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Feminism 101

 
  

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Olulabelle
16:01 / 02.03.06
Kit Kat Club I know the thread you are referencing and I have just read it again. It's an excellent example of what we are talking about. Nina writes a long post in response to a poster, and the reply is, "thanks for sharing your considered thoughts nina."

It goes on. When Nina asks for an apology she is told "nina: get a grip - before you embarrass yourself further." She's basically dismissed out of hand.

Apart from personal comments about posters and general treatment of the female poster in the thread, the thread is also good for a few examples about females not on the board. It has comments about a female character on television being "bleaty" and "huffy offy." These are terms used by some men about women, but not by women about women, or in fact by women about men!

Particularly "bleaty".

I'll let Nina link to it because it's really up to her.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:13 / 02.03.06
I probably should have had words with the waiter.

Well, that's an interesting thing... you didn't get to understand why he was serving you badly (and, indeed), probably would never have got an answer - it's likely he wouldn't have been able to articulate it, even if willing). he didn't get to understand why you undertipped him. Perhaps there could have been a moment of explanation, understanding and reconciliation, which would have ended with him understanding himself better and being $10 richer, but was anyone obligated to trigger that event?

It's tricky.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
16:22 / 02.03.06
Alas, Mordant;

First of all apologies for the tone of that post re: the survey, which was unnecessarily sarcy.

I suppose what I was trying to get at was just the question of how reliable the results of a survey like this, about such a serious issue, can ever actually be. I mean how was it conducted? Did the researchers just approach their subjects on the street and ask them outright about their opinions on non-consensual sex? If so, and there doesn't seem to be anything in the link to suggest otherwise, and given the demographic targeted, does it seem entirely beyond the realm of possibility that the results of the survey might have come out a little skewed?

I struggle with the idea that anyone, let alone the average male age 16-24, is going to engage seriously with a researcher on this matter under those circumstances. It's not as if it was breakfast cereal they were being asked about, after all. Really, imagine being asked about this type of (appalling) thing in a shopping centre, on the college quad or wherever - how on earth are you supposed to respond? If you actually were in the business of dealing out random sexual abuse, would you honestly be inclined to talk about it?

All of which is by way of saying that the research in the survey quoted seems a bit suspect - that's really all that I meant.
 
 
matthew.
16:23 / 02.03.06
I think in that particular case [Nina versus blank], it was the poster being annoying. Ze had nothing but dismissive remarks for a good portion of the other posters. It's too bad that ze seemed most dismissive of Nina and refused to post an apology. It strikes me that this poster could be so... callous.

Are there other examples?
 
 
Spaniel
16:24 / 02.03.06
I think we should be a little cautious when looking at the thread in question, Lula, because Yawn has a history of snarkiness and snipery, and it's quite possible to read his responses to Nina as more of the same (especially in the light of some of his snarky responses to Smoothly in the same thread).
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
16:29 / 02.03.06
In North America undertipping is considered by a majority to be the equivalent to short-paying any other bill.

Now if for instance you shorted a cashier at a clothes shop then I doubt you could imagine where they wouldn't call you on it. Admittedly you wouldn't be able to say that whilst the trousers are OK, they aren't ideal so you don't want to pay full whack. However, the correlation stands, which is why I called alas on the 10% which has never and will never be shorting a waiter on their service. They may as well be thinking that either they can get away with shoddy service or, as "women don't tip" she and her friend were being generous.

However, to answer Haus's scenario, the obligation to short the tip is on the buyer, the obligation to question it and justify is very much on the waiting staff. if the justification is suitable then the obligation returns to the buyer to pony up.
 
 
Quantum
16:32 / 02.03.06
I am feeling a little attacked all over again on that topic, and once again feeling the need to back down. That alone indicates a possible problem, I think. Ibis

2nd that. That's the problem right there, other people might not feel they are being misogynist or aggressive, but if you're feeling attacked then aren't YOU the final arbiter?

If I'm making jokes about blondes and there's a blonde person present, don't they define what's offensive, whether or not I intended offense or am blonde myself or married to a lovely blonde? I mean, some of my best friends are blondes and lots of clever people are blonde but in general, y'know, they're a bit dappy eh?
 
 
Olulabelle
16:45 / 02.03.06
Regarding the Nina/Yawn example, part of the issue for me is the disregarding of Nina's long post. Then there is all the conversation going on around the snarkiness but no support for Nina at all. It's not just Yawn I am referring to, it's that all the other people in the thread looked a bit like they just couldn't hear what was happening.

Then there is the terminology.

I don't particularly agree that just because a poster has a history of snarkiness that makes something they've posted a bad example.
 
 
alas
17:05 / 02.03.06
ibis--a page (or more, by now? "Jane, stop this crazy thing!!!") ago I am feeling a little attacked all over again on that topic, and once again feeling the need to back down. That alone indicates a possible problem, I think.

I agree that this is a problem, and I'm not sure what to do except to say that, first, We do need to remember to give both suppport for the emotional reality of any problem, something that women are traditionally expected to give but not receive, AS WELL AS providing ideas about how someone who's facing a quandry may be helped by reframing the discussion on new lines. And, second, thanks for digging out that old thread; it's been helpful and grounding.

Sometimes when we are deeply engaged with a certain kind of work (and I really am including myself in this 'us')--we're doing say feminist or anti-racist or anti-class work, we can come into a discussion like an avenging angel. Sometimes that desire to be the avenging agent of godliness becomes predominant, for me, over solving the problem. Its like we're in a competition to see who can be "the least racist white person around," for instance. Mostly I have no time for the PC Hell argument, but I know that self-righteousness is a very attractive drug, for me.

But LET ME BE VERY CLEAR: this is not to say that clear expressions of anger about a subject are wrong--taken to an extreme my argument might seem to leave the impression that the only "good" way of responding to an injustice is through some calm "professional," discretely-lowered-voice route.

Because there's all kinds of issues around that--women are readily labeled "shrill"; blacks in the US are often seen as "loud, complaining," gays as "whining," and working class people as one step above grammatically-challenged cave-dwellers, just to name a few problematic stereotypes that are used to try to enforce silence on people who are pointing out problems in the system. And if you inhabit more than one category at once, as most of us do, it can be really hard; double binds abound.

Identity is always implicated in public discussions, first off, both for those who are challenging the status quo and those who want to maintain the status quo. But identity is always more visible for the challengers than it is for those who wish to maintain the status quo.

So, truly, I think I can only judge with any certainty the way this issue works inside me. I know that sometimes my own indignation begins to tip some internal scale. It begins to be more about how I want to be perceived (e.g., "less racist than thou") than about actually trying to respond to a problem and help fix it. And I suspect that, when a painful personal issue is being brought up, that is particularly harmful.

And, as I mentioned, and I think this is one core issue for me: all this is entangled with expectations of "womanly sympathy" and masculine "certainty." Expectations for empathy are entangled with gender issues: traditionally women are under more pressure to be empathetic to men's struggles than vise versa. Personally, I feel this pressure every day of my life, I see it at work in my classrooms, and I think I'm seeing it, for example, in the "sexual coercion" thread.
 
 
matthew.
17:10 / 02.03.06
Boboss-

But Yawn refused to apologize to Nina. He dealt with Smoothly on the basis of what Smoothly was saying. He listened to Smoothly and engaged with Smoothly's opinion. He refused to listen to Nina and refused to engage with her posts.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:18 / 02.03.06
alas- a few, quick-trigger male-identified posters (ones with great wives! even!)

Was this aimed at me? Because if it was, I think you've completely misunderstood what I was saying. I was merely pointing out assumptions made by another, and trying to show that you can't just assume that because a=b in case y, a necessarily has to equal b in case x, and to assume that is to damage your understanding of both x and y.

If not, then I apologise for my misunderstanding.
 
 
Sekhmet
17:29 / 02.03.06
Stoatie, I think alas was referring to Qwik. (?)
 
 
Spaniel
17:31 / 02.03.06
Lula, I agree entirely that just because a poster has a history of snarkiness it doesn't mean that a given instance should not be read as sexism or misogyny, but I also think that we would be foolish to ignore past form.

The things is, I'm really not sure Yawn's initial comment to Nina was dismissive. In fact, I think it's quite possible that he meant what he said ("thank you for sharing your considered thoughts"), despite his later snarkiness. Particularly given the fact that up until that point little of substance had actually been contributed.

Secondly, I think the people that Yawn was engaging with were the people that were arguing with him, which Nina really wasn't doing. Yawn's an argumentative so and so and tends to focus pretty narrowly on the posts of those that are most forcefully disagreeing with him (in this instance Smoothly, and to some degree myself). Not only that, but some of Yawn's most dismissive comments were reserved for Smoothly, for example:

a bit crap really, smoothly. stick to being an arse instead.

that, you are good at.


Lula, I think perhaps you would have a stronger argument if you focussed on Yawn's use of language when discussing the Lizzie character.
 
 
Spaniel
17:43 / 02.03.06
Actually, strike *some* of that. Yawn did become very dismissive further down. Whether that was the result of a sexist or misogynistic attitude, Yawn's past history with Nina, Yawn's take on Nina as an individual, or simply a response to Nina's short and to the point posts (in the thread), or some combination of the above is for the mind readers to work out.

For the record, I didn't support Nina because Nina has a track record of being able to look after herself. In retrospect,a nd in light of the fact that Yawn and I get on, perhaps I should have said something.
 
 
Spaniel
17:48 / 02.03.06
I did think he was being an arse and it was annoying me.
 
 
Olulabelle
17:50 / 02.03.06
I most certainly do not want a 'stronger argument' for it. It's here as an example of horrible behaviour towards women from a board member and that is all. I don't want to debate whether it is or isn't, because quite frankly if you think that sort of behaviour is OK then there's no point having this conversation at all.

Equally as important is the fact that I have only referred to it because two other female posters have already expressed an opinion on it - Nina, (involved) and Kit Kat Club. So publically for at least three females it is useful as an example.

I don't believe I said that Yawn's first reply to Nina was derogatory, my issue with that comment is that he blatantly ignored her. See Mathesis upthread:

But Yawn refused to apologize to Nina. He dealt with Smoothly on the basis of what Smoothly was saying. He listened to Smoothly and engaged with Smoothly's opinion. He refused to listen to Nina and refused to engage with her posts.

Problems with how women are treated within this thread:

a/Yawn's refusal to interact with Nina, followed by blatant abuse.
b/Refusal to acknowledge that as abusive behaviour by all the other (male) posters in the thread.
c/ Language used to describe the female on TV. Bleat is like whinge, nag, whinny, witter. It means this person's comment is invalid, it's just noise.
 
 
Olulabelle
17:59 / 02.03.06
Boboss I've just seen your other posts, thank you for clarifying that for me.

One thing:

For the record, I didn't support Nina because Nina has a track record of being able to look after herself. In retrospect,a nd in light of the fact that Yawn and I get on, perhaps I should have said something.

The point is not that Nina needed 'looking after', or 'sticking up' for. Someone other than Nina should/could have registered their own personal dissent for that kind of posting. Yet no-one did.
 
 
iconoplast
18:00 / 02.03.06
I'd like to ask a related question which hasn't really come up, though (I think) it sort of haunts all discussions of femininity. Namely, the issue of hormones and how to engage it.

So - when I'm talking to someone who is in a psychological state which I consider to be not their normal state, I don't take what they are saying as seriously as when I judge them to be normal.(*) Which, if they're a drunk or stoned friend, a tired or hungry child, or even just someone who is talking about something totally overwhelming, seems to be okay. I just think, "I wonder if they'll feel like this once they're back to normal."

However (and wow am I frightened to be asking this.), the women in my life are a different case. They will occasionally apologize for being hormonal. Sometimes I'll just guess that they're feeling hormonal(**) and try to not be offended/hurt by what she said, or try to maybe take it a bit easier on them. But I feel really, really weird doing this.

Because it boils down to me choosing one aspect of them (not very coincidentally, the aspect I find easiest to identify as closest to how I think of myself), and deciding that unless I feel they are speaking from such a place, I can at least partially discount what they're saying.

My girlfriend laughed when I was talking about the whole feminism as right-to-be-different thing, and said something like, 'You just remember this. I have a right to be hormonal'. Because, well, of course she fucking has a right to be hormonal, it's who she is. I don't know... I don't think I really have a point here, or know what (exactly) my question is, other than... how (if it does) does the issue of hormones and (percieved) changes in cognitive faculties impact this discussion?

(1) I'm deliberately using judge b/c I think this issue involves a lot of judging, specifically men judging women's emotional/cognitive states

(2) Interesting - I have no idea what 'being hormonal' feels like. So this guessing is a pretty strange thing.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
18:02 / 02.03.06
I think one of the things that struck me most about that thread when I read it (if that is I am recalling it correctly - I may be thinking of another thread involving the same posters) was yawn's comment that Nina was only saying what another poster told her to - in effect, that she didn't have any opinions of her own - which I thought was TOtally outrageous.
 
 
HCE
18:10 / 02.03.06
Men don't have hormone cycles? That's odd, isn't it.
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
18:14 / 02.03.06
OK, I'll bite - W. T. F.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:23 / 02.03.06
Well, quite. I think that's a bit of a tender trap, personally. Maybe it's more that men tend to assume that they are always a perfectly rational, detached observer, whereas women, because they often have to be aware of how their hormones are working for various reasons, are better able to acknowledge that they might be being affected by it.
 
 
iconoplast
18:26 / 02.03.06
To be clear - just because I believe something doesn't mean I think it's right. While this thread's expressed purpose is to discuss feminism and cases of mysogyny on barbelith, I've found it to be nicely challenging in a 'are you sure you want to go on believing and acting that way?' way.

I don't know if men have hormone cycles. If I have experienced them, I have described them as something else, and haven't twigged to their cyclical nature. But whether or not men have hormone cycles, I was asking if and how hormone cycles impact discussions of feminism, in the right-to-be-different sense.

Basically, it seems a bit patronizing to discount what adds up to pretty much a quarter of someone else's life because Ihave decided she's 'hormonal', when I'm not really sure what she means when she uses that word. I don't know. I may be way off base here and just not even formulating this question in the right terms. It's just a question, and if it's got some weird assumptions which are way wrong (I think it very well may), I'd be interested to hear what they are.
 
 
Dead Megatron
18:26 / 02.03.06
Men are hormonal as well. It's just that our hormone rates don't vary that much over the month and years, we don't usually notice the difference.

but, believe me, every time we guys feel like going "oogah,oogah" on people, we're being hormonal.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:32 / 02.03.06
Men have hormonal cycles that effect their moods just like women do, the only difference is that women get pain at the same time of the month as their mood drops. This is because their muscles are contracting in order to push blood out.

As to the Poliakoff thread- yawn made a series of assumptions : that my posts were patronising rather than inquisitive, that I was somehow displaying prejudice. I don't know why he chose to ignore everything that I said, it could be because I'm female, it might be a personal issue that he doesn't care to explain to me. His response was disproportionate. I would have liked some support in the thread, I don't know why people assume that I particularly want to fight all the time. Perhaps my posting style is more aggressive than I perceive it to be. The truth is that when I display no aggression at all I get treated exactly as I was by Yawn in that thread and this means that I sometimes have to provoke a reaction elsewhere. I try to be careful but I think assumptions are also made about me because I don't have a problem with other people's aggression.

I frankly gave up trying to employ gentleness a few months after I entered the board and no one ever responded to anything I said.
 
 
HCE
18:34 / 02.03.06
I'm serious -- surely men have hormones in their bodies, no? These hormones aren't released at a constant rate, are they? I could be wrong, but it seems an odd notion that there wouldn't be some kind of cycle or pattern to it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:34 / 02.03.06
In fact, men seem to have something like a 25-day hormonal cycle. I doubt that the mood changes are as dramatic as they are in some women, but they do occur. I think one reson that men are less aware of this is that they don't have the very obvious 'marker' that women do.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
18:35 / 02.03.06
It’s an odd synchronicity- I’ve actually been having an extra-good long think about issues of equality and gender politics for the last couple of weeks- since Betty Friedan died, really- and then this thread was created. I’ve been watching it with quite some interest for the past several days, but I wanted to wait until I had something worthwhile to add before posting.

I hate to pick on people after they have already apologized, but matt and eddie thirteen’s reactions to Celane’s earliest post on this thread seem to be the perfect proof of exactly what Celane was talking about. Honestly, I hadn’t noticed (which is clearly my own fault) much evidence of what she referred to with ”I pop up, lurk through the temple, start reading something else, pop into Women Aren't People (tm) rhetoric, and leave hurriedly”. Low and behold! My question of “what is she talking about?” was unfortunately immediately answered, which troubles me.

I think a lot of it is unintentional. I really hope it is, actually. But knee-jerk responses to something often tell you more about someone than what they do when they have plenty of time to think about it. I think a lot of this is a larger problem inherent in our society, as others have pointed out. And I don’t think either matt or eddie had any intention to offend celane or anyone else. But, as I read once, what we intend to do and what we actually do are rarely the same. The dismay, the initial disbelief of what a relatively new poster had noticed in a short time on Barbelith, showed that what said poster had noticed was probably there. I’d like to live in a world where misogynism doesn’t exist too, but to initially take the stance of “it can’t happen here” is rather shallow.

And I don’t think that that shallow belief is what is intellectually believed here. This thread clearly proves to any nay sayers that it is present. But I think it’s important to be especially wary and vigilante over these unintentional statements. Just because you don’t think what you said is sexist or racest or whatever, doesn’t mean it isn’t that to someone else. I know if I said something offensive around here, I’d want someone to call me on it. Because if they didn’t, how would I know I’d been a bit of a prick? I know I hardly ever reread anything I write, unless someone brings up a particular event. If I say “man, I really hate white people” and someone says “Spyder, what’s up with that?” I’m going to (ideally) reread what I said and have a think about it. I won’t like being called on it, but that doesn’t mean I wasn’t wrong to say it. All in all, I think iconoplast hits the point perfectly:
It's odd. If I hit someone inadvertently with the paper ball I was trying to get in the trash, I say I'm sorry. But if I inadvertently injure someone with my speech, I'm much more tempted to say that they've no right to be so angry as I didn't mean it that way
This kind of thinking is probably true for most of us. What we need to do is to remember that it’s not much different from that paper ball- injury is injury. If someone says “Poster X, I think you might be being a bit misogynistic there” you need to stop and think about why they might say that, and apologize. Just because you didn’t mean to doesn’t mean you didn’t.

Again, I’m really glad this thread is getting so much attention. Other than the Father’s 4 Justice thread, I hadn’t seen any of this stuff going on, and I myself clearly need to pay better attention to it.

And many thanks to Nina, who, for me at least, remains one of my favorite barbe-mates for so many reasons. *Huggles*
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:37 / 02.03.06
I try to be kind and honest, state my opinion and ask questions of people. When I am met by a wall I respond to that with anger as the majority of people do. Often I am accused of hysteria when responding in that way, that accusation is entirely based on my gender and thus usually brings on more anger. Pretending not to be angry would be dishonest so I don't do it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:38 / 02.03.06
Basically, it seems a bit patronizing to discount what adds up to pretty much a quarter of someone else's life because Ihave decided she's 'hormonal', when I'm not really sure what she means when she uses that word.

Yes. Well, I think, and I'm speaking as somebody who largely identifies as male, that you're bang on the money there. I'd go so far as to say that if you discount what adds up to a quarter of someone else's life because you have decided that she is hormonal, you would be not only patronising but also psychotic. Especially if you were basing this on your observation of her behaviour rather than, say, anything she has said. That's the sort of path that leads to suffragettes being accused of having wandering wombs.

However, I would want to ask whether you also discount whatever anyone says or does if they tell you that they have, say, not had a very good night's sleep. That's a physiological condition with implications for how they think and emote - you might take their tiredness into account, say if they were a bit more impatient than usual - but surely you wouldn't write off what they said as the ravings of some other identity without relevance or connection?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:39 / 02.03.06
(Thanks Spyder.)
 
 
Quantum
18:41 / 02.03.06
Slight aside/parallel track/diversion, as a male feminist I find myself in the patronising situation of sticking up for women out of chivalry. Catch 22 in a way, as I can't *not* support equality for the sexes (it's obviously right) but if I jump in to defend someone female from attack, am I not implicitly assuming they can't defend themselves? Doesn't that fit neatly into the white-knight-on-a-galloping-charger-rescuing-the-damsel-in-distress patriarchist assumptions and insult women?

I don't really care TBH, I'll continue to oppose oppressionism (I just made that word up) despite being a priveleged minority, AND I won't feel guilty about my own identity and background, AND I don't care if it seems hypocritical, patronising or self-righteous, I'm going to continue supporting people despite my secretly patriarchial motivations and my necessarily flawed understanding of their position and needs.

(I am fighting the urge to jump in the Policy women's thread, so I put this here)
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
18:46 / 02.03.06
I'm serious -- surely men have hormones in their bodies, no? These hormones aren't released at a constant rate, are they? I could be wrong, but it seems an odd notion that there wouldn't be some kind of cycle or pattern to it.

I get that bit, I just didn't grasp how you had managed to extract that from iconoplast's post. He was explaining that he didn't know what "being hormonal" felt like, which is a womanly condition not strictly related to hormonal cycles at all.
 
 
iconoplast
18:55 / 02.03.06
However, I would want to ask whether you also discount whatever anyone says or does if they tell you that they have, say, not had a very good night's sleep

That seems like a good example. Because, well, yeah. I do. In the sense that, if I know someone's short on sleep, I expect their reactions to dissapointment and/or frustration to be disproportionately magnified. It not so much a 'La la la I can't hear you since you're slightly more likely to be cranky' as it is a 'You probably don't really mean that the way it sounds.'

Essentially, I know what tiredness is and how it feels and how it colors my reactions. When someone is tired, I can sort of guess at the exchange rate of 'reactions when tired', translated to 'reactions when not tired'.

But it's easy to say 'when I'm tired, my judgement is impaired'. And that's where the analogy breaks down, and where my question is focused. I'm not comfortable saying 'my girlfriend's judgement is impaired one out of every four weeks of her life until meonpause, at which point it gets totally impaired for quie some time, before finally it gets back to being normal.'

Certainly, when she has said she is feeling hormonal, I tend to try a similar level of exchange-rate translation in my head.

..but even that level of discounting troubles me, because I think it comes from that self-identification you were talking about where I on some squicky level have been taught to believe myself to be a supremely rational detatched observer, while she, as a woman, has a wandering uterus.

Which, yeah. Isn't the part of me that I try to base my actions on. See - that's the thing. I experience her being hormonal the same way I experience her being over tired. But I'm worried that my equating the two states might be total wrongheadedness.
 
 
*
18:55 / 02.03.06
On the hormonal issue—

Hormonal fluctuations certainly do affect both men and women. Being a person who had one kind and now has another, I've experienced how they are different for me. But just as a man cannot be freed from responsibility for snapping at someone or even getting violent because of "excess testosterone" (and it's actually usually low testosterone which causes this behavior, IIRC... I'll look for that study), what women say or do in the midst of their own hormonal fluctuations is something they are similarly responsible for.

Haus makes a very good point. You make about as much allowance as you would make if a guy friend tells you that they didn't get any sleep or have a hangover. Physical processes which have an affect on mood, and which people are generally aware of. At least, women are taught to be aware of their hormone fluctuations (and they have more obvious outward signs). Men whose hormone fluctuations are not controlled by injections are generally not. If men are being moody, angry, or depressive, they generally accept that they have reason to be, and this is also usually taken for granted by the other men around them in the absence of evidence to the contrary.
 
  

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