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20:34 / 03.12.06

Since stopping rpgs 6-8 years ago, my sense of spirituality has flourished, removing other fictional distractions as well has allowed my practice to improve

I’m glad for you, but I’m not sure everyone could agree that fictional distractions necessarily neither impede or are incompatible with spiritual, and for that matter personal growth, or distort anyone’s natural spiritual instinct - should they believe that they possess such a thing in the first place.

I think it would be more correct to say that there could be a maladaptive need in such cases as that of the Otherkin for personal and social engagement outside the structural limitations of that subculture, specifically one where their fanaticism as regards certain products of pop-culture leads them into a belief that impairs their ability to balance and reflect upon their access to wider society and its cultural produce, as well as more historically grounded spiritual paths.

Could you explain why you think that certain forms of entertainment or genres of literature intrinsically possess lower levels of reality and are more harmful to participatory communities than their less secular alternatives? And to what purpose?

22:06 / 03.12.06

Yah Naa Aah Paw, it seems like you have another issue that's intersecting but not running parallel to the discussion on Otherkin. Perhaps it would be best if you started a new thread?

Unconditional Love

22:30 / 03.12.06

I certainly dont wish to imply that certain realities are of a lower level to begin with, especially entertainment culture, but when did religion or spirituality become entertainment?

It may possess in certain guises manifestations of the arts, that are used in the purpose of entertainment, but in a spiritual/religous context those arts serve a more focused process than entertainment alone.

The sacralisation of the entertainment industry is another example of a culture that severely lacks a wider spiritual context. Desperate to turn actors, musicians etc into demi gods.

Its not that secular forms of entertainment are harmful, but i believe approaching them as spiritual/religious is to further condition the notion of the entertainment industry as a sacred institution, that the economic function of that industry is also being sacralised, as are the political and social agendas of the corporations that produce said media products.

ONLY NICE THINGS

23:44 / 03.12.06

but when did religion or spirituality become entertainment?

Late sixth century BC, in Athens, I think...

08:35 / 04.12.06

Yah Naa Aah Paw: I am saying that fandom is a maladaptive form of natural religous instinct

I'm pretty sure I follow you, and I kind of agree. It being born of the instinct isn't the same thing as it fulfilling the need.

I crave processed sugars out of an instinct to eat, and an instinct to consume things that change my Seratonin levels. Processed sugars, however, don't really fulfill either my nutritional or my hormonal needs to any adequate degree. That doesn't change the fact that I habitually persue them because of those needs.

I dissagree with this, however:

The mass produced consumer fictions, especially fantasy and sci fi, are there to explicitly replace the need to engage with a spiritual awareness, imo and distort the natural spiritual instinct.

I don't believe either is produced specifically with intent to replace spirituality.

but when did religion or spirituality become entertainment?
Late sixth century BC, in Athens, I think...

Indeed. And now we are seeing the reverse - old religious forms that have long since shifted to mere entertainment are nevertheless being engaged as though they were still (or are again) religious forms.

--Ember--

08:41 / 04.12.06

I think part of the problem with this whole subject is that there are drastically different answers if you look at it Anthropologically, Psychologically, or Spiritually.

Anthropologically, there's a lot of the same stuff going on pattern-wise, with the forms supporting or being supported by new content. Fanfic paralells nicely to the fashion of Greek Dramas. Our engagement with the entertainment industry connects nicely with the ritual orgins of Theatre. RPGs seem to connect with Posessory practices, both in terms of the release they represent from societal boundaries, and in terms of the shift in conciousness experienced by the deeply involved. Fiction replaces Lore. Did Fiction as a concept even exist before? I particularly liked the observation somewhat made elsethread that Rap culture looks a lot like Bardic culture of old.

The patterns are there for a reason, and they will surface regardless. They illustrate the nature of humanity.

It's on a secular and traditional definition of "normal" that we call some of this "maladaptive", and it's on a spiritual standard of whatever we have that they're considered "less".

And yet, by my own experience, I agree that much of the valuable deeply symbolic content that used to fill these patterns has been replaced with semi-random "junk", because we have retained the instincts, but society has "evolved" out of the supporting traditions.

--Ember--

Unconditional Love

12:55 / 04.12.06

Haus was that as purely entertainment?

13:18 / 04.12.06

I crave processed sugars out of an instinct to eat, and an instinct to consume things that change my Seratonin levels. Processed sugars, however, don't really fulfill either my nutritional or my hormonal needs to any adequate degree. That doesn't change the fact that I habitually persue them because of those needs.

I love this analogy. The quick fix of processed sugar/processed current fic-culture, compared to the more substantial and nutritious whole foods/well-rounded enitities, which need time for preparation and digestion and have a more positive long term effect. (Whole foods also contain some sugars, but need to be processed out). The levels this analogy touches is just delightful. Thanks, Ember!

13:28 / 04.12.06

I can sort of see that people casting about for spiritual meaning and fulfilling practice and appropriating games and pop culture as a framework, but I don't think society has "evolved" out of the supporting traditions. I'd agree if churches mosques and temples weren't still around, but they are- there are also thriving storytelling traditions and numerous pagan organisations, am-dram groups and carnival societies, foklore groups and re-enactors etc. etc. There are plenty of supporting traditions but they aren't as uncritical as the otherkin community seems to be and generally contain less...maladapted elements.

I feel that otherkin, generally, are more likely to be reaching for convenient pick-and-mix make-your-own-Frankenstein belief systems rather than anything with rigour, because they aren't challenging and are easy to grasp, because they're very simple. The attraction of a FF7 paradigm over (say) Siberian shamanic practice is that it's easy, has no priests, you make it up as you go along and you get to be Cloud. Like 2-headed rude boy mentioned about the comfort zone, it's playing games not doing magic or following religion. The church of Cloud is not in the same league as any actual religion IMHO, and only fulfills the same needs in the way a toy hammer fills the needs of a hammer.

To be clearer- otherkin (esp. otakukin) are playing at a game that looks like magic or religion but isn't, in the same way the pony game isn't equivalent to Christianity, or kiss-chase isn't the same as a grown up sexual relationship. It's like trying to build a church out of Lego. You *could* do it but it's easy to buy real bricks...

13:31 / 04.12.06

Yeah, Ember's candy metaphor works quite well- eating twinkies instead of learning to cook. It's not healthy.

13:38 / 04.12.06

i would guess not, but then are people involved in the otherkin community only there for entertainment?
from what i read many seem to find it more than a mere pastime or hobby.

13:40 / 04.12.06

sorry, that was to yahnaaaahpaw.

13:44 / 04.12.06

more than a mere pastime or hobby

An obsession even. Like the LARPers who spend hundreds of hours writing up the background of their character and when actually playing mostly stand around looking mysterious and angst-ridden. They fall in the taking-it-too-seriously camp along with many fantards* and trainspotters.

*apologies, but what a great word!

*

15:30 / 04.12.06

I'm actually not a big fan of it, Quants, but have fun.

15:38 / 04.12.06

[threadrot]
Quantum, you bass-tard!

(I am joking. I apologize, I just couldn't resist! that, Quantum)
[/tr]

Unconditional Love

15:55 / 04.12.06

totsik i really need a break from forums for a while, i am having too many boorish moments in general, not just online, i think it has everything to do with christmas, get back to you in a while.

16:08 / 04.12.06

no drama, dude. come back when you feel more into it.
if you do feel like attacking something (but not everyting) in the next few and are looking to prioritise, i'd be into reading your input in the atheism thread over this one.
just so you know.

as i say, though, whenever you can.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

16:20 / 04.12.06

To be clearer- otherkin (esp. otakukin) are playing at a game that looks like magic or religion but isn't, in the same way the pony game isn't equivalent to Christianity, or kiss-chase isn't the same as a grown up sexual relationship.

And the fact that there's a lot more to, say, Christianity, than pretending to be Jesus.

16:37 / 04.12.06

they're quite different things, hey.
i think the whole past lives thing is a thing in itself outside of religion, a something i have to admit i find quite risible.

i realise that isnt a very enlightened attitude, but i can't seem to understand it as anything more than a less than necessary escape from the current day's issues.
i feel the same about my own occasional blaming of the past for today's troubles; it can feel nice and it absolves me of some responsibility while i'm at it, but ultimately it's far less use than looking forwards or getting to grips with the here and now.

quite how that helps the discussion i'm not sure.

16:53 / 04.12.06

I think it helps, toksik. I understand what you are saying as, if your spiritualism exempts you from responsiblity for at least, your own self, then maybe it is an immature "spiritual" path to tread.

I don't understand why there is near, and in some cases flat out rejection of human-ness. Isn't it our humanity what allows us to conceptualize in this way? I rather like my human-ness.

19:17 / 04.12.06

It's arguable that it's sentience, not human-ness that allows us to conceptualize this way, and thus being some other form of sentient leaves us all the good, and none of the nasty we're-killing-eachother-and-mother-earth-and-society-sucks aspects. I admit, there are many, many days I wish I wasn't obliged to be included in those aspects, to the point of severe depression - it's just when I dig into escapeism, I don't even want to recognise I'm still in this world, so it would defeat my purpose to go about being Not Human yet still Stuck Here.

Re: Reincarnation as a scape-goat. Well, I suppose that's one use, but it certainly isn't the only thing. For me, Reincarnation, which I was raised to believe, is a reminder that I'm here to learn and prepare for greater lessons in my next life. It's a reminder that things like giving up or committing suicide (with certain exceptions) are not productive, 'cause it doesn't get me off the wheel, and my next life will only be more challenging. It's also a source of deep spiritual connections with some people in my life who I believe (and they almost always agree) are known to me from before. Using it to avoid responsibility isn't really on the list. If anything it adds responsibilities.

--Ember--

03:10 / 05.12.06

An obsession even. Like the LARPers who spend hundreds of hours writing up the background of their character and when actually playing mostly stand around looking mysterious and angst-ridden.

and

Since stopping rpgs 6-8 years ago, my sense of spirituality has flourished, removing other fictional distractions as well has allowed my practice to improve.

This is what leads me to believe that much of this Otherkin phenomena is just creative energy taking the path of least resistance; perhaps many are just creative people who are drawn to myth and like to think in mythic terms, but haven't yet worked up the nerve artistically to stretch out of the comfort zone of other people's parameters.

In terms of dysfunction and maladaption, people who crave drama but aren't able to find a healthy way to channel it will often make their personal lives into a drama as compensation. I would guess this is mostly a subconsious thing.

When I gave up trying to live out mythic archetypes and channeled it instead into fiction, my creativity flourished, and interestingly enough so did my spirituality and ability to connect with many of those archetypes I'd been chasing for so long.

Perhaps it sounds like I'm just saying it's mundane thing, but creativity is pretty primal stuff--that's a lot of wattage going into these Otherkin personas, which is why I wouldn't discount some magical aspect to the whole process.

04:43 / 05.12.06

Sorry Quantum, I didn't catch this quite the same way beforeL I'd agree if churches mosques and temples weren't still around, but they are

I don't just mean the availability of spiritual support, but the specific forms of ritual that have since become secular entertainment are no longer pervasive throughout modern Western culture in a religious context. Even the Christian quarters that have them to a significant degree (I'm thinking of Baptist Revivals) are not considered totally mainstream.

- there are also thriving storytelling traditions and numerous pagan organisations, am-dram groups and carnival societies, foklore groups and re-enactors etc. etc.

But most of these are either minorities or reconstructions or both. I do think the "Age of Reason" and industrialization have created a shift away from church-dominance of the binding mainstream culture. For the most part I tend to think that's a good thing, because I'm an individualist at heart. But there's a degree to which any given religion is a minority, at least here in the US, just because there isn't one single monolithic religion holding it all together. "Christian" isn't specific enough because the forms and practices are wildly variable across denominations. As such, the majority culture doesn't have this as part of an unbroken tradition. I don't mean it's unavailable, only that it's no longer pervasive in the mainstream as it perhaps once was in, say, Ancient Rome.

Otherkin phenomena is just creative energy taking the path of least resistance;

Oh, I think that's a very succinct way to put it, yes. Nice. Available != Handy.

--Ember--

15:25 / 05.12.06

Arrgh! So, I am looking for information on a Criosphinx, and more than half the links are in reference to YuGi Oh!, or some RPG. I feel a little ripped off.

In reference to oatukin: Isn't there a prophecy about people's (man's) dreams and/or nightmares becoming reality, somewhere?

20:39 / 05.12.06

That's vague enough it wouldn't surprise me in the least ;]

--Ember--

13:42 / 06.12.06

Yes, that is vague, EmberLeo. Sorry 'bout that! I think the prophecy is in the Book of Revelation. Anyway, people might not think it is terribly relevant to the oatukin state of mind, but I thought it was related - the idea of taking one's projections waayyy too seriously, to the point of delusion or psychosis.

However, interpretations of the Book of Revelation is another matter.

13:51 / 06.12.06

are we talking tulpas here? 'Cause it takes a rather lot of energy and skill to manifest a thought form. Though I suspect a certain level of obsession will cut through the skilled parts.

14:30 / 06.12.06

Though I suspect a certain level of obsession will cut through the skilled parts.

At least, for that obsessed individual.

Tulpas, or egregores, from what I understand, are theorized to be materialized out of thought - thought fertilized by sheer willpower. Can this be done consciously and subconsciously? Perhaps, unconsciously?

This phenomenon reminds me of the myth of the Birth of Athena, if you follow me. I am rather clumsy with the breakdown analysis, but in a sense, (and with no disrespect the the Goddess Athena), She is in a way, a Tulpa. Also, Zeus assumed kinship to His Creation.

Interesting, no?

Glenn Close But No Cigar

17:34 / 06.12.06

What's oddly lacking from most (all?) otherkin etc. websites is a list of famous therianthropes. C'mon, surely the whole enterprise would be more convincing / entertaining (delete as you like) if we saw something like the following:

Michael Moore has the soul of a Vampyre

Roger Moore has the soul of a Dark Elf.

Sir Thomas Moore had the soul of Halfling / Dragon

Patrick Moore has the soul of Yu-Gi-Oh! hottie Anzu Mazaki

Alan Moore has the soul of a Great Elk / the Milky Bar Kid.

Henry Moore has the soul of a Fae

Thurston Moore has the soul of a tall badger

Demi Moore has the soul of Mageneto (Age of Apocalypse continuity only)

19:35 / 06.12.06

Zahir, let's stick to the topic at hand, shall we?

Glenn Close But No Cigar

17:19 / 07.12.06

Oooh, let's!

Behind my not-so-serious speculations on Roger Moore's soul was a serious point, that point being that were the existence of otherkin a 'reality', surely some notable contemporary and historical figures would be / have been otherkin.

Also, it surprises me that folk who create / post on otherkin sites haven't claimed any notable, well, kin. Claiming (or even outing) such figures is a well-worn strategy for any oppressed or just 'other' group to inculcate self-respect, and the respect of those outside that group.

I'm not sure what this ommission tells us about the various net-based otherkin communities. Maybe they carefully avoid identifying other otherkin for ethical reasons, maybe they are unable to (although the otherkin version of a 'gaydar', expounded on numerous otherkin sites, suggests this is not so), or maybe they have no real interest in building an otherkin history, with all the cultural weight and seriousness that that entails, but are rather talk shops for those who have made a category mistake about the source of their disquiet. There are of course many other possible reasons.

Quite frankly, though, if I were seeking to further the 'kin cause, I'd out, say, Bismark or Sitting Bull or Borges as 'kin, if only to provide a counterweight to Molatar.

17:30 / 07.12.06

I appreciate you expanding on that. Sincerely.

05:16 / 08.12.06

Perhaps the idea that such mundane persons as Hollywood superstars and political figures could be Otherkin is directly counter to the concept of Otherkin?

What comes to my mind is the reaction some artists have to other artists "selling out". The reaction fine artists or political artists have to the same skills being applied to marketing, for example. It seems less creative and sparkly and more banal to be a person who focuses on making money or policy. Anybody who has earned that much fame and fortune in the mundane world is thoroughly steeped in here-ness. To have gotten that far in this world, they must fit in to the system on a level Otherkin, by their very nature, can't. Fame may well be proof of a lack of Otherness.

*Shrugs*

--Ember--

Less searchable M0rd4nt

00:47 / 09.12.06

I don't think this is a very sensible concept though, is it? I mean, it's not like outing someone as gay, for example. If you are outing someone as gay you're dealing with an observable phenomenon: having sex with someone of one's own gender. There's evidence or at least the possibility of evidence being produced. If, on the other hand, I want to shore up my rainbow-winged-unicorn-cat-fennec identity by outing Gwen Stephani, Nicola Tesla and the guy from the Halifax adverts as closeted fellow rainbow-winged-unicorn-cat-fennecs, I can comment at length on how much fennecitude Gwen Stephani exudes and create photoshops of Tesla with a horn and wings on, but I can't demonstrate their non-human souls in any way.

I'm certain that if you perused Otherkin mailing lists you would indeed see excited comment on how Cate Blanchett must have an OMG Elven soul!1!! but I don't really see it makes a lot of difference to anything. You're still dealing with an entirely subjective kettle of notional fish.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

01:45 / 09.12.06

PS: Quants, dude--not having a go but you might want to think about the baggage that comes with the -tard suffix. Just saying.

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