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Sex and Relationship forum

 
  

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Whisky Priestess
21:45 / 03.08.05
It occurs that given the number of threads devoted to sex, relationships, crushes, engagement, babies etc., it might be an idea to have a special forum for those who:

a) have just come out of a relationship and want to talk about it A LOT
b) want to skip straight to the juicy stuff
c) want to avoid any mention or whiff of love, sex and so forth, and need a safe space in the Conversation, (i.e. someone who has been in the a) category, given a month.)

What do we think?
 
 
Smoothly
22:20 / 03.08.05
Do you think it would encourage discussions that wouldn't happen without it?
There will the same tensions we had in the debate over the Games forum, but there we had some strong arguments that certain kinds of threads had no natural place in another forum and that there were a large number of people who wanted to talk about games in a non-Conversational, non-Headshoppy, non-Labatorial, etc way. Can you think of any examples of Sex and Foreplay threads that wouldn't suit an existing forum?

Sleaze, in a F,TV&T thread mentioned that he wanted to talk about Private Eye, but that he didn't know where to start a thread about it. Arguably, there's a stronger case for a Newspapers & Magazines forum.
But, you know, I'd quite like to be talked around on this. But then I'm unfashionably fascinated by people's sex lives.
 
 
Loomis
07:48 / 04.08.05
[threadrot]

That newspaper and magazine idea is a good'un Smoothly. I often think I'd like to start a thread on an interesting news item that's not fit for Switchboard but at the same time I don't want to start stacks of threads in convo for individual little news items.

I had considered a long-running thread in convo for "Daily Interesting News Items" or summat, but in general I'm not a fan of big catch-all threads.

[/threadrot]
 
 
sleazenation
09:07 / 04.08.05
Alternatively the Books forum could have its remit extended to include print media. I realize that the addition of radio to the remit of the music forum has hardly been a resounding success, but with moderators leading the discussion a fair few interesting threads could ensue...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:26 / 04.08.05
I can't really think of a sex topic that couldn't slip easily into one of our existing fora. Maybe if WP starts a couple to show us what she means?

[offtopic]the Books forum could have its remit extended to include print media.

That's not a bad idea. Change "Books and Literature" to "The Printshop" or somesuch, and we can all bang on about magazines and papers too (says the person who hardly ever posts in Books).


[/offtopic]
 
 
Sax
11:17 / 04.08.05
B-but... there's already a Forum for sex...

 
 
Sax
11:19 / 04.08.05
Besides, I'd always be starting threads and finishing them too soon.
 
 
w1rebaby
12:01 / 04.08.05
Maybe Books and Literature should be really more Writing, whether it's in a book, a paper, on a web page? I can't think of a snappy title for that.

It wouldn't be the place to discuss news items (unless they're about books/papers/writing of course) - the subject of the news items should determine where that happened, not the fact that they were in a newspaper.

and, yeah, I can't think of a "sex forum" topic that couldn't go in an existing forum, except perhaps actual sex tips and advice, which don't seem to be vastly in demand here at the moment so could probably just go in the convo, although perhaps I've underestimated the demand and in fact Barbelith is crying out to discuss precisely which leg should go where and how buttery it should be
 
 
Ganesh
13:00 / 04.08.05
I don't think we do talk about sex much. Smut/innuendo yes, gendery stuff yes, crushes yes, but I'm not sure that stuff's actually sex, is it? I can't help feeling that, if we tried to split it off and isolate it in its own forum, most of us would succumb to terminal coyness and post little or nothing. It seems to me that the Head Shop's fine for the more theory-based sex-talk and the Conversation for anecdotal.
 
 
Ganesh
13:03 / 04.08.05
I also think we'd get sidetracked by chinstrokey discussion of what's actually covered by the term 'sex'...
 
 
Loomis
13:10 / 04.08.05
You did say chin didn't you?

Just checking.
 
 
sleazenation
13:20 / 04.08.05
OK on the extended books tip how about: "Books, print and publishing" as a handy caych all for printed and published material?
 
 
Whisky Priestess
13:28 / 04.08.05
Well, "Sex and Relationships" would really be what the putative forum covered, but I liked the echo of "Games and Gameplay" in the foreplay title. So sue me.

It's not so much that the other fora can't accommodate (ooer) the various sex/relationships threads that (ahem) arise, as that it might be useful, convenient and less forum-rotting to have them all collected in one place. I think the Conversation at times seems dominated by threads that would fit neatly into the proposed S&R forum - random examples include the Anything for Love threads, Countdown to Baby, Significant Other, Steve Got Married, Unrequited Something or Other, etc ...

Plus this way the prurient can go straight to the hot stuff and the heartbroken can avoid it. Just a thought, mind. And if it happens, can it be bright pink?
 
 
Smoothly
13:33 / 04.08.05
Ok, just to argue to pro case for a moment:

…so could probably just go in the convo [Italics mine]

This, for me, highlights something that has always bothered me slightly and could be relevant here. I think the Conversation has got a bit of an image problem. It’s seen as being a bit of a junk yard, and I sometimes feel that there’s a sense that serious discussions can’t really happen there. Sometimes threads are driven off-topic not because there’s good reason for it, but because there’s not particular prohibition against it. This happens particularly in self-indulgent relationship threads, where the temptation to make nob gags or bring Steve into it outweighs any interested in developing a discussion. I don’t want to overstate the case, and this doesn’t always happen, but I think there’s a tendency for catastrophic derailment, especially when the ‘fnarr’ reflex is tripped.

It’s striking how honest, and sincere and unironic people can be about very delicate subjects in the more serious parts of the board. Threads about sexual dynamics in the Head Shop, or Sex Majick in the Temple can be very personal, intimate and confessional, and the fora have a safe-space quality which seems to give people the confidence to talk about things they might well keep their mouth shut about in other circumstances. The pub banter atmosphere of the Conversation makes opening up about sensitive, private matters feel more risky and exposed and would possibly make people feel more awkward about raising one of the subjects WP lists in the summary.

So, I find people’s masturbatory fantasies interesting. I’d quite like to start a thread inviting people to talk about them. But where would that thread go? Probably somewhere in the top end of the board (unless an argument was made that masturbation fits in Games & Play), but where? I think most people would say that’s a Convo thread, but it would just become a thread of gags, wouldn’t it? I mean, who could resist? And who would risk even beginning to take it seriously for fear that their contribution would become the butt of the inevitable sniggerama.

Does any of that ring true? The different forums have their own cultures which nurture certain kinds of discussion. Is it possible that a Sex & Relationships forum could create an environment where people might not feel so coy?
 
 
w1rebaby
14:18 / 04.08.05
Uh, I think you're misinterpreting the use of the word "just", which in this context means "simply".

Anyway, I don't recognise this dishonest, insincere and ironic Conversation you're describing; I'm surprised by how often threads I'd consider self-indulgent "look at me" wank get lengthy and concerned responses from numerous people and how much people are willing to take them seriously. There's a certain point at which the cock jokes and Morrissey lyrics come out but that's usually down to somebody either trolling or taking themselves way too seriously (and/or deliberately ignoring perfectly good advice) for page after page. So no, it doesn't ring true for me.
 
 
Ganesh
14:21 / 04.08.05
Does any of that ring true?

Yes and no. Yes, it can all descend into fnarrdom. No, because that's not an inevitability: there have been reasonably sincere discussions of individual fetishes, for one. I do think we almost never talk about sex, though, in a serious sense that's not theory-based, so I take your point. I suspect there'd be many many more lurkers than active contributors, though...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:30 / 04.08.05
If we can't shield such a forum from googling (and I don't think you can 'partially google' in that way can you) and possibly ensure that there are anonymous suits that people can use for disclosures they may not want to put in under their own names I can see this getting horrid. First we're going to get googled under every sex term going which brings the danger of unwanted attention and troll-frenzy were we ever to reopen the gates properly, and there's also the danger of the kind of conversations that leave people feeling vulnerable.

Now, on the other side, we're probably ALREADY Googlable for every thing, but I don't know whether there could be an issue with firewalltastic stuff. We've already had issues with people posting NSFW pics and stuff in Conversation threads, do we really want to give people the excuse to post the GOATSE pic, lots? One careless pic may be all that stands between someone and continued employment. Of course, that's a risk that everyone faces immediately.

And anonymity. Most people on LJ post friends-only on personal stuff. Although Barbelith has some small protection against who can enter and shout stuff at people it doesn't offer any protection at all from who can see that. Which would be one of the main things to put me off posting in such a forum.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:51 / 04.08.05
How about, instead of a purely sex forum, a "Personal Lives" or perhaps just "Personal" forum? For talking about any personal relationship or personal life stuff: family, friend, girlfriend, boyfriend, drug addiction, whatever.

The point being, these threads focus on an individual poster's exact situation: for example, "Legba is addicted to cigarettes and greyhound racing and lives in Ballamory, what do you think he should do?", or "Legba's harrowing but ultimately life-affirming account of how he got over his fags'n'dogs habit".

As opposed to "Is Greyhound Racing ethical?" (Headshop), "New Super Dog invented" (Lab) or "How To Get Good Scores On Gray-Houndz Urban for the Xbox" (G&Gplay).

This would be for threads that are meant to be more serious than convo threads, but that exist in a special forum where we know everything's a bit sensitive and not perhaps up to the rigorous debate or mad jokery found in the others.

Like, sometimes, in the convo thread, somebody will do a post and you're not sure if they're seriously upset or just mucking about and you worry about reacting wrongly. This way, you'd know that in this forum it's serious.

Having said all that, I think we need to make it clear that most of us here aren't trained counsellors. I'm not sure I'd know what to do if someone asked for help with a drugs problem, for example. We would need to be responsible if we were giving advice.
 
 
Ganesh
21:36 / 04.08.05
Y'mean we can't take the piss when offering advice?

What's my, uh, motivation?
 
 
Smoothly
21:45 / 04.08.05
Yeah, you know I only want this if it means I can ask impertinent questions. Otherwise, *walks away*
 
 
w1rebaby
21:53 / 04.08.05
I don't really see the need for this.

Let's say I decided to post a thread about, say, a problem I have with smoking too much dope. I make an honest first post saying "look, I really do have a problem with smoking too much dope, I come home and the first thing I do is light up a joint, I never have any energy or motivation, I'm increasingly miserable and I think this is connected, has anyone else been in this situation, can anyone give me any advice?" Is that going to be treated with complete disrespect? No, we've had lots of similar threads. There may be the odd joke made but only to lighten the mood and I'd expect quite a lot of good, or at the least well-meaning, comments. People can usually tell when somebody is trying to be serious. We're not just mindless pisstakers, and in the event that there's any doubt, the balance almost always falls on the side of taking a thread seriously in my experience.

If somebody wants a space where they can post absolutely anything they want as many times as they want and they'll always receive uncritical hugs, this isn't it. But maybe it's not in their best interests to have that sort of space anyway. The people who've turned into jokes on the basis of relationship threads have been ones who have consistently ignored everything that was said to them, and the people who were initially trying to help have gotten annoyed and ended up taking the piss. I don't think the word "uncritical" should ever apply to a Barbelith thread in any forum - premature or otherwise unwarranted criticism is bad, sure, but generally posters here are fairly nice and try to avoid that.

I have to say that this is probably the board that I know of that I would get the best balance of sensible advice vs people not letting me just wank self-indulgently on, and that's just on the basis of Convo threads.

N.B. I do not have a problem with smoking dope. I don't even like the stuff. I just want to squash that one right now.
 
 
Smoothly
22:07 / 04.08.05
*hand on fridge's shoulder* You sure about that? Wanna talk about it?
 
 
Ganesh
22:28 / 04.08.05
We won't judge you, Fridge. You're among friends.
 
 
Jub
07:39 / 05.08.05
Overcoming denial is the hardest part.
 
 
Tom Coates
10:42 / 05.08.05
First things first - the Conversation is meant fundamentally for off-topic conversation, and that will mostly mean stuff that's either really informal and unstructured, or the stuff to do with interpersonal relationships and personal stuff on the board. I think by it's nature, because we need a place to let-off steam a bit with each other, it will never be (and maybe shouldn't be) taken as seriously as the rest of the board.

The other question - about a sex forum - is another question, and I have to say I'm actually finding myself quite pro the idea. It seems like it could be a good place to talk about the practicalities of sex, hints/tips, experiences and the like - stuff that basically treats sex as just as interesting a way to entertain yourself as reading a book, playing a game, listening to music and just as susceptible to examination, exploration and stuff.

I do have anxieties of course - it opens up a whole new space for people to be abusive in, and may encourage slightly more excessive flame-wars that really hurt people a lot. I'm a bit nervous as well about any the legal implications for me from such a forum as well, and perhaps a bit tense about whether or not people might say things on such a forum that they wouldn't want people to know about in their every day lives (but which people could figure out from context or from other posts). So it seems to me like a bit of a risky proposition. I could probably investigate making it possible to choose fora that are only visible if you're logged in or something, and which are therefore not visible to Google, although in a way it would be a bit of a shame to have all that shared information and not be able to get it out to other people in sexual need. I might have to put in some kind of self-declaration that you were over 18 as well.

So basically, I'm strangely intrigued by the idea, but also a little bit scared of it. It would probably create some work for me as well in setting it up, which I'm not anti - but I am nervous about. Worst still, I don't know what colour it would be.
 
 
lekvar
11:51 / 05.08.05
So basically, I'm strangely intrigued by the idea, but also a little bit scared of it.
C'mon... all the kids are doing it these days.
 
 
Laughing
11:03 / 08.08.05
I think a Sex & Relationships forum would be splendid. I was wary of the idea at first but Smoothly Weaving's post convinced me. A Sex & Relationships forum would be a place where people would discuss sexual issues (be they emotional, mechanical, medical, or whatnot), without the fear of the frivolity and ridicule that pervade the Conversation. Numerous times I've wanted to bring up issues dealing with relationships and sexual encounters, but I didn't really know where they should go. Discussions of past relationships and personal experiences with romantic/sexual feelings don't really fit into the Headshop.

Yes. Good. I'm all for it.
 
 
illmatic
11:33 / 08.08.05
This brings up an interesting tension for me with regard to the underlying bias of Headshop. A lot of posts in HS emerge from people's readings of theory (with some posters pursuing academic careers, PhD's etc.) I think it would be fair to say that most thinking and statements made are "backed up" with some reference to theory, and a greater preference to discussing the abstract rather than the personal.

I think this reflects a general bias in our intellectual traditons, in which we discount experience over that which can be referenced and justtifed through the use of text and intellect. (Incidentially, thi is why some of the discussions on identity politics over there so fascinating, as they're a fusion of the two).

I suspect what Whisky might be asking for is a space in which we can discuss emotional/ experiential matters seriously without necessarily referencing it to these theoretical concerns? That's something I'd certainly be in support of - after all, these concerns are the stuff of our lives, after all. Maybe I'm completely misreading her, I don't know. Correct me if I am.

Having said that, I don't know if it needs another forum though, but I think it reflects an interesting division between the "personal and political" (for want of a better phrase).

I might add a lot of this comes out of my thinking about occult stuff, modding the Temple etc. where experience is paramount and the ability to reflect critically on your experience, rather than theorise, is vital.
 
 
illmatic
12:11 / 08.08.05
To illustrate - I thought about starting a thread on people's relationships with their bodies recently. I'd be happy for this to go in Conversation because of the anecdotal material that this is likely to attact, but was a bit put off by thought of loads of loads of shite "does my bum look big in this thread" jokes that it might attract. I will start it at some point, bu as a general point, I don't think there's any more inherent value in Headshop threads than in this sort of material.

I don't think there's sufficient demand yet for another forum - perhaps specific Headshop or Convo threads with directions as to what one is looking for spelt out clearly in the abstract/opening post?
 
 
illmatic
12:25 / 08.08.05
As long as it's not the forum where we can all go "sqeeeee!" then we should be okay.
 
 
Smoothly
14:46 / 08.08.05
I think the points you make about the gap between the Head Shop and the Convo are spot on, Illmatic, so that’s why I’ve got to kinda disagree with this:

I don't think there's sufficient demand yet for another forum - perhaps specific Headshop or Convo threads with directions as to what one is looking for spelt out clearly in the abstract/opening post?

Imagine that it was a putative Majick/Spirituality forum that was being debated here. The Head Shop or Convo dichotomy might be applied to that: It’s either theory or anecdotal – no need for a ‘Temple’. Thing is, I think that misses one of the most valuable things about dividing the board into forums, and that’s the potential to foster particular cultures that allow particular kinds of discussion to flourish. I’m not a regular in the Temple, but whenever I do pass through I’m struck by the sense of community there and its atmosphere as a safe-space for people to talk about things that they might not feel so comfortable doing elsewhere. I’m not quite sure how that has evolved, but I imagine it has a lot to do with the quality and sensitivity of the moderation, as well as it being a clearly delineated space with a distinct and clear identity.
Similarly, with good moderation I can see a Sex & Relationships section nursing some really interesting discussions (which there appears to be is both some appetite for and a reluctance to start elsewhere) without the thread starter having to stipulate special conditions or defend it against the norms of an existing forum.
 
 
Smoothly
15:32 / 08.08.05
(Sorry, all that not directed at Illmatic. Just taking issue with the idea that the HS and Convo suffice to cover any kind of discussion of sex we might want to have, not the bulk of what Ill was saying.)
 
 
Tom Coates
08:30 / 09.08.05
Yeah I should remind people I think that the HeadShop isn't there for a discussion in which theory is used to support a conversation about Comics or Sex or Film or TV - we have fora for that. It's a forum where people can talk about THEORY and use Comics or Sex or Film / TV to illustrate their discussion. The whole board should be a place where people can talk at a high theoretical level about Art / Literature / Science / Comics / Film / Religion / Music etc.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
21:17 / 09.08.05
Hmmm...the banning on multiple suits might make people who know people here a bit wary of being frank...It sounds like a forum that should have the *option* for a second suit, to safeguard anonymity if it were required...maybe the second suit having no access to the rest of the board, I don't know...is that feasible / hassle free?
 
 
Smoothly
23:48 / 09.08.05
I wondered about that, but now I'm not sure that would be necessary or even desirable. Unless people have different ideas from me about the kinds of discussions we'd want to have, I don't see that posters would need any more anonymity than ficsuits already afford. A degree of accountability would probably be a civilising influence. And I didn't really think that it would be people you know who'd be the issue. Personally, I'm far more comfortable talking frankly about sex with people I *know*, but maybe that's unusual.

I can imagine circumstances where people might not want certain things being attributable, but there would be ways around that. Even if I wanted to confess my deepest darkest grubbiest secret, I'm sure I could find *someone* on the board whom I either trusted or didn't give a shit about enough to PM and ask them to post on my behalf.
Would that not work?
 
  

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