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Feminism 101

 
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:41 / 20.06.07
No argument here. Little erk's been doing this long e-fuckign-nough.
 
 
*
06:57 / 21.06.07
Here's a great perspective on the "Nice Guy" problem.

Little Light, a radical woman of color blogger I admire, found on craigslist a disturbing example of what feminist bloggers mean when they refer, derogatorily, to a "Nice Guy." Trinity, whose post I linked to, fleshed it out a little for people who still might not get it.

I won't quote the craigslist ad. If you're familiar with the Nice Guy Syndrome, it's a particularly egregious example; you may find it disturbing. If you think the Nice Guy problem is that only Bad Guys get Chicks, you need to read it and some of the comments.

Little Light in particular gets some interesting comments from ex-Nice Guys, such as the following:

I'm sure I've been a Nice Guy [tm] in the past. I think the basic characteristic is that you expect to be rewarded for what you should have been doing in the first place. It's a common enough attitude in everyone; like the idea of a model citizen being someone who doesn't actively break the law. —Tom
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:38 / 21.06.07
That advert is just chilling, not because the attitude it represents is so extreme but because it's so very familiar. I felt exhausted just reading it, the same way I feel utterly exhausted every time someone like Qwik/CD comes along; just this horrendous sense of a completely futile uphill struggle that's never going to stop, that will continue till the day I die (or the day my brain breaks down under the strain and I succumb to the majority view, something I genuinely fear might one day happen). It just saps the soul, really.
 
 
Lugue
08:04 / 21.06.07
I'd hate to bring up nasty content that people don't want to go over if that's the case, but Zippy and Tts, could you elaborate on this, hum, figure? I understand that post and its complaints, but I'm not sure I grasp what general category of behaviour it's refering to. Is is simply the concept of The Gentleman? Or something more specific?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:13 / 21.06.07
Well the problem is that he isn't a nice guy. He's horrible.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
08:19 / 21.06.07
No disrespect meant to Fulano, but I too was about to ask for further clarification until I read through the full links. The sense of leathery bat wings suddenly and terrifyingly ripping through shirtcloth is in full effect in that horrendous personal ad, I think.

The arcade game analogy in that one poster's response is both hilarious and awful in its accuracy. Proof that within or without a feminist context, if you go into relationships with an innate sense of entitlement coupled with an inferiority complex, both you and the unfortunate object of your attention are screwed.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:20 / 21.06.07
Basically, the Nice Guy in this kind of context is someone who believes that in exchange for simply not engaging in criminal behaviour, he is entitled to sex. "I didn't rape you, so you owe me a shag."

The Nice Guy may also be the male "friend" who protests that he's only looking for a platonic relationship, whilst actually trying to get into your pants. Here, the Nice Guy skeezily misrepresents his intentions towards someone so that she imagines herself to have a good male chum when what she actually has is a rather cowardly person who doesn't have the spine to do anything as risky as ask if she likes him back. If she's already romantically involved with someone else when Nice Guy arrives on the scene, Nice Guy will still pull the friend act while not only trying to get into her pants but also to break up her relationship.

Should she become romantically involved with someone else or fail to ditch her current partener in favour of Nice Guy, Nice Guy will metamorphose into a block of ice (to her face--behind her back he'll be a spitting, snarling ball of invective and slander). Nice Guy will then kvetch to anyone who will listen about how awful it is that she didn't appreciate him, when he's such a nice guy.
 
 
Lugue
08:37 / 21.06.07
Hmm. Thanks.
 
 
*
08:41 / 21.06.07
TTS did this shorter and sweeter, but I wrote my rant and so it's going up, dammit.

It's not gentlemanly behavior that's the issue—it's the assumption that Nice Guys who don't take advantage of women deserve to be rewarded with sex. The Nice Guy worldview can be summed up as follows:

"I have never beaten up or raped a woman. Yet girls won't have sex with me. I observe that they will have sex with other guys, whom I characterize as the kind of people who will beat them up or rape them. This must be a failing on the women's part and not on mine, because for not forcing sex on women I deserve to be rewarded with sex."

The behavior that characterizes the Nice Guy is often described as outwardly friendly, often overly so, never or rarely directly suggesting romantic or sexual contact, but taking every opportunity to lament lack of same and disapprove of female "friends'" romantic interests. (As an example, one Nice Guy of my acquaintance would check a female friend's fridge when he was over at her house, and then restock it with milk and other essentials. He would walk her to and from "dangerous" locations without being asked, or asking. If asked, he would deny that he expected the privilege of sex with her, but he would "supportively" tell her how her chosen lovers would take advantage of her or abuse her and advise her to date someone who would "take care of" and "deserve" her. In the presence of other Nice Guys, they would together recite a litany of pain and anguish at the hardships all their female friends would experience at the hands of all the Bad Boys they wasted their sexual affections on, and consoled themselves that by not raping or abusing women they were taking the moral high ground.)

It has been suggested in my presence by other Nice Guys (guys who had never done anything overtly unethical to a woman, and were rather excessively proud of that) that the reason why there are so few Nice Guys is because 1) women don't reward them with sex, so most become Bad Boys because that way they are assured that they will get some, and 2) women don't reward them with sex, so the Nice Guy genes don't get passed on.

Now, the problems with this are readily apparent. The presumption that Nice Guys are owed sex for being Nice—i.e., not coercive—is itself coercive. It shifts the blame to women for overtly coercive behavior on the part of men. It counterfactually presumes that there are very few Nice Guys, when in fact it is hard to get away from guys who are so very loud about how Nice they are and how much it pains them to see women lavish sexual affection on Bad Boys who will take advantage of them, when they themselves can't get any. It also rests on the assumption, as one commenter put it, that women should be much like a video game or vending machine in that if you push the right combination of buttons sex should come out. It represents women, as Trinity says, as "something to be used, a 'pleasure' to be tasted"—in other words something that can be given as a reward for good behavior. And it fails to make the distinction between Nice behavior and acting on sincerely felt respect.

The problem is that this self-identity enshrines dishonest, manipulative behavior under a gloss of politeness as supremely moral—where its superlative morality rests entirely on being covertly rather than overtly coercive.

I should add that some of these Nice Guys are friends of mine. Some have outgrown it, some have not. Being a rapist is worse than being a Nice Guy. But what many people fail to see is that it's not a choice between being either overtly or covertly coercive. The better option is to not be coercive at all.
 
 
Ex
08:43 / 21.06.07
The 'Nice Guy' thing also boils down to the concept (I think) that women don't fancy Nice Guys. And all you need to do to get lady attention is to behave like a git.

I've been told this by a couple of chaps. Sometimes they'd been told they were 'nice' by women who didn't want to have sex with them, and they'd made the bizarre connection that if they were more of a git they would have had more of a chance - they'd been told 'You're nice BUT I don't want to have sex with you' and heard 'You're nice SO I don't want to have sex with you'.
The chaps in question leant more or less heavily and qwistfully towards two conclusions: that I should see them as a side-shoot of radical feminism because they didn't resort to being a git to get ladies, and that somehow I should balance up this cosmic injustice by doing them.

I know a few women who have told me explicitly that they don't fancy nice men (when I was just thinking it must be a collective male hallucination). After some discussion I think it would be more accurate to say that they didn't fancy men who they didn't fancy, who they then called 'nice' when they actually meant unchallenging / unstimulating / reminded them of a family member / just not hott from their perspective. Because (here comes the fantastic circular logic of sexism) 'nice' has become an acceptable (and apparently more polite) shorthand for 'unsexy'. Which just reinforces the idea that Bad Chaps are more intrinsically sexy.

I avoid saying 'nice' to mean anything other than 'nice' - partly because I do fancy nice people, but partly so as to avoid adding delusional fuel to a new generation of resentful, weird gits.
 
 
Ex
08:45 / 21.06.07
Cross-post with Zippy, there.
 
 
Lugue
09:06 / 21.06.07
And thanks. And thanks.

The suggestion that it is hard to get away from guys who are so very loud about how Nice they are and how much it pains them to see women lavish sexual affection on Bad Boys who will take advantage of them, when they themselves can't get any surprises me, though. This assumption of sex as owed, attributed to that sort of amicable behaviour, really is a surprise to me, moreso as something widespread, so I really appreciate the elucidations. I'm conveniently veering towards "my anti-social ways have made me sheltered enough to only draw Rational People" rather than "oh my god you git how blind are you?".
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
09:25 / 21.06.07
Sorry to pick this of all things out of Zippy's welcome rant, but at this:

2) women don't reward them with sex, so the Nice Guy genes don't get passed on.

I'm ashamed to say I laughed. Are they serious? No, silly question, of course they are. When Half-assed Darwinism gets tied to Why Life Sucks for Good Guys I don't think there's any way this can turn out well.
 
 
illmatic
09:26 / 21.06.07
they'd made the bizarre connection that if they were more of a git they would have had more of a chance

This kind of ties in with the horrible worldview to be found in manual of manipulative strategies The Game by Neill Strauss, which basically states you get sex with teh hott babes ('cos that's all that's important, right, and any man who denies it is lying to themselves) through being rude to the object of your affections - "negging" though petty insults and ignoring them. The payoff of this reverse psychology is supposed to be the women becomes so desperate for your attention and approval, that she sleeps with you.

There was a brief discussion of this in the "Stupid Questions" thread in The Temple, but I can't find it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:36 / 21.06.07
'Strue--I've seen guys use that technique. "Negs," negatives, little put-downs. Has to be quite finely judged though, with just enough nah-just-kidding in the mix to let the woman know that your shiny shiny approval is winnable. If you want to have sex with desperately insecure women who will cordially loathe themselves, and you, afterwards, I'm sure it's very effective.

It's been tried on me but because I'm not a proper woman, rather than pursuing the guy's shiny approval I just get hurt and upset and want to go home early. Big thankyou to all the guys who've wrecked a fun evening for me over the years! Hope the joyless coercive sex was worth it!

This kind of technique, by-the-by, is not generally seen as a violation of the Nice Guy code. Because it's just a bit of fun, eh?
 
 
illmatic
09:46 / 21.06.07
I was kind of thinking of it as the flipside of being a Nice Guy. I could imagine a Nice Guy labouring under the burden of his perceived saintliness, finally deciding he's had enough, and he's now going to Get His Own Back. I think the two sets of myths are m,utually reinforcing and rest on the same "payout" mentality/objectification with regard to woemn.
 
 
illmatic
09:58 / 21.06.07
I can certainly empathise with elements of the “nice guy” syndrome or rather the romantic frustration that causes it. When I was younger, I certainly found it difficult on a few occasions to pluck up the courage to tell the women that I was attracted to that I was, um, actually attracted to them. A combination of nerves and insecurity led to a lot of hanging around smiling. I suspect that some of that uncertainty and tension drives a lot of relationships, actually.

These guys seem to take that further and blame women for not recognising their self-evident virtues. Which is all kinds of flawed.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:58 / 21.06.07
Yeah, I can certainly see a self-proclaimed Nice Guy reaching for The Game out of desperation, dammit, because he's sick of being left on the shelf... eurrrgh.

Something else at work here is the perception that female rejection of a guy's sexual advances is in itself injurious to him. It's not framed as a neutral action, something a woman might need to perform for her own well-being, it's framed as positively aggressive, damaging and harmful. If you turn a chap down, the narrative seems to run, you'd better have a damn good reason, Missy. If you cannot provide a positive reason why you won't have sex with Mr Nice Guy, then you're rejecting him on a whim. Therefore you are cruel, and deserve to be penalised.

This is exacerbated by the perception that a woman turning a man down for sex doens't really mean "no," she means "ask me a different way in five minutes." Eventually you are place in a situation where you have to breach basic levels of courtesy in order to get your point across, at which point you are teh shreeking harpy and are fair game for anything the guy wants to say or do to you.

I've not read The Game but I've seen other how-to-get-chicks tracts that had a whole section on what to do if a woman rejects you. They generally include lots of hostile gendered put-downs, attacks on the woman's attractiveness, allusions to the risk of rape by other men if she goes home unaccompanied, and so on. One tract stated that the reader should take the precaution of always having a tampon in his top pocket whilst out on the prowl, so that he could whip it out and offer it to a reluctant woman with the suggestion that it simply must be her time of the month is she was being so mean.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:59 / 21.06.07
I certainly found it difficult on a few occasions to pluck up the courage to tell the women that I was attracted to that I was, um, actually attracted to them. A combination of nerves and insecurity led to a lot of hanging around smiling.

Well yeah, but dude--that's everyone, not just guys.
 
 
illmatic
10:03 / 21.06.07
Yeah, I was trying to imply that. I'd be surprised if there was anyone reading who hasn't been through that in some form or another.
 
 
illmatic
10:15 / 21.06.07
The assumption is I suppose, that that's an experience unique to men, some sort of preogative that nice guys are doomed to suffer.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:32 / 21.06.07
Ah, right--I get you.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
10:40 / 21.06.07
That may be understood by Nice Guy, but the response would surely come that the stakes are far higher for guys because women don't have to try so hard to get sex, they can just ask for it whenever they want... and there's no way that kind of thinking doesn't find itself heading towards misogyny central eventually.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:47 / 21.06.07
Astance which is all too common, and which conveniently ignores the fact that a woman who has sex anytime she wants faces heavy social sanctions, and simply doesn't acknowledge the possiblity of rejection of women by men. (I vividly recall an incident when I was about 19, when I somehow nerved myself up to ask out the guy I had a crush on. Not only was I rejected by him but he made sure that as many of our mutual aquaintances stopped speaking to me as he possibly could.)
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:30 / 21.06.07
When Half-assed Darwinism gets tied to Why Life Sucks for Good Guys I don't think there's any way this can turn out well.

I'd go further and say that when Darwinism is applied to ANYTHING that's not actually evolutionary theory it always turns out badly.
 
 
MattShepherd: I WEDDED KALI!
12:01 / 21.06.07
I will sheepishly say that I am a former "nice guy." Not a capital-N capital-G "Nice Guy" in the sense of "creepy manipulative feels-he-deserves-sex for-being-baseline-decent guy" -- I hope -- but in my angst-ridden younger years, I bought into the whole "girls are only attracted to jerks" mentality.

It's an appealing mindset, because it's both self-praising and blame-deferring; it's also reinforced for my generation by a lot of John Hughes movies. That guy has a lot to answer for.

Got older and realized that people are (often) attracted to other people who are self-confident and comfortable with themselves. But when you're young, lack self-confidence and are desperate to blame "them" for not being attracted to you rather than do any work on yourself, it's easy to map "jerk" onto the confident people that your crushes are dating.
 
 
Mysterious Transfer Student
12:22 / 21.06.07
That's a good insight since it does at least offer the possibility that men can and do grow out of such behaviour. Which is not to say it should not be confronted as and when it occurs.

Rereading earlier portions of this thread it seems as though Nice Guy Syndrome maps onto the kind of sensibility and behaviour discussed here quite easily. Creepy paternalism and feigning a kind and caring attitude do appear to fall quite close together on the old misogyny spectrum.
 
 
Ticker
13:03 / 21.06.07
off immediate topic....

I've been reading the current ban thread over in policy and while mulling over the issues of troll whispering/banhammering -I has a thought-.

It seems to me it might be helpful to provide people a framework to assist in productive critiques of feminism and specific nested theories floating around under the umbrella. For example upthread there is an article critiquing third wave pro sex feminism from a more second wave stance. Critiques and hard questions are vital to the process of self check and collective group check.

I'm wondering if giving examples of how to engage productively while asking hard questions might help sort the genuinely invested from the goofs. It seems to me from reading the list of recently banned (and I maybe completely wrong) they were all (except for the ones we believe may have been struggling with mental illness) operating at high levels of privilege and unfamiliar with how to unpack.

Male privilege and white privilege should be checked at the board's door.
Not that we have assigned reading but maybe we need to slap the knapsack lists down as soon as the reek of pontificating about less privileged folks appears? I know posters have busted out with these before.

White privilege: Unpacking the invisible knapsack
 
 
illmatic
13:15 / 21.06.07
Thanks for the XK, I hadn't seen that before.

unfamiliar with how to unpack

I think it's more the question of unwillingness, rather than unfamilarity. I mean, in the instance of Claris Dancer, there was plenty of material made available at the start of this thread, both links and posts, for him to familarise himself with. He didn't do so, he buggered off instead, to come back a year later saying he stands by hsi comments. Shadowsax was much the same - he tended to ignore most of the contents of a post if he couldn't refute it in some way straight away. I don't think we should be beholden to educate people who basically have both fingers in their ears.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:01 / 21.06.07
Nice Guy syndrom is a dangerous thing, and I would bet it's especially dangerous in college campusses and other institutions and jobs that require brain over brawn, perhaps?
 
 
petunia
15:38 / 21.06.07
Because all those brutes that work using their body are the nasty guys that get girls?

Or because people who use their brains a lot are prone to overanalyse situations and creative hero narratives for their failures?

I don't understand...
 
 
Ticker
17:43 / 21.06.07
well looking over the banning thread in policy it seems to me that if someone is unwilling to admit privilege when called on it (specifically spouting off about the behavior of others less privileged) that might be a solid Barbelith banning guideline.

I say this not because we are unclear on misogyny, homophobia, racism, holocaust denial as bannable offenses but rather to help sort out the reform worthy efforts from the non. If a problem poster is unwilling to admit privilege and the need to not comment on the experiences of less privileged people with a tone of authority, that unwillingness should be a clear signal to the rest of the community.

Unwillingness to examine privilege might be the triage guideline for cancelling compassionate intervention. If a poster is unwilling to consider they are not in a postion to speak with authority about other people's experiences then they are not salvageable.

what you think?
 
 
*
18:21 / 21.06.07
trampetunia, I read that as assuming a tendency for educated young people to feel entitled to more social approval than otherwise, and particularly for educated young men, having recently heard of feminism, to strive admirably to not be an obvious Bad Guy and to have more of a tendency to believe that makes them unique or rare and should be rewarded. That's been borne out by my experience as an educated young man, at any rate.
 
 
*
18:25 / 21.06.07
I would be wary of that, XK, for fear it could trigger oppression Olympics, with folks saying patently offensive things while paying lip service to privilege and then smokescreening by accusing others of not acknowledging their own privileges as, say, classist liberal elites or similar.
 
 
petunia
20:16 / 21.06.07
Yeah, i hadn't spotted that angle, zippy.

Sorry to Allecto for any snark in my previous post. The whole brain/brawn thing is somewhat of a trigger for me and i got a bit befuddled.

I'm still not convinced about the education-to-nice guy link but it may be my general lack of experience of the nice guy syndrome.

While i have numerous experience of the 'girls always go for the bad guys' thing (including my own youthful experiments in this genre of delusion), i've never seen it evolve into the next step; the feeling of entitlement to sexual favours for not being a bastard.

For this i am grateful.
 
  

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