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Sex and Relationship forum

  
  

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The Strobe
22:28 / 20.04.06
Sibyline, I think your points you made after my behemoth of a post (apologies for length, btw) were interesting and I appreciate them all. However, then you do go and spoil things with this:

isn't it interesting what gets labeled trivial and what doesn't, considering how many people snicker at the mere mention of dungeons and dragons?

Please bear in mind that Barbelith has a very long history, all things considered, and the list of fora we currently have established has existed quite a while. Games & Gameplay nearly didn't happen.

Comments like that imply that "if "games & gameplay" got created, then so should forum x". Things don't work like that. Games & Gameplay sets no precedent, it just shows what is possible, and using it as a bargaining chip doesn't work.

What we like to do - indeed, what makes us - in real life does not translate easily to the internet. Whilst I have few identifying marks here, I have a very public web presence - and it is public because I chose it to be so - and it is as selectively public as I can make it. Even if I wanted to respond to some threads, I would have to choose not to, as "Paleface" is a compromised identity. I enjoy posting on this board mainly because (apart from with friends who are on the board already) I generally don't discuss things elsewhere like I do here; I use different mannerisms, shorter sentences, fewer references. It works the other way; "sex & relationships" is very important to my current relationships, and the amount of sex I am having right now - which you could argue are crucial to "me being me" - but that does not make them prime candidates for discussing online.

From my experience of it, Barbelith is comprehensive, and very flexible, but it does not need to be all-encompassing, or quite so granular, as this thread makes out.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
23:52 / 20.04.06
paleface, i had no intention of implying what you thought i implied in your post. i am in no way questioning g&g's status and have tried as much as possible to make my arguments without in any way disrespecting it. i was responding to a post that was trivializing my concerns, by simply saying that people value priorities differently, and asking people here to think about what those priorities are.

i think it's also important to consider that a lot of these trends are self-perpetuating. given the lack of this forum relationships forum, for instance, i seem to be spending most of my barbelith time discussing meta-issues, which i don't consider a total waste since i'm learning a lot, but isn't really at the heart of how i want to be spending my time online.

there are aspects of my lived life that i don't discuss online either. it's all within our prerogatives to do that. i am at the moment attempting to be with you all because i've been told that you're an interesting, intelligent bunch of people. it's one thing if i'm the only person who's willing to discuss the issues that i've outlined previously. the fact is that other people are too. i don't know how many constitute a critical mass, but i don't ultimately understand why we couldn't be given that opportunity.
 
 
sibyline, beating Qalyn to a Q
23:55 / 20.04.06
i feel like i've made my case to the best of my ability, and will try to refrain from posting more to this thread unless i have something new to say. if someone could forward this request to a higher-up, i would greatly appreciate it. i'm a newbie and have no mod experience, but i'm willing to become a mod to the forum if people see it fit.
 
 
Smoothly
00:42 / 21.04.06
We could invite people to start threads they think belong in the proposed forum, once we decide what its remit would theoretically be, and label them as such in the thread title. That way we can see what kind of response there is.

This sounds like a good idea to me. They could be tagged - like the STMTCG threads in Music, and if we could agree some basic rules, I'm sure the Convo mods could be relied upon to impose the new standard. Not a perfect proving ground, obviously, but we might be able to approximate the conditions.

So what would the base moderator policy be? A Revolutionish approach to thread-rot and offtopica (ie. delete if disruptive), combined with the kind of opening-post conventions in the Spectacle (eg. no lists, thread starters lead by example in their opening post...). More? Less?

Given those conditions, would some people be willing to start some of the threads they might put in this putative forum? Sibyline has one up and running at the moment, so mattvara? (id)entity? Mister Disco? Shrug? Cassandra? Whisky P? Any of the other yaysayers?

And Shrug, not to say that your REALLYGREATIDEA isn't really great, but I suspect that a anonymous suits controlled by moderators would be unfeasible. However I don't see why those reluctant to post something under their own names couldn't PM the text to a mod (or anyone they liked) to be posted on their behalf. I'd have thought that everyone could find someone on the board they trust enough, or who is disinterested enough in them, to act as proxy.
 
 
Tom Coates
06:35 / 21.04.06
The really briefest of words: All other things being equal, we don't add fora. There's absolutely nothing worse than having a part of the board that's just empty - I'm having enough trouble with the Laboratory, frankly - and we should not risk adding a new one on the offchance that it will work. Over the last - what - three years (?) we've added precisely two fora, I think - Art, Fashion & Design and Games & Gameplay. I think the latter probably was a bit half-baked and not fully worked-through when we introduced it, and I think that shows in the way that it's supposedly partially about sport but has almost no sport on it at all.

All of which is to say that we need a pretty compelling case to add a new forum and people need to know precisely what it's for, why it's different from the other fora and how to quickly and clearly communicate what would be and what would not be appropriate for it. So far in this thread I've seen a lot of ideas, but no clear consensus in any real direction (or a sense of how it would fit into and interact with the fora already in place). If people can present a clear vision of what they're after and it's convincing and we think people would use it, then I see no reason not to have it. But I don't think we're anywhere near that stage yet.

Some key questions:
* Where does it fit - is it another fora that sits alongside Head Shop, Switchboard, Lab and Temple? Or is it a Spectacle kind of thing? Or is it neither of the above (my suspicion).
* What is the core mission of the thing - relationships, sex, identity politics (currently occupying Head Shop), biology, health (currently in the Laboratory)?
* How can you explain it quickly to people - clear title and description?
* What impact would it have on the board in general and on the other fora in particular?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:44 / 21.04.06
This is pointless threadrot given what Tom just posted, but for miss wonderstarr: I don't take our Barbelith 'shop' to mean 'shop' in the sense of a store, but rather as a shortening of 'workshop'. A place to tinker with stuff. In the back of the garden. Where we get grubby and messy and fool around with grease.

(On that summary, I like the idea of a Body Shop more and more. Who's bringing the Crisco?)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:01 / 21.04.06
Tesco Crisco? Risco!

It occurs to me that if the current set of fora are unsatisfactory, the mechanism does actually exist to create one's own "custom view" mini-forum. Back in the day, we used to have markers for certain types of thread - most commonly "HIGH FIDELITY", which meant a thread in which members were invited to contribute their top five of something.

Now, one could, if one felt that "Are boxer briefs the best of both worlds?" was a S&R topic (personally, I'd say that was almost a perfect Conversation topic, but the THE HAUS LIVES COMMANDO!11!!23!!!), you could have as a topic name: SEX AND RELATIONSHIPS - Are boxer briefs the best of both worlds?" and put it in the conversation. Then, using Barbelith's new yahoo search function (topic on this on page 2 of the Policy), you could search for the phrase "Sex and reltaionships", and get a list of topics so titled - a sort of virtual forum.
 
 
Smoothly
13:17 / 21.04.06
I think the only problem with that is that for some of these threads to work, and for people to feel confident in starting them, I believe the remit of Conversation mods (which excludes deleting off-topic comments and thread rot) is too weak for some of these discussions. However, if Convo mods were mandated to behave slightly differently in threads marked ‘S&R’ or whatever, then I think the virtual forum idea could work, or at least be a decent pilot.

However, my main concern remains (and was deepened when I scanned this thread to assess the likely core user base of such a forum, and found barely 10) that there still isn’t a sufficient number of participants to propel more than a handful of (very slow) discussions.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
13:35 / 21.04.06
Tesco Crisco? Risco!

Crisco is pretty 70's.

You are to blame if this laughing fit ends in a heart attack.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
14:13 / 21.04.06
I don't know - the Games threads in Conversation used to make me want to have another drink, late at night, and then kill myself, but now they have their own forum, it seems as if a lot of fairly amusing/interesting stuff has been discussed that otherwise possibly wouldn't have been. The mooted Sex and Relationships forum might be the same. Pun intended, but to a certain extent, if you build it, they will come.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
14:23 / 21.04.06
Also, if there's a problem with bandwith (and I've got no idea if this is the case, or in fact, of what 'bandwith' actually means,) couldn't the Lab and the Switchboard, esentially, be conflated? Damnit?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:05 / 21.04.06


This is pointless threadrot given what Tom just posted, but for miss wonderstarr: I don't take our Barbelith 'shop' to mean 'shop' in the sense of a store, but rather as a shortening of 'workshop'. A place to tinker with stuff. In the back of the garden. Where we get grubby and messy and fool around with grease.


Ah, more of a shed than a shop!
 
 
Aertho
15:14 / 21.04.06
Tt.

The Love Shack

surely.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:51 / 21.04.06
The Bordello?

See, I don't think I'd ever post there. But I don't in AF&D either, and it seems to survive fine without me. I still have the reservations I expressed ages upthread, but they're not objections, just things I'd rather were borne in mind were such a thing to happen.

(I know this doesn't add much, but I just thought I'd say my views haven't really changed, rather than restating them again).

That said, G&G was an absolute Godsend- the gaming threads, such as they were, tended to be rather catch-all, and if anyone tried to start a new one (on, say, a particular game) I seem to recall they got told to keep it in the one thread, because "we've already got a thread for that". Which made for crap discussion, really. Stuff like Randy's fantastic shmup thread would never have had a home here back then, and that would have been a real shame.

I'm sure various people feel the same way about S&R. The question is, really, how many. (Or I guess was, prior to Tom's post above, anyway).
 
 
Alex's Grandma
15:58 / 21.04.06
Well that or The Torture Garden
 
 
petunia
17:48 / 21.04.06
n00b speaks sa brain:

* Where does it fit - is it another fora that sits alongside Head Shop, Switchboard, Lab and Temple? Or is it a Spectacle kind of thing? Or is it neither of the above (my suspicion).
Revolution for body advice and stuff, Spectacle for exhibitionist and voyeur threads :-)
I see the prospective thread as a mixture of the two - theory and debate mixed with action and physical interaction (to bludgeon the two 'realms' into ugly boxes..) Sort of below the temple and above ad&f.

* What is the core mission of the thing - relationships, sex, identity politics (currently occupying Head Shop), biology, health (currently in the Laboratory)?
Perhaps a place for us to discuss aspects of the 'self'. But by self i mean in a more 'chinese' sense of the bodymind that isn't subject to the cartesian split.

Wellbeing might be a suitable cover-word - wellbeing of body, of emotions, of relationships and social interactions. I see is as more concerned with 'me right here' than theoretical considerations, so it would leave discussion of biology to the Lab, but would contain discussion of physical health.. The difference between "What role does vitamin b play on the structure of the brain?" and "how can i ensure a good vitamin b intake?"

* How can you explain it quickly to people - clear title and description?
The Body Shop: Health, Wellbeing, Interaction, Sex and Love.
"the place to take your 'issues'" :-)

* What impact would it have on the board in general and on the other fora in particular?
The impact would be massive. Like LSD in the water supply!!!

um.. sorry...

Obviously it would take away some of the 'traffic' from certain fora - Elements of psychology and bodywork may move from the temple (though there's an argument to be made that these elements are dealt with in a more 'spiritual' fashion in the temple, and some people would prefer to talk about their body or psychology in a more secular fashion). Certain issues with identity politics would move over (for example "how do i tell my parents that i'm ..." might be better dealt with in 'body shop' than in head shop or convo - forgive me if i'm wrong..). There are also threads in the convo that might like their own forum - the poly/mono thread and the excersise thread spring to mind.

I feel there may well be room for such a forum, but i agree with the idea of a 'testing period' - If people would like to flag threads as prospective entries to the new forum, we could get a good idea of the demand for such a place. This thread (here; now!) could be a useful place to identify those threads that already exist which we feel would fit well..
 
 
*
18:32 / 21.04.06
It might be worth adding that for people who really don't want to see conversations about sex, having a dedicated forum for them could be a welcome relief. I don't know if that's been brought up here yet.

And the tendency for the forum to be cluttered with "How do I ask X out?" kinds of situation-specific questions/requests for advice can be alleviated in part by having a S&R Q&A and/or an S&R Advice thread for people to play in.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
20:39 / 21.04.06
If dick-waving is you thing, then I struggle to believe that Barbelith is going to your venue of choice.

This seems a little naive, especially given current circumstances. One might once have struggled to believe that Barbelith would be the venue of choice for those whose "things" were Holocaust denial or constant insinuations about those attention seeking feminist rape victims, but one would have been proved sadly wrong.

The latter seems particular relevant here: many posters are becoming disinclined to post anything on Barbelith as a result of Shadowsax's continued presence, but to expect people to willingly divulge anything about their sexual history, practices or desires on a board where he and his ilk are free to roam and contribute seems highly unrealistic. I'm willing to talk about my body and my sexuality with people I trust and respect - I'm never going to do it on a messageboard which is home to slavering bigots, their apologists, or even hapless crazies who have an axe to gring with the quote-unquote "big boys" and might use any, um, axe they find lying around.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
22:30 / 21.04.06
slavering bigots

I rather think you mean slathering bigots Gundetta.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
02:16 / 25.04.06
It might be worth adding that for people who really don't want to see conversations about sex, having a dedicated forum for them could be a welcome relief.

If we (that is, Tom) go ahead with an S&R forum (I'm for it, personally), we should probably title it 'Sex, Relationship and Body forum- NSFW'. This wouldn't just protect people who access Barb' in a work environment, but give people a general 'heads-up' about the content. If somebody wanted to start an earnest thread along the lines of 'my partner and I want to try anal sex, any advice?' under the current system it'd end up in Convo alongside the Lovely Pictures for Haus thread and other PG-13 goodness.
To respond to G for Gundetta: you have some very valid concerns, there are people who'd sign up for Barbelith and then abuse the S&R forum. So here's an idea: remember the in-joke about having a Sex forum that only a select few Barbelites were allowed to enter? Well, would that be such a bad idea in practice? How about only allowing members who have made, say, 100 posts or more to view and participate in the Sex forum? That way we'll be able to weed out the 'slathering bigots' before they're allowed to go into a 'sensitive' area.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
04:45 / 25.04.06
Except there are slavering, and slathering, idiots who have quite definitely posted more than 100 posts. Not that I could name any off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are some.

What does NSWF mean, anyhow?
 
 
*
05:08 / 25.04.06
NSFW stands for Not Safe For Work. Not sure what NSWF means— North, South, West, Fuck?
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
06:29 / 25.04.06
I'd disagree that somebody who posted here frequently wouldn't understand what the board finds acceptable and unnaceptable. Even a fairly attentive lurker could see we're not one of those ALL-CAPS-EVERY-OTHER-WORD-IS-F*G-OR-N*GGA kind of boards. Also, nobody would lurk long enough to make 100 posts in order to troll the S&R forum, there are far easier ways for trolls to get their kicks.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
06:58 / 25.04.06
Actually, we've had plenty of trolls who have racked up more than 100 posts, partly due to our rather slow-food approach to banning, and plenty of people who have racked up far more than a hundred posts and still don't really seem to get the project.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:20 / 26.04.06
WHAT HAVE I BEEN THINKING?

Of course we should have an S&R forum. Just so we can call it the Knocking Shop.



Apologies. Back to the thread at hand...
 
 
Olulabelle
14:40 / 26.04.06
I'm confused about the slavering bigots now and I don't know what they should correctly be doing...

Wouldn't having a hardcore members only S&R forum be asking for lots of 'you elitist Barberoyalty f**ks' type trouble? I think we'd either have to have a new forum open to everyone or no forum at all.
 
 
Princess
00:32 / 29.05.06
Is this still in consideration? Becuase I would totally dig it. Body Mysteries rock. If it is still in consideration, are we meant to be posting "mock bodyshop" threads in conversation yet?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
08:15 / 29.05.06
Some people have already. Have a look down the list and maybe back a few pages too. They are marked SBR in the title.
 
 
Ticker
18:01 / 30.05.06
As a new member I'd be very sad to be on the outside of such an interesting forum.
I've seen a lot of threads on body issues, gender issues, relationships, porn, bdsm, facial cleansing, tattoos, and the like that might be well suited for such a place.

In terms of keeping it hospitable, so far I have been impressed with people respecting the 'low snark' tags on the 101 threads floating about. I suspect that some threads in the Relation-Shop might do well to be snarky and argumentative if they are productive and clearly marked as such. Constructive heated debate with established respect might need to happen around some of these issues.

As compared to other boards, Barbelith seems to be very good at self policing. People make a definite effort to conform to the requests of the thread synopsis.

In terms of anonymous posting, there are a lot of tricks for how to present information without it being obviously personal information. I've spotted a few times when people elected to PM each other in the discussion to clarify something they did not wish to post to the public thread.

...and didn't Whiskey Priestess ask that the forum be bright pink?
 
 
*
19:03 / 30.05.06
Relation-Shop. XK, if you came up with that, it's genius.
 
 
Ticker
19:20 / 30.05.06
thank ye. I rather liked it.
:scampers off blushing:
 
 
Princess
19:51 / 01.06.06
Ah, my bad. I see it now. Thankye.
 
 
SteppersFan
12:46 / 07.06.06
I was just wondering if the added ingredient which might give the S&R forum sufficient weight and differentiation from the other fora to make it viable independently would be to make it Sex, Relationships and Families.

I think the upsides to that idea are:
* families are one possible corrollary / conclusion of relationships and sex
* families and childcare look like subjects that are only partially addressed by HeadShop and Laboratory yet big and crunchy enough to be worth discussion
* a significant minority of lithers have children, and as the Barbelith population gets older, many more are likely to spawn - and not only will they be increasingly interested in the subject, but may require some coverage of family matters to maintain their interest in the forum.

Downsides to this idea:
* sex in particular and relationships to a lesser degree is a powerful subject in its own right not linked to procreation and children / families may blur the focus
* it's possible that most Barbelith parents may actually come here to think and talk about stuff that has NOTHING to do with their identity as parents
* you could make an effort to talk about families (and sex, and relationships) in Headshop and Convo, and to a lesser degree in Switchboard and Temple

Just a thought.
 
 
alas
14:36 / 07.06.06
Continuing to kick a dead thread, but ...Hmm...prolly because of "family values" here in le US, I'd have a pretty squicky reaction to anything with "family" in it. Not just people with kids, but many people with parents might feel a little put off...esp. if they were, say, wanting to talk about fisting techniques or scat. f'r instance.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:40 / 07.06.06
Equally, many people might be even less comfortable discussing their sexual lives and practices in a forum with the word 'family' in the title.
 
  

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