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Moderation requests & discussion thereof

 
  

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miss wonderstarr
06:35 / 03.04.06
I'm still not convinced that Alex's was either a putrid post (I think the term could equally be applied to the song lyrics on there, but I wouldn't think of asking for those to be edited on the grounds of putridity) or a vicious example of intolerance.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:11 / 03.04.06
Since you have shown your own fondness of editing, and Alex's (hey guys it was Teh Joke!!1!!) Grandma has apologised... perhaps he could direct a request to you for editing the intolerance out of the post.

Absolutely. He is free to do that, as was I when I decided that there was a broader issue than Dead Megatron's inability to work out what was appropriate behaviour. As long as the edit makes sense and does not harm the sense of the thread - that is, does not remove something that has been commented on and discussed further down the thread.


Should he do that I don't feel how you could refuse. Er... unless you have a personal reason to keep that putrid post in its entirity?


This is a contemptible and dishonest insinuation, and you are contemptible and dishonest for having made it. I suggest you retract it immediately, with an apology. Of course, if you do not, that is your choice - you are responsible for what you post, and will be treated accordingly.

Perhaps you might also want to explain why you feel that it is acceptable to make personal attacks on people who do not do what you want on this matter?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:35 / 03.04.06
A "this post has been edited of a vicious example of intolerance" footnote might work nicely.

Could you please explain to me where the vicious intolerance in that post lies, coz I still seem to be missing it.
 
 
neukoln
08:03 / 03.04.06
This is a contemptible and dishonest insinuation...

How, exactly?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:09 / 03.04.06
Exactly? Because you are a) postulating an alternate future in which I deny a moderation request from Alex to moderate his own post and b) suggesting that if I do so, the only reason will be in order to pursue some form of vendetta with Dead Megatron which I don't actually thhink exists. Thus, (c), you are implying that any failure to do exactly what you want will only be for ignoble motives, and (d) that I will be prepared to violate the rules of good moderator conduct in pursuit of these ignoble motives.

Does that help?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:16 / 03.04.06
Oh, we might also want to factor in (e).

I don't moderate the Creation.

I don't expect Pericles, but an entry-level understanding of how Barbelith works before starting to claim that it in general is and I in particular am corrupt if it does not do what you want it to is not, I think, too much to ask.
 
 
neukoln
08:20 / 03.04.06
Does that help?

I see the 'contemptible'. But I don't see the 'dishonest'. Perhaps you could try again?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:23 / 03.04.06
Well, the dishonest is in the representation of me as only possibly not doing what you want because of an ignoble desire to use Alex's posts against his will as a weapon against Dead Megatron. Also, the dishonest is in suggesting I would do this even thought I have no power to edit Alex's post, or to approve a request from Alex to edit his post.

However, in the interests of good neighbourliness, I'd be happy to retract "dishonest", and merely stick with contemptible, and if you just want to retract and apologise for it on the grounds that it was contemptible, and by implication that you had no right to make such an insinuation, I'd be happy to accept that.
 
 
neukoln
08:47 / 03.04.06
...and if you just want to apologise for it on the grounds that it was contemptible, I'd be happy to accept that.

OK. I do. You have clearly shown how you arose at that conclusion, based on what I wrote. So, I apologise that my poor communications skills put both of us in that situation.

I would like to add a caveat. What I wrote, and what you guessed I was insinuating, are the not the same thing. You conflated the two and presented it as an absolute truth. It was wrong of you to have done that. This is not the place to discuss this, and if you want to go into it further you are welcome to PM me.

Back on topic. Am I right that Alex's post stays as is, and that the thread is moved to Conversation? If that occurs you will be aware that in Conversation more people will witness DM's face being rubbed in Alex's excrement? I ask you if that is fair? Does DM really deserve that?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:55 / 03.04.06
OK. I do. You have clearly shown how you arose at that conclusion, based on what I wrote. So, I apologise that my poor communications skills put both of us in that situation.

I would like to add a caveat. What I wrote, and what you guessed I was insinuating, are the not the same thing. You conflated the two and presented it as an absolute truth. It was wrong of you to have done that. This is not the place to discuss this, and if you want to go into it further you are welcome to PM me.


Feel free to PM me with your explanation of what:

Should he do that I don't feel how you could refuse. Er... unless you have a personal reason to keep that putrid post in its entirity?

Other than "you have a personal reason (that is, you are prepared to abuse your powers as a moderator in the Creation (which I don't have, by the way)) to keep that (putrid) post in its entirety (which would not be the action taken by anybody behaving as they ought to and not abusing their powers to fulfil a personal agenda)", feel free to PM me and explain it, but please also be aware that I have received enough abuse and misrepresentation through the private message system recently that I reserve the right to publish the content of your message if I feel it is justified. If you'd like to explain what you meant here as an alternative, feel free. If you want to apologise, do it here. You have done neither, and if you want to do neither then please take responsibility for that decision.

I'd suggest that you continue your discussion as to what to do with the thread with somebody who is able to moderate it. I am simply telling you what the role of moderators is - to review and approve changes to the content of posts requested by those who posted them, and not to make changes to the content of people's posts on the request of an uninvolved third party.
 
 
neukoln
09:15 / 03.04.06
If you want to apologise, do it here.

I do, and I did. Read the post again.

...but please also be aware that I have received enough abuse and misrepresentation through the private message system...

I'm sorry to hear that people are PM'ing you abuse. However I'm afraid I'm not clear why you are telling me this? Can you please explain?

You have done neither, and if you want to do neither then please take responsibility for that decision.

I'm reading that as a threat. Am I wrong to do so? And if I am wrong can you tell me what you did mean by this assertion?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:39 / 03.04.06
Ye gods.

OK:

If you want to apologise, do it here.

I do, and I did. Read the post again.

You apologised for failing to communicate your actual meaning. Since I do not know what your actual meaning is, apparently, I have no way of understanding whether or not you should be apologising for what you actually meant. However, you have not apologised for it, nor indeed for what you said. I have edited my post above to make this clearer.

...but please also be aware that I have received enough abuse and misrepresentation through the private message system...

I'm sorry to hear that people are PM'ing you abuse. However I'm afraid I'm not clear why you are telling me this? Can you please explain?

With pleasure. The private message system is treated with different degrees of respect by different people. I take a pretty hard line on it - I won't quote content of other people's PMs unless I have given them fair warning or they have given me permission. This, unfortunately, provides people with a fair amount of license to send me by PM messages either with a tone or with a level of argument that would not be acceptable on the open board. I was warning you that I would if I felt it necessary quote your private message on the open board, which i would not usually do, as a result of these recent issues.

You have done neither, and if you want to do neither then please take responsibility for that decision.

I'm reading that as a threat. Am I wrong to do so? And if I am wrong can you tell me what you did mean by this assertion?

You are wrong to do this, unless your definition of threat is any statement suggesting that an action will have consequences. If you read a little back on this thread, you'll see my saying:

People are responsible for what they post and how they appear to people - you don't get to demand that they have that responsibility taken away, and to do so seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how Barbelith functions.

You are responsible for what you post, in the sense that it is extremely rare for the content of your post to be altered by moderators and in the sense that you will be judged by your peers according to what you say.

By the same token, speaking as an interested bystander rather than as a moderator of the Creation, if the thread is moved to the Conversation and if Alex's conduct is as awful as you believe and as your continuing use of metaphors of bodily excretion suggest, it will mean that lots of people will see what a horrible man he is and will react to him from then on accordingly.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
09:44 / 03.04.06
Guys - get ye to the arguement thread!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:50 / 03.04.06
Math - once again, it seems like you're posting for the joy of poisting. Did that help in any way? Did it advance the issue under discussion. Was it, quite simply, worth saying? Will it have any positive or relevant impact?
 
 
neukoln
09:59 / 03.04.06
You apologised for failing to communicate your actual meaning.

No I didn't. Read it again. This time read what I said, and not your interpretation of what I said.

I'll help you. You invited me to apologise on the grounds that what I said was contemptible. I replied: OK. I do. I continued to say that your posts made it very clear that what I said was contemptible. I further apologised that I had put both of us in this situation, due to my poor communication skills.

I have apologised. I do not apologise a second time for the same thing. And I do not grovel. If you want to continue in this vein, then fine. But you will do it alone. If you choose to not accept the apologies (plural) then that is your prerogative. Your answers convinced me that I should apologise, and I did. I have no more to say on the matter.

Kindly allow me a couple of hours to return to your other points.
 
 
Feverfew
10:09 / 03.04.06
My thread is cursed.

First by non-linking links, then when I put in the link it double-posted. Would someone mind deleting the second linking post?

Many thanks.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
10:12 / 03.04.06
Math - once again, it seems like you're posting for the joy of poisting. Did that help in any way? Did it advance the issue under discussion. Was it, quite simply, worth saying? Will it have any positive or relevant impact?

if it stops the moderation request thread becoming the haus in an argument thread, then it was not only positive and relevant, but it would help in every way.

As has happened with the two many agent smiths thread, this thread for the last page or so has been specifically revolving around a one on one argument with someone, as opposed to the original dictat for the thread. As such, I was asking, nicely, if you could not argue here, but argue elsewhere, like a specific thread created for arguments.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:26 / 03.04.06
Ah - right. So, you accept that your behaviour was contemptible, and apologised for contemptible behaviour? I see. I was misled by your statement:

OK. I do. You have clearly shown how you arose at that conclusion, based on what I wrote. So, I apologise that my poor communications skills put both of us in that situation.

That is, the part where you stated that you apologised for your poor communication skills, and not for what you actually said. Because you then said:

I would like to add a caveat. What I wrote, and what you guessed I was insinuating, are the not the same thing.

That is, I thought, apparently erroneously, that what you meant was not what I thought you meant. Therefore, I further assumed in error, you did not in fact feel that your insinuation was contemptible, and that you were apologising for failing to communicate your (non-contemptible) meaning, while making it clear that I was wrong to behave as if the (contemptible) meaning you had actually communicated was in fact your meaning.

So, the best I can understand from this is that what you are saying is:

What you, Haus, believe was my meaning was not my meaning. However, my actual meaning, although it is not what you believe it to be, was also contemptible. Therefore, I appologise for the contemptible meaning (which is not yet clear) of my comment, and also for the poor communication skills which meant that you understood me to be communicating a different contemptible meaning.

Or:

Although what I wrote and what you guessed that I was insinuating are not the same thing, nonetheless you correctly identified that what I wrote _was_ in fact insinuating what you believed it to be insinuating. So, although I have philosophical issues with the idea of one thing being identified as another, and also with the idea of absolute truth, in practical terms you, Haus, correctly identified what the insinuation (a discrete entity) of what I wrote (another discrete entity) was, and correctly identified, inasmuch as one can assign "truth" or "correctness" to such matters in a world of relatives, that it was contemptible. As such, philosophical issues aside, I apologise for the contemptible insinuation.

In either case, that's fine - you have admitted that yoou were out of order and that your claim, as it is written, should be treated with contempt, for either reason. No worries. Let's shake on it.

I would be happy to take a breather and wait for your other responses.
 
 
haus of fraser
10:40 / 03.04.06
Can a mod move 'The Arguement (sic) thread' to Conversation - i think it may have a more appropriate home there.

Policy and Help in general is pretty much get rotted beyond belief with petty rows over posting quality - especially this thread intended to allow us non mods to point out moderation requests and have a tidier happier board- any chance that we can stop the rot?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:49 / 03.04.06
Feverfew - I've moved to delete the first of your double posts. However, you can move for these changes yourself - click on the "edit post" tag to the right of your post, and it will bring it up - you can moderate or delete from there. Try using it to fix your first link. That will result in a quicker fix, as only one moderator will need to be around to agree it, rather than one to propose and another to agree it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:01 / 03.04.06
Not terribly happy with the dispute that's going on in this thread, but even less happy with the crying of "Threadrot!" when someone responds to a personal attack in-thread.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
11:09 / 03.04.06
well thats irked me. I wanted that thread in policy as I wanted it to be viewed in the same way that the moderation request thread. Can I ask why it was moved, and why I wasn't asked for any imput as to whether it was moved or not?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:36 / 03.04.06
Basically, because people having arguments is not a policy issue, whereas moderation requests are.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:24 / 03.04.06
Agreed. If people have serious comments that relate to board policy they should either start a thread about it, or post in this thread if it is a minor issue. The problem with your thread, math, is that it invites people to complain or apologise - which is fine, though possibly unwise - without really requiring that the matter be something that requires a clarification of Policy or a use of moderator powers.

So its a convo thread, basically, and it'll get a better response there too, as long as it doesn't become a way for people to snipe at eachother.
 
 
Shrug
12:24 / 03.04.06
I don't think DM has weighed in on this yet? Is he aware of the raging debate?
Also neukoln could you please once again explain where the intolerance/bigotry lies in Alex's post? A number of people have asked you this and it would be useful (for your cause) if you could explain these claims.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:42 / 03.04.06
I'm somewhat confused about why, very specifically, the suggestion that English was not DM's first language was no longer an excuse for what Alex took to be an inept and annnoyingly approach to posting is actually "bigotted" myself. Not very nice, certainly, and Alex has apologised for slagging DM off while pisse, but I think that was perhaps the least offensive thing he said; his meaning, as far as I could determine, was "I and others have been cutting you slack because you are not posting in your native language, but there is a limit to this slack, which I have now personally reached".

Personally, I'm more surprised that Dead Megatron decided to celebrate our new spirit of entente by posting a ditty identifying me by name as a repressive influence on Barbelith.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
12:49 / 03.04.06
I think, and while this is obviously speculatory as I am not myself Dead Megatron, that his lyrics to you were toungue in cheek Haus, and not meant to be insulting. I find it interesting that you've taken this as insulting, but I guess it could've been read that way. I got some good advice last week, that when I think that someone is 'having a go' at me in a thread, to re-read it and imagine that it could not be said in such a mean way, and I think this is a good example of when that applies. Especially since I have to re-read most of your responses to me in such a way.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:00 / 03.04.06
Well, Math, he said himself that is was "all good fun". My contention is that he was incorrect in this assertion, and that to do this was a very silly thing to do. In particular, to cite Shadowsax, Mr. Six, Hawksmoor and Zoemancer as victims of "my" persecution of "newbies" was spectacularly unwise. Shadowsax has, to my knowledge, been in no way disadvantaged by his neurotic dislike of women. Mr. Six has been on Barbelith for six years and is, I fear, the author of his own recent misfortunes. Hawksmoor was banned by Tom Coates for persistent hate speech and Zoemancer was a Holocaust denier. Which makes one wonder exactly what sort of a board DM would like Barbelith to be.

So, unwise. I am quite happy to accept that Dead Megatron had no malicious intent when posting it. That does not, however, mean that it should have been posted or that it was not a blisteringly bad idea to do so, nor that more than about five seconds' solid cogitation could not be expected to make that clear
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
13:33 / 03.04.06
Yeah thats a pretty fair point. It was pretty stupid to use people who participate in hatespeech as examples of victims of your acidic toungue.
 
 
Sauron
16:17 / 03.04.06
sorry double posted in let me explain thread
 
 
Sauron
16:26 / 03.04.06
Sorry Haus, I've just read your explanation of how to DIY. Will do.
 
 
neukoln
17:21 / 03.04.06
Why do I regard Alex's comment about DM's ESL (English as Second Language) as bigoted?

A: Your observations, about absolutely everything, all the time, are totally meaningless,
B: your attempts to engage with teh 'Barberoyalty' are frankly just weird,
C: and by this point, the fact that English isn't your first language is of absolutely no consequence whatsoever

Because he uses it to demarcate DM as being 'other'. 'Other' in this context is someone who never has and never will meet with Alex's approval (A). And whose attempts to engage with the Inner Circle he regards as perverse (B). So perverse in fact that his ESL makes it even more distasteful (C). There are a lot of superlatives in that sentence: absolutely, all, totally, just, absolutely, whatsoever - all emphasising that there is no acceptance, or tolerance, or any leeway given, or any route provided for escape. It is: trapdoor down, and I'm here to tell you buddy that you are excluded.

"if the thread is moved to the Conversation and if Alex's conduct is as awful as you believe... it will mean that lots of people will see what a horrible man he is and will react to him from then on accordingly."

No, they won't. This is because there seems to be something particularly unpleasant going on on the boards wrt to DM. He is The Barbelith Dog. Your boss shouted at you, kick the dog; your mother walked in you wanking, kick the dog. DM is the sport here. It's a cruel sport of attack, which depresses me to witness.

"I was warning you that I would if I felt it necessary quote your private message on the open board, which i would not usually do, as a result of these recent issues."

Yes, I thought you meant that. I'll retract my offer to talk via PM in that case. Mine was a legitimate attempt at private discourse, not an opportunity to take 'potshots' at you away from the board.

The day is long. I'll leave this with the mods now.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:47 / 03.04.06
So perverse in fact that his ESL makes it even more distasteful (C).

Sorry, but there is absolutely no way that that reading makes sense. I would say, in fact, that that is quite possibly the maddest reading you could apply. In this context, it seems grimly humorous that you told me to read what I said, and not your interpretation of what I said.

It is simply nonsensical. Alex is very clearly saying that, for him, the fact that English is not his first language is no longer valid as a mitigating factor, not that it made anything even more distasteful.

I'm rather embarrassed that we have spent so much time trying to tease meaning out of such an esoteric interpretation

Seriously, people - does anybody else buy this interpretation even for a second?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:05 / 03.04.06
As for Private Messaging - given how idiosyncratic your litcrit on Alex is, I'm afraid that I am fascinated by what you might come up with on my darker purposes. Go on, then. I won't quote it as long as you manage to avoid using naughty words.
 
 
Shrug
18:09 / 03.04.06
I must say I don't understand that reading either. I think I'm going to pm Dead Megatron to discuss the events though. He hasn't posted since afaik, I'd imagine that he's feeling pretty low about the whole situation. Not that I agree with his citing of Zoemancer, Hawksmoor et al as persecuted (which just caused a oh FFS reaction). I've a notion, however, that it was posted more without thought than with malign intention.
 
  

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