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Olulabelle
21:53 / 27.03.07
Don't you think that people's reactions to a thread could be limited by the forum the thread is in? Perhaps if the thread had not been in conversation a different approach might have been taken. I think the level of discussion goes with the territory, or at least it should.
 
 
sleazenation
22:05 / 27.03.07
Don't you think that people's reactions to a thread could be limited by the forum the thread is in?

No, I don't.

I think similar responses would have flowed no matter what forum the thread resided in.
 
 
Papess
22:23 / 27.03.07
Don't you think that people's reactions to a thread could be limited by the forum the thread is in? Perhaps if the thread had not been in conversation a different approach might have been taken. I think the level of discussion goes with the territory, or at least it should.

This is pretty much my argument, Olulabelle.

No, I don't.

I think similar responses would have flowed no matter what forum the thread resided in.


So, sleazenation, try the reversal. Take a Headshop thread and put it in Convo and see if you get the same conversation. You won't because the HS has defined rules and expectations, even with the exceptions.

Just for the record, sleazenation, that "Willy" thread is not even classified as an SBR thread, so it is even less of a proper example of what would go on in an SBR forum.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:31 / 27.03.07
I would certainly like to see the SBR/S&H forum, and would definitely post in it. I feel that we've seen some really good, positive examples of possible S&H topics (I'm thinking in particular of Justrix's thread here) and some less successful attempts like the "Chop off my willy" thread which seems to have spiralled into awkward territories with some posters showing a less productive* side once the timeliness of the thread's events faded. I don't feel that the latter thread is any reason not to go ahead with an S&H forum, but we're establishing a bit of a spectrum for how that forum's threads might go, things to watch out for in terms of respecting other posters and their opinions within the space, et cetera. It actually makes me want the forum more, because then there would be a clearly defined space to spin off new topics to deal with certain problems/issues coming up in those kinds of thread while keeping it in the same forum (and therefore closer visually) without having to figure out if it's, say, a Head Shop topic and therefore needs people directed to it from the Conversation.

* - not quite the word I'm looking for, it's tipping my tongue and will not let itself forth.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:20 / 28.03.07
- not quite the word I'm looking for, it's tipping my tongue and will not let itself forth.

Girlfearing?
 
 
Olulabelle
12:45 / 28.03.07
That's a very polite way of putting it.
 
 
Papess
12:55 / 28.03.07
I believe the phrase should be woman-fearing.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:50 / 28.03.07
DON'T SAY THAT WORD YOU'LL SET THEM OFF!
 
 
Whisky Priestess
15:21 / 30.03.07
Somebody call?
 
 
Unconditional Love
12:54 / 31.03.07
I still think this would be a great idea, theres a thread id like to start on generational attitudes to pornography, which i suppose could go in headshop, but that doesnt cover the context i wish to approach it from, far too abstract.

Also i wouldnt mind discusssing how sexually traumatic event effect peoples sense of sexual identity and how they create a sense of sexual ambiguity, again i hestate to put them in headshop or convo because of the context created by those forums.

Basically id like to see a forum where the main body of conversation is put into the context of emotion and feeling, i dont mean the emotional extremes that appear from time to time in other forums, but a flow of emotional dialogue that engages with other aspects but predominates from an emotional perspective about how people feel and what sensations are involved, how interactions and relationships are lived away from the heady abstractions of text.

Id especially like a place to communicate about sexuality that wasnt the temple, headyshop or convo, somewhere where the topic was more central and the emotional and personal context was of more importence than the political overtones that effect other areas of the board (not to say they are not important, but sometimes they come between truthful expression and what seems permissable to express.)
 
 
Ticker
15:04 / 04.04.07
There's a bubble in the Temple about a SBR Surviving Abuse thread.

Let's talk here about guidlines we'd like for such a thread and which existing forum seems like the best host for it. Ideally I think we should have as much as this figured out before we launch it and have the mods of that forum be cool with the unique SBR guidelines of the topic.

What ya think?
 
 
Papess
15:36 / 04.04.07
Great idea, XK. Although, I have no great ideas of my own to add.
 
 
Quantum
16:35 / 04.04.07
I'd be concerned that it would be a very sensitive subject and there might be a real danger that unexamined attitudes could cause hurt feelings, anger and general chaos. All it would take is one callous or stupid post and the thread would spiral into fite club, discouraging anyone from ever discussing the topic.
If we could ensure that it was a safe space I'd be all for a discussion, but I don't want to spawn a situation where I'm sitting in front of my monitor with my face in my hands shaking my head and shouting FFS YOU INSENSITIVE ASSHAT JUST DIE crying tears of frustration and feeling guilty I've encouraged people to talk about very personal and delicate issues and open themselves up to get hurt by idiots.

Just sayin'.
 
 
Ticker
16:38 / 04.04.07
Okay well let's break it down into two things we need to figure out.

1. In what forum should a discussion about surviving abuse (both clinical and experiential viewpoints need to have space) be best placed in? Is there an existing thread people would suggest be revived?

2. For me I view this as a topic that requires willingness to create safe space for people to talk about their own stuff. A ground rule that makes sense to me is people are experts on their own feelings. There's a vast difference between the poster using language to describe their own experiences, their perceptions of other people's, and clinical and commonly held ideals. Examples in the first post of a new thread would probably be a good idea on what's a 'I feel' vs. 'I think' statements.

3. Is the board even a safe place to have a discussion like this? Should it be left off board to sites devoted to it?
 
 
Papess
16:50 / 04.04.07
3. Is the board even a safe place to have a discussion like this? Should it be left off board to sites devoted to it?

I have considered this, but I thought that this kind of discussion had not happened yet, because #3 was the general consensus already.
 
 
Ticker
16:52 / 04.04.07
X-post with the Dr. Quants.

Yeah, I'm with ya. I'm thinking it could be a shitstorm.
 
 
HCE
04:39 / 05.04.07
If we could ensure that it was a safe space I'd be all for a discussion, but I don't want to spawn a situation where I'm sitting in front of my monitor with my face in my hands shaking my head and shouting FFS YOU INSENSITIVE ASSHAT JUST DIE crying tears of frustration and feeling guilty I've encouraged people to talk about very personal and delicate issues and open themselves up to get hurt by idiots.

That's pretty much how I feel about SBR in its entirety.
 
 
*
06:33 / 05.04.07
I think a lot of things have come up on Barbelith in the past that people have been very supportive of one another for. But there's a serious danger, I think, in deliberately opening up a topic that, for many people, is unsafe to talk about outside of a confidential support-group setting or a therapy office. It shouldn't be unsafe to talk about anywhere, for the record. In an ideal world—no, in an ideal world sexual abuse would never happen, but in a better world where it did and society handled it better, it would be okay to talk about like any other serious subject. But in this world we live in, abusers have power, it's possible for Barbelith's semi-anonymity to be compromised, and someone talking about their history of abuse here in open forums could conceivably open themselves up to retaliation, or to repeat abuse from someone else who manages to track them down. That's an outside chance, but quite plausible given past events on the board.

There's also the possibility of legal ramifications. If someone identifies an abuser on the boards, true or not, it'll open Tom up to a libel suit—as well as, perhaps, a legal responsibility to turn the information over to the police, especially if the abuse is ongoing. If someone discloses that they themselves have a history as an abuser, think of the repercussions of that.

That's barring the virtual certainty that someone or ones in a vulnerable state will experience extreme discomfort, will be targeted by some harasser on the boards, and may suffer harm because of it, even if there's no real-world contact.

You all know I like the idea of a SBR forum. I believe anyone's welcome to open up whatever topic of conversation ze likes, provided it's not hate speech or illegal for some other reason. Barbelith has always been about accepting the consequences of whatever you choose to post online. I'm just not feeling like a "disclose your history with sexual abuse" thread is a good idea.
 
 
Quantum
10:02 / 05.04.07
My original intent was to start a thread discussing the social implications and massive culture of denial, and trying to avoid personal revelations and experiences. Rather than testimonials or histories I wanted to talk about abuse survival in general, the commonalities many people experience and most obvious psychological effects into adult life, that sort of thing. Unfortunately, I think people would very quickly bring it back to personal experience, and then someone sensitive like Scarlett 156 might merrily weigh in and poop in the pool so to speak.
 
 
Papess
12:11 / 05.04.07
...a thread discussing the social implications and massive culture of denial, and trying to avoid personal revelations and experiences. Rather than testimonials or histories I wanted to talk about abuse survival in general,...

Quantum, that is exactly the focus that such a thread would need. I created this thread in Creation, to have a space in which to deal with the more personal and intimate nature of abuse, without having a critical analysis taken of details, or judgments made. It's an outlet, anyway, that may allow for balance in a more general, less personalized discussion of abuse. I could be just very hopeful.
 
 
Quantum
13:45 / 11.04.07
*later* I'm glad I didn't start a survivor thread in case Epop had blundered into it with his demented assertions.
 
 
Ticker
19:09 / 11.04.07
well some of what he was saying was potentially valid, however the way he said it rendered it useless.

I'm glad you didn't start the thread because the board's just not that kind of safe space.
 
 
*
19:43 / 11.04.07
I think the things he was saying that were valid (i.e. when supporting someone who's suffered sexual trauma, don't be sexual with them) would have been more than negated in the context of such a thread by the things he was saying that were offensive stereotypes (i.e. women who have been raped sleep around a lot).
 
 
Unconditional Love
16:09 / 12.04.07
I think there is a context survivor issues can be discussed in, that looks at the social stigma, politics, psychology and sociology of survivors and the issues they face.

If it becomes a no go subject on barbelith when its willing to discuss the intellectual ideas of self professed pedophile and pederast authors such as hakim bey etc, i think thats very wrong.

If epop and his nath ideas are responsible for that state of affairs, then it brings my suspicions into correct focus.
 
 
Papess
16:56 / 12.04.07
Is it possible, at least, to create a policy/guidelines for SBR threads? something like:

1. All claims of abuse are to be accepted as true, and at face value.

2. Using offensive language is not permitted.

3. Using survivor status as justification for being offensive is not permitted.

A little vague, but just an example, and as we learn more it can develop. Having these things stated, will at least resolve some confusion.
 
 
Saturn's nod
17:48 / 12.04.07
I just started a thread about skills for accompanying people who are themselves in recovery from sexual assaults in Temple, and the question of how it could be okay to talk about survivor experience on Barbelith was raised in the Epop banning thread, too, if you're interested and hadn't already noticed.
 
 
Quantum
18:03 / 12.04.07
I think there is a context survivor issues can be discussed in, that looks at the social stigma, politics, psychology and sociology of survivors and the issues they face. wolfangel

That's the sort of angle I was aiming at originally, as I think it's less emotive to talk about the cultural effects and so on rather than the personal impact. I think personal experience might come in quite quickly and complicate matters, but maybe that's one way to approach it.
I'd quite like to talk about the culture of silence and denial for example, but a friend has just reported their abuser for having contact with young children and anger is likely to creep into my posting. I don't trust myself to discuss the brush-it-under-the-carpet attitude to abuse without getting shouty.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:18 / 12.04.07
I think perhaps that is some of the challenge, trying to address the whole area without getting shouty as you say. Perhaps thats why the creative thread is a good thing as well because more shouty emotive content can be expressed there safely, because it is such an emotive area obviously its difficult to be restrained when talking about it, but i feel as a survivor and to be taken seriously by society it needs to be approached as open communication.

For example i have suggested to my therapist that a conference is a better idea than a rally about the issue, and also to invite as many professionals in the area as survivors, also to look at the knock on effect of sexual abuse and how it effects men and women in relation to authority, i know from figures that indicate a high percentage of the male prison population before they got to prison were abused either physically or sexually before age 18, 80% if i remember correctly from my therapist.

Also the behaviors of addiction and alcoholism have to be taken into consideration, there are alot of social ramifications attached to abusive behavior. But in order for survivors to be taken more seriously the format of attempts to engage with the surrounding culture need to be resolved in what are perceived as more acceptable. I take my point from mental health service survivors whom are now beginning to employ themselves as trainers to health professionals and hold and run annual conferences.

For survivors to reach a point where they have a similar platform and for male and female organisations to integrate into a social force would be fantastic, my therapist has been running courses for the police and prison officers finding some of them are drawn to there jobs because of abusive history's, also making appearances on television and radio of late, things are beginning to move in a direction where by abusers will be held more accountable for there actions and survivors will receive more help and less stigma. Its the stigma that allows abusers to keep abusing imo. After my therapists t.v appearance for example he recieved over 2 days solid worth of helpline calls.

Groups in America are already beginning to hold conferences and greater awareness is growing in Canada, New Zealand and Australia. Its an area that is as much about children's rights as it is adult survivors, the social consequence of adult survivors is horrendous to the social system from crime committed because of lack of therapy or misdiagnoses by the mental health system. Its not the fault of the justice system or health system, but a society that has turned its head for far too long and ignored violence sexual or otherwise to children and the effects and scars that leaves as an adult. Thats not to play down anybody else's abuse at any point in there life, but not talking and communicating about this in a less emotive adult manner is a huge part of the problem.

Its because the language to do so either lays with the professionals who provide treatment or with the survivors and there friends and relatives who are understandably emotive, some kind of half way point of dialog needs to be created so expression is less emotive and more effective socially, but that takes beginning to learn to communicate about the issues involved at a social level and making those issues matter to society.

Its alot of work but its slowly starting.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:28 / 12.04.07
On the point of safety i agree there isnt in all probability a great deal barbelith can provide as a safe space for therapy like services, and i dont think it should be applied in such a way to this space, some of my own previous posts have come to close to that for my liking as have some irrational outbursts, i would sincerely like to see more discussion of social consequences for society at large to allow survivors to go untreated or unhealed and why so many people keep this a secret when i believe figures suggest 1 in 3 women in the u.k are abused (physically,sexually) before age 18 and 1 in 4 men. if those figures bare any truth, my question is why?

A culture of self harm and abuse, it really needs to be looked at as a cultural problem as well as on an individual basis.
 
 
Quantum
15:03 / 13.04.07
NSPCC research shows that a significant minority of children suffer serious abuse or neglect:

* Seven per cent of children experience serious physical abuse at the hands of their parents or carers during childhood.
* One per cent of children experienced sexual abuse by a parent or carer and another three per cent by another relative during childhood. Eleven per cent of children experience sexual abuse by people known but unrelated to them. Five per cent of children experience sexual abuse by an adult stranger or someone they have just met.
* Six per cent of children experience serious absence of care at home during childhood.
* Six per cent of children experience frequent and severe emotional maltreatment during childhood.
 
 
Quantum
15:05 / 13.04.07
That middle part adds up to 20% if I'm reading it right, 1 in 5 children suffered sexual abuse.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:45 / 13.04.07
The sheer scale is staggering, isn't it.
 
 
Papess
22:02 / 14.04.07
I would to link people to this survivor's online support forum.

From that site:
"Please keep in mind that the internet is a public place,
and that there are perpetraitors sometimes posing as
victims seeking to misslead anyone they can. Please
try not to reveal ANY personal information about
yourself like your gender, age, where you live, your real
name, school/collage you attend, or where you
work, for your safety. Many of us were not protected as
children, and therefore have had to learn to protect our
selves, stay safe! Togather we can make a differance
while supporting and encouraging each other on the path
towards victory.
The Support Forum is modulated by fellow survivors and
not by trained professionals, the effects of child sexual
abuse on teen/adult survivors can be devastating, and
couseling is recomended for all survivors"


I particularly like the bit about learning to protect oneself.

They also have an art gallery, here.

Another gallery for survivors of abuse at Survivor Arts Foundation.
 
 
Saturn's nod
08:43 / 17.04.07
Just a headsup: new Tracey Emin art thread in AF&D, relevant to survivor art discussions I think.
 
 
Papess
12:48 / 17.04.07
That is a great thread. I was thinking of starting a thread about survivor art in that forum, I just don't go there very often (to AFD forum), and my knowledge of art and artists is very limited.
 
  

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