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Feminism 101

 
  

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Ex
08:08 / 10.07.07
The BBC page has posted some of the responses - the top half of the page is gender-split vocabulary, but at the bottom there's a few choice annoyed replies.

No show for my scathing porridge-related outburst.

About half the original list are about women as consumers of fashion and city-based pop culture, and wouldn't really touch my mother, for example, who is certainly a woman.
I don't know if that's because when people generalise about 'men' and 'women' they're often talking about urban-living consumers in their 20s (and I don't know why that is - are gender patterns easier to mark and mock in that group? Or is it just some kind of norm?). Or possibly because femininity is so often conflated with/conjured up by referencing its consumer accesories.

What is frustrating is that I'd often like to discuss patterns of speech I've noticed and find out whether they are gender-based patterns, or blips regional to me, or something else I hadn't considered. But I'm wary of any discussion turning into Men Are From Mars and the Rules say they Shouldn't Have to Iron While Mapreading.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:51 / 10.07.07
They must have received a shitload of complaints. I wish there was a body that I could complain to, the comments they've used are really uncritical.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:56 / 10.07.07
DID MY LICENCE FEE PAY FOR THAT SHIT?!!?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:02 / 10.07.07
Hmmm. Would this be covered by the PCC? Otherwise, it's probably letters to the editor, but where else would one go? One can't even contact the advertisers...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:10 / 10.07.07
Log cabin.

Dogs.

GUNS.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
04:29 / 13.07.07
Today's reason to hate the Daily Mail:

The BBC confirmed this week that it is to broadcast a news bulletin on its main channel that will last just one minute, and which is likely to be presented by Natasha Kaplinsky.

Critics have accused the Corporation of dumbing down - but how can they suggest such a thing if an intellectual heavyweight like Miss Kaplinsky - famous for her twirls in Strictly Come Dancing - is involved.


But surely, it's just a bit of fun?
 
 
Olulabelle
12:57 / 13.07.07
My comment on the stupid BBC article hasn't been posted either, but I expect that was because I got sidetracked halfway through and went to try on some shoes.
 
 
epona
19:27 / 08.08.07
changing the topic here to link you all to a very good blog, written by a man, directed at some of his fellows. seemed like it belonged in feminism 101 to me.

how not to be an asshole: a guide for men.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:26 / 08.08.07
That's brilliant. Thanks, epona.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:27 / 09.08.07
I think this is an especially good point:

If no woman in your life has ever talked to you about how she lives her life with an undercurrent of fear of men, consider the possibility that it may be because she sees you as one of those men she cannot really trust.

Damn straight.
 
 
nixwilliams
08:39 / 09.08.07
oh, i am going to link everyone to that. thank you.
 
 
epona
13:54 / 09.08.07
and this part:

When the topic at hand is men not taking an issue seriously, suggesting that the issue might not really be all that serious is not being dispassionate. It is, in fact, taking a side. And the people on the side you’re taking, incidentally, include the gropers, the rapists, the sexual-favor-demanding bosses.

also one could say it is a form of dismission, not dispassion. it invalidates other's emotions and is something i am currently struggling with in regards to the men in my life.

if a man were to repeat his desire for something that wasn't happening, would he get called a nag?

sorry i think i'm running off on a tangent now here. carry on!
 
 
Ticker
14:23 / 09.08.07
I find the whole process of dismissing people as valid experts of their own experience shocking. then there is the outright dismissing of their experience as anything that needs to be valid and addressed which has been known to make me go explody.

epona and I were discussing being dismissed and our different reactions to it. I find when I am dismissed, my voice my experience, I have this moment of confusion. It just doesn't make sense for a mintue and I fell like I've taken a crazy pill.

A casual friend of mine who has always wanted to buy my motorcycle is very much a friendly man. I suspect he doesn't think of him self as sexist or dismissive. I ran into him last week at a party and he was excited to go look at my motorcycle to see how it was running. I used a male pronoun for my motorcycle and my friend instantly corrected my that it was clearly a female. the dismissive quality of his comment was stunning.
We went outside and he gave me some useful suggestions about my motorcycle's state and yet I could feel the tension between us over the pronoun disagreement and my calling him on the fact that it was my motorcycle so therefore I knew the pronoun choice better. (I mean c'mon we're anthropmorphizing a machine)

Part of me wants to know what about my motorcycle makes it clearly female for him? Part of me wants to know why he felt it was ok to dismiss what I said several times, was it just something he does in what he perceives as his area of expertise (motorcycles) or was it because as I read the exchnage because I am gender female by him and therefore not an expert on what is pretty obviously an opinion.
 
 
alas
14:37 / 09.08.07
XK--argh! And the whole time I bet you're also thinking, "Oh for fuck's sake, I should just let this drop--this is just silly! The pronoun for a silly machine! It doesn't matter! People are dying in Darfur and women are getting raped every few minutes, and I'm getting upset about this, with this guy who's really basically a nice bloke?" Or that's the conversation I'd be having in my head and left twisted up, and meanwhile probably end up saying something that makes me look really stupid about the bike!

FYI--I just posted what might be a snarky response in the Switchboard that links to the "How Not to Be an Asshole"
 
 
Papess
14:38 / 09.08.07
Well there is that thing - that old reference to all machinery as being female that may have embedded itself his brain, Inkwitch. You know, "She is a big boat", "Her engine is running fine."...and so forth.
 
 
Ticker
15:35 / 09.08.07
It was the resulting disagreement that that motorcycle was clearly female that set me off. My machine, I have a relationship to, not his to dismiss my statement...

Actaully, alas, I think that was sort of what epona and I were dicussing. I don't as rule internally stumble over my reaction as much as stumble over wtf is wrong with the person who just did it. As a result of me being more likely to say 'no don't dismiss me/my experience/ my opinion/ my statement' i tend not to get treated that way as much as other people who have internalized the doubt/value reflex. Which of course leads to other gender badness...

It might very well be my investment as an expert of my experience sometimes puts me toe to toe when I should let it go.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
09:39 / 12.08.07
So, to quote from Flowers' blog, specifically the regular feature on noted prick Nirpal Dhaliwal, who says (italics mine):

"People should be honest and admit that platonic heterosexual relationships are totally bogus. It's a perverse dynamic of emotional intimacy and sexual distance that is humiliating for men. Some of these friendships do become sexualised but I suspect that when a woman says: "He grew on me" about a former friend, what she really means is "Someone more interesting never showed up." I've realised that it's best to lay my cards on the table. I'm not interested in just hanging out with women, and never have been.

It's no crime to want to have sex with them, and the ones I spend time with like me for wearing my heart on my sleeve. It adds a spark even if we never end up in bed. Women know what makes men tick, and will respect them for not getting sucked into the demeaning hell of friendship with them."


This is bollocks, right? Quite apart from the assumption "Nirpal doesn't want to hang out with women = all straight men don't want to hang out with women", if emotional intimacy without sexual intercourse = perverse, then surely most people's relationships with their grandparents are "perverse"?

Then we get this idea that some men beleive it's a crime to want to have sex, see, and these soft lads need egging on by Nirpal. Overall it's this idea that men who are friends with women really only want to have sex with them, that this is the only thing of interest a woman could possibly provide. What bollocks. I can say right away I learned more about the universe in general through hanging about with, being friends with, girls when I was at school - quite apart from whatever erotic chicanery might have gone on.

I suppose one could point out some concessions, possibly - along the lines of all human relationships and intercourse, male/female, male/male, female/female, having some kind of sexual quotient or undercurrent (as in D.H. Lawrence), or about there being such a thing as "nice guy" character who acts in a friendly way towards women just so he can have sex with them, but really, I doubt Nirpal would admit to either of these.
 
 
Dead Megatron
22:36 / 12.08.07
Totally bollocks. I have some female friends. Some of them I'm attracted to, yes, but some of them I'm not. Some of them are even attracted to me. And in any of those cases, it doesn't seem to affect the friendship at all, actually.

I did try the "nice guy" routine to "seduce" someone (as it is) in the past, and all I got from that was a very good friend for life. (Which is great, don't get me wrong)

[sorry if this post is too simplist]
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:50 / 12.08.07
Wouldn't it be great if Nirpal Dhaliwal just never ever got to have sex again, ever, with anyone?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:18 / 12.08.07
I'd settle for him being dropped by his publishers, the Evening Standard, The Mail and whoever else lets him churn out this sort of tiring material. Which is designed to annoy and nothing else. Although it would be good if 'little Nirpal' dropped off too.
 
 
Dead Megatron
23:35 / 12.08.07
Up until now, I had no idea who Nirpal Dhaliwal was. A Google search's top and first result produced an article entitled "How feminism destroyed real men".

I see what you mean
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:54 / 12.08.07
Dear Powers That Be,

In the name of all that is just, merciful, and non-eye-stabby, please let every single woman in Nirp's life (esp. that bloody ex-wife), from this day until the hour of his death, GET ONE SELF-ESTEEM.
 
 
Tsuga
01:40 / 13.08.07
I had no idea who that dumbass was, either, and read through more than half of that "how feminism destroyed real men" article before realizing I just don't need to punish myself like that. So, is this guy just a one-trick pony of being a professional dullard?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
01:48 / 13.08.07
Basically, yes. He also has/had an astoundingly dysfunctional relationship with his (now ex?) wife, where he would go off and have affairs and she would cry and then forgive him and then buy more Touché Eclat. I paraphrase, but really not by much. This was not so unusual as astoundingly dysfunctional relationships go, except in that both parties were recounting the whole sordid mess in their respective newspaper columns--and neither of them were embarrassed.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:16 / 13.08.07
In Nirpal's defense (and believe me, no-one is more surprised to hear me say those words than me) he writes competently on race. Admittedly, he writes best when he can swing the subject round to growing up working-class in South London but it's a start.
 
 
Dutch
10:16 / 13.08.07
What really struck me about the discussion on the blog following the article posted above, was how easily I've let the questioning of women's own experiences slip into my own mode of thought. And also, how I never realized the amount of precautions a lot of women are forced to take because of real threats being more aimed at them just for being women.

Questioning myself, I've found that, yes I've been guilty on all counts of dismissive/patronizing behavior towards women, and have been quietly downplaying the fear or hypervigilance that bothers a lot of women. While I knew this on some level to be true, the point really struck home for me when this female-identified person called Thorn posted:

Chris, thank you so much. In particular, for this line:

"If no woman in your life has ever talked to you about how she lives her life with an undercurrent of fear of men, consider the possibility that it may be because she sees you as one of those men she cannot really trust."

This is so very, very true. The more often I try to explain or describe my experiences as a woman to men in my life and get dismissed, second-guessed or otherwise denied that what I’m saying is true, the less likely I am to mention it in front of men again. When women talk about that kind of thing, I’ll bring it up, but with men? The steady application of, “Maybe you’re just being oversensitive/paranoid” has taught me that no, most men in my life, even many who love me, do not consider me enough of a human being to keep a reliable and accurate record of my own experience.

To Mike: Absolutely. Yes. ALL women. ALL. Not a few, not some, not most. ALL women live with the tales of harassment, assault, rape and murder endured by women we have known, echoing in our ears. For some of us, those echoes are deafening, magnified by the harassments, assaults and/or rapes we ourselves have endured.

Because of those echoes, we take precautions you probably never once in your life considered taking. Here are some examples:

- I never get into my car after dark without first checking to make sure the back seat is empty.
- If I am walking alone after dark, I never listen to my headphones. (Though, when I used to ride the bus, I would leave them in and only turn on my CD player once I was actually on the bus. If I lived in a larger city I probably not even do that, though.)
- When walking alone at night, I do my best to keep my hands free, and preferably have something I can use as a weapon in one.
- When I’m carrying my groceries into my apartment after dark, I am aware of what I am carrying in which hand - a single heavy item goes into my dominant hand (a gallon of milk, a plastic bag of canned foods), the other hand is ready to drop whatever it is holding so I can run.
- If I go to investigate a strange noise in my apartment at night, I grab a heavy object in one hand, and a can of some kind (any kind!) of spray in the other. Alternatively, I punch in the numbers “911″ on my cordless phone and investigate with my thumb over the “on” button.

I have never been raped. I have never been assaulted. I have never received a threatening letter, phone call or email.

On the other hand, I have been briefly stalked by an ex-boyfriend. I have been groped by more than one stranger, and by one friend of my father’s. I have been cat-called and name-called on the street.

Compared to too many women I know, I’ve got nothing to complain about. And yet I remain, and will likely remain for the rest of my life, hypervigilant.


The list of precautions sounds very strange to my ears. I realize I don't very often, if at all have, this kind of sense of threat or fear. And it's probably simply because I'm a male. Now, things may be different in the Netherlands compared to America as far as gender-related crime goes, but I suspect a lot of women would tell me the same thing here. This might come as a very poor and late realization and it's probably babysteps to most of the people who know more and have experienced first hand the kind of inequal treatment and have fear imposed on them. Still, reading a lot of the comments on the blog and here on Barbelith have begun to put holes in walls I never realized were so high inside my mind. Firstly, I was shocked to recognize quite a few parts of myself as fitting the dreaded "Nice Guy"-profile. Second, the knowledge of my own wrong-doings in the past has begun to be seen in new light. When I think of the way I treated my ex*, downplaying her honest problems and superimposing on them my own desire and pettiness, it's shameful, utterly shameful. Third: seeing this, the way all women are subject to a fear, or a constant danger (perceived and real), it has me questioning a lot of my own behaviour. I do not wish to frighten someone merely by walking behind them late at night, but if I question their experience of being frightened as well, it doubles the hurt.

Feel free to yell at me if I am stilling missing the point. I used to be scared to post in this thread, but I know I have to face up to my own negative way of thinking and acting which isn't going to end if I keep avoiding conflict and critical response.

*note that it was mentioned here before that the possessive "my" can be an ugly and demeaning way to refer to a person but I can't find a better word ATM.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:56 / 13.08.07
I think that's a pretty brave bit of self-examination there, Phriar. Speaking personally, it does me good to see someone making that kind of effort.

One thing I should point out is that it isn't just men who belittle and dismiss women's experiences along the harrassment-rape spectrum. I can't count the number of times I've heard a rape case in the paper or an episode of sexual harrassment suffered by a collegue get picked apart by other women in the most creepy, frightening way.

"Well, I used to [insert activity/career/co-worker] and nothing like that ever happened to me."

"I don't understand why these women don't just [dress more modestly/shout for help/tell the rapist they've got AIDS/insert panacea here]."

"She must have done XYZ."

"Well, what was she doing there at that time of night/morning?"

And you get exposed to this from the moment you can talk. Growing up I was frequently regaled by a female family member with the story of her cousin, who was walking home late at night when she was set upon by a man intent on rape. She escaped from him and found a policeman. When this terrified young woman blurted out what had happened, he responded "Oh, shall I give you one as well, then?" and she had to get away from him too.

Cautionary tale warning you against the dangers of being out late all by yourself? Narrative essay on the theme of don't trust the cops? Fuck no, amusing family anecdote that you repeatedly tell a nine-year-old girl, laughing all the way through, and concluding with a run-down of what the young woman used to get herself up like. (Apparently the hussy used to belt her raincoat very tightly. For shame!)

It's reasonable to look at examples of things that have happened to others in the past to see if we can spot ways that the situation could be handled more effectively if it occurs again. This kind of post-mortem always goes over and above that, though. The tiniest things are seized on as examples of What She Did Wrong and huge assumptions about the woman's sexual history, state of mind, alcohol/drug consumption and mode of dress, often in the abscence of any concrete information. It's like a kind of wanker's magic, really--if we say these magic words and do these magic things, and don't do these other magic things which are Bad and Unlucky, then nothing bad will ever happen to us; the corrollary being, of course, that if something happened to her then she must have done the Bad Things and is culpable for any crimes committed against her.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:16 / 13.08.07
Basically, yes. He also has/had an astoundingly dysfunctional relationship with his (now ex?) wife, where he would go off and have affairs and she would cry and then forgive him and then buy more Touché Eclat. I paraphrase, but really not by much. This was not so unusual as astoundingly dysfunctional relationships go, except in that both parties were recounting the whole sordid mess in their respective newspaper columns--and neither of them were embarrassed.

OH GOD IT'S HIM!

Right, I get you.

It all makes sense now.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:17 / 06.09.07
I'm bumping this because I found a really good example of feminism going too far, which I think might be useful for some of you man-haters.

Zedoktar, my brother in Chaos, said of attempts to censor him and his right to get his cats high:

I'm floored by all the greyfaced old women on here.

And wouldn't you know it, some PC asshole said:

Keyword: "women".

Your card is well and truly marked, kupo.


Zedoktar isn't taking any of that crap, though, and replies:

One final foot note: I may have sounded sexist calling you "old women" but I was referring to the old, senile part, not the woman part. I for one am kind of partial to women. It could have just as easily been old wombats or old hermaphroditic heroin junkies for all I care.

So shove it in your orifice of choice and spin.


OK, everyone? It doesn't matter that it was women that he used as a term of abuse. Because it could have been something else entirely. The fact that it wasn't something else - that he did call people who disagreed with him "women" to convey that they were weak and their opinions had no worth - signifies nothing.

Maybe if you weak sisters applied that common sense a bit more often, you'd spend less time complaining. If a man beats his wife, he could just as easily have beaten a drum, or a tasty dish of meringue. It means nothing that he just by happenstance beat his wife - the important part is beating. If a man murders a prostitute, he could just as well have murdered a delicious salisbury steak or a karaoke rendition of "Love Lift us up where we Belong". How can murdering a power ballad be considered sexist? It can't. Idiots

I love women. Love 'em.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:21 / 06.09.07
I like ladies too. Nice little things. Provided they know their place.
 
 
Spaniel
16:28 / 06.09.07
And they're great for sexing!
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:34 / 06.09.07
But let's face it, there's really no better insult than "old woman" is there? Old. Woman. An old man of course is a Jungian archetype of wisdom, as any k40te worth his salt can tell you (and lots of older guys still get plenty of pussy!). Whereas an old woman is just a woman who is old. She can not embody the mystical female principle, ie being a voracious receptacle for male energy, and is therefore inherently worthless.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:52 / 06.09.07
Probably smells of cabbage, too.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:07 / 06.09.07
IT COULD HHAVE BEEN ANY NOUN IT IS PURE COINCIDENCE WHY DON'T YOU BLOODY WOMEN LISTEN?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
20:17 / 06.09.07
But let's face it, there's really no better insult than "old woman" is there? Old. Woman. An old man of course is a Jungian archetype of wisdom, as any k40te worth his salt can tell you (and lots of older guys still get plenty of pussy!). Whereas an old woman is just a woman who is old. She can not embody the mystical female principle, ie being a voracious receptacle for male energy, and is therefore inherently worthless.

It's bad enough that I get this sort of treatment from my family (who are in for a shock when the will's read, oh yes) from the staff here in the Twilight home and from the regulars in the local whenever I manage to sneak past the gatekeepers for a quiet glass of sherry, but ... et tu Barbelith?!
 
  

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