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Frank Miller, Jim Lee: The Goddamn Batman

 
  

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FinderWolf
22:59 / 19.05.06
Funny how this came out and no one seems to care. I didn't see any mention of it in online reviews or most comic sites that I check out.

Well, I bought #5 for the 6-page gatefold spread thing, I admit it. It is pretty, and well-done. As for the book, Bats is still acting like a hopped-up Marv and I did think the idea of Bats finding out Supes' ID first before Supes knows Bats' D and so Bats uses the leverage to basically blackmail Supes into being his errand boy for emergencies to be pretty funny.
 
 
Dicodisco
06:36 / 20.05.06
Actually, I find this review pretty funny...

http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com/reviews/114796977886501.htm
 
 
Jack Denfeld
06:40 / 20.05.06
Hah, from that review.
Batman: It’s the goddamn Frank Miller. He created Sin City and made a pretty cool movie. There’s nothing wrong with the comic, you’re just too stupid to understand it.

Robin: I’ve read better, like James Robinson’s current arc. At least he wouldn’t waste six pages on a cave full of useless junk that goes on forever.

Batman: The hell he wouldn’t if Jim Lee were drawing it.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:15 / 20.05.06
Nice!

In Miller's All-Star Bats 'continuity,' Bruce Wayne ATE RATS while moping in the cave after his parents' death??? And he really expects Robin to do the same? Eeewwwwwww.
 
 
This Sunday
08:47 / 21.05.06
Anyone who's ever had a thirty-two cent burrito at a flea market has probably been chomping on carne de rato. And, really, did we not think that at some point - almost no matter which version you pick - Bats wasn't a little bit fucked in the head. There are versions that remained nuts, and those where he's healed himself and become a healthy, functional person (my preference being the latter), but somewhere in his history there has to have been a lapse, and many times, Robin has been excused because he supposedly put Batman out of that insanity and into some sort of functional, human role.

I liked the new issue, even if I still can't manage a workable time-table for that milk carton. And I really like that the uber-toughguy Batspeak isn't working on Robin at all. It only works on paranoid nutcases and low-rent criminals... or guys who're getting their legs broken while he talks. Any sane, rational person, presented with the Bat-persona for an extended period (say, the length of a normal conversation), sees right through it to the damaged pretense.

This would be harder to buy if we hadn't had the post-Miller angsty-mean Batasshole... and the supercompetent science ninja. Miller's playing the initial loudly, and mockingly, but there's obviously the potential for the second type. Anyone who could manage that cave could find a way to heat it, and so on.

And, as with the Larry Hama Bats, the Grant and the Collins Bats, of years past, this is obviously being written with kids in mind to a degree certain other Batwriters aren't even attempting. Is it worthwhile to try, now, when common sense and statistics show kids don't really buy/read comics much? Except for online comics? Should Batman be written in the style of a first-year-college-student webcomic instead of big fucked up trial-daddy tamed by the rational Boy Wonder and his 'dude, your so gay for me' pithy dialogues?

If there's no hint of development by the time the second arc's rolling around, then I'll give in and admit this is just spinning its wheels. Right now, things seem to be developing at a decent enough pace and I think the splash and multi-page panels are actually worth it. That Batcave thing is the best I've seen that handled that did not just redo the original diagram-the-cave drawing everyone seems to just copy. It's like seeing Galactus from any angle Kirby didn't do... such a simple thing, but surprisingly rare.

What's hilarious is reading both All-Star books as complimentary. Morrison's Superman's ultimate confidence and capacity versus Miller's full-of-himself and forced-suffering Batman. When both get to guest in the other's book for an extended bit, an actual encounter... Well, I think it'll be fun. It's the goddammed Batman for crying out loud! As long as he's big and loud and childish... he's a frightened kid's version of the ultimate parent revenge figure. And since this is a retro book, the version here works for me... in contemporary book's, in stuff where it's the Batman of today, I'd like a little more maturity and recognition in my hairychested lovegod science ninja leatherdaddy with the pointy ears.
 
 
trantor2nd
02:51 / 24.06.06
Was wondering why Superman prefers running on water than flying over it. Doesn't the cave always have the giant coin?
 
 
Withiel: DALI'S ROTTWEILER
03:30 / 24.06.06
I think it's because this is a heavily depowered Superman equivalent to that in the original strips and the Fleischer cartoons - rather than flying, he can simply jump very high, and therefore would have to run over large bodies of water rather than another method, I suppose.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:30 / 23.10.06
Some articles (like the one linked here) talk about issue 5 like it's come out already and look ahead to issue 6....but we all know issue 5 hasn't even come out yet. Anyway, 12-15 issues total are planned by Miller & Lee. #15 projected for 2009.
 
 
adamswish
14:13 / 10.01.07
sorry for dragging this thread back to life but it sure saves on creating a brand new one on the death of this title (unless I'm really stupid and missed the new thread).

Yes that's right, through my own logic and a quick word with the folks at my local comic store it seems DC have let this title die. It's not listed on the DC site for the next few months (where as WildCATS #2 is set for March, good to see Jim Lee not pissing off the community) and, as I mentioned, the stores aren't expecting any further issues.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
14:19 / 10.01.07
damn.

I liked it.

got a feeling its not cancelled tho.

so

un-damn for the time being.
 
 
Janean Patience
14:44 / 10.01.07
Since this has been bumped, UK Barbs can pick up the first issue of this, the first issue of the Morrison/Kubert run and #1 of Superman/Batman in Batman Legends, a new monthly from Titan for £2.40. Probably the only chance you've got of getting a good deal from Titan. What they'll do when they run out of Morrison and/or Miller Batman in four months time I don't know.

And for the record, Miller and Lee's contribution was easily my favourite of the three. At least it told the story with some style, y'know?
 
 
FinderWolf
20:24 / 10.01.07
It's not cancelled - just suuuuuuuper-delayed. Seriously. The rest of the issues will see print, though perhaps mostly in late 2007 and 2008.
 
 
Triplets
00:01 / 11.01.07
Psst. Don't tell Boboss.

(even though he'd be entirely in the fucking right)
 
 
The Falcon
15:45 / 11.01.07
Yeah, it's officially 'cancelled', but just so they can resolicit whenever Lee draws another issue.
 
 
FinderWolf
04:00 / 24.02.07
from the NYC ComicCon (DC panel):

Regarding All-Star Batman and Robin - someone asked "Is it over?"

To which Keith Giffen responded: "They're out of the car."
 
 
FinderWolf
14:02 / 16.05.07
for better or for worse, a new issue of this is ACTUALLY out today.

Shocking, I know.
 
 
Automatic
11:54 / 17.05.07
That was the best comic I read this week. Frank Miller has gone totally bonkers.
 
 
COBRAnomicon!
13:43 / 17.05.07
Please elaborate. I read a preview and thought it looked like a train wreck, but sometimes I'm wrong and even if I'm not, it's fun to read about train wrecks in the newspaper the next day.
 
 
Mario
15:09 / 17.05.07
Two quotes say it all:

"I love being the goddamn Batman"

And, from a special guest star:

"Out of my way, sperm bank"
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
15:42 / 17.05.07
Good God, I don't even know where to start with Wonder Woman's portrayal as teh Man-hatin feminismist (don't worry Ordinary Blokes- she makes out with Superman and by Dark Knight Strikes Back he does her so hard they crack a mountain in half, so she's not one of those oh-so-very-real man-hating lesbians. Me and Frank 'The Sperm-Bank' Miller just really needed to point that out.)
 
 
Automatic
16:29 / 17.05.07
Please elaborate?

It's a bizarre homoerotic Batman fantasy. Batman is a constantly laughing limb-snapping psychopath, Alfred is ripped, topless and sweaty and Wonder Woman is an absurd feminist caricature (with Hal Jordan as her bitch).

This comic is so drenched in testosterone it's ridiculous.
 
 
COBRAnomicon!
17:53 / 17.05.07
Yikes. Seen more of it now. Here's the thing: I agree it's ridiculous. But how intentional was that? Does Miller actually think it's cool (unlikely), does Miller think it's so uncool that it's ironically cool, or is he just waving his dick around laughing hysterically that people will pony up money to see such cock-wavery?
 
 
FinderWolf
18:18 / 17.05.07
That is the question, isn't it?

I don't have an answer, but I bet he thinks it's really cool stuff and this is just his 'tough guy over-the-top action movie' kind of thing. From the way he's spoken about the earlier issues in interviews; that's my guess.
 
 
Mug Chum
19:00 / 17.05.07
Yeah, but how much is the "intentional" actually just a sad messy jizzoup? And how much is satire and, if so, where is it coming from? I mean, clearly in Miller's head, Goddamn Batman's laugh is his own in a awkward messy way. From then on, I'm lost and just simply don't want to go any deeper in this lunatic defensive-offensive grime.

Can someone placate Miller already and put Millar's caption with laughing Batman, going "this is my face while I fuck you in the ass"?
 
 
Mug Chum
19:09 / 17.05.07
Oh, and wasn't the first page in ASS#3(page 2)?
 
 
Essential Dazzler
20:23 / 17.05.07
I'm fairly certain Miller intends it as parody, but Miller's view of superheroes done properly verges fairly close to my idea of parody, so it turns out to be a quite unique kind of bizarro satire. Which is terrible as it turns out.
 
 
This Sunday
20:32 / 17.05.07
I think in some ways, superheroes in their prime modes do require being exploded into parody. Satire, not so much, as that implies a judgement of the superhero(es) in question, but parody, deliberate and overdone cartooning the thing to a gigantonormous scale? Yeah.

Miller's execution of that is a whole other thing. Although, having enjoyed the previous issues of this more than many folks, I'm going to have to at least read a copy sometime. Maybe when the trade comes out in a couple years.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:42 / 17.05.07
Really not sure what to make of that.

I suppose it could be satire - you've got this lunatic, quasi-beatnik playboy tearing across town, busting heads, arms and so on, picking up chicks, more than half in love with the horrors of the city, but it'd be a different kind of satire than that evident in Garth Ennis' early Punisher, or even something like 'Wanted', because there's no apparent moral centre in evidence at all. And it seemed too full of a certain demented conviction to have been intended as parody. Miller, and Jim Lee, lest we forget (the art was quite something), do mean this stuff, I think. On the other hand I can't see how they'd honestly expect it to be taken seriously.

The obvious conclusion is that Frank's on crack; otherwise, it may be that he's sat down with the stated intention of writing the most absurdly overheated, Grand Guignol Batman he can possibly manage, in which case he's arguably on the right track.

I haven't been following the series (I've read #3, I think, which was fairly abysmal) but I have to admit this episode had a sort of beserk energy I quite enjoyed. God only knows where he's going with it next, but as an All Star title it seems to be doing the exact opposite of George's Superman, in terms of re-imagining the character's mythos - surely no one's supposed to get to the end of ASB with a renewed respect, or love, for Batman or any of the supporting cast. I mean I shudder to think what The Joker's going to be like, if he shows up in this context.

Comparatively though, George's Batman this month seemed like pretty thin gruel - If Frank's going insane then on this showing he's at least, I don't know, trying to go about it in an interesting way.

If a decent editor can face Frank down, and get him to focus (it's increasingly hard not to think as Miller as a character in a Jack Reacher novel) then this series may yet turn out to be worthwhile, after all.

Out of the seven or eight comics I read this week, having not been to the shop in a while, this was the only one that didn't, on some level, depress me, a bit.
 
 
This Sunday
21:52 / 17.05.07
surely no one's supposed to get to the end of ASB with a renewed respect, or love, for Batman

And, yet, for different people, Miller has does this twice. I like DKR just fine, but its follow-up, really and honestly, watching Batman just go goofy killkrazy with flying his batmobile into a building and cutting up government bigwigs? Yeah, renewed my respect and love of Bats, it did.

Did Wonder Woman really call somebody 'sperm bank'? The women are the weakest/killing bit of this series, even if I didn't find the Vicky Vale stuff as offensive or wrong as many people did. Black Canary's All-Starification was annoying and unnecessary.

Oh, and Hal Jordan's the shit. In a good way.
 
 
Mug Chum
22:58 / 17.05.07
Did Wonder Woman really call somebody 'sperm bank'?

Yup. And she links everything bad to men in short lobotomized sentences, as she goes on and on unable to stop thinking about them and how she hates them while walking in luxious dominatrix high-heels that go TANK!TANK! (and then tells some guys to be a man, then kiss Superman* in a embarassing Miller "Zeus stabs them with thunder" moment, like when you watch Sin City and laughs at the "my amazon warrior" part that wasn't supposed to be funny and stupid); We have another city by Miller as if described in short sentences by an cognitive stagnated agoraphobic hammer (that was supposed to be Metropolis?!); a JLA gritty sewer-clubhouse/ militia HQ; Alfred is all butch hairy-chest lovegod in a Miller way, therefore homoerotic to the point where subtext becomes supertext as if straight from slash fiction; etc etc etc dot dot fuckin dot

And Plastic Man asks WW to pee on him.

I have NO idea what to make of it. Saying the man went crazy or is taking a piss just isn't enough anymore... I feel like at this point I should be able to see beyond "teh stupid", or beyond the "it's shittyness and jizziness is painfully awesome"! The mix of genuine conviction and bluntness-that-suggest-parody is too confusing and messy.

* and it seems almost too obvious that the kiss existed so Miller can later do some variation of geek's "I f----d your girl" in a Batman X Superman: Goddamn Batman Wins moment.

So then... next issue a initiation ritual for Robin, then?
(AKA sodomizing)
 
 
This Sunday
23:09 / 17.05.07
And Plastic Man asks WW to pee on him.

That actually sounds about right. This is the same guy who left himself as a dress on Barda's hotelroom bed and made breast-size comments every other issue of JLA for a bit.

Alfred's always going to be my point of salvation in this comic. All sexed up combat-Jeeves.

The WW thing... um... yeah. Having not seen the issue I'll pretend there's something of her new-ness to man-lands coming into play, since we're back in the day with this book, but really... yeah. As long as she doesn't walk around posed like she is on that ass-shot cover, which as a graphic looks good, but as a Wonder Woman illo... I think I grew up with a different one than Miller did. It's all bondage all the time but it should be playful bondage. Wonder Woman should be foreground in 'wonder', one might think.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
00:07 / 18.05.07
We have another city by Miller as if described in short sentences by an cognitive stagnated agoraphobic hammer (that was supposed to be Metropolis?!); a JLA gritty sewer-clubhouse/ militia HQ; Alfred is all butch hairy-chest lovegod in a Miller way, therefore homoerotic to the point where subtext becomes supertext as if straight from slash fiction; etc etc etc dot dot fuckin dot

I do take your point (and I'd forgotten all about the Vicki Vale materal - I've read more of this than I thought, it appears), but I still think that with this issue Miller's possibly finally on the way back from whatever post 9/11 traumatised half-state he's been in for a while now. He's wheeled out the above tropes before, of course, but never with the same kind of free-style, demented intensity, at least with regard to the DC universe (there was 'Elektra Assassin' but that was in another country, and besides ... etc) that he seems to be getting involved with here.

'Ultimates' #13 reads like the work of tired old men, in comparison.

Look at it, honestly, again, and ask yourself; has anything like this every really been done before?

It's a mess, of course, and possibly an objectionable one, but the last thing it is is a vanilla mess, surely? All Star Superman serves in Heaven, but All Star Batman reigns in Hell.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:52 / 18.05.07
I have to admit this episode had a sort of beserk energy I quite enjoyed

Indeed. I'm not going to go so far as to say I've done a turnaround on this comic, but it feels like maybe having started out clumsily blundering into self-parody, Miller then read the many defences of the first two or three issues which posited them as deliberate parody, and then decided that was the only way he was going to get this finished with any dignity intact. Think about how long there's been between the last issue and this one, and then see the bit wherein Batman, laughing like the Joker, thinks "I love being the GODDAMN BATMAN" - surely a huge knowing wink to the response to the most infamous line in the series to date...

It does indeed read the most demented form of fan-fiction writ large, with an enormous budget and the official seal of approval. Like a lunatic taking not just the company car but an entire flotilla for a spin. Through the city. The city. The city. The city. Hahahahahaha!

Reading it gave me that feeling of envy you get when you wish you'd thought of something first - never could I have come up with a Frank Miller piss-take as good as this. I mean, c'mon, buff shirtless Alfred working out with a punching bag, interior monologuing about THE BOY who he knew better than THE BOY's mother? Classique!
 
 
Janean Patience
08:42 / 18.05.07
I think it's fucking fantastic and absolutely deliberate. Miller has a history of writing to suit his artists. Relating to musings about the Image Style in a different thread, this is someone finally writing scripts to go with that hypertropic, super-hatched, anatomically banjaxed and dynamic-above-all style of art. Almost nonsensical in detail, wild and crazy, two-dimensional characters and everybody's buff and gorgeous. It's ignoring any kind of continuity in favour of full-speed ahead action and it's brilliant. Think of it as Heroes Reborn at DC. Just enjoy it. Best Batman I've read in years, the darkness years fed through a day-glo filter. This isn't Sin City. It's Hard Boiled.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:43 / 18.05.07
I'm actually quite surprised DC editorial let Miller do the 'Plastic Man wants Wonder Woman to pee on his fire hydrant' gag. Golden showers are a bit much, don't you think? Plus, if it was anyone other than Miller, I'm sure they never would have let a writer get away with that one.
 
  

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