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Feminism 101

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
10:36 / 04.03.06
Well, no - male-identified posters welcomed if they didn't dominate or derail, according to the abstract. However, if some male-identified posters feel entitled to post there, there's no real reason why _all_ male-identified posters shouldn't - after all, we're on their side - and therefore the thread will be derailed from a woman-oriented discussion pretty much ipso facto. It might be better, say, for male-identifying posters who want to talk about the implications of Babooshka's statement to do it elsewhere, like possibly here.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:01 / 04.03.06
Good point. I guess I was thinking of it as a female id'd only space for the reason you describe. I'm not sure that further discussions of Babooshka's post are going to be hugely productive, however.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:11 / 04.03.06
I just want to point out that I asked Flyboy to post there yesterday because I was roaring angry and was worried that I was going to say something stupid. He was the easiest person to ask to create space because I was talking to him via email at the time.

As long as it doesn't happen too often it's fine for the male-identified to post there, if it's too much someone will point it out anyway.
 
 
Ganesh
11:21 / 04.03.06
You aren't alone in those concerns. I thought that thread was a female id'd only space.

No, male too, if we don't derail or dominate. I posted a couple of times drunk, and it looked stupidly flippant in context, so I put my posts up for deletion. I posted again subsequent to Nobody's Girl, but that wasn't a White Knight thing so much as my wanting to defend myself as, I think, an implied 'dogpiler'.
 
 
Dead Megatron
11:24 / 04.03.06
Great, you go to sleep for a few hours and there's a whole page of new things to read about. Hyper-fast thread, let's go!


I want to come back a bit to the Harry Potter argument

That one of the few roles available to "successful" women/feminists is this Hermione Granger role of being a nay-sayer, a boundary placer, a "you can't do that! it's against the rules!" (Other than "bitch," "crazy bitch" or "SF, in dstress, ISO NS SKnight, pref. shng armr."). And that kinda sucks.

I'm not sure this is an accurate description of the character-typing in Rawlings books. As a writer, I have to say characters are NOT like real people: they have to fit a stereotype - or archetype - so that than can play a determinate role in the plot (and be thus easily indentified by readers). I HP, Hermione plays the "intelligent, but annoying" type, the "nerd", while Rony plays the somewhat dumb, but loyal friend", the comic-relief "sidekick". Those roles are extremely common in children's books, but they have little to do with gender. They could just as easily be inverted, with Rony being the "nerd" and Hermione the "sidekick" (although it's more usual for the sidekick to be of the same gender of the protagonist - Harry, in this case). But, if Hermione was "stupid, but loyal", wouldn't it be even more "offensive"? And there are other female characters that fit other achetypes: the Luna something (can't remember the name now) plays the "crazy one", which is a asexual archetype, and there's Rony younger sister, Gina, who dates Harry in book 6 and is quite the "tomboy", assertive without loosing feminility (the archetype name is quite revealing, since the girl is taking a role in yester times would be exclusively male, the "confrontationist". So, the role in itself is not exactly sexist, although the name given ti it is). She is succesful and feminist, and she's no "nay-sayer", she's a "boundary breaker", actually. Harry's decision to get away from her after he decides to go after you-know-who, "for her own protection", could be construed as a sexist attitude, but that would be wrong: Harry's decided to do that to everyone he knew, not just the girls...

In fact, since archetyping is kinda inevitable in adventure/fantasy books, which archetypes could a female character assume, without being diminished by it? I'd personally say "none", since archetyping is restrictive by definition. The same happens to male characters as well.


[oh, and as an aside, I don't think Dumbledore is simple the "benign authority", he's more like a "father figure" for Harry, who, being an orphan, lack one of his own. Hence, his protective, teaching, and yet somewhat distant and mysterious attitude. And events at the end of Book 6 is the happening which has forced HArry into adulthood. Very achetypical]
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
11:42 / 04.03.06
On the Womens Friendly Space thread, I was in two minds about creating a companion thread for non-female identifying posters to comment, I wasn't sure whether that would be making things worse.
 
 
Dead Megatron
11:45 / 04.03.06
I wouldn't say worse, but unnecessary, considering Barbelith (and this entire planet, for that matter) is "man-friendly" by default
 
 
Dead Megatron
12:03 / 04.03.06
This is actually from the women-firendly trhead, But I'm posting it here so as to not derail said thread (and it's about feminism too)

A female-identified poster said:

The other day I was describing a female friend of mine, and I caught myself saying 'she's really funny. You know, funny like boys'

This is a interesting point. I read in a magazine some time ago (have no links, sorry) that, while homour in males is considered "very attractive" by male-attracted people (i.e. straigh women and gay men), women who are funny tend to be seen by men as "just one of the guys", good to be friend with, but not "girlfriend material". The article state that that's so because humour is a sign of intelligence and "guys" (and I'm using this word in its worse possible meaning) like their "chicks" to be pretty and dumb.

I personally like funny women. Am I alone on this? Hope not
 
 
Aertho
12:39 / 04.03.06
Perhaps you should explain why you like funny women? Personal taste is great, but what qualities do comediennes have over comedians?

Funny like boys... Next time you hear something like that IRL, I'd stop the world and get them to unpack a statement like that. Out of obvious curiousity and subtle vindictiveness.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
12:46 / 04.03.06
Perhaps you should explain why you like funny women? Personal taste is great, but what qualities do comediennes have over comedians?
I think megatron means like, like wanna go on dates with like, not saying he doesn't like funny guys as much as funny women, but he dates women, so he's attracted like to women who are funny.
 
 
Aertho
12:49 / 04.03.06
I wouldn't say worse, but unnecessary, considering Barbelith (and this entire planet, for that matter) is "man-friendly" by default

I would think the opposite. Woman-Friendly, for expermintations' sake, ought to remain, or attempt to be a female-id'd posting location. Like a ladies' room. Without having men interject, I'd like to see what the women of Barbelith say about our community.

But men should also have a place for contributions in accordance with what they read in Women-Friendly, which is why having a men's room also in Policy makes sense. Each gender may read either, and cross-reference when necessary, ... I don't know. Experimentation is all I'm saying. I don't like hearing that this place I've gone to for years because it's fun and smart is painful for the other people who live here. I want to help, or come up with solutions.
 
 
Aertho
12:53 / 04.03.06
like wanna go on dates with like

That's great Jack.

DM, can you use his sarcasm and interpretation to further strain your words and meaning? Valuing gendered sources in arenas such as comedy is an important idea to dissect.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
12:54 / 04.03.06
But men should also have a place for contributions in accordance with what they read in Women-Friendly, which is why having a men's room also in Policy makes sense.
A thread to discuss the women's thread without maling it up makes sense, but are you also saying there should be a men only type thread where we deal with only a man's perspective? I don't think that's necessary, but again I'm not sure if that's what you meant.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
12:58 / 04.03.06
DM, can you use his sarcasm and interpretation to further strain your words and meaning?
I wasn't being sarcastic. I bolded like to try to emphasise it. I don't know if I can make it sound like I want it to just by typing. It was supposed to sound like...

"I like him.

Do you like like him?"

Where like is more of an attraction thingie.
 
 
Aertho
13:00 / 04.03.06
again I'm not sure if that's what you meant.

A men's room in response to what goes on in the ladies's room, where we can discuss criticisms and/or observations made in Woman-Friendly. Where we can say to Nobody's Girl that we aren't dogpilers or tell Babooshka to shut up. We hardly need a actual lockerroom to discuss male issues.
 
 
Aertho
13:03 / 04.03.06
Ah, Sorry Jack and DM. I misunderstood. Carry on.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
13:05 / 04.03.06
We hardly need a actual lockerroom to discuss male issues.
That's what I was thinking, but I didn't wanna sound like a jerk if that's what you were suggesting, which you weren't, so, uhm. Ok.

Good idea on the men response thread, where we can discuss the women only thread without manning up the women only thread.
 
 
Dead Megatron
13:22 / 04.03.06
Perhaps you should explain why you like funny women? Personal taste is great, but what qualities do comediennes have over comedians?

Actually, I like funny people in general (as I seriously dislike people with no sense of humour). When I said i like funny women, I meant to say that them being funny is not a turn-off for me, as is for some self-centered guys (self-centered in the sense they like "their" women to laught at their jokes, but not make jokes of their own). But it doesn't constitute a fetish or anything like that.

And I also like people who are intelligent too. Men, women and everything in between and beyond

I should have explained better
 
 
*
17:20 / 04.03.06
I wouldn't say worse, but unnecessary, considering Barbelith (and this entire planet, for that matter) is "man-friendly" by default

This is a good point, DM. But even though I cringe at the idea of going into that thread (and me being a man and all) I think it should be an interesting experiment. I'd like to see if it makes the dynamics of the lith's sexism plainer.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:07 / 04.03.06

Good idea on the men response thread, where we can discuss the women only thread without manning up the women only thread.


Hmmmm. Alternatively, we could actually try to let the female-identified posters discuss things with each other, without feeling that some mechanism has to be put in place to allow the menfolk to have input into that discussion. The idea that there should be a metathread where men can talk _about_ the posts in the female-friendly space thread - that is, obey the letter of the idea that it should be kept for female-oriented posters while also reenshrining the idea that men need to be able as a right to talk about whatever they feel like - seems a bit ... boy.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
20:12 / 04.03.06
Alternatively, we could actually try to let the female-identified posters discuss things with each other, without feeling that some mechanism has to be put in place to allow the menfolk to have input into that discussion.
But there's already so much guy response in that thread already, and I think guys are just gonna start with "Is it ok if I post here? Right, then..." and post there anyway, which is why I thought the other thread would be good.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:17 / 04.03.06
I'm just a bit embarrassed by that entire line of reasoning. Men will not be able to control themselves, and as such concessions have to be made which basically remove the point of having a thread in which female-identifting posters can talk without male interference. Maybe it would be better if men just did control themselves, and moderators helped them if necessary.
 
 
iconoplast
21:32 / 04.03.06
I don't get it. I mean, is it that hard to not comment on a thread?

I think that the presence of a parallel thread were males are discussing the female-only discussion makes sort of a mockery of the idea of creating a safe space.

But then again, a thread created for female-identified posters being derailed into a Tales of the Almighty Winky fest is probably worse.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:09 / 04.03.06
I don't think I need a "male meta-response to female response" thread, and haven't used the "male response" thread in that fashion, but I do want to have a seperate space to actually interact with the women about the issues. Better to do that here?
 
 
sleazenation
22:47 / 04.03.06
I think that the presence of a parallel thread were males are discussing the female-only discussion makes sort of a mockery of the idea of creating a safe space.

So, is barbelith about making 'safe spaces'?
 
 
iconoplast
22:55 / 04.03.06
"A thread primarily for female-identifying posters to share perceptions and discuss any experiences of oppressive unchallenged behaviour on the 'Lith. Male and other non-female identifying posters may post on this thread but are respectfully requested to make an effort not derail or dominate the discussion. " Sounded like a safe space to me.

I don't have the same experiences with self-labelled Safe Spaces as you seem o, sleaze, so I was just sort of throwing the term around lightly. But, in the other thread, I compared the link you posted to the Barbelith guidelines. And, if that link's the definition, then I think we are engaged in trying to create a safe space here.

I think the question of safe for and from whom or what might be an interesting one to ask.
 
 
sleazenation
23:10 / 04.03.06
I'm kind of glad that you have replied in the policy thread on what barbelith should be, 'cause I really don't want to be responsible for adding to any derailing of this thread... I intend to reply more fully over there...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:18 / 04.03.06
So, is barbelith about making 'safe spaces'?

Well, yes, to an extent. For example, it is already a safe space where people can expect not to encounter sustained homophobic abuse, or have to read claims that the Holocaust did not happen, to take two recent examples of behaviour leading to banning. On the other hand, it is not at present a safe space where racism or misogyny are not (officially) tolerated. There are arguments to be had about what sort of safe space it should be and what sort of safe space it is. What I would, personally, like to see is Barbelith as an unsafe space - a space in which one cannot safely be an idiot, a racist, a homophobe, a misogynist. This may seem a bit odd, but take for example Shadowsax's regular complaints that he is suffering insults from moderators - he is essentially demanding that Barbelith should be a safe space for his issues. In those terms, the Venn diagram approach seems sensible and useful.

On the specific thread in the Policy - well, I don't think that is a safe space. I think it's a specific thread which has had a specific set of conditions applied to it - rather like the non-debate threads in the Head Shop. This has been done to try to create a greater sense of freedom for female-identifying posters to come forward and talk. It's not really a safe space so much as a _specific_ space. Barbelith in general is carrying along quite happily in the other x thousand threads available for addition.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
23:20 / 04.03.06
Curious to hear from Tabitha, Nina, or Seaglass, re: safe spaces for women? My only real experience is with university women's centres, and generally as "standing in the hallway chatting with people I know going in/out" -- obviously. (actually, my partner was once actually invited in to the space; how do you all feel about that happening -- would you feel comfortable inviting men into your space, or if others did it around you?)
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
23:23 / 04.03.06
Missed the "and other female-ids" after Sea Glass.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
13:23 / 05.03.06
no wonder my ears were burning!

if anyone's interested: I 'engaged' with nina initially - i think i was the first to respond on the poly thread - then posted a genuine 'thanks for your thoughts' line, left it at that because nina's observations did not fire my imagination enough to deliver any other kind of response.

Then, as a result of the subtle manouvering by smoothly weaving (whose very name, I must confess, leaves my tough glasgow stomach feeling rather queasy), I responded in kind - to pettiness I perceived to be directed my way. In fact smoothly seemed to be actively baiting (a hangover from another thread if I remember correctly - smoothly's problem, not mine)

nina's request for an apology was dismissed because of her wilful misprepresentation of my thoughts (my impression was she was being selective in her analysis of my own commentary on the poly film and attempting to portray me as monolithic in my appreciation of relationships. you see I had given good reasons for my interpretation of the play already but nina chose to ignore them - you'll have to ask her why)

finally, if you read the thread in question, you'll see that the majority of my posts were directly about the content of the poly film and my contributions added into an interesting discussion on the dam 'ting.

'bleat', 'huff', 'bitch to papers' - I would have used these if the character focused upon was male. get real. there's no problem there.

if anything I'd say aggression was directed towards me with nina and Smoothly more concerned in trying to uncover some lumpen truth about my personality rather than engage with my ideas about the play.

once again, happy to be the source of much of the utterly absurd content generated in this laughably sensitive place.

this place should lose the name barbelith by the way. It's being used in vain these days.

ps. And I stil think Friends and Crocodiles was shite.

pps. gender doesn't come into it when I 'engage' online. as far as I'm concerned, you're all a bunch of its.

happy 5th march everyone.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:45 / 05.03.06
this place should lose the name barbelith by the way. It's being used in vain these days.

We have let Grant Morrison down. Again.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:07 / 05.03.06
[Smoothly Weaving's] very name, I must confess, leaves my tough glasgow stomach feeling rather queasy

Out of curiosity...why?
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
15:21 / 05.03.06
thanks for sharing your considered thoughts haus.
 
 
HCE
15:41 / 05.03.06
Yawnnui, if you are looking for places online that are more insensitive, I will be happy to offer some suggestions.
 
  

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