1) DM: it's just i never even conceived such a thought and it bugged me: have I been mistreating women all my life without knowing? I just need some woman to give some feedback on it
Dead Megatron: If you have never asked a woman you've actually had sex with what she enjoys, what she would like, how she likes to be touched, then you may very well have raped someone. The person to ask is the person you're fucking, when you are fucking them, not an anonymous board. BECAUSE:
Feminism, at a minimum, means actually listening to women. It means being aware that women have been, in general, granted less authority in our culture for a very very long time. They have been granted less authority over their own experiences and less authority over other subject matters.
[My classic example is clothing: men can put on a tie in our culture and, while it may feel like a noose, it actually immediately says "authority." Women can wear a tie but it doesn't signify the same thing on a woman's body. It says, "drag," "Annie Hall," maybe "playful" but not "authority." There is no comparable article of women's clothing.]
In many ways, especially once you get beyond the very basic issue of respecting women and understanding that there's a (complex and disputed) history of women's oppression, there is no "feminism" only "feminisms." But I think it is safe to say that most versions of feminism today would extend the basic feminist argument to all other persons who have been historically disempowered: all persons deserve to be listened to and respected, and it's harder to hear some voices than others.
Individuals who are perceived as belonging to privileged groups typically need to learn to hear and respect the voices of those who have not been traditionally empowered; they may not even be aware just how easy our culture makes it for them to only pay attention to the voices of authority. They may find, however, if they take the time to listen to the voices of people they've been trained to dismiss or ignore that they gain a whole new perspective that is valuable; they see their world a little more clearly.
Now, I'm going to be blunt again: The fact that you, Qwik, seem never to have actually read a feminist writer, that you apparently know nothing of women's history, that you know nothing of the history of marriage, that you don't seem to actually be listening to or responding to the voices of women on this topic with anything like respect, and yet are sure that you and your wife have the most egalitarian relationship you have ever seen, leaves me very much in doubt about that latter claim.
Your position is actually quite similar to DMs, so far as I can see.
Some forms of ignorance (particularly past the age of say, 20) are a form of misogyny. A correctable form, I think, but misogyny nonetheless. The great thing about a diagnosis of misogyny is that it is cureable and therefore not fatal.
2) Is there, or has there been, any form of a political movement pushing towards gender equality that was not called Feminism?
No. What does that tell you?
The reason I ask is because this thread is an example of how the word Feminism alone can bring up hugely varied reactions from people.
Yes. What does that tell you? To me it says: Gender equality and respect for women as full human beings is a radical idea, still.
Another thread I'd recommend that's sort of on this good feminists/bad feminists topic is the schisms in the isms thread, which I've linked to Bilious's first contribution, because that's where the specific issue of feminism arose. I urge Qwik, in particular, to read the next several postings, there, including mine, because I am still pretty confident of my reading of the tried and true angels/whore approach to women/feminism. |
I'm trying to be more intuitive actually.