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Calling all Barbe-parents...

 
  

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Psych Safeling
20:44 / 12.09.06
Aha, I was thinking of resurrecting this thread myself, just to berate those present for not redirecting me to it earlier (as instructed). Amazing to have read it twice, a year apart, from such entirely different perspective (little one is now 21 weeks old).

Lilly, the eat/activity/sleep thing is exactly what transformed my life at 11-12 weeks, though it happened entirely inadvertently when a friend suggested that a baby that cried as much as mine might benefit from being in the sling most of the day, and this helped me realise when she was crying from hunger and when from tiredness. I think I hadn't appreciated how many naps she needed. Now we're (just) onto solids, though, I'm not sure where to put the solid feeds in?

Olulabelle, that sounds like what I've heard called 'controlled crying', and I've had many people sing its praises to me. I've also read that it shouldn't be done before six months, and there are people who protest that it teaches a baby that crying doesn't work, and the baby consequently loses the alert mechanism. I know one baby that seems an unhappy little soul, is very clingy, and almost never smiles, and whilst it's always dangerous to conclude anything from a sample size of one, it seems too much of a coincidence that he was left to cry from two weeks old.

I had to learn to leave my baby to cry a bit when she was tiny because she cried constantly and occasionally I'd need to e.g. go to the loo or eat something (breastfeeding makes me SO HUNGRY!), but I'm generally very reluctant. We've been pretty fortunate on the sleep front, but I don't know that I could posit why. She has been waking up lately (between three and four, like clockwork) and I've not been feeding her as I know she can get through the night without, and it's taken up to an hour to get her back to sleep, but fingers crossed the introduction of the baby rice has got her through.

What is Bobossino's timetable? Does he wake regularly and does it seem to be for feeds or for comfort? Do you go in and pick him up or do you just put a hand on him and leave him in the cot? Is he still in your room? Does he have sleep cues and a bedtime routine - are there things that can help him get to sleep like a cloth smelling of you two and/or music? Does he have a dummy?

And, if you are indeed attachment parents, do you practice Elimination Communication?! (sorry, that may mean nothing if you didn't see the C5 programme the other day)

As a final note, one of my most laid-back (or so I thought...) friends came round for dinner on Sat, and announced to my amazement that she is absolutely determined to do Gina Ford. I never read it, so I didn't really have a comeback, but I suggested she didn't get too stuck on the idea before she met the little person she's planning to regulate.
 
 
Spaniel
20:47 / 12.09.06
To go into more detail, he usually wakes up two or three times every night and wants feeding, and what little pattern there is is easily disturbed by wet nappies or room temperature (very hot summer nights in particular) or, I dunno, a funny mood.

I should stress that he really isn't a very sleepy baby. He's never slept much throughout the day, and has absolutely oodles of energy. Christ, we only got him to go down an hour or so ago and he was pretty much super alert until his eyes slammed shut. In many ways all this is great stuff - he's healthy, very physically active, bright as a button and has a lovely temprament, and it needs to be said that we're not exactly at our wits' end. It's not like his late night feeds are bracketted by floods of tears and screams - it's just that we'd like one, just one, unbroken night.

Lula, you're pretty much on the money with your guess. Attachment Theory is all about responding to your baby's needs and your sleep clinic technique (sounds Gina Fordian to me) is pretty much the opposite of how we've parented up to now. That's not to say that I can't see the appeal, however, and I'm really glad it worked for you, but I just can't see us going that route, not yet anyway.
 
 
redtara
21:03 / 12.09.06
I'm having real trouble getting one year olds off. Stuff works, mostly lucky exhaustion, for a couple of days and then I have a run of loooonnnnnnnngggggggggg evenings.

My mum 'made me' control cry my daughter (now fifteen). It's funny I think I've been trying to make up for it ever since. I am the least conrolling Ma I can be with her. I didn't control cry my son and I supose to the untrained eye he might appear a little ferral and I suppose he is. He's ten.

I had a little go a couple of months back just 'cos I know that way lies my sanity, but hey ho I just don't have the stomach for it. I am pretty squeemish about control though.
 
 
Spaniel
21:08 / 12.09.06
Grant, we don't adhere strictly to the techniques advocated Attachment Theory experts, we just lean towards the Attachment Theory way of parenting, and yes we have a kind of co-cleeping arrangement: his cot is next to our bed and the side is removed so he can reach us and we can reach him.

Psych, if you want to know more about what's wrong with Fordian principles I suggest you read Why Love Matters by Sue Gerhardt. Unfortunately the Amazon reviews don't really do this painstakingly researched book justice.
 
 
redtara
21:16 / 12.09.06
Sorry just reread my post and I sound a bit sniffy about Conrol crying {and there is a whole world of subtext in that bit about my mum and me as a mum, wow! - you can run but you can't hide, nor my daughter from me! BWha ha ah ha ha!} and I want to stress that I in no way am I casting aspertions on the validity of any child rearing technique that doesn't leave marks (yuk-yuk). Let, 'whatever gets you through' be the whole of the law

I have visited multiple birth message boards while I was pregnant and if you think Barbelith has been in melt down you haven't seen a board used mostly by the sleep deprived and stressed talking about the principles of nurturing that their identity curently hangs on. You haven't seen a flame war till you have seen one on whether or not a mother should dress her twins identically. Ugly.

Just saying that the most anyone can say is 'that's not a choice for me.' Let's try not to get hurt out here people.
 
 
Spaniel
21:22 / 12.09.06
Oh, and, yes, we do have an evening routine of sorts, but his mood can throw it all to shit.

5 o'clock solid feed, followed by a breastfeed
6 o'clock Daddy gets home and Mummy hands Bobossino over - games are played.
7 o'clock bath
7.30 another breastfeed
8.00 bed...

...we hope

His pattern at night

Anytime between 10.30 and 12.00 a breastfeed
Anytime between 1.30 and 3.00 another breastfeed
Anytime between 4.30 and 6.00 yet another breastfeed (this one tends to take place closer to 6 these days)
Sleep until around 6.45 (or on a really good day 7.30)

According to the doctor and the cranial osteopath he really doesn't need the 3ish feed, he's just wants a comfort nibble on Mummy's breast.

And before I forget, growth spurts almost always affect his routine adversely, at least for their duration.
 
 
Spaniel
21:24 / 12.09.06
You haven't seen a flame war till you have seen one on whether or not a mother should dress her twins identically.

Being an identical twin I have pretty strong feelings about that myself.
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:35 / 12.09.06
For or against? Because I've known twins who got a real kick of being mistaken by people...

anyway, it makes me think, at least you're not having twin problems, eh?
 
 
Spaniel
21:39 / 12.09.06
Against, definitely against. Twins have enough problems muddling through their identity issues without parents muddying the waters.

All that stuff about fooling people and getting away with shit is mainly fiction.
 
 
Dead Megatron
21:40 / 12.09.06
Mainly, but not completely, I suppose.

Unless those guys were lying to my face.
 
 
Spaniel
21:42 / 12.09.06
We really need another thread for this...
 
 
Olulabelle
08:25 / 13.09.06
I've been thinking about this on my cycle ride to school this morning and I think there are some important things to mention.

Firstly, I object to the term 'attachment' parenting, because it basically implies that parents who use other 'parenting methods' are less attached than the wonderful, perfect 'attached' ones. I also have problems with 'parenting methods' since I think that following a 'way' is a little bit dodgy. Common sense and awareness of instinct are very good starters for looking after kids. As is remembering you were one once.

The first six months of life are all about what a baby needs and so going to your baby and feeding on demand and all of that, well of course. But after six months your baby is perfectly able to sleep for big periods of time, and in fact through the night. If your baby is not doing that, that's because you have 'taught' your baby that the only way to go to sleep is by having someone rock you/feed you/whatever.

It's just the same as people who tiptoe around the house going, "Shhhh, don't wake the baby". You are teaching the baby to wake up to the slightest noise. It's a very western thing, this perceived need for quiet. You don't see families in tribal villages all tiptoeing around being careful not to wake the baby, do you? If you carry on as normal, then the baby will learn to sleep through normal levels of noise.

I think I should say that I am not regimented. I slept with my baby next to me for the first six months and I fed on demand, but my baby was an appalling sleeper. What I am writing here is what I learned from the sleep clinic, from listening to all the other parents and from my own experience.

So regarding sleeping or rather not sleeping. Currently people seem to be missing two crucial facts. Crucial fact number one: A knackered parent is a shitty parent. If you are not getting enough sleep then your baby is suffering, however wonderful and attachmenty you are. You are more grumpy, more quick tempered, less positive, less amenable, less likely to play, less kind etc, etc. I do nor think suffering through a form of torture makes you a good parent, especially when there are things you can to do to change it, therefore making yourself less tired, thereby being a much better parent to your child.

Crucial fact number two is that babies learn. If, everytime a baby needs to go to sleep someone is there helping it, then how is the baby ever going to learn to let itself fall asleep? What you are actually teaching your baby is that it cannot go to sleep without you.

Regarding the sleep clinic technique. I suppose it's based on the Ferber method but it's different, much kinder. It should only be undertaken with children over six months. For children that can walk, just amend it slightly to return them to bed.

Basic facts:

Remove sleep clues from the baby's sleep area - mobiles, dummies, musical lights etc.

Choose a phrase.

Choose an amount of time you can let your baby cry - from one minute to ten minutes.

Do the bedtime routine but without clues; so feed, play, bath, bed or whatever, then put your baby in bed, say goodnight and leave the room. Everytime the baby cries, return to the room, put one hand on the baby's chest, say your phrase and then leave the room again. Do this continually. Don't pick the baby up or change the phrase. Don't be tempted to cuddle the baby. Don't make eye contact with your baby. The baby needs to know that you will always come, but that nothing interesting will happen when it is time to be asleep.

When it is time to get up, get the baby and do the whole 'good morning, happy happy, cuddles' thing.

Do this again the next night, and again the next night.

My baby slept for an hour the first night, three hours the second night, six hours the third night and then straight through from 8pm to 7am the fourth. He then started sleeping for a long nap in the day too of his own choosing whereas before he was unhappy in the day and wouldn't sleep at night. He was a much happier baby. Fractious, unsettled babies are often babies who are suffering from a lack of sleep.

The baby and I were struggling so much from lack of sleep and then things all changed when we did the sleep clinique technique. It was lovely to spend time with a happy baby and ever since then he has slept through the night.

It's a hard thing to do and it takes a lot of willpower not to pick your crying baby up, but I think it's important to remember that the baby can easily sleep through the night and actually should be, that the baby is also suffering from a lack of sleep and finally but most importantly, without sleep you are not functioning correctly and therefore cannot look after the baby to the best of your ability.
 
 
William Sack
11:28 / 13.09.06
As the father of identical boys I have to say that I am not a fan of dressing them identically either.

As for sleeping put me down in the 'whatever works' camp. One thing that comes through from several posts on this thread is that sleep deprivation can drive you nuts and make you a less-than-perfect parent.

My own boys had a particularly bad patch around the 12 month point and we did controlled crying. After 3 bad nights they started going through the night. As someone else in the thread said, babies are pretty robust little things, and I would be absolutely amazed if those 3 nights, which I imagine were a little distressing and bewildering for them, had an adverse impact on them that lasted more than those 3 days. I am more confident of the fact that having parents who were a lot less frazzled and stressed was beneficial to them though.

Anyway, for those having disturbed sleep I sympathise, and hope you find something that works for you and your babies.
 
 
Spaniel
12:20 / 13.09.06
Lula, I assume when you say "people" you mean, er, me, that being the case, I promise to come back to this thread when I'm not at work.
 
 
grant
12:53 / 13.09.06
Might consider a bowl of hot cereal right before bedtime. (8:00 or 10:00, your choice.)

(Note: I'm not a doctor or anything, but that worked for us.)

Should be only one wake-up after that, I think.

(Oh, and of course, our kids were older than yours, which translates to different needs.)
 
 
redtara
13:44 / 13.09.06
Olulabelle, I tried control crying and had only limited success. We got down to ten minutes of crying and then the next night it would go on for an hour and a quarter. At that point I had to give it up, after persevering for over two weeks. I have three lads and so they can sometimes, but by no means always, wake each other up.

Admitedly i didn't go into them once I had put tham down. They will be one in a couple of weeks, do you think it's worth trying again keeping strictly to your procedure. Do you have any suggestions about how a single parent might cope with three mardy babies in one go. Do I just do the rounds? The prospect of a full nights sleep gets me a bit giddy and to have the sleep thing boxed off by their first birthday would make me tres smug.
 
 
Olulabelle
14:04 / 13.09.06
Nonossnoy, I don't specifically mean you, I mean in general this thread seems to be missing attention to those crucial things.

Redtara, I honestly have no idea. I mean I would try again using the sleep clinic technique, which means going back in all the time. All the time. I had my alarm set on ten minutes in case I fell asleep and also I was sharing the job then.

But three babies is hard. I can see that they would keep each other awake, but I think maybe I would try to do the thing anyway, just going in and putting your hand on one after another.
 
 
Olulabelle
14:24 / 13.09.06
A bit more on controlled crying, I don't think what I was taught was controlled crying because AFAIK controlled crying means that you leave your baby quite a lot to cry on it's own. In the technique I used you can go to your baby every minute if you really need to, you just must not overstimulate them with chatter and cuddles and all the bright things in their room.

Some people suggest sleepy feeding which is waking your baby up just before the baby would normally wake, so that the baby feeds but is sleepy and unaware. You're also supposed not to communicate much and to keep the lights low, so that the baby doesn't associate night-time with stimulation.

I don't think any one method is better than any other. It's all down to what suits you best and I think what's fashionable and 'proved' now will be completely different in ten or even five years.
 
 
Spaniel
15:55 / 13.09.06
Lula, I appreciate why you might dislike the term "Attachment Parenting" but I'm kind of forced into using it when discussing the subject. As for the use of the word "attachment", I think it pays to remember that it is being used in a very specific sense here, and signifies a complex psycho-physiological process (portentous terminology I know, but I'm struggling for words) and as such goes beyond the word's normal set of meanings.

I should make it clear at this point that while I am broadly a fan of the aims and thinking behind Attachment Parenting (it appeals to me on both a rational and intuitive level), and find the scientific evidence compelling, I am not a hardcore practitioner. That said, Lula, regarding your worries about methodologies, of course I understand that they are potentially more trouble than they are worth, but that doesn't change the fact that, in principal at least, some methodlogies may be superior to others. Taking the above two points into account, then, it may be better to see such theories as helpful signposts rather than catch all answers, or indeed prescriptive burdens*. That's certainly my attitude, anyway.

On the subject of crucial fact number 2, that's a really tricky and complex area, and one that's been bothering me for the last few weeks. The problem is, I'm unclear just how much of a problem this actually is - in the long term, I mean - and whether what we've been doing is actually more beneficial for to son. Whether we're placing our inconvenience over what's best for him, and whether that's legitimate considering we're not miserable and not behaving like shitty parents (yet).

Finally, Lula, I'd actually urge you to read Why Love Matters, 'cause it's a really good, really interesting book, and I reckon you'd quite like it.


*Hopefully concerns about crucial fact number 1 can also be abandoned here, at least is so far as they relate to my thinking.
 
 
Spaniel
15:58 / 13.09.06
It's all down to what suits you best and I think what's fashionable and 'proved' now will be completely different in ten or even five years.

I know what you're saying, I really do, but I think it would pay to actually read about the research and thinking behind any given theory before dismissing it as merely faddish.

(I'm assuming you don't know much about Attachment Theory here)
 
 
Spaniel
17:38 / 13.09.06
God, sorry, third post in a row.

We think we might be getting to the bottom of the problem.
Bobosso had him weighed and measured today and it seems that the trend his physical development has been following has become more pronounced. The thing is, he is, and has always been, a very tall baby and this seems to be having a knock on effect on the amount he needs to eat, in that currently he's under the average weight for his age. Basically we should be feeding him more solids, and that should (according to the nurse) help promote more and better sleep.

If that doesn't work we'll probably get on with Lula's method.
 
 
grant
18:42 / 13.09.06
Basically we should be feeding him more solids,

Vindication! And now, the boy is MINE!!!
 
 
Spaniel
18:43 / 13.09.06
Okay, I give up, he's in the post
 
 
Psych Safeling
19:20 / 13.09.06
Great post, Lula, and thanks for the detail. It does sound different from 'controlled crying' (I use inverted commas to highlight that I don't really like all this specificity and nomenclature), and I would probably benefit from following it (my 'solids works' smugness was conclusively atomised last night). I don't pick her up but I do spend ages stroking her head and holding my cheek against hers (OK, yes, I do like it) whilst singing bad made-up lullabies.

I have found that all the literature available tends to exacerbate what I call the 'school project' approach to parenting, as if there are a set of assignments that can be completed to a range of satisfactions. (I will stress here that I only have one proper friend with a baby and my NCT class, so I'm hardly generalising appropriately). Not only do I think this is dehumanising, I also reckon on an expedient level that parents are setting themselves up for a fall by inferring such a linear cause-and-effect relationship between every little thing they do and every behaviour the child will exhibit in its life. Having said that, I noticed when I watched that documentary that we were abiding by quite a lot of the 'attachment parenting' tenets, completely inadvertently, but just because that was what felt intuitively right and the method that seemed to work best following an exhaustive (and exhausting!) period of trial and error. I would add, again for those that watched the programme, that we are NOT practising elimination communication, and that we DO allow our daughter to wear (washable) nappies.

I also thought about the memory/trauma thing the other day (and Boboss, I will read the book) - I had had a really traumatic journey with the Dottir screaming her lungs out in the back of the car, and I felt like a really terrible mother, particularly as I had stopped to burp her in case that was causing the problem, but obviously hadn't done it well enough, since on arriving she let out a triumphal trump and cheered up immediately. I was still berating myself ten minutes later when I looked at her and realised that there was a very slim chance she had any memory of the crisis she had been bewailing so shortly before.
 
 
Spaniel
19:33 / 13.09.06
I really don't think one difficult journey's going to cause any longterm problems, Psych. At least I hope not - we've had more than a couple.

As I understand it the problem's come when babies are exposed to stressful situations (hunger, tiredness, discomfort, need for affection, etc) on a regular basis, or when they are very young, and expected not to cry or make a fuss.
 
 
Elettaria
19:47 / 13.09.06
Hi, Nobody's Girl, think you know who I am from your husband, even though we only met briefly at Don Giovanni. *waves*

If you're still looking for a massage, I know some fantastic aromatherapists and they're all mothers and great with hormonal and stress issues. If you don't mind trekking out to Portobello, my current aromatherapist does hot stone massage for the same price as standard massage (normally it's much more expensive) and it's utter bliss. She works from home, the other place I'd recommend is Thuja in Morningside, where I've known two of the aromatherapists there for years and they have kept me going through some of the worst times of my life. All three of them have trained in a variety of disciplines, so you can get bits of Indian Head Massage or Reiki or Myofascial Release thrown in as well.

I don't have kids myself, but I've heard that children are capable of learning some basic sign language much earlier than they master speech (around 5 months on, I believe), and that it can be really useful for communicating needs and relieving some frustration. Any use?
 
 
Spaniel
20:02 / 13.09.06
7 months is the age to start according to most experts. We're gonna give it a go.
 
 
redtara
22:35 / 03.10.06
Lula, you have my deepest gratitude.

I am now the proud mother of boys who go to sleep at 7pm and stay there until 6.30amish. I shit you not! When they sometimes wake up I go to them and tell them 'Time for Sleep' and they settle back down and i go back to what ever I was doing.

I have become an evangelist for your sleep routine. Hurray for you!

Yours, mother on the verge of getting a life.
 
 
Olulabelle
09:10 / 04.10.06
Oh! I am so pleased for you, excellent! Yay, lovely happy not-tired-anymore babies. Do you feel better now too?

I can't tell you how happy it makes me that it has helped. I just kept remembering how utterly crap I felt when we were going through the sleeplessness, and then how finally fixing it was so wonderful and I really wanted everyone else to feel better too.
 
 
Spaniel
10:11 / 04.10.06
That's brilliant, Tara. Must be a whole new world.

I'm getting very interested in giving Lula's strategy a go, but I'm concerned that our little joybeast won't be getting enough food if he doesn't feed during the night. We're trying to cram him full of solids throughout the day, and he gets a morning and bedtime feed, but weaning being what it is (up and down and unpredictable) I still worry.
 
 
bitchiekittie
14:12 / 04.10.06
the SLEEPING bit gets easier, but you just sort of trade in the baby problems for big girl problems. and it doesn't stop once they're grown and moved out, I'm afraid, if my mom's constant worrying over me is any indication.
 
 
Spaniel
17:35 / 25.10.06
More advice please!

We're looking into nurseries at the moment as in Feb my partner is due to go back to work part-time after a year long hiatus. Now, Grandma will come in for a day a week, so that leaves a day and a half where we'll need childcare. Needless to say we're not crazy about him spending a full day a week away from his family, and even with tax credits nursery costs aren't the most fun in the world, but it would seem as if we have no choice. We have thought about getting a close friend or my brother in for half a day, but we're not sure if we'll be able to rely on anyone enough to make it a realistic option, and there's no way we can ask my Mum for more help. As for me flexing my hours to accommodate, I can get a few early days here and there but nothing consistent.
There are a couple of other options on the table: Bobosso could (maybe) work one full day and three half days, meaning that he would spend three half days in childcare. On the face of it this is a less brutal option, but it still means three disrupted days out of his week, and I wonder if we're better off getting it all over with in one big chunk. It's also possible that we could take some half day holidays for the first few weeks in order to ease him into his new routine.

I'm not worried about nursery per se, I appreciate that it'll be a golden opportunity for him to socialise with other children and get out from under our wing and into the world, but it's just that a whole day seems an awfully long time to leave him, and it's going to be pretty costly wherever we send him (obviously the better the nursery the more the expense and we plan on sending him to a good, reputable nursery).

So, what have your experiences been? What solutions have you reached, and am I worrying unnecessarily?
 
 
grant
18:06 / 25.10.06
Half days definitely sound like a good option to me.
 
 
Proinsias
18:19 / 25.10.06
I think some time at nursery away from mum & dad done wonders for our wee one. She was at nursery from around 10 months to 18 months for 3/4 days a week and it's really evident that it has helped her social skills and independence hugely. The nursery we had was fanstasic and all of the staff really took interset in the children and were very happy to talk about their development. My other half found it really helpful and reasurring to have experienced staff to discuss anything and everything relating to our daughter opn a daily basis. I think the money was worth it as much for the advice and talks as it was for the childcare.

Forwarding on a little we enroled her in a more local nursery for 1/2 days a week. The difference was unbelievable, the staff took little or no interest in the children, the report at the end of the day consisted of "She was fine all day" they would tell us that she ate all her lunch until I pointed out She didn't arrive till after lunch and the kids seemed to spend quite a lot of time watching videos.

That said I still beleive, as it was the only nursery we could get her to, that it was worth it for the interaction with other kids. Even if I wangled a day off I would still ensure she attened for a few hours just for the social side.

Our daughter is now nearly three and I've taken a year out as I feel I've hardley seen her over the past few years due to the combination of uni & call centres. She now spends time between myself, grandparents and attends toddler groups. After Christmas we will be taking up our few free hours a week of nursery care which I hope should keep her life fairly rounded. The toddler groups are good for her but I still feel It's not the same as interacting with people away from M&D.

I wouldn't worry too much about the nursery, I get the feeling it's easier for all concerned to do the away from M&D earlier on in life. As far as recommendations go certainly listen to other, but make your decision based on the people looking after you child. Some nurseries vary quite considerably in quality just depending on which room you child will be in. Also with the younger kids the staff per child is greatly increased meaning they are more likely to be with the one or two members of staff fairly consistently.

Good Luck
 
 
redtara
18:55 / 25.10.06
First and best advice is to speak to the parents of some of the kids who attend now. Recomendations from people whoes child attended recently are essential. If you don't know anyone now then loiter near the gate and ask some parents after they have picked up their kid, they wont mind. Also ask the manager what their staff turnover is like. This is the international sick business coefficient. If there turnover is high look for other arangements. This is less about preventing your child from going to a sub standard nursery and more about just reassuriong yourself and having confidence as you walk down the path.

As far as the weekly routine and what combination of days and half days goes; nursery is mad expensive, but worth everypenny if it is allowing you to experience your work time in the least stressful most rewarding way. I suggest that all your veriations on a theme all have their pros and cons and the diciding factor should be the impact going back to work could have on your partner. I have always beleived that if something was good for me then it would benefit my children as well. I found that half days were stressful. I couldn't get into the days work before it was time to go home. I didn't feel like I was there. Other people who have been out of the adult world might find that half days are enough. I like having whole days off from work to spend with the babies. Others might apreciate a daily dose in their roultine.

Just sayin that he will be fine no matter how you place him. My kids are in all day four days a week and they love it. I love it. Their bigger sister and brother love it. All is well so which ever is going to be most useful and least stressful is the way to go I recon.
 
  

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