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Frank Miller, Jim Lee: The Goddamn Batman

 
  

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Krug
12:24 / 05.01.05
Coming in July.

Six issues.

I'm not really excited as I'm not a Frank Miller fan. Dark Knight Returns is a tad overrated and the sequel was unreadable and I didn't even make it to the last issue. That said, Year One is one of the best Batman stories ever done. It's been almost twenty years since it came out so I'm not expecting much.
 
 
Spaniel
12:35 / 05.01.05
Well, I am a Millar Fan, at least of his best work, and I am looking forward to seeing what he's got in store.

Miles, without attempting to be patronising, how old are you? I'm not sure anyone who read DK back in 1986 would describe it as a tad overrated. I appreciate that it doesn't look as fresh today as it did then, but, ah, you know the rest...

I'm not, however, expecting anything near as groundbreaking this time around.
 
 
_Boboss
12:57 / 05.01.05
miller-haters, i ask you.

the things people will do to appear original.
 
 
Spaniel
13:35 / 05.01.05
Miller not Millar you fucking idiot.

Boboss punches himself in the back of the head.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:50 / 05.01.05
WEEEIRD!!!!

I wonder how post-ironic DK2 this will be.

Weird. I'm happy about it, but this seems surreal to me somehow.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:55 / 05.01.05
Maybe Miller will ixnay Robin's big animated blobby eyesbay. (from that preview pic by Jim Lee) I'm not crazy about the little flourishes Jim Lee put on his redesigned Robin costume from that pic, either...

Why the yellow oval back on Bats in All-Stars, since the movie version in Batman Begins has no yellow oval, I wonder...?
 
 
diz
13:55 / 05.01.05
“This is Dick Grayson's initiation and he's dealing with a very stern teacher. Batman is a hard teacher - unforgiving. Brutal."

wow. a million Batman/Robin slashfic writers just had simultaneous orgasms.
 
 
diz
13:56 / 05.01.05
oh, and this is obviously going to sell like hotcakes.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:17 / 05.01.05
Yes. Hotcakes.

>> Confirming rumors that started on writer Geoff Johns' messageboard, The New York Times reported that Frank Miller will write the previously announced All-Star Batman and Robin, which will join All-Star Superman by Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely.

It's the New York bloody Times that broke this story!?!?!? Craaaazy.

And this from Miller's mouth....

>> Me and Jim Lee get to play with all of DC's toys. It'll be a romp. It'll be a lot of fun. I plan on raiding DC's treasury of characters. There won't be a Black Canary or a Wonder Woman unused.”

Yay! I like the idea of Frank working with the whole DCU in non-dystopian future continuity.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:23 / 05.01.05
the NYT story..

>> Back to Batman

Frank Miller, an acclaimed comic book artist and writer who helped revolutionize the comics industry in 1986 with "The Dark Knight Returns," a grim vision of an elderly Bruce Wayne, is taking on Batman again. Mr. Miller has been announced as the writer of "All-Star Batman and Robin," which will be published by DC Comics in July as part of a new group of titles in which top artists and writers will create stories not bound by decades of continuity. (In this case, Batman's partner is Dick Grayson, the first and best-known Robin, not Tim Drake, the third boy in the role.) "All-Star Batman and Robin" will be illustrated by Jim Lee, a fan-favorite artist of Batman and Superman titles. Mr. Miller has another feather in his cap this spring: in April, Disney's Dimension Films will release "Sin City," the live-action version of his violent crime-noir comic book, starring Bruce Willis, Benicio Del Toro and Jessica Alba.

by GEORGE GENE GUSTINES
 
 
NezZ
15:23 / 05.01.05
Well this is great. I am looking forward to some fun, good lookin and well written comics this summer. I just hope that FM and GM have a blast on the All stars line.

I normally read crime and horror. So this has peaked my interest A LOT.

DOWN WITH CONTINUITY!
 
 
doyoufeelloved
19:21 / 05.01.05
Hahaha. Remind me never to cross Rich Johnston. He got mad voodoo.

Jim Lee... definitely not my first choice for this book. Probably not my fourth or fifth choice either. Hopefully he'll do OK. And can I just say that I feel like this would be a million times more interesting, and appealling to the general public, if Robin weren't it? There's no doubt it, Robin = camp. It doesn't matter how hard-edged you play him, how angry he is about his parents, etc: Robin is always a teenage boy next to a burly, hyper-masculine leather fetishist. There's simply no way to play the concept that isn't just a little bit funny. Including him is true to the historical conception of Batman, I suppose, but I think there comes a time when we must put away the toys that are obviously broken...

I'm obviously much more excited about Morrison/Quitely's Superman, because Superman's a character who responds well to the introduction of camp elements. Otherwise you'd just be freaking out about this INSANELY POWERFUL GOD who has our best interests at heart -- making him fight time-travelling dinosaurs with expanding robot brains (just an off-the-cuff example) makes him a little less scary and a bit more lovable. I think, in the wake of the last two disastrous films, nobody out there in the wide non-comics world wants a campy, lovable Batman. They can buy the TV series on DVD for that.
 
 
doyoufeelloved
19:23 / 05.01.05
OK, I lost a bunch of key words in there. Second paragraph should read:

And can I just say that I feel like this would be a million times more interesting, and appealling to the general public, if Robin weren't in it? There's no doubt about it, Robin = camp.

Also, I didn't even mention the fact that I do approve of Frank Miller as the writer. DK2 = kinda dreadful; YEAR ONE and DK1 = brill.
 
 
diz
19:39 / 05.01.05
I think there comes a time when we must put away the toys that are obviously broken...

you speak blasphemy. Robin can be done well, and when he's done well, his name is Tim Drake. the Tim Drake Robin is one of the best characters in the DCU: he's basically the sensible, level-headed character who sees through Batman's self-indulgent angsty bullshit and is basically just cool, smart, and sane.

you could also say the same thing for the animated Robin of the Teen Titans TV show.
 
 
doyoufeelloved
19:47 / 05.01.05
the Tim Drake Robin is one of the best characters in the DCU: he's basically the sensible, level-headed character who sees through Batman's self-indulgent angsty bullshit and is basically just cool, smart, and sane.

I'd actually agree, and I'll tell you why that's the case: He's almost never with Batman anymore. (At least when I was reading the books, they seemed to do everything they could to give Robin a non-Batman-related career.) But my point is that the Robin concept just doesn't translate outside the core audience anymore, now that the well's been thoroughly poisoned by the TV show and the two movies he starred in.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:25 / 06.01.05
from Newsarama: Englehart, Rogers, Austin and Workman back on Batman. Huh.

>> Frank Miller and Jim Lee aren’t the only acclaimed Batman creators coming back to the character in 2005. As Steve Englehart announced via an e-mail newsletter, together with Marshall Rogers, Terry Austin and John Workman, he will return to Batman, writing Batman: Dark Detective, a six-issue, biweekly miniseries.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:31 / 06.01.05
Jim Lee talks about the Batman book on Newsarama today:

>> NRAMA: Speaking of that “All-Star” angle…can you describe the setting a little more? It’s Gotham, Batman/Bruce, Robin/Dick, but not the ones that are currently in the DCU…or are they? Or is that too much thought into it already?

JL: It’s all of the above. It might be best to look at it as “Batman: Year Two” in the Millerverse of Batman. I assume it will feed off what Frank set up with Year One years ago and set up themes which will resonate with those seen in Dark Knight Returns and Dark Knight Strikes Again. It’s a fresh examination of the complex relationship between Batman and Robin, Wayne and Grayson.

and as for that Robin costume:

>> JL: The costumes seen in Wizard are unlikely to be seen in the first arc Frank and I do. The 10 or so designs I did for Batman and Robin will eventually show up but my understanding is that Batman and Robin starts out in as classic a style as possible. Can’t really say more than that without giving away stuff so there you have it. Remember this is an ongoing monthly so there will be changes and evolution of the characters as the series progresses.

As I said, I think they will be eventually seen, but we begin with the classic look for most of the main characters. As far as the designs, I had a lot of input from people at DC as well as some key suggestions from Alex Ross. In my mind, the original costumes are near perfect so it was a daunting task trying to update and customize the designs.

Those C and D-list heroes can expect more drastic makeovers but when it comes to characters like Black Canary—it’s got to be a short leather jacket and fishnets all the way. I will be getting to draw the characters with the maximum amount of creative freedom but 90% of the time, I will be defaulting to their original, classic look.

also...

>> JL: [we've been working on] What does Gotham look like…the architecture and skyline but most of the discussion has been about how Robin perceives the world of Batman. How does a 14 year-old understand and deal with the world of Gotham, a world dominated by Batman.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:32 / 06.01.05
check out the very fun Jim Lee Christmas Batman pic that went with the new Newsrama article (it was probably DC's Christmas card):

Santa's good to Bats this year.

the keychain is, of course, the logo for Batman Begins.
 
 
_Boboss
13:37 / 06.01.05
'key suggestions from alex ross'

more flab around the midriff. MORE FLAB!
 
 
Haus of Mystery
13:57 / 06.01.05
But so realistic. So painfully, boringly realistic.

Re: Tim drake being the de-angsted Robin. Did they not kill his Dad in 'Rape Adventures' or whatever that shit was? Great. Because, you know, it would be shit if there was anything interesting or different about Robin.
 
 
diz
14:50 / 06.01.05
I'd actually agree, and I'll tell you why that's the case: He's almost never with Batman anymore. (At least when I was reading the books, they seemed to do everything they could to give Robin a non-Batman-related career.) But my point is that the Robin concept just doesn't translate outside the core audience anymore, now that the well's been thoroughly poisoned by the TV show and the two movies he starred in.

i would have said the well's been too thoroughly poisoned before i saw Teen Titans. even my non-comics-reading friends agree that he's so cool in that show it hurts. you're right, that may have a lot to do with him not being in Batman's shadow on that show, but it's worth noting that Robin was really popular with kids on the Timm/Dini Batman animated series. he sold mad amounts of merchandise, and was otherwise the recipient of positive feedback. i think he's a salvagable character, and i think kids and certain adults will respond to a non-dorky Robin.

most of the discussion has been about how Robin perceives the world of Batman. How does a 14 year-old understand and deal with the world of Gotham, a world dominated by Batman.

again, does it strike anyone as being a very homoerotic take on the already very slash-friendly Batman/Robin relationship. it's the story of a tender young 14-year old trying to find his way through a world dominated by his harsh and demanding master. this is going to be so great on that level.... i would love to see this be something that on the surface is a very harsh, gritty, testosterone-filled excursion into hetero-manliness but is just overflowing with winks and nods to the outrageously gay/camp subtext.

Re: Tim drake being the de-angsted Robin. Did they not kill his Dad in 'Rape Adventures' or whatever that shit was? Great. Because, you know, it would be shit if there was anything interesting or different about Robin.

don't even get me started. just don't even get me fucking started.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:09 / 06.01.05
um, does that mean that every story with a young man/boy and his male adult mentor teaching him stuff, from martial arts to education, is homoerotic? I just feel it's far too easy to go 'this is like slashfic, man!!'
 
 
diz
15:35 / 06.01.05
not necessarily, but the ones where one of them dresses up in a fetishy batsuit and the other wears little green hotpants go to the front of the line.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
18:02 / 06.01.05
Careful, you'll break him.
 
 
Simplist
19:48 / 06.01.05
Have to say the Frank Miller is about the last person I'd hoped to see helming All-Star B&R, or perhaps more accurately, he was exactly who I was afraid of seeing on the book. I was really hoping for something a little more, you know, fun. More fun, that is, than the 1.5 decades of angsty faux-Miller Bat-comics we've been subjected to since his first couple of runs on the character. Not that his work was bad by any means, but since then the monthly books have been just endless attempts to recreate it in various forms, and since most of Miller's imitators lack his actual writing talent, the result is more charicature than character--Batman's so angry you wonder how the blood vessels in his temples remain intact, he has NO healthy relationships despite having like a dozen assistants, every passing shadow sends him into PTSD flashback mode, etc. It's all become very tedious and repetitive, and Miller returning to do the "definitive", "classic" version means it's only going to continue that way.
 
 
diz
20:10 / 06.01.05
i tend to agree with you here, Simplist. i think JLA Classified #1 was the most fun i've had with Batman in comics in a long time, and i loved the karaoke-singing Batman of this season's JLU animated series. a lighter, more clever, more POP! kind of Batman. it seems like there's a nascent movement to lighten up Batman which may be nipped in the bud by this.

still think it's going to sell like hotcakes, though.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:13 / 06.01.05
Am I the only person here who thinks the main problem with this is that Jim Lee's shit?

(Bear in mind, I live in a strange universe, where DK2 never happened, in much the same way as Phantom Menace and post-shag Moonlighting didn't).
 
 
FinderWolf
20:26 / 06.01.05
Well, Frank's DK2 was certainly brigher and more fun (the joycore cool Atom, Catgirl) than his other stuff overall. His whole thing was to express a Silver Age love for these characters. It seemed a bit purposely cartoony.

And yeah, Jim Lee's slick old Image style is going to be really seriously challenged here. It's like Lee is overall Very Good but has always fallen short of being anywhere near truly Great as an artist. Lee himself said the idea of drawing a FM script is very daunting, but he really wants to grow and be challenged by the experience -- a healthy attitude, I say.
 
 
diz
20:27 / 06.01.05
Am I the only person here who thinks the main problem with this is that Jim Lee's shit?

i think Jim Lee's OK. he's certainly the best at that early-90s Image style sort of art, which isn't a style i like overall, but i don't have a problem with Lee's work specifically.
 
 
Krug
20:48 / 06.01.05
I don't like Jim Lee either.

Can I have Jae Lee instead please? And can Grant Morrison come with him?

No?

Bugger.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
21:12 / 06.01.05
Jae Lee on Batman? Wow, that's a great idea...if only we lived in that world...Jae would be perfect.

I've never read a thing by Frank Miller that I liked. Maybe I have bad taste, or as bobossboy suggests, I'm too young, but I just find him sort of obvious and boring to read...
 
 
Simplist
22:57 / 06.01.05
Hey 24, on the "too young" angle, I think the main reason Miller made such a splash initially is that Dark Knight Returns was an actual solid piece of writing that came out in a time before comic writers were expected to be solid writers by even the most minimal standards generally applied to writers of books (Watchmen, released that same year, hit the stratosphere for much the same reason, though I'd argue it was far and away superior to DKR or anything else Miller has done). DKR also had the advantage of being very different from the much lighter kinds of Batman stories that were being published at the time. Also, it appeared in a then-unique glossy perfect-bound format at a time when most comics were still on newsprint.

Nowadays, of course, very few comics suffer from the kind of overwritten dialogue that was common up through the 80s, nearly every Batman story is--atmospherically and plotwise--as Milleresque as the writers can manage, and books are commonly published in high-quality formats, so DKR just isn't as standout as it was back then.
 
 
Spaniel
09:56 / 07.01.05
Regarding the too young thing. It really isn't meant as an insult, it's just that it is hard to imagine the sheer shock and awe impact to DK unless you were there at the time. Of course, I wouldn't want to under-sell the book, I still think it's a seminal work, a great read, and far more politically interesting than many suppose.

Hey, just go and read Kovacs' essay, he's done all the work so I don't have to.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
13:19 / 07.01.05
'Boring' is certainly not a criticism I'd level at Dark Knight.
 
 
Krug
18:52 / 07.01.05
I'm 22, so of course I didn't read it when it came out but surely good writing is good writing.
 
  

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