is often the point). I'll ask again what privilege or advantage is gain by this elective postioning of the self outside of the bulk of humanity by a predominately young culturally privileged* class of people?





*they have internet access, leisure time for reading fantasy and game playing. I'm not sure about the human heritage racial breakdown....
 
 
Char Aina
01:41 / 01.12.06
jesus, that story about the shoes was horrible.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:32 / 01.12.06
So is being Otherkin of whatever flavor equip you with coping skills to help you met the challenges of your current life? If the answer is yes, than rock on. If the answer is no and it is merely reinforcing your perceptions of alienation and segregation best to roll another.

One of the more disturbing aspects of the subculture is that, because the nonhuman identity is regarded as intrinsic and objectively real, this is unlikely to happen. You can't back out and choose another paradigm without taking a severe hit to the ego as you are abandoning not a mask but a set of cherished beliefs (however dumbassed they may look to us hyoomons). If being Princess Elven Moonblossom of House M'duppe gets too much for you, that's just tough-you're stuck with her. You have to keep trying to conform to the role, no matter how awkward or restrictive it is. Hence, I suppose, the tacking-on of extensions to one's Otherkin persona and the resultant fairy-pixie-bat-kitty-vampire-demon chimerae mentioned above.
 
 
Ticker
14:02 / 01.12.06
One of the more disturbing aspects of the subculture is that, because the nonhuman identity is regarded as intrinsic and objectively real, this is unlikely to happen.

I see what you're saying Mordant, but I've known plenty of folks who have faced the idea of eternal damnation and still rejected a belief system that wasn't working for them. In fact I'd dare say that rejecting a belief system adopted in quasi adulthood may be psychologically less traumatizing than rejecting one you're indoctrinated in from birth.

Many beliefs are seductive and it can be painful to be disillusioned if not down right crippling for a time. I'm not sure believing oneself to be a reincarnated Fey is more invasive than say, believing oneself being the chosen marriage partner of a Deity, or believing oneself to have been shaped as a tool for Destiny.

A litmus test for functionality must on some level being able to let go of a belief if it is revealed to be untrue or actively harmful.
 
 
Papess
15:42 / 01.12.06
Wow. Check out Jen's bio.

That is creepy. Talk about tyranny of the INcompetant - toxic dynamics and deluded minds. Too bad it is not over for some people, as it seems this continues on and this is certainly not an isolated phenomenon.

Jen is clearly ill, but what of those other people? The whole situation and everyone involved seems to be deluded, thus making it hard for me to accept the story itself.
 
 
illmatic
15:47 / 01.12.06
I am trained with the sword, the staff, the long bow, the crossbow, throwing daggers, and the most deadly of all, the towel.

Woo! A Hitchikers fan, no less.
 
 
Quantum
16:14 / 01.12.06
my Best guy friend was created in a super secret laboratory in Glendale...
I really want these panic attacks to go AWAY. And sleep would be nice. While I'm at it, I wish I had a pony.


It reads like Johnen Vasquez.
 
 
Ticker
17:59 / 01.12.06
I'm thinking about all the lies I told when I was twelve and younger when my life was just so not enough. I'm fairly certain these glamorization lies dropped off by my late teens when I suddenly had things to talk about because of the sudden appearence of a life.

I've known a few adults who never seemed to grow out of the habit of BS embellishing their past and present because there just wasn't anything there without the lies. In some cases the depth of lies was down right jaw droppingly complex.

I'm also fairly certain JTHM would know exactly what to do with this person.


On a serious note a very nice thoughtful person I met told me she was Otherkin. She was a pretty spectacular person with an awful lot of real life things going on. So I'm hesitant to slap the wish-fufillment-only tag on the Otherkin bin. Is there some totem animal something or other mixed into this that we're getting distracted from looking at?
 
 
Papess
18:01 / 01.12.06
What worries me is the same toxic behavior of scapegoating, is present also in the "Shoe Story". Maybe at the beginning of the story the author claims some responsibility, but of course doesn't really point out during their story the times they should be responsible. It is much easier to villify someone else than admitting wrong actions you have done yourself. The bio, for all I know may not be real. Perhaps. it was a personal fiction Jen had written, who knows. Irregardless, it is sad and twisted, and certainly not proper magick.

I suppose this is the danger of magickal skills and mental illness. Just because you have all the ingredients of a cake, doesn't mean you have a cake. Also, it really helps to know yourself and your personal handicaps before climbing the magickal mountain. Reading about Jen was like watching a snake try to ice skate.
 
 
Papess
18:03 / 01.12.06
Is there some totem animal something or other mixed into this that we're getting distracted from looking at?

Now, there is a much more balanced approach.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:05 / 01.12.06
I'm not sure believing oneself to be a reincarnated Fey is more invasive than say, believing oneself being the chosen marriage partner of a Deity, or believing oneself to have been shaped as a tool for Destiny.

Oh sure. Wasn't really comparing the belief that one is a reincarnated Fae/Werewolf/Dragon etc to other beliefs of a similarly powerful nature involving permanent identity structures. I was thinking more of the difference between choosing to consciously adopt an "elf" or "dragon" persona as a means to further one's development, and believing oneself to literally be a dragon.

I also think that the Otherkin subculture (or so it seems to me) offers a lot more reinforcement to one's beliefs than the subcultures surrounding the examples you offer. A person walking into an Otherkin community and announcing hirself to be a dragon will likely be met with "OMG me too!" Godspouses, unless they come from a trad where the phenomenon is well-recognised, will often find they've put other worshippers' noses out of joint.
 
 
Ticker
19:03 / 01.12.06
well see that's it, if you have a community that upholds your beliefs and reinforces/validates them it's much different than if people are pushing you to reevaluate.

as a side note I'm not sure why but I have equally high tolerance for claims of being lots of things but the whole reincarnation of a fictional character just makes me cross eyed. The spouse pointed out the issue with being born before the character in question was invented. Which lead to a discussion on the channeled vision thing and we both just felt that was so weak as to be hardly the stuff to build an identity on.

Reincarnation is a pretty tricky subject on its own regular human style. The animal human aspects get even more confusing and now we have mythical beings and imaginary. Out of all the areas of life and death I've been interested in I've had very little need to poke around in past lives. It has seemed to me that the point is to focus on now and if it was really an important factor we'd all be born with clear memories of previous lives that stayed crystal clear.

that said to use the analogy of this life of course knowing details of childhood experience help us deconstruct our adult modes of reaction. Yet often many of us can't remember what traumatic thing caused us to hate car rides or mayo jars or be deathly afraid of clowns. We just know we are and figure it out as we go along. Hopefully.

Ok so does remembering your Otherkin incarnation help you source why you have a poor reaction to something now in your life? Or did you have something in this life that did it? I mean why dial back the lives if the reason you have issues with trusting women is your current mother left you in the store and not the virgin that lured your unicorn self into the trap?

As for the totem aspect of Otherkin I suspect it is quite normal for people to be attracted to traits of magical beautiful creatures. It was normal for the girls of my youth to have a thing for horses because they were wild'n'free and powerful and all that. I still have a black winged pegasus plaque somewhere that I begged my mother for from that era. I should dig it out and post a pic of it....it's pretty classic mall art.

Anyway I sort of feel like if what the Otherkin are up to is blurring the lines with a chosen totem's traits and their own ID then that could be a fledgling magical act. It carries the seeds of asking a guide to help you.


I'm so going to look for that piece of fine childhood art when I get home.
 
 
Blake Head
19:16 / 01.12.06
So let us assume that reality is much more flexible than our own tunnel vision generally supposes…

Perhaps for some Otherkin, the very acknowledgement of being Other and bringing that into everyday life is an ongoing ritual. It may not be acknowledged as such; however, it is an action that allows the person to access a reality other than the physical, human one on a permanent basis… Nicholas Graham, author of The Four Powers, wrote an essay in his blog that captures the idea of the Collective Unconscious-part of that which is attained by all forms of ritual, formal or informal-flowing into our own 'solid' reality. He makes the point that it is entirely possible that because of the lack of a cohesive cultural mythology in many postindustrial societies, that the archetypes and motifs of mythology are making themselves known via certain people who are able to channel them on a day to day basis… He concludes with this thought:

The most important factor to remember when examining the possibility of delusive behavior in Otherkin is that humans, by their very natures, desire personal mythology. From time immemorial, humans have sought ways of more fully interacting with the spirits and energized archetypes with whom they interacted. Often, this is done by self-mythologizing or, in other words, living out a personalized version of the mythology of an archetype. Jung suggested (also in An Answer to Job) that this is a natural process in the lives of most people. He went on to suggest that it forms the foundation of the almost universal (culturally, not individually) belief in fate or destiny; as we live in a manner congruent with the chosen archetype (god, goddess, spirit), not only do our psychic lives change in accordance but so too do our material lives through the efforts of these spirits and gods. I cannot overstress the importance of this factor in the psycho-spiritual study of Otherkin.

While the idea of accessing alternate realities is ancient, there is a specific modern manifestation of it known as Soulbonding.

Soulbonding appears to be a hybridation of imagination and the belief in alternate/parallel realities. It has been theorized that fiction is nothing less than a channeling of an existing alternate reality. Taylor Ellwood, for example, mentions this in Space/Time Magic:

[W]hen a writer writes about a fantasy world, sie is either creating that world in alternate reality, or, more likely, tapping into that alternate reality-It's my thought that writing, being a very intuitive practice (when done creatively) leads people to tap into other realities, other versions of the self' Some writers also note that characters seem to be alive and have their own personalities, which consequently affect their writing. Perhaps this is because they have actually connected with an alternate self, and are transcribing that self's experiences into writing that we consider fantasy or SF [science fiction]. In contacting this self, the author becomes a medium for a polyphony of other characters, transcribing the voices of many into the reality of the word.

First defined by writer Amanda Flowers, Soulbonding most often occurs between a writer and a character sie is writing about, though that character may not necessarily be of hir own creation. Soulbonders consciously allow their Soulbonds (characters)-whether they believe them to be independent entities or not-to interact with them and become a part of them on a daily basis; in some cases, in the same way a multiples, the original soul of the body may front less than the Soulbond. Whether the Soulbonds originate with the Soulbonder or not, there is often a created environment in which all parties involved interact, often known as a Soulscape.


(bottom of the page, hopefully tying into the personal totem aspect)

Looking around, Soulbonding has a livejournal devoted to it (http://community.livejournal.com/soulbonding), with links to other sites - for example a recently created journal for “people who use the Force in whatever fashion”, and who identify primarily as “soulbonds” or “fiction-kin”. Now, isn’t something quite different happening here? Medicloreans aside, there’s an identification here with something which is theoretically open to all (humans included), has an empowering philosophy, and hypothetically speaking, grants nifty blindfolded lightsabre wielding powers.

If Otherkin are people who identify as other than human, I’m not quite sure how this intersects with identification with fictional characters/paradigms (of whatever origin) where there’s going to be a mix of the human and non-human. Or has the notion of Otherkin been stretched to point of being increasingly inaccurate? If this is a question of accessibility, in terms of who can access these other states of identity reality (is it intrinsic to those who claim to, or do experience it, or is it open to anyone?) what’s to differentiate this sort of communication with clearly fictional worlds from more rigorous magical practice? Where the level of detail or energy spent on this communication is high in both cases, structural rigour would seem only to mark a difference of degree, leading to personal experience as a marker of “true” interaction with mythological figures / archetypes. And my lack of experience in this area might again be showing, but if the meaning of Otherkin is inflated to include identification with or belief in abstract fictions (which nevertheless have an independent existence, can be “used” or grant powers / traits) how is that different to, or rather how can that be separated from, some views on traditional magic or belief?

xk: I'm not sure the issue is about escapist vs. transformative as much as it as adaptive vs. maladaptive.

Thanks for very concisely getting right to the point of what I was garbling about. I very much agree about the importance of rigid maladaptive traits which offer a narrowing perspective on social interaction. To get to your second point, how much do you really think Otherkins are actually achieving that alienation from mundane humanity? Aside from their derivative self-description, they don’t seem to be accessing any radical alterity so much as dressing up very conventional, very non-alien traits as a way of appearing (to themselves, to their subculture) as something more than they are. What struck me about some of the examples above were how painfully exposed and human the emotional dramas on display were, and as per your own example, plenty of them would appear to be perfectly normal with the Otherkin tag being another lifestyle choice for which they don’t expect acceptance.

Apologies for the long quote and all the questions, but I’m struggling here. I mean… fiction-kin?

And, incidentally, is “sie” an iteration of our own “ze” (I see a hir in the quote above also) or does anyone know if this is Otherkn specific?
 
 
Saturn's nod
19:31 / 01.12.06
No, not Otherkin specific as far as I know, I've seen sie or zie as a nongender pronoun in other contexts.
 
 
Ticker
19:56 / 01.12.06
Otakukin-a combination of the words otaku and otherkin--was coined to specifically refer to those otherkin who are heavily influenced by, live with/in, deal with, or are otherwise intimately connected to an Anime/Manga/Live-Action/VGM or related 'dimension', 'world', or paradigm. The initial concept of a supposedly 'fictional' paradigm and/or cosmology having partial or complete basis in an alternative reality is not uncommon among otherkin.


I agree with the Jungian perspective on a lot of it as myth building (I think I mentioned so up thread?). That's not my issue. My issue is limiting oneself to modern myth when there is a a metric shit ton of really viable stuff to dig into if you look. Much of the older surviving myths have layers of meaning and greater range of functionality than say a LKH book.

Now older isn't automatically better but older and surviving sometimes means depth of resonance. Myth accrues power as it evolves and channels the Archetypes into unique messages.

Okso I'm back to my original statement of if it works as a cosmology, great. If not there are some really time tested kick ass other options.

As for the alienation the Otherkin stuff I've read has a lot of comfort because-you-are-different coupled with people-who-aren't-Otherkin-will-try-to-tell-you-it-isn't-real/valid. This second bit is often used in the Othering of people. Othering is a nasty technique that allows you to dismiss the value of other humans because they are not the same as you. Been used for a very long time for racial/sexual/gender discrimination.
 
 
EmberLeo
23:38 / 01.12.06
Here's a question- are there any older otherkin? I find the idea of a forty year old were-pyro-uni-dragon unlikely, it smacks of a certain time of life. - Quantum

So I'm hesitant to slap the wish-fufillment-only tag on the Otherkin bin. Is there some totem animal something or other mixed into this that we're getting distracted from looking at? - xk

I would say yes, from my personal experience with a small handfull of folks I take seriously who would be labelled "Otherkin" if they weren't otherwise pretty sane. I know a few people in their 30s and 40s who have what I call "afinities", which is a term I took up before I heard of Otherkin, and I use now to distinguish between folks who I percieve to have something real and magical going on vs. people who have a very active and vivid imagination coupled with a need to deny their own humanity.

I know examples of what you might call lycanthropic, fey, or draconic otherkin. They certainly don't handle those afinities at all the way online otherkin do. Most of them allow for RPGs as a form of expression, but none of them take RPGs seriously as anything other than a fun, creative outlet, and I think only a couple of them use RPGs as a way of expressing their relationship to their afinities at all.

Each of the people I have in mind do actually have strong magic, to my perception, which is the primary context where their afinities come into play. By any mundane/muggle/scientific/literal standard they consider themselves human. None of them are stacked were-dragon-pixies. Just the one afinity each, handled magically about how I'd handle fylgja.

Is there a less loaded word for a non-human spiritual ally that you consider an aspect of yourself, rather than a sepparate being? "Totem" is a word that I know does not mean quite the same thing in the tradition it comes from as it means the way we usually use it today. Fylgja is appropriate, I think, but so culturally specific...

This:
There are some thoughts on the links between roleplaying and being otherkin on page two, particularly with regard to the former becoming maladaptive, which also touched on the depths of detail that are reached in both activities in the construction of their persona.

And this:
My experience has taught me that a lot of things that sound crazy have some resonace with something useful but that many crazy things are not useful and instead are pitfalls of obsession. Does magic fall into this category for some people? Sure. So does romantic relationships, food, and shopping. -xk

Remind me of a particular experience in this area. I'm not sure if maladaptive is the word. At one point while I was still LARPing frequently I got stuck in my Lion Sarr NERO character enough for a few minutes that I actually forgot my real self. After a bit of pondering how it was high time I settled down and had "cubs" I realized there was something wrong, and snapped back into my usual headspace, and then decided I needed a break very badly. It was an intense experience nobody else was around to see, and I have (thankfully) never repeated it. Even in the real posessory work I've experienced, I know the difference between me and the posessing entity - I have never, while sharing space with another, forgotten myself. But somehow I've done it while pretending very hard to be another me who happens to be a different species.

Having explained to a (then) friend at this experience with altered conciousness, she went around telling the community how concerned she was that I considered LARPing the same as real Posessory work with our holy and sacred gods. Er, no. I consider the word "trance" to mean more than just a very specific type of neo-shamanic magic. I don't consider her a friend anymore.

It wouldn't surprise me if a few experiences like these have lead some otherkin to deeply believe in their own stories, however fictional. And yet, it's very easy for people who actually can tell the difference between contexts to be accused of not knowing the difference because somebody decided to misinterpret what they've said about their experiences. I'd be lying to say I've never experienced a blurring of the lines. I'd be lying to say I've never had a LARP experience get shifted into something else, psychologically or magically. Even if, on rare occasion, I can't be positive I've sorted out which of the borderline bits were because of the game and which were something (or someone) else, it doesn't mean I don't know there's a difference between the game and the other realities I function in.

You have to keep trying to conform to the role, no matter how awkward or restrictive it is. Hence, I suppose, the tacking-on of extensions to one's Otherkin persona and the resultant fairy-pixie-bat-kitty-vampire-demon chimerae mentioned above.

Oooh, that's a great point, I hadn't thought of that. I always thought it was just an extension of the same thing that makes a Manticore a Human/Lion/Scorpion, etc. How much of a stretch is it, if you're already both human and one other thing for you to be human and three other things? And yet I find that when it comes to Otherkin, I do blink more when they've stacked it on like that.

Mixing doesn't bother me so much in other contexts, though. I never expected to have a menagerie of allies, but now I have one, earned honestly, who am I to say somebody else's menagerie is wrong?

Check out Jen's bio.

*tilts head* I don't believe the person who wrote this believed they were telling the truth. Many of the sentences are phrased "I'm this and that and oh yeah this other thing". That's a phrasing used for parody, generally.
----

In general I think maybe I should just shut up and let xk say all the intelligent stuff I would have said less succinctly. ;p

--Ember--
 
 
setsuna
02:18 / 02.12.06
xk: As for the totem aspect of Otherkin I suspect it is quite normal for people to be attracted to traits of magical beautiful creatures. It was normal for the girls of my youth to have a thing for horses because they were wild'n'free and powerful and all that.

I spent many a grade-school recess galloping around the playground pretending to be a horse with my friends. We were very, very serious about it, too. I still have all my Breyer horse models packed away somewhere.

I then graduated to a Raistlin Majere obsession, and embarassing as it is to admit this, I was one of those 12-year-olds who desperately wanted to 'soul-bond' with him. I was convinced he had to exist somewhere out there in the ether or something, since enough people thought about him and even believed in him. My first brush with the concept of thought-forms as wish fufillment.

There are a lot of sensitive, intelligent and imaginative people in the fanfic and LARP communities, and a lot of self-insertion as wish fufillment goes on there. Many are also incredibly creative, but for whatever reason, afraid to take a chance on putting their own artistic voice out there.

Which makes me wonder if identifying as Otherkin for many isn't simply a mundane - albeit rather neurotic - sublimated expression of the creative impulse, driven by that universal human desire to be special. It takes a bit of that child-like state where we could believe we were horses (or the astral bride of fictional characters) to create in the first place. This whole phenomenon just smacks of some kind of displacement thing to me.

When I think back on how deeply and sincerely I wanted Raistlin to be real (cut me a little slack - I was twelve), to the point where it almost felt like I could reach the guy if I just closed my eyes and clicked my heels or something, I can see how these folks might want to take all that creativity and imagination and make a personal mythology out of that impulse.

Is there somethng magical going on? Maybe by accident, for some. Whenever that much mental and emotional energy is channeled into a construct, especially if it's an internal one, it seems to me there's a good chance actual change could take place. Whether it's some vague placebo-effect result or from some inadvertent contact with Something Else, I don't know.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
04:35 / 02.12.06
I wonder about this 'shoes' character. Is his(?) version of events chez Jen necessarily to be trusted? Certain aspects of the account (Jen's room 'smelled of poon', it's impossible for anyone to talk to the Mom, whereas the distant Dad pretty much functions as a God in this account, whch begs the question - why didn't he phone him earlier, etc,) would tend to suggest that he might have issues of his own.

Intentionally or otherwise, the 'shoes' diary reads a bit like clever-ish fiction - there's the emphasis on the unweildy computer, (the TOWER,) the rat and so on, which items mean he can't possibly leave the flat until it turns out he actually can, once the sympathy's been properly established. Similarly, Jen doesn't seem like the kind of person who's inclined to hide anything - why wouldn't she mention her girlfriend in her blog? Unless, I suppose, her relationship with same was as textbook terrible (the rotting food, the power games, the loud, violent sex, like cats being tortured, etc, etc, etc,) as the 'shoes' guy would have us believe.

Hypothetically, if I was the Otherkin reincarnation of an entity that was not known to this version of the universe until sometime after I was born, and I really wanted to have a pop at somebody who'd had the temerity to question my credentials as an extra-special being over the interweb, then I'd go about doing it in exactly the same way.
 
 
Papess
14:22 / 02.12.06
xk:Now older isn't automatically better but older and surviving sometimes means depth of resonance. Myth accrues power as it evolves and channels the Archetypes into unique messages.

There is more certainty with an old Diety. There is not much to draw on from a fictional character. There is no assurance that the fic-character chosen has any ability to be transcendental or divine. It makes sense to me that if you chose mundane "entities" on a consistant basis as a source of inspiration and focus of devotion, it only makes sense that results would be rather mundane.

Personally, I don't get Otakukin, (I believe I was confusing the two terms earlier, apologies). I think the few times I have used a fictional character, I felt the limitations of the entity, if there was an actual entity at all. Not every seed (read:idea) has to be fertilized. The characters that are having sentience attributed to them I can't even get a reading off of them! Any animation (heh) I feel in regards to them, is that which I would have to imbue them with myself. Their "life-force" seems to only come from me. Entities from folklore (dragons, elves, vampires, and seemingly more of a source for the Otherkins), seem to have more substance to them, but these entities are usually not divine nor transcendental and are limited, as well - that is just from my own personal experience. Anyway, my point is that one reaps, what one sows....and you get what you pay for!

Quantum:I know examples of what you might call lycanthropic, fey, or draconic otherkin. They certainly don't handle those afinities at all the way online otherkin do. Most of them allow for RPGs as a form of expression, but none of them take RPGs seriously as anything other than a fun, creative outlet, and I think only a couple of them use RPGs as a way of expressing their relationship to their afinities at all.

That is a good distinction as to what level of seriousness the kinship with said entity has. In fact, I think that separating the gaming from the otherkinship is crucial for any real magickal work to take place or even just a sincere connection to the being in question. The game is just a game, afterall, no matter how deluded you are. Literally and figuratively, you are just playin' around.

So, otherkin has possibility of having magickal substance, IMHO, but otakukin...I just don't see how anyone can glean anything from the characters they use. Accepting one, does in no way mean, I have to accept the other, (or rather...the otaku).

What separates otherkin and otakukin for me is, where the chosen "entity" comes from. Folklore-type beings, for example, have connections to elementals and that type of intrinsic connection to our environment. A Deity generally embodies some omnipresent archetype and their myth is one that has been aligned with that, in some quite mysterious and inexplicable manner. An anime character, or gaming character, will just never emanate that kind of mystery or complexity in one human lifetime. Perhaps, they are just renaming our archetypes.

One thing that I do believe: If one has attained the "status" of an avatar or is an emanation of a Deity, then that one has to be able to honour that Deity in everyone else. To think that oneself alone embodies the deity is folly, and quite insulting to the deity, if one thinks about it. Anyway, to just attribute deity status to yourself and not recognize it in anyone else is so delusional and egotistical it is bound to lead to problems, not to mention the possibility of an pissed off Deity. I am not sure if this applies in the case of elemental-folklore type beings that the Otherkin use often.

I have to wonder what it is about our society that it cultivates this type of over-compensating obsessiveness and flagrant disassociativeness that triggers situations such as "No Shoes" story depicts.
 
 
Papess
14:32 / 02.12.06
Emberleo:*tilts head* I don't believe the person who wrote this believed they were telling the truth. Many of the sentences are phrased "I'm this and that and oh yeah this other thing". That's a phrasing used for parody, generally.

I picked that up too. I do believe there is some truth to the stories of No-shoes and Jen, but I can't trust No-shoes, just because ze paints a "poor-me-i-was-dumb-but-thu-no-fault-of-my-own" picture. Geez, the Universe kicked my butt when I did that! I have totally been in the situation of No-shoes, but I had to really take responsibility for my end of it. No-shoes wants to believe in Jen's crap, just as much as Jen does. Whn it all comes crashing down, No-shoes acts as if ze took no part in it, when in fact they contributed to the delusion. I mean, just how many stinkin' clues does the Universe have to give you!? What was that definition of insanity, again? If one does something repeatedly and gets the same reults, yet continues to repeat that pattern...well, I am sure you see my point.
 
 
Ticker
15:53 / 02.12.06
'Trix, many Otherkin fey have based their perception of elves on Tolkien and other modern writers work and the same with the dragon lore and were lore. ( I swear on all that's holy if anyone ever argues with me about wereanimals based on LKH's work I will crack.)

In Jungian terms of anima and animus projection people are attracted to things that have qualities they wish to possess. Sometimes in the case of tangible external other people the projection of these qualities occurs. It complicates love at first sight when you really have no idea what the other person is like at all but your subconscious has just cast them as the perfect mate. Often this leads to a messy and painful disillusionment later on.
With magical/spiritual/religious relationships sometimes there isn't enough received input from the external source to shift these projections. For example someone who has a romantic notion about elves from fiction, myth, and video games may continue to have that ideal uninterrupted unless they get to go to Norway or Scotland and encounter a tangible unpleasant example. then they have to decided were their perceptions wrong in the first place or just need to be broader?

I feel this is often the case with people who haven't really encountered the object of their interest outside of their own imaginings or those of beloved writers. I feel it sometimes in the flippant casual way some folks discuss their Deities or other Enities they work with. Not that every relationship should follow the same pattern mind you but there's a quality of having adapted and learned in response to another personality that rings true when people who have discuss their experiences. There's some sort of smug self assured nuance in the voice of someone who is only playing house with their own imagination that is not there with people who have truly done give and take with another personality.

As for the comment Ember made about losing ones' self in the moment of LARP I've found my psyche shift profoundly into an aspect as a result of other people's ritual work. A few months ago I attended a ritual suspension of a spiritworker and an hour or so after they came down off the hooks I felt a profound need to guard them when the Ordeal Master overseeing the rite stepped away for a bit. The spiritworker was in no immediate danger but I felt a very intense urge to watch them for about an hour believing their energy was still too open. I mention the LARP aspect because the urge didn't come from my intuition as much as it came from persona I had adopted for the ritual. I had shifted in my psyche to such a degree during the powerful event and my role in it that it stuck. It took me a bit to recognise what was happening and to shift myself out of that headspace.


The issue of LARP/acting headspace, trancework, and other degrees of ritual headspace along with possession work fascinate me. I am distrustful of the LARP/ light trance headspace presenting the appearence of possession (even to the well meaning honest horse). I suspect I am distrustful of it because I am aware of my own ability to be consumed by a persona that is one of my own and not from an external source. It can be as you've experienced an intense strange event. I'm leery of the youthful nature of the practice in modern pagan groups which do not include tests to determine which level is being operated from.


In terms of how this impacts Otherkin and related folk I feel the need to restate that experinces of the mind do in fact have great impact even if they do not correlate to an external truth. For example surviors of reclaimed memories (example: satanic abuse) experience epic trauma even if those memories are latter proven to be unfounded in this shared reality. If you have an experience fabricated whole cloth in your imagination it can and does have an affect.

I know I'm all over the place with this post but I'd like to respond to 'Trix's comment about older Deities. As we have sadly lost so much lore from countless traditions modern practioners often have to source their own material from their imaginations and magical work. That said I do know of a few cases in which modern worshippers are using fictional based representations of Deities that are a drastic 180 degrees from the snippets of scholarly work not commonly available. What do you think happens in this case? Are the worshippers in contact with the Deity in question or have they just slapped the name onto a new face?
 
 
Papess
18:29 / 02.12.06
'Trix, many Otherkin fey have based their perception of elves on Tolkien and other modern writers work and the same with the dragon lore and were lore. ( I swear on all that's holy if anyone ever argues with me about wereanimals based on LKH's work I will crack.)

and

I feel this is often the case with people who haven't really encountered the object of their interest outside of their own imaginings or those of beloved writers.

Well, exactly. One has to ask oneself: Where did Tolkien get his ideas?

That said I do know of a few cases in which modern worshippers are using fictional based representations of Deities that are a drastic 180 degrees from the snippets of scholarly work not commonly available. What do you think happens in this case? Are the worshippers in contact with the Deity in question or have they just slapped the name onto a new face?

I don't know what happens, but I guess we shall find out. Can a Deity have more than one representation? You know, a 180 degree may be a bit much, but in the end, it is the archetype a deity embodies that matters, (not simply the appearances), xk. So, if the understanding of the principles the archetype embodies is there, I have less of an issue with how the deity presents itself to anyone. However, it is lovely to have a common perception with people, even scholars.
 
 
Papess
18:51 / 02.12.06
Which colour of Tara is the right one?
How many breasts does Diana really have?
Does Athena really have wings, or not?
Kali: Four arms, six arms, a thousand?

How do we explain this?
 
 
Ticker
20:07 / 02.12.06
Sorry I should be more clear... I'm thinking of how an ancient death and nourishment Goddess is now commonly viewed as a Faery love Goddess. It's a pet peeve.

The best I can do is to think the Faery Love modern interpretation is akin to thinking of Diane Rigg in her role as Mrs. Peel and not knowing that she's also a Shakespearen actress. There's a vast difference between being a Diane Rigg fan and a Mrs. Peel fan...or being a friend/family member of Diane Rigg.

On top of it I've also read straight up untruths about Gods that are fine in the context of fiction but are problematic in terms of canon.
 
 
EmberLeo
20:34 / 02.12.06
Quantum:I know examples of what you might call lycanthropic, fey, or draconic otherkin.

That was me, Electrix

Electrix: If one has attained the "status" of an avatar or is an emanation of a Deity

It never crossed my mind to correlate this idea with Otherkin. I have one friend who is just every so Oxun we often use her to explain Oxun to other people who ask. But you're right, she's constantly seeing the Oxun in others, and helping them bring it out, or become more comfortable with it.

xk: many Otherkin fey have based their perception of elves on Tolkien and other modern writers work and the same with the dragon lore and were lore.

Hmm. Personally, I would have less problem with Tolkien's interpretation of Elves than, say, McCaffrey's interpretation of dragons. Tolkien's work is much more heavily based on Northern European folklore than McCaffrey's.

I'm also less likely to twitch if somebody says "Well, it's kind of like this familiar example, only that's not quite right, and there's these other differences." than I would if they say "Oh, it's EXACTLY like that Vampire movie by Anne Rice - you know the one!"

How often have I had to use the nearest fictional paralell just to get in the ballpark of something I was trying to explain to somebody?

I am distrustful of the LARP/ light trance headspace presenting the appearence of possession (even to the well meaning honest horse).

Oh absoloutely. And then folks wonder why I have so little confidence in what I've done after they see it, because I'm aware of this very thing, and don't know for sure how to reliably tell.

I do know of a few cases in which modern worshippers are using fictional based representations of Deities that are a drastic 180 degrees from the snippets of scholarly work not commonly available. What do you think happens in this case? Are the worshippers in contact with the Deity in question or have they just slapped the name onto a new face?

That's something to take case-by-case I'm sure. Maybe the fictional account was prompted to expand that deity's repretoire, and honestly presents a new face They'd like to start speaking through to reach people They might not otherwise reach. Is the God of the new testament the same God as that from the old testament, despite a drastic and thoroughly commented-on change of character?

(I'm not saying the NT is fiction, per se, but it was new when it was written, eh?).

Electrix: in the end, it is the archetype a deity embodies that matters

I'm not sure how you meant this, but a hard polytheist would disagree. The gods are not just their archetypes. Heck, many gods have faces from more than one archetype.

xk: I'm thinking of how an ancient death and nourishment Goddess is now commonly viewed as a Faery love Goddess.

Okay, you got me - who is this?

--Ember--
 
 
Papess
23:04 / 02.12.06
Electrix: in the end, it is the archetype a deity embodies that matters
EmberLeo: I'm not sure how you meant this, but a hard polytheist would disagree. The gods are not just their archetypes. Heck, many gods have faces from more than one archetype.


Yes, I realise that it is a poor argument for some taste - perhaps, "archetype" was the wrong word. To clarify: A lot of deities do have several different forms, but there is no argument that, the essence of those forms are of one deity.

Electrix: If one has attained the "status" of an avatar or is an emanation of a Deity
EmberLeo: It never crossed my mind to correlate this idea with Otherkin. I have one friend who is just every so Oxun we often use her to explain Oxun to other people who ask. But you're right, she's constantly seeing the Oxun in others...


That is more how I understand the nature and behavior of an avatar to be. I think, one simple way to gauge one's authenticity of avatarhood is to ask oneself, "Is this the way that entity would behave". I am thinking of people making vehement claims of being an avatar - is it really necessary for this being, whether fic or not, to tell everyone who they are? Is it necessary for EmberLeo to constantly tell us that ze is EmberLeo, or MC to tell us constanly that she MC? Of course not, (for examples, I hope no one is offended). Why would an enitity feel the need to do that? I just don't they think would if they really were. It doesn't make sense.

PS: Sorry about the name mix up earlier, EmberLeo and Quantum.
 
 
Triplets
14:06 / 03.12.06
I used to be a gas-powered cooker in a earlier life.









I'm an ovenkin.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:09 / 03.12.06
Fan assisted?

"Which colour of Tara is the right one?
How many breasts does Diana really have?
Does Athena really have wings, or not?
Kali: Four arms, six arms, a thousand?

How do we explain this?"


I would say we explain this because it all takes place within a relgious community over a period of time, the cultural parameters are similar for the history of those deities within religous structures, even when through trade and war they make there way into a variety of differing cultures.

The stark difference between the value of these religous adaptations and that of otherkin and fictional spirituality is that religions present from the point of view of reality, to a religous structure its mythic characters are very real and are experienced as very real through religous experience,ritual, cultural history, tradition and community.

Fictional spirituality/otherkin comes from the realms of what is largely considered within the present cultural context as fiction.

The present cultural context may seek to ascribe fictional status to greek gods or roman, hindu and christian, but, and its a big but, they have exsisted and operated historically out of the context of cultural fiction before the common era where many mythological characters were ascribed to the context of imagination. ( tho many were included in stories of the eras, they were understood also as literal forces and powers). This is not the case of many modern fictional representations, that many people should seek to turn these characters into spiritual figures, speaks to me of the need for religous feeling and culture within modern communities and the lack that some feel modern culture presents. I can see some of this in UFO phenomena and the religiosity of some of its devotees as well.

Mass produced fiction in comics, anime, rpgs etc acts as a kind of substitute for religous communal structure, this is being adapted by those that find themselves within a mythic space and recontextualised into a sense of religous community.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
15:35 / 03.12.06
Mass produced fiction in comics, anime, rpgs etc acts as a kind of substitute for religous communal structure, this is being adapted by those that find themselves within a mythic space and recontextualised into a sense of religous community.

Sorry, but I don't agree that (eg) an anime fandom, even taken to the extreme of believing that fandom to be literally real and identifying oneself as the incarnation of a particular character etc., is in any way equivalent to being part of a religious community. I don't believe this kind of thing even has the possibility to become something that fills the same needs as a religion.

I also reject the idea that modern culture is utterly and completely grounded in the rational, bereft of the mystical and the religious to the point where people have no other recourse except escapism into pop-culture fiction, largely because modern culture so clearly is not grounded in the rational. I don't care what it says in the introduction to your Mage: The Ascension rulebook, we do not live in some cold-eyed, dead-hearted age of mechanical rationality.

When did middle-class teenagers and 20-somethings suddenly stop having access to religion, spirituality, imagination? Back in my day, middle-class kids got issued with some kind of slightly 'exotic' spirituality as soon as they started GCSEs. You got your pentagram or your yin-yang or whatever pendant along with your first pair of DMs and your bottle of Spiritual Sky patchouli oil. People fall over themselves to help you Find Yourself(TM) with yoga, reiki, crystals, meditation... sure, it's all pretty shallow stuff but the possibility of delving deeper is always open.

If you have the time and resources to muck around building a 20-page website dedicated to your eight-tailed triple-breasted elf-cat-rainbow-dragon, then you have the resources to look into other spiritual paths. I don't see how pretending to be Sailor bloody Moon's pet marmot is ever going to be necessary to anyone's psychic survival.
 
 
Char Aina
16:34 / 03.12.06
when did middle-class teenagers and 20-somethings suddenly stop having access to religion, spirituality, imagination?

as an occasional procrastinator i can well imagine having access and not using it. i'm not saying these dudes are necessarily procrastinating, but i can see how a lack of avilability might not be the only factor in their .

shit, i could be writing my novel right now.
i have all the 'access' to writing implements(and examples, advice, technical tips, etc.)i need, but i havent done shit all about it.

there are sometimes other things i have access to that i ignore or put off, things that could well satisfy or imrove me in ways i'd appreciate.
every time i watch a movie instead of reading one of my pile of books on code or whatever i have access to those books.
i just enjoy watching movies.


maybe these kids just don't feel a need to do anything with all this access and potential.
maybe they find some knowledge to be of as little use to them as i find the bible to be for me.

i'd rather worship thor than yhwh(although i should say i dont do either and doubt i will antytime soon), and i suspect my reasons for that are similar to the otakin's for choosing, i dont know, say alucard over kali.
one seems cool to me, my kind of thing.
the other seems musty and irrelevant to the way i travel life, and therefore i'd eschew whatever use i might find in hir teachings.


I don't believe this kind of thing even has the possibility to become something that fills the same needs as a religion.

do you mind teling us why not?
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:42 / 03.12.06
I am saying that fandom is a maladaptive form of natural religous instinct, just as fictional spirtuality and otherkin are, rather than having any basis in a sense of physical spirituality as experienced via a historical religous communinity or mythology, people are being pushed to fit there sense of spirituality into mass consumer based fiction, so as to provide a distraction from what would once of been a spiritual experience with escapism, ala rpgs like mage etc.

Since stopping rpgs 6-8 years ago, my sense of spirituality has flourished, removing other fictional distractions as well has allowed my practice to improve, the cusp of secular entertainment forms removed and slowly deconditioned the instinctual spiritual nature opens.

Its not that this becomes religion, but becomes an expression of a maladaptive need for spiritual engagement.

The mass produced consumer fictions, especially fantasy and sci fi, are there to explicitly replace the need to engage with a spiritual awareness, imo and distort the natural spiritual instinct.

Modern society engages many imaginative mythic dramas for people to engage with, but misses the essential component from the interaction, spirit.
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:18 / 03.12.06
It seems to me that people are crying out for something real, a real spirit in all this modern fiction, lying governments, advertising, fantasy sci fi, something more real than a t.v show or a youth culture.

As you get older and begin the process of stripping down to whats real in yourself, i started to see exactly what these things were substitutes for, real community, stories that mean something, symbols that offer eternal value, a real dreaming, the human drama of being alive.

I can see how others might intuit what lay beyond those structures and be in a confused process, merged between a cry for something real and the comfortable illusions that are provided, i was there for a time. I think to some it will remain an escape, but others will live that great escape so hard, that the escape will collapse before them revealing something entirely more real.

The maladaptive process is symptomatic of a culture that has tried to buck its spiritual context, as is a return to familiar christian values that were not placed so far away in time.

People try to make the fictions real, so that something as comforting as the fictions they are told become more real to them, they need to make something real, when all sense of reality has become relative.
 
  

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