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Feminism 101

  
  

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Tryphena Absent
10:12 / 01.03.06
So... should more be done to attract female members?

Sure, start by listening to female posters who tell you there is a level of sexism on this board that they can't reference and start thinking about it when you read barbelith. The sooner we address that the sooner we'll be able to keep female members.
 
 
Alphonse commands you!
11:08 / 01.03.06
I definitely think that the way to attract more posters of either gender is to have female-identified board members accusing male-identified ones of rape. Congratulations, alas!
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:13 / 01.03.06
Why are you congratulating alas, Shantih, when alas did no such thing? Is the answer "I haven't read the entirity of this thread" or just "I am a douchebag"?
 
 
Sax
11:14 / 01.03.06
Um, what, Shantih?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:18 / 01.03.06
Shantih, I generally find that if you're criticising someone for a point they've made it helps to quote the speech in which they made that point. Not only does it clarify your own perception of what they said but it means other people can't refute you.

As we do because alas never made that point.
 
 
Alphonse commands you!
11:20 / 01.03.06
I am very much afraid to say that I have just read the whole of this thread and I did think that alas went off the deep end in response to an honest question from DM (or at least one for which she had no evidence to support the belief that it wasn't honest), so I guess if that makes me a douchebag - rather a sexist insult, don't you think? - that's what I am.
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
11:22 / 01.03.06
So... should more be done to attract female members?

In general the internet is "male-heavy", whilst barbelith characteristically bucks trends, I can't see any real and sustainable benefit of pursueing this by marketing or design.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:25 / 01.03.06
I am very much afraid to say that I have just read the whole of this thread and I did think that alas wnet off the deep end

That's not what you said, Traduction. You have so far posted to Barbelith 30 times, so it shouldn't be hard to keep track of the content of each of those posts. What you said was that alas accused DM of rape.
 
 
Sax
11:26 / 01.03.06
Although not so long ago we/the board/Tom did actively seek to bring more artists/scientists/whatever on to the board, by invitation and recommendation. Would it be social engineering of a less acceptable stripe to aim for a less disparate male/female mix by making the board more acceptable to women?
 
 
Evil Scientist
11:27 / 01.03.06
Good thread.

Regarding the level of misogyny on the boards. As people have previously said; it is there. Several threads have been referenced in the course of the thread which appeared within the last 6 months or so that adequately demonstrate this fact.

One point I'd like to make is that, personally, there are only a handful of posters on here whose gender I am aware of, and that's after nearly a year of posting. This might be the case with others too. Is it possible that what one poster interprets as another acting in a gender prejudiced way towards them might not be because of gender prejudice?

I'm not saying "THIS IS HOW IT IS EVERY TIME!". But is it possible that this is occasionally the case?

The question of how we procede from here to deal with it now looms heavy in the night sky. Because people don't necessarily realise that what they're saying is offensive. The site comes down very hard on racism and homophobia (and with good reason), so why not come down equally as hard on sexist behaviour?

Don't take the following as a call for expulsion. It's a recent example that I can think of.

Would Shadowsax have been given the time of day if he had been posting about a cabal of evil gays manipulating governments to favour homosexuals over hets? Hawksmoor got bounced pretty damn quickly for his comments (again, with good reason). Yet the FFJ thread spans 10 pages, most of which has Shadowsax posting sexist material and refusing to provide evidence for his statements.

Shadow, please don't take this personally. As I say it's a recent example of the kind of behaviour we're discussing. I'm not demanding you be expelled or anything like that.

Whilst I'd like to think of myself as percieving everyone to be equal, I know of at least one occasion where I was called on potentially mysogynistic behaviour. Over in Dilemma dilemma OMFG dilemma!.

I was criticised for automatically assuming the mysterious woman discussed in the thread was in a monogamous relationship, and that I was also making some assumptions of "women as property".

So, being that I take criticism badly, I got sarky. It's neither big nor clever, but in the "Reservoir Dogs" world of message boards nobody knows anyone else so nobody backs down. In fact it was probably only my mis-posting of Boboss's name that pulled me up on the fact that if I didn't take a time out I was going to let Total Prick Scientist out to play (although some would argue "What's the difference?").

When I came back to the thread, I opted not to continue posting for a day or so (and my only further contribution was a tongue-in-cheek comment regarding a picture that was posted). Why?

Well, IMO, both Nina and Alas know their shit about this kind of thing, and whilst I may not agree with some things they say on other subjects, I do respect that. So if they're suggesting I'm being mysogynistic then there's a possibility that I am (no matter how subconciously, it's not an excuse).

I'm not sitting in ashes and sackcloth and tearing at my hair about my posts on that thread. Probably could have handled the criticism better. I had assumptions made about my opinions that weren't accurate, which is essentially what I was doing to the woman in question.

Don't assume I'm angst-ridden and tear-stained muttering "Dear Darwin, what have I become? WHAT?". It's just a personal account...that rambled on and on.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:27 / 01.03.06
Seriously, traduction, you should step back and reconsider. I didn't entirely agree with alas response, although as Flyboy and Ganesh pointed out it was quite defensible, but "accusing male-identified [members] of rape"? This is exactly the kind of dismissive attitude that I'd like to see less of.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:27 / 01.03.06
I am very much afraid to say that I have just read the whole of this thread and I did think that alas wnet off the deep end in response to an honest question from DM (or at least one for which she had no evidence to support the belief that it wasn't honest), so I guess if that makes me a douchebag - rather a sexist insult, don't you think? - that's what I am.

Anyone can douche, be douched, or be a douchebag. But moving swiftly on... I take it you don't accept that it was reasonable to question the ethical implications of DM's apparent ignorance about something so basic as whether intercourse is always demeaning to women?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:45 / 01.03.06
Various members of the board have asked DM to think carefully about what he writes and his phrasing. He doesn't so when he implies he now gets called up on it and asked to explain. The implication was pretty clear in the questions that he posed and alas chose to call him up on it. As far as I'm concerned as a Conversation moderator every poster has a right to address what is said in posts on this board as long as they're not trolling or behaving in a way that rests on a particular bias.

If you wish to take this up traduction I suggest you pm alas or address her elsewhere, probably in Policy and Help. This thread is not about the nature of argument on barbelith, it is about a specific issue.
 
 
grant
11:46 / 01.03.06
Yeah, I'd say it's a bit worse in the Temple. I think things are much improved, but you can still get away with making dumb comments that would get you pulled up elsewhere.

I wonder if the Temple might be a little different in that part of the whole myth/magic business relies on essentialist readings of things, including of gender.

So... should more be done to attract female members?

Flowers! And chocolates!

No, really, beyond what this thread is doing *right now*, what would anyone suggest?
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:49 / 01.03.06
Thats fair enough, Nina, although don't you think that traduction's post - complaining about an evil man-hating feminist - is a good example of sexism on Barbelith?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
11:52 / 01.03.06
grant, I think Nina has it right - trying to attract women to Barbelith is in itself neither easy or pointful, but trying not to alienate them once they're here is another matter. There was a relatively recent period in which Barbelith seemed to be losing a prominent female poster every couple of months - some of them seem to be coming back now, which is good, although I can't speak for them as to why.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:52 / 01.03.06
It's certainly a useful example of how people can read things through the LADYFEAR filter. Shadowsax provides another good example of this, Qwik another.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:11 / 01.03.06
is a good example of sexism on Barbelith?

It might be but since traduction is reluctant to enter into specific it would currently be an assumption to say yes.
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
12:26 / 01.03.06
Although not so long ago we/the board/Tom did actively seek to bring more artists/scientists/whatever on to the board, by invitation and recommendation. Would it be social engineering of a less acceptable stripe to aim for a less disparate male/female mix by making the board more acceptable to women?

Indeed he did, but that was more as a pursuit of something akin to feature columnists rather than redressing a demographic imbalance and therefore not so much with the social engineering. I'm not saying that seeking a less disparate mix is unacceptable but carries with it certain traits of "doomed to fuck up" in it.

Our best chance of redressing an imbalance with any hope of success would be to render that imbalance meaningless and that goes for any minority group anywhere.

IMHO the first step would be lay off the andropanic guys.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:48 / 01.03.06
IMHO the first step would be lay off the andropanic guys.

Could you explain what that means please.
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
13:21 / 01.03.06
Using it to imply that some of the male posters on this board are facing accusations of misogyny with a high degree of self-defence. It's understandable, as no one wants to be accused of a bad thing, particularly one that has the demons of wife-beating and rape attached to it.

However that defence and associated self justification seems to preclude a proper examination of their own actions in what would appear to be a fear of admission of culpability.

Plus I was shamelessly coining a new term in a tongue in cheek throw to certainly previous linguistic events on barbelith, for which I apologise.
 
 
alas
13:51 / 01.03.06
is a good example of sexism on Barbelith?

It might be but since traduction is reluctant to enter into specific it would currently be an assumption to say yes.

It certainly came across to me as at best sloppy reading, particularly of the follow up, and since he's aware that I'm female-identified, well I am certainly left with the impression that my gender may have shaped his reaction.

Since this thread is called Feminism 101, and I'm a teacher, I'd like to assign everyone here, especially Qwik, traduction, and DM to read Virginia Woolf--A Room of One's Own--it's quite funny, it's not very long (although her sentences sometimes are, but that's just good practice) maybe 120 pages? Please pay particular attention to her argument that women's criticism of men/male activities is 1) less frequent but more visible than male critique of women, and 2) often met with a disproportionate, frequently even dare I say panicked male response, in our culture. Then come back and let's talk--here or in the quiet old books forum. I'll bring the tea, if one of you men will bring the crumpets.

I have acknowledged that I deliberately framed my response to DM in a provocative way, because I do think that the level of ignorance he particularly displayed there and which has been typical of virtually all of his postings on this board is, at this point, IMO unacceptable. Lurid is capable of having patience for him, and that may be a good thing. But Lurid was not put in the position of being asked as a female member to reassure an adult, sexually active male poster that it's ok that he has no idea whether intercourse is always and inherently a demeaning experience for women. That plea for reassurance really got under my skin, frankly.

So, in response to traduction's implicit worry that somehow my comment may scare off male members*--the way to attract more posters of either gender is to have female-identified board members accusing male-identified ones of rape--I would simply reply: if we scare off posters with the interpretive skills thus far demonstrated by DM and you, it's really fine by me. I haven't seen much of your skills yet, so I'm still willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe prove me wrong by reading some Woolf?

A complete absence of posters who seem incapable of comprehending basic feminist principals--e.g., the one I keep returning to: the ability to hear women's voices, to actually and carefull listen them, and a genuine awareness of the history of women's lack of authority over their own experiences/other subject matter--might do more to keep members like Celane (sorry I got your name wrong in the last post!) on board and engaged, which would be to the good of the board, in my opinion.

(* %does that make me, for real?, a castrating bitch? Maybe I don't need that shiny new axe? now that, apparently, one glance at my Medusa-like words is enough?%)
 
 
Evil Scientist
14:07 / 01.03.06
read Virginia Woolf--A Room of One's Own

What the heck, I'm a quick reader. I'll zap to the library this weekend and see if they've got it.

I...uh...I don't need to write an essay or anything do I?
 
 
alas
14:11 / 01.03.06
Yes. 500 words, of course. Or, alternatively, you could just bring me £500. Or both. I have the room already, thanks.
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:19 / 01.03.06
Sorry i took so long to respond, I was away form the computer

1) DM: it's just i never even conceived such a thought and it bugged me: have I been mistreating women all my life without knowing? I just need some woman to give some feedback on it

Dead Megatron: If you have never asked a woman you've actually had sex with what she enjoys, what she would like, how she likes to be touched, then you may very well have raped someone.

Well, from the bottom of my heart, Alas, FUCK YOU! Just because I made a question about a concept that seemed wrong in my experience, you assume I'm the kind of guy that just goes around grabbing women by their hair, dragging them to my cave and have intercourse with them withour even asking them if "it was good for you"? FUCK YOU! I do ask what they enjoy, and I do my best to satisfy them. I made the question because the concept seemed to alien to me, and the women I had sex with not only did not expressed any distaste for intercourse, but they actually sought it out actively. I saw the "intercourse a rape" line and it sound so very strange to me I just had to ask if there was something on it. I'm currently "girlfriend-less", so I had no one to ask in person, I redirected the question here. But I should know better by now, shouldn't I? How dare I not to just roll over and play dead? How dare I make a question about feminism (and any possible derogatory opinion about men and heterosexual sex intercourse some possible undergroung radical part of the feminist movement) in a thread called Feminism 101?

Just try to imagine the dialogue:

[telephone rings]

She: Hello, who's speaking?

Me: Hy, it's me, Megatron

She: Oh, hi, how are you doing?

Me: Fine, fine. Listen, remember when we were dating?

She: Yes?

Me: When we were having sex, did you feel like I was raping you?

She:???? What?

Me: Yeah, I mean, forget the forplay, forget the part where I was giving you oral pleasure, or vice-versa, forget the part when we came together. Focus on the part when I had my penis inside your vagina, did you feel demeaned somehow?

She:?????

Me: Just asking, y'know. By the way, have you ever read something from Dworkin?

I'm no sex god, but the women I have sex with do seem to enjoy it most of the time, and when they don't I stop and ask them why, you know...

So, one more time, and I do mean this sincerely, FUCK YOU!

geez
 
 
alas
14:23 / 01.03.06
Thank you DM.
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:27 / 01.03.06
You're welcome, as always
 
 
alas
14:30 / 01.03.06
Just out of curiousity, DM, did you read the rest of the thread since that posting? (I have a £500 bet riding on this.)
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:32 / 01.03.06
I gave it a quick look, yes. Didn't read every word, but saw your further comments and all. But I was still deeply offended by your initial assumption, nonetheless

Where's my money?
 
 
pointless & uncalled for
14:33 / 01.03.06
DM, alas; will the round of fantastic rationale and objectivity be ending any time soon?
 
 
Dead Megatron
14:35 / 01.03.06
I'll be happy to end it right now,if ze lets me...
 
 
Isadore
14:37 / 01.03.06
Hey now, I'm not leaving in a big steaming huff -- that would be antithetical to the spirit of Barbelith as I understand it. (...and, as matthesis pointed out, I probably don't understand Barbelith that well, but hell, this is the Convo, right, so I'm allowed to make an ass of myself in public?) I did, however, take the metaphorical big step back to recheck my assumptions and my problem. This is a rather important issue to me, but that doesn't mean I should (a) avoid dealing with it (thus my first post in this thread, instead of just keeping my damn mouth shut) or (b) post feelings and experiences without any logical basis or evidence (problem with said first post of opening said mouth without backup).

Thing is, it's been hard to quite put a finger on what's bothering me about here. It took about an hour last night to pinpoint one major issue that's at work in my perceptions of this place, and I'm still not sure if the resulting hypothesis is just me being not-British and just completely missing the whole tone required of life here, or if it really is a problem -- which it may well be if other, more established and experienced non-male-identified posters are getting the same vibe. Right, I hope that made any sense.

Here's the thing, and the more I look, the more this particular thread is a hopping good example: women are not a homogeneous group. There's this "the other" effect going on which I think is what's disturbing me -- these fora are accepted as a primarily male-identified bastion, and posters who choose to identify themselves as other than the dominant group are basically choosing to wear a little badge that says, "Look, I'm weird!"

When I first got here I thought it would be a neat idea to just avoid the gender issue, because hey, why not, I don't have to be anything online -- but more and more I see that that lack of selfness makes me uncomfortable, as though I'm wearing a mask, as though I'm ashamed to be who I am.

It's as though women are Barbelith are noticably and accepted as a minority group, with all the well-meaning condescension that involves; the whole "ask one women to know what another thinks" concept is just a really obvious example. I do realize DM got jumped on for that, but my personal prejudices suggest that's because he was blatant about his opinion, not because it's an entirely foreign one to everyone else here. (Personal prejudices, of course, are not good evidence for anything. Take with large jar of salt and a bit of lime juice.)

So that's my thoughts. Still not terribly logical, I suppose, but hopefully a bit better explanation of what's bugging me about here than just, "Yes, I do get the misogynist vibe, and it creeps me the hell out."
 
 
alas
14:38 / 01.03.06
I'm done. And I think I won the £500.
 
 
iconoplast
14:39 / 01.03.06
You know, there is something that strikes me as very strange in the way we as a board are reacting to DM.

As far as I can tell, he's trying to become more right-on in his treatment of women, and he's asking for the opinions of feminists in regards to a very private portion of his life. Now, posting on Barbelith may not be the world's greatest means of obtaining the opinion held by Feminism, Inc., but it's something, you know?

Years ago, I asked Barbelith are blowjobs really about power? Which (I think) is a very similar question. But people responded to the question, and not to the asking.

I... I dunno. I'm really sincere when I ask, what did he do wrong that I didn't do? There's a boundary between 'are blowjobs really about power?' and 'is all sex rape,' but... where, and why?

This conversation, IMO, is great, and reminds me why I love barbelith. But it's not the most familiar ground for me, so I'm a bit cautious about where the lines are between acceptable and unacceptable questions.
 
 
iconoplast
14:41 / 01.03.06
t's as though women are Barbelith are noticably and accepted as a minority group, with all the well-meaning condescension that involves; the whole "ask one women to know what another thinks" concept is just a really obvious example. I do realize DM got jumped on for that, but my personal prejudices suggest that's because he was blatant about his opinion, not because it's an entirely foreign one to everyone else here.

...ask, and the answer gets posted while you're asking.

Oh. Good point.
 
  

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