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Sex and Relationship forum

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15:57 / 16.03.07

I think the Barbelith benefits tremendously from the way these topics need to be approached to fit in with the existing fora.

I agree. And this is part of the reason that I’m for the idea of a new forum. Part of the problem at the moment, as I see it, is that there are conversations about health/bodies/sexuality that are not Head Shop, Lab or Switchboard threads but suffer from the light-touch moderation in the Conversation. So I think there is more of a danger of Barbelith being like the rest of the internet by forcing anecdotal, unfocussed or light-weight thread about SBR to be placed in the Convo. Plus it makes them harder to avoid. So following your points, it’s (arguably) also unfair to compel Flyboy to choose between being an audience for other people’s sex lives etc or not visiting the Conversation. So, from that point of view, unless we prohibit people from posting SBR topics to the Convo, I don’t see how the status quo is an improvement.

More generally, I still think there will be a place for Head Shoppy discussions about sex (ie. in the Head Shop), discussions of sexual politics (in the Switchboard) etc. I’d just like there to be a space for discussions that fall outside the remits of those forums to have somewhere else to go where they won’t be derailed as easily, fall off the front page as quickly, and won’t trespass across people’s TMI boundaries as unexpectedly.

Otherwise, what PS says.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:06 / 16.03.07

I'd very much like people not to type out "um" when they seek to say "you are wrong". Onomatopeiata in general are problematic, but this one particularly so. Also, it makes it hard for me to become and remain tumescent.

One question, Smoothly, is whether it _would_ change the level of discussion from the level in the Conversation. I've been thinking of it primarily as a subject-specific annexe of the Conversation. It is possible that the quality of discussion about sex will go up just because it has a nice new forum and wants to make it look nice, but I don't think it's guaranteed..

16:39 / 16.03.07

No, I don’t think it’s guaranteed either. I also wonder if there are enough discussions to be had. In fact, at the beginning of this discussion I opposed the idea, but found myself being talked around.
It looks like there’s some momentum behind this and think it’s worth a go. I honestly believe there have been discussions in the Conversation that would have benefited from a more conducive environment. Not wanting to be too Field Of Dreams about this, but I’m hoping that if we fertilise the ground, quality stuff will grow.

16:58 / 16.03.07

Noted, Haus. I'll not stand in the way of your bloated swelling.

*

17:12 / 16.03.07

By contrast, while previously passionately in favor of this forum, I'm now indifferent, and more importantly I don't think it will happen— see much of the rest of policy. Tagging threads is fine by me and allows people to avoid the threads they're not interested in (gourami). And at the beginning of a thread that we want to be treated a certain way, we can state those wishes.

17:35 / 16.03.07

I have a lot of sympathy with that view, except that tagging threads doesn’t stop them being vanished by the churn rate of the Conversation, and a large proportion of Convo mods feel either indifferent to, or even unwilling to read, SBR threads. I think one of the strengths of Barbelith is the way mods nurture quality discussions in the (non-Convo) forums, and I think delicate topics in particular benefit from some shepherding and a hospitable environment.
But I do think we have a way to go in establishing a viable user-base, and a consensus on its remit, before we involve Tom though.

Leigh Monster loses its cool

17:50 / 16.03.07

If It is possible that the quality of discussion about sex will go up just because it has a nice new forum and wants to make it look nice, then doesn't that alone make it worth a shot? I'm a little down right now because I was interested in the cheating thread, and it's veered off into discussion of a single anecdote-heavy but mostly nonresponsive post. Is it unlikely that this post would have been handled differently if the thread were in a more focused forum?

I think the risk that an H&SBR forum would dissolve into whinging about personal psychodrama isn't that high. The Temple necessarily a space where people talk about personal experience quite a bit, and the discussions that take place there are still very successful.

19:41 / 16.03.07

I have a lot of sympathy with that view, except that tagging threads doesn’t stop them being vanished by the churn rate of the Conversation, and a large proportion of Convo mods feel either indifferent to, or even unwilling to read, SBR threads.

If it is not too much trouble for me to pretend I just don't see a thread titled "SBR:Teh Sexy Gunplay and Why I'm So Great At It", why is it a big deal to have to click on the second page of threads?

20:26 / 16.03.07

It's not a 'big deal', but are you arguing that threads aren't less likely to get attention when they drop off the first page of a forum?

To put it another way, what is the point of having different forums at all?

I would be really interested to hear in more detail your objections, gourami. As I said, as things stand I'm supporting the idea, but I'm not wedded to it.

At the moment, we have this:

1. I do not think putting a sign on the door stating that you're behind it doing X, Y, and Z is a tremendous improvement on doing those things where I can see them.
2. Being compelled to choose between being an audience for other people's flirtations, sex lives, or virtual genitalia or not visiting Barbelith is unfair.
3. Most importantly, the kind of information that comes out in, for example, a Head Shop thread about sexuality or gender or body image is going to be different from a Sex Armoury thread. Compare, if you must, the thread on 'Cheating' to previous threads on relationships not built on monogamy.

I don't really understand (1) beyond the possibility that not only are conversations about sex repulsive to you but so is the knowledge that those conversations are happening on another page. In which case I wonder how you're coping with using the internet at all. I don't mean that flippantly. At the moment it sounds like someone who, say, not only objects to reading foul language, but also to reading the words 'foul language'. Do you see what I mean?

(2) is a bit opaque too. I don't think there would be any such compulsion. If anything it makes it easier not to be in that audience because those discussions are neatly bounded off.

I think I covered (3) previously.

To be honest, a lot of this debate is making me wonder more and more about what it is about sex that makes people so uncomfortable. I understand the point Flyboy was getting at about how a preoccupation with sex can too easily find its way into conversations uninvited. But again, I'd have thought that was an argument for people who do want to talk about what their winky thinky 'getting a room', as it were.

20:48 / 16.03.07

I was under the impression that people thought Barbelith could do with a Health and Sexuality forum because posters were having and showing a desire to have sensible, measured conversation which came under that banner.

I don't understand why there is a feeling that the forum would be filled with flirtation and 'ick' threads when in fact the ones that have so far been created have demonstrated a willingness to discuss things to the usual Barbelith standards.

I personally like the idea, I like the orderly neatness of threads that fit in that forum going there, but then I regularly sort my change into size order. YMMV.

I think having a Health and Sexuality forum is not the same as having a place where people <3 people and make vague sexual suggestions and I am quite surprised at the assumption that it would turn into myspace or LJ. If you just go back and read any of the threads that have been started and tagged (with the exception of the 'cheating' thread which isn't actually that bad in it's entirety) you can clearly see the standard of the discussion is way above that. In fact it's actually quite insulting to those who have participated to suggest that their thoughts belong somewhere more ordinary.

02:28 / 17.03.07

To be honest, a lot of this debate is making me wonder more and more about what it is about sex that makes people so uncomfortable. I understand the point Flyboy was getting at about how a preoccupation with sex can too easily find its way into conversations uninvited. But again, I'd have thought that was an argument for people who do want to talk about what their winky thinky 'getting a room', as it were.

Precisely, I think they should get a room, and I think the room should be someplace else on the internet. Let me reiterate that I think there are plenty of ways to talk about sex that fit into Barbelith, and that in fact I think being made to fit into the existing fora is a good way to raise the level of discussion about such matters. It sounds like a bit of a personal attack against me to cast me as somebody who is unable to 'cope' with using the internet. Why is it necessary to ascribe to me an inability to 'cope' just because I think there are better places to seek attention than here?

I do not think the 'foul language' comparison is valid. It would be more accurate to compare it to objecting to a thread title which contains an offensive term it proposes to discuss. That is different from a thread titled 'discussion of offensive terms.'

*

04:30 / 17.03.07

Even though I've already said I'm not invested in this idea anymore, gourami, I feel a little hurt by the position that I see you taking here, or more precisely the tone of indignation that I think I'm hearing from you. I agree that there's no reason to cast you as someone lacking coping skills—I think you've shown yourself to be someone very capable of coping with all kinds of contentious things. But there's also no reason that I can see to cast posters who want a dedicated space in a community they already feel comfortable in to talk about sexuality, health, and sexual politics as attention-seekers, any more than you might say that the folks in Comics or Film or Head Shop are attention-seeking by posting in their dedicated fora.

04:30 / 17.03.07

Olulabelle, I will go back and have another read through the tagged threads and give it another think. Perhaps I am not judging the matter fairly on the basis of what's been presented. I will try to look at what's there and not what I assume is there.

04:51 / 17.03.07

I cross-posted with you, id, and will send you a PM to address the question of hurt feelings.

05:49 / 17.03.07

...that I think there are plenty of ways to talk about sex that fit into Barbelith, and that in fact I think being made to fit into the existing fora is a good way to raise the level of discussion about such matters.

Would incorporating discussions on religion, spirituality, magick, and vast array other Temple related threads be confined to work within the parameters of the Convo or Headshop? Well, of course not. There are completely different ground rules for each of those fora. Which, is something that the subjects of sex, health concerns and relationship issues can benefit from - Some guidelines that head a forum, to align the discussion and establish the boundraies that will allow the safe discussion people are requesting. It is a bit ridiculous to not want discussion of a sexual or taboo nature to degenerate, and yet, not provide the structure in which to prevent that.

People here want to be able to discuss sex, health and relationships - with a defined set of rules - whatever they may be, which will provide the safe structure within Barbelith. By defining the boundaries of the forum we can create a (somewhat) controlled environment for such extremely (quite obviously), delicate topics.

That is more what a Sex, Health & Relationship forum is for me, at least - A safe place, with defined rules, which can be pointed and/or linked to so that there is no confusion about what is expected. It gives the dignity and structure needed to elevate the level of discussion.

It just makes sense, and so what if it makes Barbelith sexier.

*

07:53 / 17.03.07

Thank you for your kindly PM, gourami.

Trix, it seems to me that increased moderator powers, especially the ability to ban people from just the SBR forum, would be a help with maintaining the kind of structure you're talking about. And yet it seems we can't have that, for reasons beyond any of our control.

ONLY NICE THINGS

11:24 / 17.03.07

Yes, that's not going to happen.

So, there's a lot of discussion here, but I'd be interested to know how many people feel they would regularly use such a forum, and how many people would like it to exist, either as a place to view and contribute or as a place to put topics which would be too constrained by the standards of the Lab or the Head Shop (hopelessly debased as they are) and not constrained enough by the Conversation, or indeed to get such threads out of the rest of Barbelith?

A simple yes would suffice, for numbers, to the questions:

i) Do you want this forum
ii) Would you regularly post in this forum

11:58 / 17.03.07

Yes
Yes

It sounds like a bit of a personal attack against me to cast me as somebody who is unable to 'cope' with using the internet. Why is it necessary to ascribe to me an inability to 'cope' just because I think there are better places to seek attention than here?

gourami, I didn't cast you as somebody who is unable to cope with the internet. I wondered how you were coping given that a simple google search will often throw up signs of conversations of a sexual nature happening elsewhere. I just don't understand point (1) of your objection that I do not think putting a sign on the door stating that you're behind it doing X, Y, and Z is a tremendous improvement on doing those things where I can see them.

This did come up obliquely earlier on in this thread when Phex expressed a concern that under the current arrangement a thread about anal sex would end up in Convo alongside the Lovely Pictures for Haus thread and other PG-13 goodness.
In spite of this, I started an SBR thread about Anal Sex, and no one seemed to mind. Is that the kind of title you don't want to see?

Is it that you just don't want to see evidence of such discussions on Barbelith, or that you don't want those discussions to take place in a separate forum? I'm still a bit confused.

ONLY NICE THINGS

12:28 / 17.03.07

The wide-eyed ad hominem schtick is already boring, Smoothly. Gourami spent a post more than was necessary engaging after "I just don't understand what it is about sex that makes people so uncomfortable", and I would suggest being grateful for being given that much house room and leaving it.

So, that's one person. The parallel questions to consider at the same time are how much time it would take to set it up - if it is any meaningful time expense, then it needs to join a queue behind applications and banning as issues for resolution - and how long we could establish as a probation period - that is, at what point we can check in and determine whether it has become great or godawful (a) and also what effect it has had on the rest of the board (b).

Also, what the rules of engagement are that will make this different from having conversations in the Conversation, and indeed whether and how the existence of the forum might also affect discussion of sex in other fora.

12:50 / 17.03.07

And I find your rulings on what is sufficient engagement with posts other than your own pretty tedious too, Haus.

I'm a little wide-eyed, but it's not schtick and I don't see the ad hominem. I genuinely don't understand the detail of gourami's objection.
I want to know what kinds of discussions/thread titles gourami doesn't want to see, and how having a separate forum is worse than having them in the Convo.

12:56 / 17.03.07

Trix, it seems to me that increased moderator powers, especially the ability to ban people from just the SBR forum, would be a help with maintaining the kind of structure you're talking about.

The structure I am talking about already exists.

Less searchable M0rd4nt

13:05 / 17.03.07

I'd be interested to know how many people feel they would regularly use such a forum, and how many people would like it to exist

I find myself sort of wanting to want it to exist, for the various good and worthy reasons put forward by the proponants of the idea. However, I just don't see it working out in practice. My feeling is that there is already a bit of a tendancy to slip into get-a-roominess and that this will likely be exacerbated by the presence of a SBR/H+S forum. I've got this horrible presentiment that despite the presence of people on the board whose wisdom and mature handlying of such topics I greatly respect, it's very likely that such a forum would rapidly become less "a place to view and contribute" and more "a place to put topics which would be too constrained by the standards of the Lab or the Head Shop (hopelessly debased as they are)".

ONLY NICE THINGS

14:26 / 17.03.07

I wondered how you were coping given that a simple google search will often throw up signs of conversations of a sexual nature happening elsewhere.

Gourami said, above:

Precisely, I think they should get a room, and I think the room should be someplace else on the internet.

I apologise, however, if I ascribed tactical intent to simple inattention.

Moving on. Justrix, I think, means that she is talking about having a set of guidelines on how discussions about sex should proceed, and having moderators willing to enforce that. What I would find interesting is to talk about, regardless of whether an SBR forum is set up, there should be such guidelines about general sexual conversation. Much of the behaviour which I personally have found eye-stabby on Barbelith has not been in S,B&R threads, and so where those S,B&R threads fit is not necessarily going to, but may, alter thos forms of behaviour.

For me, that behaviour is largely, although not exclusively, similar to the general guidelines on good behaviour in common areas in sex-positive space. Ideally, these guidelines would be built into the description text of the Forum, although we are of course in doing so acknowledging that there is a need for guidelines to be clearer up front. We could put it in the FAQ, of course, but nobody reads the FAQ, and in particular people who tend to have self-control issues do not read the FAQ.

Regrettable Juvenilia

15:02 / 17.03.07

simple google search will often throw up signs of conversations of a sexual nature happening elsewhere

Surely that depends what you're putting into Google? I know, I know, Smoothly - if it's not "huge fat cocks" then I suppose one is almost certainly a prude.

More seriously: I think Mordant has hit the nail on the head here. I think there is a big difference between what a Sexy forum would be in an idealised conception of Barbelith, and what it would be in the current reality, which is a place that loses good members every month and, let me be blunt and not worry about the inevitable accusations of elitism, is replacing them with people like Scarlett 156. Barbelith is somewhere between the West Baltimore streets and Rohan under Theoden at the moment, and it ain't pretty. All respect to Olulabelle, but I just don't see the recent threads about sex as having been all that exemplary - there have been good individual posts, but overall... I dunno. I see no way in which a Health and Sexuality forum, however noble the intentions, will not become a cesspit remarkably quickly.

15:48 / 17.03.07

...but I just don't see the recent threads about sex as having been all that exemplary - there have been good individual posts, but overall... I dunno. I see no way in which a Health and Sexuality forum, however noble the intentions, will not become a cesspit remarkably quickly.

There are pitfalls, of course. The system we currently use doesn't have failsafes, but at least a dedicated environment will give clear expectation. Regardless of whether it is perfect or not, it is defined and therefore, the thread and discussion is not subject to the mood an inappropriate environment. If you want to elevate the discussion, there needs to be a place to do that, otherwise, don't be surprised to find that the level of discussion will sink.

Just because the forum would not be perfect doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. Acting inappropriately is bound to happen, but that is not a reason to deny the structure of a sex-positive fora.

It is about as logical to me, as saying: giving out condoms in school causes promiscuity in teens.

If you are an idiot, you are going to be an idiot no matter what the forum is, (usually). Sex may be a touchy (no pun intended at all) subject for some, but not providing the proper healthy environment is only serving to perpetuate the current levels of discussion as they are now, subject to current unsuitable climates.

*

15:52 / 17.03.07

I'm in MC's camp. I would support this forum if (see almost everywhere else in Policy at the moment), but as of right now I can't muster up more enthusiasm than "It would be an interesting experiment."

Further, I wouldn't post there without (see almost everywhere else in Policy at the moment), because I wouldn't feel like it would be worth my while to be vulnerable in that way and then deal with the inevitable people who come to gawk, or those who are well-meaning but hopelessly clumsy and who will say things that are wrong and hurtful and then spend the next two pages at least refusing to see why they are wrong and hurtful.

So count me:

I. not without things that are currently unpossible
II. not without things that are currently unpossible

I'm in support of other people's freedom to try, though. Have at it.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:55 / 17.03.07

I've said before in this thread that I probably wouldn't have much interest in an SBR forum, but then a lot of people don't have an interest in Comics or Games either, but they let those of us who do exercise our foibles. I'd quite like a "non-SBR" forum, which would be just like the Convo except that nobody would be allowed to talk about their cock (or whichever is the relevant sex organ), or their m4d 53x 5k1772, or whatever.

I say if an SBR forum can be done, do it. A lot of people want it- a lot of whom will probably be prepared to work at keeping standards high. That's the only way to find out if it would work. You never know, I may even join in occasionally.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:55 / 17.03.07

Or, y'know, what id says with regards to the experiment thing.

17:18 / 17.03.07

I reallydon't know what I think about this, and how I'll respond if the forum comes into being. I'm not as pessimistic as some, but I'm far from as enthusiastic as others. What is for sure is that there are folk around here who will inevitably crank up my cringeickometer, but I suspect they won't dominate.

Count as a curious and interested if not entirely committed.

jentacular dreams

20:31 / 17.03.07

I agree with Stoats. Some members may feel that the forum will degenerate rapidly, but no-one can know for sure until it's tried (after which point it can presumably be shut down if neccessary and threads moved back to convo). Plus as the addition of fora is a road previously trodden it's not likely to be anywhere as complicated as some of the other developments proposed (though a subsequent removal might be much harder).

As for the two questions - yes and sometimes (depending on what I have to contribute).

Flyboy - i'd like to argue that scarlett doesn't epitomise all of the newer members, and that perhaps a proportion of all n00bs turn out to be, well, n0bs*. I'm not accusing you of elitism at all, but I do think that a lot of communities go through this member loss/change cycle, and that it is to an extent inevitable, with or without trolling (and indeed have read something along these lines, but I can't remember whether it was here or elsewhere*). But that's another thred (which may or may not exist).

* This may not be a permenant thing. I feel that my outlook on some things has improved over the years since I started reading the board, and that this improvement has steepened since I started contributing. In short, I hope I wasn't a dick to start with, but if I was I like to think I'm a bit less of a dick now. And I hope that I'm not the only new member who feels this way.

** I thought it was one of the is barbelith dying threads, but a quick scan through them didn't turn it up.

20:57 / 17.03.07

What is for sure is that there are folk around here who will inevitably crank up my cringeickometer, but I suspect they won't dominate.

You know when there's a really silly, obvious joke, and you struggle not to make it, but then want to say something about it, which turns out to be worse than making the joke? This is one of those times for me.

However, I echo the sentiments of Boboss; curious.

14:02 / 27.03.07

I do understand, in all seriousness, why the "Chop off my Willy" thread is not labeled, SBR. I suppose it is not a serious enough discussion.

Haus' very funny, but poignant question here, is quite possibly an example of the confusion of not having the proper space in which to discuss such topics.

I find the debate about this forum interesting from the perspective of someone who supports and actively strives for safe sexual environments, which usually includes definitions and clear boundaries, especially in the case of dealing with those that one only knows casually. I don't understand why this is not reflected in the "physical" environment, in general.

Now, in terms of Barbelith, and in light of what Ganesh has said in his lj, I am inclined to think that others may also share similar feelings that there is much lacking on Barbelith in the way of real "safety". I agree. There isn't. In fact, the whole idea of safety on the net is a complete myth, even on Livejournal. - but, I am not here to argue one versus the other.

The idea of the SBR forum, in my mind, has the same equivalence of safety that one would in a dungeon, make safe word and know proper procedures, or one would use a condom for protection. The allegory fits quite well, in that having a distinct, defined and separate place for sex is a healthy way to deal with those topics. Just because the methods do not always protect, doesn't mean they should not be utilized in the first place. Condoms are a great example of that.

If getting "snippy" is the only way to enforce the guidelines of the fora, so be it then. Right now, the forum-culture that arises which protects a discussion, (even if it does slip, sometimes) is not being developed and defined.

14:39 / 27.03.07

i) Do you want this forum
ii) Would you regularly post in this forum

i) Yes, I expect it will be coded into the board by the time my love powered time travelling jetpack arrives from eBay. Any day now. Aaaaaany day...
ii) No, thanks. But some people would.

20:23 / 27.03.07

i)Yes. Very much.
ii)Yes. I would post in it often.

21:25 / 27.03.07

I still think such a forum would be a very bad idea largely for reasons illustrated by the chop off my willy thread.

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