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Unconditional Love
15:43 / 29.01.08
For an idea of how vampire like creatures are reflected in various mythologys see the following Hungry ghost

Any magical practice involving these kind of entity's is going to be very dangerous and potentially lethal or just not very fruitful, self identification with this kind of hunger seems to suggest obsessive and addictive personality traits.

The idea of the humanised friendly vampire is very much at the heart of this dilemma, the anti hero as humane parasite filled with an obsessive passion for the object of desire.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:59 / 29.01.08
Okay. Now, Raven Kaldera is someone for whom I have the greatest respect, and any such book he's written will have been put together with the improved functionality and wellbeing of the practitioner in mind. However, since I haven't read the book and haven't read any other work that he might have written on that particular topic, I can't comment on the content and don't know where the ideas presented in the book will have been derived from. I would tend to approach any such text with the greatest caution and a very critical, skeptical mindset.

There are lots of ways in which an occultist can lapse into dysfunctionality and delusion. The vampire thing seems to be one of the more well-trodden routes into the mire (though we should bear in mind that it's not the only such path).
 
 
Unconditional Love
18:06 / 29.01.08
Another figure where comparisons often get made to vampirism is Kali, i can see the nature of the logic here but it is deeply flawed, at least in my understandings. Kali feeding on demon blood or just the blood of sacrifice and the amalgamation of the ritual murder of the thugee usually get lumped together to hint at Kali's vampiric nature.

The understanding i have is that the blood that Kali feeds on is the desires that hinder a seeker on the path to nirvana, represented in the form of demons and there life essence, not the act of obsessing over a hunger or passion, but the very opposite removing such obstacles from the seekers path. So the seekers awareness becomes as corpse like as shiva beneath her feet.

Thou something i have yet to understand the purpose of is this bija mantra - Plrem- , thou i may have just understood it by searching another term that of vetala thou i do not know the context it appears in in the Bhutadamara (within buddhism at least a figure whom removes obstacles or subdues demons) It may well be a bija to repel or remove vetala who knows.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:00 / 29.01.08
Yeah, comparisoms beteeen "dark" Gods and teh darque vampyres are something that always gets under my skin. So cheap, so simplistic, so limiting, and barely ever used (in their raw, unqualified form anyhow) by anyone with half a clue what said God is like.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:10 / 29.01.08
This blending of pop culture with traditional magical practices may well be the problem with pop culture magick and other manifestations, thou much of pop culture from fantasy/horror/sci fi makes reference to magic and spiritual practices.

The context of magic and spirtuality are so radically different to the presentation of experience of magic and spirit in pop culture. Its this experiential component that is missing from otherkin and there ilk etc. Rather than the magic being engaged with from a traditional basis it is being thought of in the same context as within the programmes etc that are being used as inspiration, that may conveniently be a working formula, but often is not. It seems to be play acting at magic.

For example this weekend i had a vision in which a women clothed in silver turned up inside of me started barking orders at various unwelcome parties inside of me, drew a sword and scared the crap out of my 'enemies'. Then she gave me her name, which i later discovered is greek and means protector/defender. This was a real experience, my head and body had felt like shit up until that point, she cleared me out entirely at the time, also relaying advice for me after.

I later tryed to find correspondence and came across the queen of swords, thoth deck, suddenly the commentary on the card clicked it all into place especially the symbolism of the childs face and the old mans severed head. It fit more readily into a structured personal magical narrative.

At that point i started to think about the multi narratives that run through Thelema, and their are alot, Crowley seemed to be able to combine fiction and traditional structures in such a way that they still retained a functional approach to semi fictitious structure as usable practice or inspiration. So what was the difference between this and modern pop magic? It was grounded in Magic and not in pop culture, pop culture was a part of the inspiration for Thelema but not the totality, the underlying structures were bound into far older traditions and systems that had an internal consistency, pop culture is an extension of that expression rather than the only expression, the same could be said of ATR's that employ some pop culture as representation.

Thats just it, pop culture is representation and NOT the essential substance of magical practice. Art and magic do bear a relationship, but art as magic as an end in itself, misses the core of what magic is and can do. In a culture that is so image obsessed this distinction can be difficult to see, self image begins to out weigh what a person is or means, so image becomes slowly but surely the meaning and the substance and meaning is lost to a magical self image.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:24 / 29.01.08
I think it's also worth bearing in mind that unlike a lot of modern proponants of pop culture majik!1!!, at least the ones I meet on the net, Crowley didn't spit out his dummy and cry at the suggestion he try his ideas out in practice and evaluate the results rather than sit around spewing kewl-sounding but totally untested theories like a can of textual Silly String.
 
 
Unconditional Love
02:26 / 30.01.08
Perhaps thou i am being a little too harsh on the proponents of pop magic, not having those that practice it as a continual system to go on, perhaps i should not judge and accuse without first knowing there full experience and what other angles they could present aside from my own, dont want to blow my own trumpet as if everything i say is to be taken as the rule.

I really do wonder thou as the thread summary asks how does it work? A bit difficult to do without allowing an otherkin to express themselves in a non critical environment and then slowly beginning to question the assumptions that they present as magic, if they are presented as such or purport to be so.

And also questioning my own assumptions about what i think magic to be, as examined personal experience seems to be what there is to go on without objective measurements. Otherwise magical examination can end up as a personal pissing contest to see whom has the better sounding explanation to there reader(s). That just get's tedious after a time, and does not help anybody involved what so ever.

I am guessing that Barbelith is a little too scary for most otherkin, thou i could be very wrong.
 
 
Z. deScathach
03:42 / 30.01.08
I'm somewhat loathe to be critical about any spiritual belief, so what I'm about to say comes somewhat uncomfortably. I actually know someone who is a dragon. He perfectly fits the stereotype of the article, (well, with the exception that I do not know his sexual preference), but to me, that is beside the point. The one thing that disturbs me the most about this, and what was alluded to earlier, is the almost narcissistic self focus that seems to be occuring. It's as if one has made an alternate image of oneself, and then loves it obsessively. That would be OK, if it weren't for the fact that narcissism is a massive diversion from relating socially, and well, helping to make a better world. The dragons say that they are here to "aid humanity", and yet, I see none of the selflessness that such an attitude would entail. I guess I'm not really talking about martyrdom here, as much as simply being concerned about the world and the people and animals in it.

In contrast, I have known people who work with animal spirits, and have found them to often be enhanced by their work. The animal spirits seem to enrich them and actually extend their capacities. Some of these persons have even become physically like their totems in an almost uncanny way. What I see going on with the dragons seems to be a very different phenomenon. It's almost as if their alter image is their own worst enemy, obessively drawing their attention from their own lives.

One thing taht I've always asked about magick is, "Just what the hell is it good for? Why are we doing this?" I've always hoped that it is possible to change cause and effect relationship with focussed, trained consciousness, because perhaps, just perhaps, it can get around the huge power structures that seem to have sewed up the game so well.....

I should note, however, that I've always been opposed to the "show me the money" model of magick, probably due to the fact that most of the magick I've studied have been within oriental paradigms, where there are many legends concerning powerful magicians or immortals in the guise of beggars. Still, the one constant that I've seen in magicians who were poor yet effective was, in a word, power. They may live on the street, and yet street predators who would jump on anyone else part when they come through, they always get whatever they need whenever they want it, they survive on a razors edge without ever losing their balance, and they like it that way. What I see in the case of the dragons is quite different than that. Their functionality exists in their own minds, and it seems to be killing them.....

I have to admit that the judgementality of this post makes me wince, and yet, there it is...... There were times when I was anything but an example of functionality, hell, thirty years ago, I was a junkie. Still, magick has been very good to me. It enabled me to quit heroin, cigarettes, alcohol. It enabled me to reverse a crippling anxiety disorder. It constantly causes delightful surprises. It also has tested me almost to the breaking point at times. The one thing that magick has always done is taken my faults and flung them in my face like a monkey flinging shit. What I see in this community is not a facing of faults, but a diversion from them, and I'm not sure that such a diversion really helps anything.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:38 / 30.01.08
I understand being loath to have a go at a person's spiritual beliefs, but it seems to me that it's not the beliefs themselves that are under scrutiny here. It's not like you're saying "haha, ze thinks ze's a dragon, what a maroon." If people believe themselves to have the souls of Dragons etc, for whatever reason and for whatever values of "Dragon," "soul" and "have" are most meaningful to them, and these beliefs do no harm to them or to others, I don't think anyone could reasonably have a problem. It's the manifest dysfunction, maladaptivity, and apparent misery (as manifeted in the high suicide rate) that are raising red flags.

I should note, however, that I've always been opposed to the "show me the money" model of magick

Yeah, I think that's a good point to bear in mind. Having wads of cash isn't evidence of functionality, and someone doesn't need to have a well-paid job and a flashy lifestyle to be an amazing magician. If an individual has embraced an unhomed lifestyle, radical poverty, etc., as a personal choice because that life is more meaningful and appropriate to hir then I support and affirm that choice.

However, unemployment, underemployment, and the taking of jobs below one's skills level can be indicative of a problem somewhere. I'm upfront about the fact that I've had trouble in this regard myself--periods where I was out of work, a lot more periods where I was grubbing around at less than minimum wage for months at a time, temporary and otherwise insecure jobs etc. Whilst it might be comforting for me to create a narrative where all that was a choice--low-paid jobs = a rejection of the gross materialism of the mundane, living on benefits = darque magus predating the PC sheeple, etc etc chiz moan drone--the fact is that I wasn't firing on all four cylinders at the time, magically or otherwise. I hated every minute of it and would have given my eye teeth for a steady job.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:58 / 30.01.08
I really do wonder thou as the thread summary asks how does it work? A bit difficult to do without allowing an otherkin to express themselves in a non critical environment

Otherkin have plenty of uncritical environments in which to express themselves, dude. I don't think I've ever come across a 'Kin-centric or 'Kin-friendly community that wasn't totally uncritical and devoid of anything resembling skepticism.

As to how it works: The mechanism as it is generally expressed by people in said communities is as follows. Re-incarnation is real, elves dragons etc are also real, I was an elf in a past life. It's pretty simple.

I don't recall seeing the Otherkinness presented as a form of magic, no. It's more of a spiritual belief. I think we dealt with that a couple of pages back.

I am guessing that Barbelith is a little too scary for most otherkin, thou i could be very wrong.

If one is a relatively functional individual who is prepared to interrogate one's stated beliefs in an atmosphere of healthy skepticism, then one has nothing to be afraid of. If, on the other hand, one is accustomed to an environs where one can say "I had to quit my job because hyoomon office chairs hurt my widdle astral taily-po/I cheat on my SO because my phenotype has a high sex drive/I can't stand my kids because they are hyoomon like my ex and not my phenotype" without fear of anyone asking you to interrogate those beliefs and the actions arising from them, then yes Barbelith will be scary. Scary scary GRR. Personally I don't see this as a bad thing.
 
 
rosie x
11:45 / 30.01.08
I saw this in Time Out this morning and thought it might be interesting...this is taken from the BBC website:

Wonderland: Virtual Adultery and Cyberspace Love

Wed 30 Jan, 9:50 pm - 10:30 pm 40mins BBC2

Carolyn is a 37 year-old mother of four in the midst of a passionate affair that is tearing her family apart. She's spending up to 18 hours a day with her lover, and her husband is in despair. But the extraordinary thing about this affair is that Carolyn's lover is man she has never met. Because he's not a human being. He's an avatar (or computer generated figure), who exists only in the virtual world of Second Life. And their relationship exists only in cyberspace.

The population of the virtual world Second Life has grown to over three million in the three years since it was created. It's a world in which you can buy the things you could never afford in real life, and have the body and looks of a movie star for just a few dollars. But as relationships develop in this strange animated world, the risk is that they start to become more real than those in your first life.

In the face of fierce opposition from her husband of nine years, Carolyn flies 5000 miles to London to meet Elliot, the creator of the avatar with whom she has fallen in love, in order to see if a relationship formed in cyberspace can work in the real world. And she leaves behind her a family left rubbing their eyes in bewilderment and anguish.

This is a film about those who've become so disillusioned with their real life that they've sidelined it in favour of a virtual life. It's about people who've cheated on their life partners and risked losing everything, for the promise of a life that's so far only been experienced in the pixels of a computer screen and the dream world of their own fantasies. Deals with adult themes.

A little off topic, but somewhat keeping with the general theme of folks who prefer imagined realities over physical ones. This sort or stuff really disturbs me beyond belief. It seems to stand in diametric opposition to practices such as tantra and witchcraft, in which the physical body represents the penultimate expression of reality: with there being no separation between the worlds of flesh and spirit.

When a person is disillusioned with their physical existence I suppose that there are two directions one can take: either to engage with the issues at hand, and transform them in a positive way, or to further deny their embodied self, escaping into a fantasy where it's existence becomes negated. Technology has now made the second road easier than ever to take, with entire cyber communities offering solace and companionship to suffering individuals, and reinforcing their fantastical beliefs to no end.

There's really no end it it in sight either, when you consider it. As technology develops, it will become even easier for people to retreat further and further into fantastical imaginings, and thus become even more divorced from their physical existence. Scary...
 
 
illmatic
12:02 / 30.01.08
Technology has now made the second road easier than ever to take, with entire cyber communities offering solace and companionship to suffering individuals, and reinforcing their fantastical beliefs to no end.

I was going to write a bit about this a few days ago, but stopped myself because I find Otherkin fundamentally absurd, and couldn't face the shame of writing a post about them...but here I go...

One of the basics that add to the absurdity for me is that it's the sort of subculture which wouldn't exist withot the internet. The speed and ease of internet communications (as opposed to post) makes this sort of thing so much easier, and I suspect act as a jump start to the whole subculture. This make it seem all the more insubstantial and screwed up to me. There may be the germ of an intersting post in here, but I find the whole concept such a load of bolloks, I'm struggling to write anything substantative.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:30 / 30.01.08
I find it an interesting area to go for a kick-about myself because quite honestly I see precisely the same kinds of dysfunction and maladaptivity amongst other inhabitants of the occult/magic/spirituality kludge. Tends to be more marked and easier to deliniate in people who were dragons in a past etc., but you get the same crap all over.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
12:49 / 30.01.08
This piece in The Sun puts a slightly different spin on the Wonderland story.
 
 
rosie x
15:13 / 30.01.08
Ha ha, tha's fantastic. But Trouser, you shouldn't look too closely at the Sun...

Glad it was a happy ending though!
 
 
Dead Megatron
15:54 / 30.01.08
In contrast, I have known people who work with animal spirits, and have found them to often be enhanced by their work. The animal spirits seem to enrich them and actually extend their capacities. Some of these persons have even become physically like their totems in an almost uncanny way. What I see going on with the dragons seems to be a very different phenomenon. It's almost as if their alter image is their own worst enemy, obessively drawing their attention from their own lives.

Hi, guys.I've been lurking in this thread for a while, keeping to myself since I don't have any real contributions to make. However, that paragraph made me curious,as a layman in the subject, about one thing: are there (or could there be) a Dragon animal spirit, or is every animal spirit connected to a "real" species of animal? Additionaly, does it have to be an animal species that exist in the present, or can it be from a long extinct animal species? (because I do remember Carlos Castañeda mentioning a sabertooth animal guide in one of his books, but I understand he's not considered the most reliable of sources)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:43 / 30.01.08
This is would be better in the Stupid Q's thread, wouldn't it. Lots of people will have lots of different answers depending on how their particular trad handles the concepts involved. First define "spirit." Then demonstrate that "spirits" exist.
Then define the difference between real and imaginary as it relates to the work at hand.
 
 
Dead Megatron
16:48 / 30.01.08
point!
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:41 / 30.01.08
To explain my interest in this area, as a survivor i tend to disassociate my identity and other phenomena around me, one of the obvious escape avenues is to dislocate through imagination. I have rather a large interest in things like film, reading, media in general, how media interacts with personal awareness and identity. I have also been a role player at times, and have an interest in spiritual topics.

I have mixed spiritual themes in to games i have run for others based largely around Christian themes but also with shamanic character. But i have never really practiced it in the opposite fashion, or tried to use a game as an act of magic as some suggest. A long while back i was involved in a vampire online community and treated it like roleplaying and an extension of the goth sub culture.

I think talking about this from the idea of Identity is helpful as it creates a structure to de construct imaginary self image or highlight the difference between a magical self image and a magical practice or spiritual life.

It also highlights where negative or problematic egotistical character can come from and allows a perception to grow of what attributes that development.

There is also something related here to the nature of scrying, i know that seems an odd thing to say, but, when i scry i have noticed alot of my own unconscious material coming to the surface often in the form of visions.

Now there is a parallel to this in turning on a screen and identifying with what ever images are presented. A sense of dislocation occurs while viewing as it does while scrying.

Now that people are contorting that sense of self image through text art etc upon a screen, they are trying to consciously reflect back at themselves what they want to see rather than what is actually there.

Thou we have made displays with (and cast big deceptions) costume, make up etc, so we contort the physicality, now people are attempting to contort conscious self image and feeling through reflecting the media they consume.

Scrying should be an attempt to communicate with spirits so perhaps that is the wrong term, but mirror work does seem to cover what i am talking about, in a sense thou when somebody watches a film they are forming relationships to the characters on screen (hopefully well aware that they are fictional), but then that same screen can present actual events of real people.

The relationship to a mirror becomes confusing the reflected image as the reality of physicality. Accepting that the mirror shows a truth is really just as absurd as pointing to a photograph of me and saying that is me.

Does anybody else get what i mean about the relationship between mirrors and tv screens, pc monitors. I learnt to build a relationship with my reflection from a young age, i also learnt to identify with characters from the screen or displaced from the screen in my imagination at a young age, just as i am creating a relationship now to the text i am writing as if these sentences are mine or represent me, this is where the confusion or self deception begins. Confusing the art of self creation and reflection with the self.
 
 
Unconditional Love
01:42 / 31.01.08
I have been looking for other angles to support this phenomena
of self construction and found this Growing up online The programme can be watched from the site it launches in a pop up, The third chapter called self expression, trying on new kinds of identity, kind of illustrates the kind of dynamic i am trying to express pretty well.

The program from what i have seen has a negative connotation to this process, and the third chapter in particular is very worrying. This whole culture of selling the self and the competition it creates for attention whether by fame or notoriety is kind of disheartening, it reinforces the value of a temporal image as something all important and places no value on inherent internal meaning or value's.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:50 / 31.01.08
I think we're veering off topic a bit here. Maybe a discussion of this material would be better off over in the Magic as a maladaptive coping mechanism thread, if such discussion is to be had.
 
 
Unconditional Love
15:10 / 31.01.08
I do not think i am really, i am trying to point towards a possible mechanism behind the phenomena of otherkin, that of how we can relate to the idea of and our ability to self reflect. How do the structures we are socialised with inform our ability to create identity for ourselves.

Since the otherkin phenomena seems to be largely from what i can see to be about how we conceive of ourselves in relation to ourselves as art or how we may reflect upon ourselves in our imagination i think i am on topic, i am still trying to understand how this area works.

It also allows me to look at my own internal narrative too, and hopefully allows others to see how a greater awareness of how that operates, can aid in a magical practice. I think it is very important to understand the whys and wherefores behind the story's we may tell ourselves about our experiences in life.

How does one story lead someone to identify as a dragon with some sense of certainty ? and another story lead me to the point where almost all things in my life are a question, an if , perhaps or maybe, never quite accepted as absolutely real.

I find that whole area of self perception and self knowledge fascinating, which is why otherkin hold this curiosity for me, they seem to me to take what is a hobby a game to me, the narrative of a story and turn it into a life style. While i can leave the game or story as a fiction, otherkin seem to take the narrative as some kind of 'reality'. while i am aware that my hobby informs my self identity in some respects and creates some unconscious material, i am not confusing that for an identity, but a contributing factor to a whole sense of self, rather than a delusional self image which at this time it seems to me that otherkin are presenting.

The process that goes into creating that delusion (i am still open to the idea that it may not be) is interesting to note and try to de construct to see how such social and psychological self identity is reached, from the beginning pretension of self identification to the final outcome of social expression.

I undertake similar processes in other areas of my life when i present a persona at an interview for example or around people i do not trust, it gives me an insight in to personality seen as an objective experience rather than as a subjective relationship, which is how i seem to relate to my own self construction.
 
 
Z. deScathach
07:36 / 01.02.08
The one thing that intrigues me about this is the possibilities that arise from different ways that one might relate to one's self as a dragon. One could see this spirit as a magnetic force, pulling them to tranform, expanding their abilities, or one could see that spirit as "I Am". But what happens when "I Am" is not seen as coherent with bodily reality, and is not seen as transforming force. It would seem that it could be quite depressing. What's to stop a person from perhaps realizing that A. They can actually alter their body to more closely resemble their dragon spirit, (there was an individual who has extensively altered his body to resemble a lizard,I would link to this, but it's ungodly late here and I'm not well). or B. Realizing that this may be impractical, to let said spirit transform them psychically. This is what I've seen in individuals that seem to relate to such an orientation more healthfully.

In one orientation, there seems to be a "I am a dragon" orientation, while the other could be, "I am transformed by my dragon spirit". It is the latter that seems to me to produce more qualitative and healthy changes..... at least that's what I've observed in some of the pagan communities that I've belonged to. I should note though that I haven't seen that transformative orientation applied to dragon spirit per se, the individuals that I know have had spirit relationships with non-mythical animals, but I would see no reason why such a transformative relationship could not occur with a mythical animal.
 
 
EmberLeo
07:48 / 01.02.08
Well, some of the identification process that I can see happening with "I am a Dragon" as opposed to "I am transformed by dragon spirit" is the ability to identify with the strengths and challenges.

For example, riffing for a bit if you will, hypothetically (that is, I'm not actually describing myself, nor am I a dragon, but I know some folks who identify with dragons on one or another level, and am pulling examples from multiple sources accordingly).

"I am a dragon. I tend to collect and hoard treasures for their perceived value, rather than any actual use or sentimental value to me personally. I feel driven to be a guardian, but am not particularly interested in socializing. I have a wretched temper, but people like me because I'm warm, and also shiny. My bark is definitely not worse than my bite, but I can come across as much larger than my human body actually is."

So what does this tell me?

"My need to collect things might be better served by a career that involves keeping track of lists, rather than being a pack rat at home. My ability to come across as larger than I am, be fierce, and to guard things might be well exercised in martial arts, and even provided as a service to others. Not so much groups, though, as specific individuals. I should probably put active effort into learning to control my temper - another place martial arts might help...."

Etc. etc.

In other words, be they metaphorical or concrete, identifying with something can easily give us ways to analyze ourselves when we are otherwise too close to our own problems.

--Ember--
 
 
Unconditional Love
19:29 / 01.02.08
I think what your describing Ember is a positive way of self reflecting an identity, it approaches the idea of identification from the view point of self knowledge, using a self projection to feedback potentials about what possible positive behaviours or sets of experiences could manifest from relating to a self image as defined by myth or perhaps even a culturally specific archetype.

Where i would suggest that same process becomes problematic is when it is undertaken without some degree of self knowledge or critical ability being employed to not only highlight the positive benefits of assuming that identity or reflecting upon it, but the weaknesses it may hide, this can be a very self deceptive process not only self destructive but damaging to others.

Perhaps their in lays that potential pitfall, Relating to an identity or persona or aspect of self implies a distance a 3rd person perspective, being the identity etc if done without any reasoned reflection, can lead to a 1st person perspective that cannot see past the self, the self becomes so big and wants so much certainty in its current manifestation (it wants to retain its peak continually) that it has to keep constantly reinforcing the structure of its self identity, not only through repetition of the story's we tell ourselves but through environment, the symbols we reflect back to ourselves and how ever we socialise with others whether that be mediated through technology or not. That creates a consistent delusion that becomes prone to fantasy as a way of strengthening that identity. Rather than actual activity or practice which is what you are suggesting above.
 
 
EmberLeo
21:18 / 01.02.08
Mm, perhaps I am sufficiently surrounded by people who tend to self-reflect as a result of their identification... I mean, yes, I've seen some folks get so wrapped up in their identity as Otherkin, or Furry (which isn't necessarily the same thing at all), or what-have-you, that they lose track of the value of their own humanity. But most of them get past it either as they pass through adolescence (in which case, really, it's just another form for the usual process of self-identification), or else as whatever stresses they happen to be under give them some breathing room and they can afford (emotionally) to take a closer look.

I... think I have an unusual sample set or else tend to presume the best of people. I know a LOT of folks who identify on some level with one or another animal, though few go so far as to identify as Otherkin, and I know a few folks who I'm pretty sure really are Otherkin - at least to my understanding of the word. But comparatively few are dysfunctional in execution.

Of course, a lot of them mightn't ever go there in the first place were it not socially acceptable in their immediate environment. It's not uncommon for alternative stuff like that to average better where it's more acceptable, because the sample is not limited to people who are so far out there they have no choice but to be bizzare.

--Ember--
 
 
NyteMuse
10:15 / 02.02.08
I haven't been around for a while, but a friend called my attention to this post as something I might want to comment on. I identify as Otherkin; I identify as vampiric. As for how it works, many of the _sane_ Otherkin (yes, some exist) do not believe that they really and truly are dragons. It often tends to be more a case of "I'm different...I have these qualities...dragons had these qualities, so I'm a dragon." This reasoning tends to happen on a subconscious level. The basic notion is non-human soul in human body, and for every 10 Otherkin you talk to, you'll hear 20 theories on how/why. Some think it was a punishment, some a reward, some a choice, some an evolution.

As for the vampirism part, I see vampire as less of an identity and more of a condition. Everyone produces energy to sustain their bodies, by eating and drinking well, exercising, resting...vampires don't produce enough. It's an unbalanced equation, so we have to actively take it in from elsewhere, outside ourselves. Is it all in my head? *shrug* I don't have enough conclusive evidence to say definitively. I know if I lock myself up away from people for several days, I will get lethargic, hypersensitive, fatigued, irritable, dizziness, migraines, weakness, arrhythmia, and experience a persistent feeling of emptiness and eventually suffer from extreme indigestion and abdominal cramping from eating any food or drink. If I go out where people are or have been, I recover almost immediately. It works, I'm not going to question it. I've been to many, many doctors for diagnosis and treatment, and no luck. I don't believe vampires are a subtype of Otherkin...there aren't enough racial qualities to justify a separate race. Some people are vampiric because of being Otherkin, some because of chakra or subtle body alteration or damage, and some for other reasons. IMO, it's a condition, not a phenotype. Some people turn it into an identity, which might be fine for them, but it's not a requirement.

Commenting on a point made earlier re: the term vampire and alternates. Quinotauri did make a valiant go-around, but folks outside of the House didn't seem to take to it, as I'd heard. Kheprian was not a term that was meant to refer to all vampires. The term Kheprian is only meant to be applied to a member of the current organization of House Kheperu. Being that HK believes in a shared history and specific origin story, sometimes the term Kheprian has been used somewhat erroneously to refer to people who took part in that shared history/origin (meaning they had the same type of subtle body alteration) but chose not to join the current incarnation of the House.

Honestly, if another less-charged term could be conceived of and become somewhat popular, I'd love it. The problem is when one tries to assume a new word (like Quinotauri), you say "I'm a Quinotauri". Person responds "What's a Quinotauri?" You respond with a description. Person responds "Oh, you mean a vampire." That and the fact that the vampire community is so diverse (as is the Otherkin community) that it's nigh impossible to get everyone or even a majority to agree on a new word to start using, and some people _like_ the term with all its associations. The people who really don't like it will tend to use other terms (energy deficiency, energetic diabetes, etc), but I think it unlikely the community at large will change. It seems more than likely that the first person who noticed these symptoms/attributes/tendencies in zirself simply said "OK, vampire" without thinking of the ramifications.

And I agree with the frustration regarding people who use their phenotypes or identities as excuses for laziness or poor behavior. Just because someone believes they were fey high court does not mean zie should not obey the laws of the society in which they live. I've said similar things about past lives; it's cool knowing where you came from, but you are not still that person/creature/thing. Live in the now. So you're a dragon or an elf? So what? You still have to go to work, pay rent, be functional... I get so aggravated by the "better than human" attitude I see copped all over the community. Vampires and Otherkin are not separate from humans...they are still at least in some part human, so let's not pull the metaphysical superiority thing.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:53 / 02.02.08
Thank you for taking the time to come by and address this, Nytemuse.

I know if I lock myself up away from people for several days, I will get lethargic, hypersensitive, fatigued, irritable, dizziness, migraines, weakness, arrhythmia, and experience a persistent feeling of emptiness

I'm not being funny or anything, but couldn't at least some of this come from what we non-vampires call "being lonely and bored"? Locking oneself up away from normal human companionship will produce ill-effects in practically anyone, surely. With the exception of some individuals who are wired to be more solitary, humans are social animals--we need the society of our fellows just as we need food and sleep. We genuinely suffer if we don't get that interaction, especially we're cooped up indoors all day. Isolation produces negative psychological effects, and negative psychological effects can produce physical symptoms over time. I can't think of a better recipe for fatigue, dizziness and headaches than being shut up all alone!

Everyone produces energy to sustain their bodies, by eating and drinking well, exercising, resting...vampires don't produce enough. It's an unbalanced equation, so we have to actively take it in from elsewhere, outside ourselves

Okay, this, to me, looks incomplete. For a start, what do you mean by "energy" here? When I eat food, I get energy from the food, sure. This energy is chemical energy; it is identifiable and measurable in the form of calories. When I excercise, I burn off this chemical energy in the form of kinetic energy, also identifyable and measurable.

When I rest, I feel subjectively more "energetic" because toxins are processed out of my system, healing takes place in damaged areas of my body. When I sleep, my brain goes off and sorts out whatever sleeping brains need to sort out. This is less well-understood, but the changes in subjective energy levels experienced by a tired, unrested person and the same person after a good night's sleep are tied in to measurable, identifiable chemical changes in the body and brain.

If I eat properly and take regular excercise, I subjectively feel more "energetic" because I am causing identifiable and measurable changed to occur in my body--sufficient vitamins, minerals, and other chemically classifiable nutrients are derived from the food, the excercise improves muscle tone and makes sure that sufficient oxygen is getting to my brain. I can use the phrase "I feel more energetic" to describe how I feel, but it's a metaphor--there isn't any more "energy" of any identifiable physical type sloshing around in my system than there would be if I sat on the sofa and ate bon-bons all day.

So what kind of energy is lacking in your model? What's the mechanism by which this lack creates fatigue and ill-health?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:18 / 02.02.08
(NB: There's an older Energy thread here, and one on "psychic vampirism" here.)
 
 
EvskiG
14:29 / 02.02.08
I know if I lock myself up away from people for several days, I will get lethargic, hypersensitive, fatigued, irritable, dizziness, migraines, weakness, arrhythmia, and experience a persistent feeling of emptiness . . . If I go out where people are or have been, I recover almost immediately.

That's what Jungians would call "being an extrovert."

No vampirism necessary.
 
 
EvskiG
15:55 / 02.02.08
Might as well elaborate.

What you noted above is a pretty-much classic description of extroversion: drained when alone, energized when with other people.

Honestly, if another less-charged term could be conceived of and become somewhat popular, I'd love it.

Extrovert. There you go.

Describes how about half the population of the earth relates to the world and people around them.

Naturally, some people are more extroverted than others.

So why would one use "vampire" instead?

Given the attributes usually associated with vampires (romantic, dangerous, creatures of the night, evil or just misunderstood, etc.), from Dracula to Anne Rice to your favorite White Wolf player's guide, it might suit one's aesthetic sensibilities.

It might make intuitive sense, and serve as an explanation for one's personality style ("I feel energized when I'm around other people. Of course, I'm a vampire!") or provide one with a sense of purpose or focus ("ah, now I know how to dress or act -- like a vampire!").

It might allow one to plug into a community of similarly-minded people, at the local goth club or on the Internet, providing a social life.

Or it might just provide a bit of entertainment and fun.

Or I could be patronizing and entirely wrong.
 
 
NyteMuse
20:36 / 02.02.08
OK, going to try and answer the various points all in one thread...

In regards to the comments about the symptoms = extroversion.
While I am aware of the introvert/extrovert notions, I had never known that migraines, arrhythmia, loss of consciousness, or actual physical weakness could result. My only thought/counter to that would be that there have been other ways I've recovered that did not involve going out into the crowd. In energy manipulation guides, there are techniques described for "long distance" feeding or absorption of energy, wherein you visualize a person and visualize (yes, it's repetitive, but I don't like the connotations of "imagine") drawing energy from them.
Could I be recovering from just thinking about the person? *shrug* Maybe.

The other technique is called ambient feeding, which is drawing in the energy that's kind of in the air that has been given off by those who have passed before. If a vampire in need truly was just suffering symptoms because zie was an extrovert who had been locked away from people, would zie be able to alleviate those symptoms by walking into a deserted park, store, or any other location and drawing in energy? In most cases, the vamp is not thinking about being with people or a specific person, so that seems to not support the earlier theory I posited re: distance feeding. Is it delusional? Maybe, though I've heard tell of some people with heightened psychic sensitivity noticing a difference in a room that a vampire has just walked through and fed on (when they did not know the vamp had been there before). I walked into a rather loud/busy/crowded restaurant with a friend once when zie was hungover and cranky. Zie is very sensitive to subtle forces, and when we left the restaurant, zie later commented how interesting it was that zie felt like there was a cushion or void around her so that the busy atmosphere did not press upon zir. I was in the seat next to zir and ambient feeding. Or it could have been something zie was doing unconsciously *shrug* We haven't been able to schedule other experiments.

And, also, it can be possible for a vamp to continue to experience those symptoms even surrounded by people, even if zie is enjoying it and in a good mood, so I am disinclined to believe that the symptoms of deficiency are the symptoms of lack of companionship, personally.

I'm willing to accept that I could be wrong...I don't have all the truths, and I'm not near egotistical enough to think I'm infallible

Re: the questions about energy.
The energy referred to in vampirism is what is referred to in China as Qi/Chi, and in India as prana. Some people think of it as psychic energy. Honestly, I don't really know a whole heck of a lot about the particulars and specifics...I'm still making my own studies and inquiries on that subject. I am of the opinion that there really are only 2 substances in the universe: matter and energy. If it ain't one, it's t'other. That doesn't mean that all energies are the same...I think it's the "molecular structure" (in quotes because I have no better term), or the base structure/resonance that's the same, but different forms have different frequencies or resonances or some other quality. Reiki, prana, electricity...all energy, just "vibrating on a different level" if that makes sense. Some people refer to this as psychic energy, the kind of energy that is used in magic or that makes up the aura or subtle body. It's...life energy, to put it simply. It kind of penetrates all forms of life, including animals and the earth. Some vamps claim they can feed off elemental sources, like tress. I'm...well, not skeptical that it can happen, but I don't see that as the same kind of vampire. Energy exchange happens between everyone. A conversation is an energetic exchange, so feeding on the energy of the sun...to me, vampire connotes relying on human prana. I have worked with a donor, and zie has commented on definitely feeling something. Could it be suggestion or psychosomatic? I suppose so, except for the fact that zie was able to localize where it occurred when I did not say as much. I've also tried draining from someone without telling them ahead of time and zie noticed, so I feel fairly strongly that something is happening.

So, Ev, while I appreciate the suggestion of using "extrovert" instead, I personally don't believe it's the same thing. Many vamps I know, myself included, actually do not tend to like crowds or people and will be hiding in the corner at parties. I envision extroverts as the life of the party, so the 2 just don't match in my mind

(Thanks for the links to old threads...I don't make a habit of necroposting, so since the vampirism thread is a good 2 years old, I won't bother resurrecting it, but it is interesting reading)

Hope that helped somewhat...
 
 
EvskiG
03:51 / 03.02.08
I envision extroverts as the life of the party, so the 2 just don't match in my mind

Well, Jung's concept of the extrovert (which he spelled "extravert") isn't exactly the same as the conventional "life of the party."

Here's one author (two, really, Keirsey and Bates) on the subject:

"The person who chooses people as a source of energy probably prefers extraversion, while the person who prefers solitude to recover energy may tend towards introversion . . . Extraverts . . . appear to be energized, or 'tuned up,' by people. Talking to people, playing with people, and working with people is what charges their batteries."

Might not describe your situation. Then again, it might.
 
 
NyteMuse
04:05 / 03.02.08
It's definitely an interesting theory...I don't really find it works precisely that way with me. Having to work with people or interact with them on almost any level, I tend to find extremely draining. If I were to say I enjoyed being amongst people in any capacity, it's more as a voyeur. I prefer to sit in the corner and watch people, listen to them talk...I get more irritable when the attention is on me.

But it definitely gives me something to think about, thanks
 
 
ghadis
05:15 / 03.02.08
Hi NyteMuse

Just to start off i do have to say that i'm really enjoying your posts. I don't have any experience at all with the otherkin or vampire subcultures and it's great to hear about a lot of this stuff first hand through you.

Loads of stuff to talk about though! I think a lot of your ideas about energy will be better taken up by people who have done a lot of prana/chi/reiki work, which i havn't, but my own thoughts on the matter is, to paraphrase Mordant, i've got energy coming and going all the time, i don't need to go round sucking in and out. Ok that maybe a bit of a bad half-remembered paraphrase , sorry Mordant!, but the idea still holds for me i feel.

Which leads me to my main question about this.

What do you GIVE?

If all this energy is a tangible force that certain people, through whatever reason, have a hard time getting so that they have to resort to ambient feeding or blood drinking, WHERE DOES THAT ENERGY GO??? Because from a certain angle this frame of mind or sub-culture or way of thinking could maybe look like they haven't yet learnt the very basic idea, and it is a hard one to learn sometimes of course, of sharing.
 
  

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