BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Underground > Conversation >

Feminism 101

  
  

Page: 1 ... 23456(7)89101112... 34

 
 
Dead Megatron
17:09 / 01.03.06
I realise that now. It was a mistake on my part. I have (really) personal issues on that particular subject and I completely lost my objectivity. For the third time, I'm sorry for offending alas that way. I'm sure she means well and it's obvious she knows infinetely more about the subject than I do.

But, here's a very stupid question: if a woman feels displeasure with any given sexual practice with her male partner, but fails to express that in any way at all, does it constitute rape? And, who's fault is that it took place? The man's? The woman's? Society's?
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
17:10 / 01.03.06
That matter is being discussed in this thread here and is a far better place for it than here.
 
 
Dead Megatron
17:19 / 01.03.06
ok, thanks, i'll look it up
 
 
■
17:31 / 01.03.06
Oh, lordy. I've been staying out of this but I need to drop in and say that while DM, people have repeatedly said in this thread that the idea that [some feminists think that] all penetrative sex is rape/demeaning to women is false. is true DM, people have repeatedly said in this thread that the idea that all penetrative sex is rape/demeaning to women is false. Is not.
We've had a large wedge of "how can you ask that?", a smidgen of "if you have to ask there's a chance you are on dodgy ground" and a pinch of "no-one has ever said that".
As far as I can see no-one has ever come out and said: "No, it isn't true and here's why it's wrong to ask." In simple terms.

Would anyone mind if I broke down for DM what I think his problem is?
1) No, it is not true that all penetrative sex is demeaning.
(Although all sex has the possibility of being demeaning to both parties - I think this bit is being addressed in another thread.)
2) When you ask this question it means you've not done one of a few simple bits of reasoning:
i) Women do openly discuss sex and say that they enjoy it. Unless they are all lying (important, hold that thought) many women do not find all sex demeaning. So you didn't need to ask.
ii) To assume that a large class of women are systematically lying is the sort of misogynist trap that it is easy for us to fall into when we need someone to blame (see Dave Sim). IT IS ALSO FALSE, and to base any argument on that is going to get you jumped on.
iii) To ask an individual woman to speak for all women (despite what Chaka Khan might say) is sexist. Just as asking "Do all you black guys...?" is racist. It denies the identity of the person you're asking the question of and also the individuality of the other members of the gender/class/race included in the question.
3) You damn well knew Haus, Nina, Flyboy and alas and everyone else was waiting for you to step out of line. While there are forums where it might be acceptable to challenge them, it's usually a bad idea unless you REALLY know what you're talking about.

I have problems with the way things are dealt with on the Barb in many cases, but I think the fact you didn't step back and think through the assumptions behind the conjecture means you need to learn to slice things up a bit better before posting. Look before you leap, and all that.
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
18:55 / 01.03.06
Sorry I'm so late to this thread, but bizarrely enough I suffered an assault last Friday - a very disempowering incident for anyone.

Thankyou Nina for raising this, Alas, GGM, Ibis, flyboy, ganesh, and so many others for saying so many things that I agree with. And to Celane for really getting to the heart of things which are so often hard to articulate. This really matters to me.

My feminism* is, largely, along the Butler lines, that of an end to gender. I believe that woman and man are such deeply flawed categories that they should be dismissed rather than reimagined or reconstructed. Or equalised - but this is a far off utopia. In the meantime we fight to address imbalance.

I think that the misogyny which is evident too often on Barbelith is just symptomatic of a broader re-emergence of 'bad-woman' politics in society. Open a paper - birth rates down, destroying our chance for a good pension; societal upheaval resulting from women no longer knowing our place.

Why are women driving feminism when it is the politics of equality? To me, it' s because we are historically, collectively a group who have been so oppressed for so long that we've started to get our shit together. Some important battles have been fought. Born a woman, you know what you've got to face and thanks to the courage and hard work of others, a movement has been formed to help you find the path to making a difference. I am proud of that work and of the path that has been laid for me. The work is still there to be done, and sometimes, like now, it seems like things are sliding back a bit. But feminism is a fight for everyone - that's what I honestly believe.

An end to the idea that something so simplistic as gender could possibly be a way of understanding the complexity of the world; a battle fought by a great number of people whose lives have been belittled and demeaned by this definition. When you know that assumptions have been made about you on the basis of your gender from the moment you were born, but to know that people have gone before you knocking down those assumptions down and fighting to free you from them. That's feminism. It fucking rocks. It makes me proud. And long may it prosper.

What can be done to combat misogyny on the board? Threads like this go a long way. Constant vigilance, of the kind that we see practiced against the other -isms. A pro-actively female poster attracting board policy? I'm not sure how that works. Women are people - their interests as diverse as men's *gasp*. As a space I find Barbelith laudably rigorous, as often as possibly gender-neutral, and welcoming. I'd be interested in hearing how people think this might be pursued.


*In case any doubt remains amongst some posters, there are many feminisms and mine may not be the feminism of others.
 
 
grant
19:37 / 01.03.06
id entity: (No offense is intended to persons made of cake. I hope I have not offended by using your situation as an example.)

You bastard! Here, %how would you like some chocolates??%
 
 
alas
19:46 / 01.03.06
Go, Tabitha. Go Go Go. What a clear explanation of the very challenging Judith Butler.

I'm so late to this thread, but bizarrely enough I suffered an assault last Friday - a very disempowering incident for anyone.

Damn, I'm sure sorry about the assault, however. I hope you are feeling better today and able to take real time away from responsibilities to recover.
 
 
illmatic
19:46 / 01.03.06
Just to point out, my earlier comments to leave DM alone weren't intended to "shut anyone up" and I hope no one felt that way.

Largely they came out because I also, have problems with the way things are dealt with on the Barb in many cases and I wanted to try an alternative method of conflict resolution, rather than the "flame and insult someone to death" approach which I don't think would have added much to the thread.
 
 
Tabitha Tickletooth
20:06 / 01.03.06
Thanks Alas, I'm recovering well. After what happened, to come to Barbelith and find that inequality was being tackled picked me up by the scruff and shook me out of a potential funk. Such good fights worth fighting.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:43 / 01.03.06
I'm sorry to hear about your assualt, Tabitha, and I really hope you recover quickly.

If it's not veering off on too much of a tangent, I'd like to bring up something mentioned in the Frank Zappa thread. One poster, xytar, started a thread to celebrate Zappa, and Flyboy pointed out that Zappa was arguably misogynist. His comment was dismissed out of hand as "throwing the baby out with the bathwater."

Legba Rex responded: Fly gives us a pertinent problem, and a reason why a lot of yer counter-cultural icons are problematic- remember that when Jack Kerouac and his mates were off on the road being mystical, they left various wives and girlfriends behind to look after the kids and clean the house.

This is something that makes me feel minimised when I see it on Barbelith. Lots of our male 'counter-cultural icons' are or were prejudiced against women in some way. Some of them seem to have enjoyed their success and freedom at the price of having a female caretaker. Some of them abused the women in their lives, even physically assaulting them. Others created misogynistic material.

To be fair, this kind of unsavoury aspect does get picked up on, as happened in the Zappa thread. But it always seems to be the same handful of voices, and such criticisms are always, always dismissed in tones of frowning disapproval. "But didn't So-and-so beat his wife?" gets relegated to the status of an unappealing personal habit, like picking your nose.

This is often true of the big figures in Western magic, many of whom also harboured other prejudices such as homophobia, making the Temple a rather iffy space at times.

(And no, I don't have any links offhand. Sorry.)
 
 
grant
20:49 / 01.03.06
Seriously this time, I thought xytar was reacting to the rant Flyboy linked to (which doesn't really mention misogyny so much, if my memory is still working) rather than the misogyny comment.
 
 
grant
20:51 / 01.03.06
Which is not to say that the Kerouac divergence isn't central to this thread here.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:44 / 01.03.06
"But didn't So-and-so beat his wife?" gets relegated to the status of an unappealing personal habit, like picking your nose.

A friend of mine always gets really angry whenever I refer to George Best as a wifebeater. "But he was a great footballer!" "Yeah, but playing football doesn't really bother me in quite the same way, y'know?"

Tabitha- fucking hell! Hope you're okay.

(off-topic- I said this in kovacs' "n-word" thread as well, but I'm loving that we're actually getting decent discussions in the Convo again even if- well, especially if, I guess, as in this case, they're moving a bit too fast for me to join in!)
 
 
Olulabelle
21:55 / 01.03.06
Wow. This is a generally excellent thing to be talking about and I'm glad the thread is rocketing along. I began reading this when it first started and it's moved so fast I have only now felt fully up to date and able to contribute.

I'm really glad that Nina's started it and I'd like to thank her. I know that several of the female posters I interact with off board here have been considering the possiblity of having this conversation on board for a while now.

Firstly, may I say that Barbelith is one of the few boards I have come across on the internet where directly misogynistic (or sexist) comments are usually not tolerated. As Ibis has directly referenced there are unfortunately a lot of places less concerned with such issues.

However, it is true that there is something underlying Barbelith which perhaps has to do with the general concept (or perception) of femaleness and which Celane and others far more eloquent than me have already tried to define, which makes me feel uncomfortable. This is happening more and more frequently. Direct examples are difficult and I wish, as others have said, that I had written them down when I came across them.

As an interesting point, I know that practically the first thing ever posted to me here was a comment by a male indentified poster in response to a post I made about the board seeming very friendly. He said something along the lines of 'that friendliness was due to the fact I had an obviously female username.' I make no comment on this, other than it really surprised me.

Specifics are difficult. I think someone's mentioned this already, but the Big Brother threads tend to occasionally venture into the uncomfortable territory. It's usually instantly jumped on.

These are just points of information rather than examples, because the real issue is less tenable.

As several female posters here have said, it's hard to put your finger on. But we have all noticed it, and yes there are several female posters who have come and then gone, and several who are still here, but who have actively avoided the board for periods of time because of it, me included.

So yes. I'm posting this just to register my own awareness of the subject, but also to say that the idea of having a thread where we can begin to compile examples and discuss them would be a good idea. It may help us with defining exactly why it is that we feel this way. We might find that fewer references than we imagine come up and it's just that the ones that do, rankle. It would be lovely if that was the end result, but sadly, I don't think it will be. I should say that I am very open to all outcomes.

Of course, this thread goes a long way towards addressing any issues by dint of its very existence. I really like the fact that many people are engaging with it.

I'd also like it to stay on topic and I would be sad to see it derailed because it's an important issue and one that needs discussing. It has also taken a while for the subject to finally be broached. This in itself is quite important. Why was it that several female posters discussed this off board, but felt too unsure of the response they might get to start a thread about it? What does that say about female perception of the board? To me the hesitation in bringing up something so fundamental is worrying in iteself.

I would also like to reiterate that I feel the general conduct of the board towards female posters and in discussing women in general is far, far more acceptable than in lots of situations in real life that I have encountered. That is A Good Thing.
 
 
Olulabelle
22:01 / 01.03.06
And Tabitha, I hope you're OK now. I'm glad this thread is helping.
 
 
ibis the being
22:16 / 01.03.06
Okay, it took me hours to find it but I finally located a specific example of creeping misogyny/sexism on Barbelith. Sorry for being a bit me-centric here, but it's a thread I started about a personal experience dealing with sexism at work. When I decided to post about it on Barbelith, I actually thought, who will understand better than the people on Barbelith? Where am I more likely to find sympathy than Barbelith (not counting close friends)? I was a little shocked to get what I felt was a chilly, dubious reception, particularly from the Qalyn corner... I didn't expect to get the "it's all in your head" line here. So that's my specific example.

(By the way, as a postscript, the ending to story with the coworker is that I earned his respect by matching his time cutting and rolling a room. He was my best buddy for months afterward. Until one day I solved a flashing paint problem by correctly diagnosing it as an improperly primed wall, despite his vehement arguments to the contrary. He never spoke to me again. Lesson learned - be good, but not too good, when you're a female in a man's profession.)
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:27 / 01.03.06
Tabitha I hope you're okay too.

women are not a homogeneous group. There's this "the other" effect going on which I think is what's disturbing me -- these fora are accepted as a primarily male-identified bastion, and posters who choose to identify themselves as other than the dominant group are basically choosing to wear a little badge that says, "Look, I'm weird!"

As others have already said this is a succint analysis of what happens on barbelith. Women are treated as women rather than other posters.

Boboss- I think there's something in this but I think we also need to avoid homogenising the male-identified contingent and keep in mind that 'lithers, at least in my experience, approach masculinity in a variety of ways. We also shouldn't neglect the board's small but vocal trans community.

This is important but doesn't get to the crux I feel because men on the board do not get the kind of treatment that is outlined by both GGM Wbat I think Barbelith fails abysmally at, at times, is recognising and analysising tendencies in its own culture.

I'd agree with statements made already about how there is a devaluing of female-identified posters.

The tendency is to devalue female identified posters and matters that relate to women's issues as pointed out by Mordant. That is a bias that excludes those who present as male, in fact it gives them space to present as many types of men where as women are often boxed primarily as women rather than many types of women (what we're trying to get to here I think is many types of person?).

Sekhmet- I have heard from female-identified posters that they have stopped or decreased their participation in Barbelith for precisely this reason. I think Nina can vouch for that as well.

I can. I raised this issue with a number of people face to face and on lj, both male and female posters on barbelith a few times in the last six months because I wanted to be clear on whether I was the only person who felt they were in this position or that there was something there that I couldn't quite grasp. I wasn't ready for a thread because I thought maybe it was all about me. The majority of people said that they felt I was on to something but were also unclear (some said they thought I was talking rubbish). I think it's been defined for us.

Barbelith is a difficult place to be female because primarily you are recognised as a minority. Do I think there's a tendency for women to wander off the internet and become irregular posters on message boards... yes but I think that's the reason for it in most places.

I wonder if what we see here isn't a reflection of offline life? Everyday society is reflected in social settings online and I think we see an othering here that is a continuation of the exact same thing offline.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
22:40 / 01.03.06
I remember that thread, ibis, and I wholeheartedly apologise if my advice at the time came across as chilly, dubious, misogynistic, etc. I suppose overall my posts in that thread were basically saying, "Give 'em as good as you get", which I realise was probably unhelpful and could be seen as ignoring the very real issue of sexism in the work-place (which was not my intention). Again, sorry.
 
 
Olulabelle
23:16 / 01.03.06
Do I think there's a tendency for women to wander off the internet and become irregular posters on message boards... yes but I think that's the reason for it in most places.

A lot to do with the internet is still very male dominated, within the industry and online. I used to work in a big internet consultancy and we had about 150 staff. All the people who worked there knew a lot about the internet, yet of the thirty or so programmers there was one female. Within the same number of designers there were three females. There were a lot of women working in human resources, a fair few in accounts, a few female production managers and a few female producers. We were definitely in the minority.

Of my female friends (other than the ones I've met through Barbelith) I know only three who write a blog (two of whom I used to work with at the internet consultancy) and none who post in internet communities. Of my female friends I spend more time online than anyone else I know (present company excepted).

When I first found Barbelith I showed it to other people. One of my female friends commented that it looked like a website 'where a lot of men get together who don't like sport.' I asked her what fora she'd looked at and she'd read the comics forum and music; the two things she was most interested in. I do think she picked the most male dominated fora, but nevertheless there is some relevance to what she said.

I don't know how to attribute this. The female posters we do have can't be responsible for representing the female voice in every forum - because that's part of the issue here. But females that do come to the board can look firstly at the 'wrong' forum, make a judgement based on what they see and leave to find another more accepting space. Maybe that's how Celane felt when she visited the Temple.

The lack of female posters is not Barbelith's 'problem' nor is it the internet community's 'problem'. It's a fundamental problem within society itself, although having said that, LJ seems not to have a problem with attracting females. Possibly that has to do with being able to stay relatively unchallenged and I realise LJ is not the same as Barbelith.

It's laudable that Barbelith is considering trying to attract more female posters. It would benefit us as a board, but I am wary of 'getting the quota up' and I would much rather those women came to us as a result of who we are as a board, than because they were wanted specifically because they are a certain gender.

A few of the female identified posters that drew me to join have now left. I would like to think that the female posters who are here now draw potential new female posters too.

I sincerely don't know how to make them come though.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:18 / 01.03.06
TT - I'm very sorry to hear, and I hope you continue to feel better. There are many people here who will do their best to talk about anything you would like to share.

Oh, and as an afterthought:

You damn well knew Haus, Nina, Flyboy and alas and everyone else was waiting for you to step out of line.

Actually, Cube, personally I have better things to do with my time than wait for Dead Megatron to step out of line, and I imagine Flyboy, Nina and alas have as well. You risk wasting a lot of good book-reading time waiting for somebody to facilitate your belief that they were waiting for etc.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:18 / 01.03.06
Excuse me, I think I did misinterpret xytar's "baby out with the bathwater" comment as being directed at any criticism of Zappa's apparent misogyny, whereas it was in fact directed at the article linked to in the thread. So, sorry for that.

Let me make it clear that I imagine the average poster on Barbelith would be genuinely opposed to intimate-partener abuse and would never dream of perpetrating it. Having said that, I do think that intimate partener abuse in our society is minimised overall and that this impacts on people's attitudes to it. This UK survey from 1999 makes for rather chilling reading, demonstrating a widespread acceptance of domestic violence (including forced sex). According to the article, "One in two young men think rape may be acceptable in certain circumstances and a quarter think it justifiable to hit a woman." I can't help but feel that these attitudes must affect the way that intimate partener abuse is percieved, even by those who would not agree that such abuse is ever justified.
 
 
Dead Megatron
23:45 / 01.03.06
Actually, Cube, personally I have better things to do with my time than wait for Dead Megatron to step out of line, and I imagine Flyboy, Nina and alas have as well. You risk wasting a lot of good book-reading time waiting for somebody to facilitate your belief that they were waiting for etc.

Well, you were a bit unnecessarily agressive towards me way back in page 1, dude. But I hardly think you did it as some sort of ellaborate set-up, though.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:45 / 01.03.06
You damn well knew Haus, Nina, Flyboy and alas and everyone else was waiting for you to step out of line.

Hey all I did was tell him to go and read Mary Wollstonecraft!
 
 
Dead Megatron
23:48 / 01.03.06
Of my female friends (other than the ones I've met through Barbelith) I know only three who write a blog (two of whom I used to work with at the Internet consultancy) and none who post in internet communities.

Actually, down here in Brazil, that's not so. Blogs and internet communities are largely dominated by females. Mostly, teenage females. I have no idea why it's different in here.
 
 
Dead Megatron
23:50 / 01.03.06
Hey all I did was tell him to go and read Mary Wollstonecraft!

Yes, Nina was very understanding of my utter ignorance up there...
 
 
eddie thirteen
00:41 / 02.03.06
I realize this was about six hundred and twenty years ago as this thread reckons time, but I wanted to say I'm glad you decided to stick around, Celane. As this thread goes on, my initial "huh?" reaction is shifting over to an "ah, I see." If my earlier comments sounded dismissive, that wasn't my intent; sexism seems so contrary to the politics of Barbelith that I really just could not see where you were coming from. It's getting clearer to me now.
 
 
My Mom Thinks I'm Cool
01:01 / 02.03.06
Okay, it took me hours to find it but I finally located a specific example of creeping misogyny/sexism on Barbelith.

wow, great example - I have to say I was reading this thread going "gee, is sexism really treated differently than otherisms here? I hadn't noticed that at all" and then, bam. I read this other thread and kept waiting for the Barbelith response I've gotten used to and it never happens. I've gotta say this, more than the other 7 pages of this thread, really made me think.

regarding white ribbons and x in y men thinking it's justifiable to hit women: I've gotten in trouble for my opinion on this before. I very much consider "men shouldn't hit women" to be a sexist notion as it implies something special about women that makes them unhittable. The position "human beings shouldn't ever hit other human beings" seems fair, though I don't agree with it. The position "human beings should only fight human beings who are able and willing to fight back/defend themselves" seems fair. Assuming that women will fall into the category of unwilling and unable, whether due to genetics, social conditioning, or whatever, is at least a generalization.

It ought also to be unacceptable for me to hit an old man or a little boy or a pacifist or someone who's just plain not a fair match for me. And telling me I can't fight back if a skilled fighter who happened to be female was hitting me is also bullshit. I've known plenty of women who could kick my ass, and some of them did.

Personally, though, I'm like Red Sonja - I don't want to date anyone who can't beat me in a fight.

anyway...am I way off on this and if so, how?
 
 
eddie thirteen
01:40 / 02.03.06
Okay, but can you fight a dog?!?

I don't think anyone will argue that a man should not defend himself against a brutal ninjina hellbent on his destruction. Thankfully, there is at least one question in this thread that has an easy answer. Unfortunately, it is only a meaningful question if you are Chuck Norris. Therefore, let us move on.

Generally, male violence against women as discussed by, like, people outside of action movies, comes either in the form of an unprovoked assault against a stranger or a non-romantic acquaintance (in all likelihood, perpetuated by someone who at least thinks his victim cannot/will not fight back), or in the form of a man striking his wife or girlfriend (or, in especially loathsome cases, his mom). The real question is not whether it's sexist to presume that a woman cannot defend herself, but what in the fuck are you doing hitting her in the first place? Other than the attack by Elektra: Assassin outlined above, I can see few defensible reasons for such behavior.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
02:25 / 02.03.06
The real question is not whether it's sexist to presume that a woman cannot defend herself, but what in the fuck are you doing hitting her in the first place?

Just for the sake of balance, personally the only time(s) I've ever been in a fight with a woman a) she started with the violence- and indeed the argument, but that's not really relevant, b) I didn't fight back- I generally don't, regardless of the gender behind the fist that's just hit me in the face, c) I lost the fight (not fighting back MAY have had something to do with it) and yes, the plural in "fight(s)" was deliberate. (Therefore I don't wish people to think I'm extending this to all women. Just saying people can make nasty assumptions on both sides).

"Hitting her in the first place" may therefore not be a given.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
02:31 / 02.03.06
(Oh, and just in case- before the rumours start, the woman in question is categorically NOT the one to whom I'm married).
 
 
eddie thirteen
03:25 / 02.03.06
Yeah, I don't really know how to reply to that. I hope this is an ex you're talking about. That's someone you don't need.
 
 
eddie thirteen
03:26 / 02.03.06
(Oh, and just in case- before the rumours start, the woman in question is categorically NOT the one to whom I'm married).

Fuck, I should hope not. Good God.
 
 
eddie thirteen
03:31 / 02.03.06
Sorry if that sounded...exasperated. I'm not holding you responsible for what sounds like a hellish situation, I'm just relieved to hear that's past tense.
 
 
*
03:38 / 02.03.06
I was about to post something long about The Clothesline Project, but I decided to keep my trap shut instead; it's probably not relevant.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
04:16 / 02.03.06
Mordant:

'We didn't set out to find such a result, so we were shocked by it.'

Are you seriously buying the results of this survey as representative of anything other than the opinions of a bunch of bored kids taking the piss? What were 'academics' presumably from the university of Walt Disney, North London/West of Scotland branch, doing carrying out a 'survey' in just Manchester, Glasgow and Fife in the first place? Why just in, not to generalise, but still, such 'louche' places? It's not hard to picture the scene - 'Hello young man... You don't seem to be at college or work at the moment... Hmm, yes that sounds terrible... Well If you wouldn't mind aswering a couple of questions... Yes.... Ok, first up, if your lover put up a fight in a sexual situation, would you try and kill hir' - who's not going to answer 'yes' in that set of circumstances, especially if it's part of an opinion poll being conducted by this or that character who's apparently studying under Professor Goofy?

It seems a bit like extrapolating the future of the British Nazi party based on a study of drunken pensioners in Dorset and Hastings, except, in the latter case, that those questioned might not be joking.

Not meaning to have a go, or anything, but the survey in question really does read a bit like relatively flawed science
 
  

Page: 1 ... 23456(7)89101112... 34

 
  
Add Your Reply