BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Frank Miller, Jim Lee: The Goddamn Batman

 
  

Page: 1 ... 34567(8)91011

 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
15:52 / 05.01.06
Batman says ‘Goddamn’ and they get the vapors.

Annoyance factor on "High".
(not that Mr. Miller is going to see this, but I'll say it anyway) I don't care about that. Personally, I think "I'm the goddamn Batman!" was one of the best one-liners of the year. But there is absolutely no reason that after three issues, we should still be driving the Batmobile. It's uninteresting. It's dull. It makes Ellis look short-winded. And when you're only three issues in, having only 4 pages of Batman (all of them splash pages, I might add) is simply unacceptable. I'm all about characterization of back-up characters like the Canary, but when you haven't done any characterization/development of the title characters yet, there's something wrong.

And why the hell does Batman need a sidekick? They've spent so much time having Bats narrate about how he's been watching Grayson, how he's been planning on using him in his war or whatever, but they've not bothered to tell us why Bats thinks he needs him at all.

Honestly, despite all it's narrative flaws (and there are plenty), I think Dark Victory is proving to be a much better exploration of Robin's origin than All-Star can even hope to be.

And honestly, Frank, "sweet chunks"?
 
 
matthew.
21:55 / 05.01.06
Boboss: Maybe Miller doesn't think he is shitting on Batman.

That's interesting. This makes me think. If Miller isn't writing this to have a laugh at his audience, then what is his point? What is he trying to say with this particular Batman? Is he writing Batman this way because he is out of different character types and is using Marv? Or does Miller actually want to intrepret Batman as something completely different (arguable) and say something about Batman that's new? Well, if that's the case, he might want to actually write a comic about Batman, not the fucking secondary cast.
 
 
NezZ
22:05 / 05.01.06
Batsman needs Robins in order for teh sex.

Or thats what the lower parts of my brain just forced me to type. Can't you imagine the script from Miller

"Right, Jim. I'm shameless. Gimme an ASS shot"

(oh shit he already did that)
 
 
matthew.
00:50 / 06.01.06
RE: that kid named Robin

One of teh best Batman stories evah is Year One, as written by -who- Frank Miller. Yeah, that guy. In this story, Miller juxtaposes and compares Jim Gordon and a young Bruce Wayne as they begin their long arduous journey towards civil peace and inner peace. The story is effective for numerous reasons; one of those reasons being the totally bad-ass Batman versus a while fucking SWAT team scene. As well, Year One is effective because of the use of narration without thought balloons. Now, I admit that I'm not the world's greatest expert on comics, but I'm fairly confident that Year One was one of the first mainstream comics to do this (one of the first...)

The other reason why this story works as a whole is because Batman is a solitary figure of the night. He's black, gray, with a dash of yellow. These colours fit well (mostly) in the dark. But take a kid in green underpants and green shoes and a yellow cape, and you have a kid who is not made for the night, for the dark, for the deeds need doing in the dark.

Robin is essentially a "son" figure to Batman's "father" figure. It's fairly obvious. One does not need to be Northop Frye to deduce the narrative purpose of Robin.

The final reason why Year One works is because there is no child running around in green underpants. Batman is still shaky, still an amateur. He doesn't need to be watching some kid while he kicks the crap out of SWAT guys.

Now, in terms of modern Batman. It seems to me that Batman is now seen as the paranoid general of the universe. He always has the plans, the contingency plans, the six or seven hidden Batcaves, the protection against nuclear blasts, etc. Grant Morrison had Superman muse that Batman is the most dangerous man on the planet. There's nothing about Robin there, is there? If Batman's the paranoid recluse, then what does he need having some kids running around for? "Don't touch that! That's my giant coin! For display purposes only!"

Also... a ward is a yucky concept. Won't somebody please think of the children?
 
 
CameronStewart
03:20 / 06.01.06
This just in - Lea Hernandez has apparently quit the comics business, and lays the blame on Miller and Lee (among other things):

Why I Quit Comics
 
 
Haus of Mystery
07:41 / 06.01.06
I don't think Miller's 'having a laugh' at his audience. I seriously doubt even the most jaded hack would write something with that alone in mind. I think he's writing for a percieved 12 - 15 yr old demographic. Hence big shiny dumb bat stuff, and page after page of T+A. Trouble is I read DKR when I was 13, and I liked it precisely for the lack of that shit.

Anyway, quite a crap issue, but God help me I'll keep buying it. It's like car-crash comics...
 
 
This Sunday
09:25 / 06.01.06
The Lea Hernandez thing is kinda sad and on target, but, really, is a blatant ass-shot that detrimental? Compared to, oh, the entire Chuck Dixon or Rob Leifield catalog(s)? Does Jae Lee have to stop drawing a sex-in-water, trident-in-the-shorts-packin' Namor, now?
I'm not going to turn this into a 'having kids rots your brain's funner functions' deal, but Hernandez herself as seemed to get a bit more readily concerned with how sexy/sexified something is, hasn't she?
Still, no Miller Batman has ever and perhaps can never reach the glories of 'Dark Knight Strikes Again'.
And maybe Lea Hernandez and other 'keep panties out of the superbooks' folks are right, but y'know what? Frederic Wertham was fucking right! Kids might be sexually effected, might be cognizant of aspects of sexuality in their comics and their lives? Adults, who're the bigger audience for superhero books at this point, are most likely, as well. And, when you consider adults, hopefully, you're considering at least the portion of the possible comics audience who are capable of actually sustaining a thought while wearing highly-detailed panties and flaunting their nice asses, or, perhaps, those of us capable of believing there is a sustained thought and perhaps listening to it being voiced, while the voicing party prances around their apartment in highly-detailed underwear. In other words, the cognizantly shameless, such as Frank Miller, and not the repressed, paranoid, shame-filled fatbeards who, most most most likely, comprise the bulk of the actual purchasing audience. For which, surely, there is an Alan Moore-lite written, Rob Leifield clone drawn, knockoff of 'Cherry' in a battle bikini, somewhere on the racks. Or, right there in 'All-Star Bat...' there's the psychodrama of Robin the Boy Lovetoy and his big, sulky sugardaddy... or Alfred, who's looking pretty good, these days but could use more ass-shots and torn tights.
Seriously, though, if you consider this in terms of action stories, strictly, it's miles above, say, 'Rambo' which features the only women as the most useless appendages possible, as Hooker Number One and Replacement for Daddy Who Catches Bullet.
 
 
Spaniel
09:34 / 06.01.06
Does Jae Lee have to stop drawing a sex-in-water, trident-in-the-shorts-packin' Namor, now?

No. I'm sure I don't have to explain why.
 
 
Spaniel
09:42 / 06.01.06
For clarity: isn't her point that superhero comics are frequently sexist, and that fandom is unprepared (unequipped?) to address the issue?
 
 
This Sunday
09:59 / 06.01.06
I think that's her point, yes. And, for the most, I agree. I just don't think that 'All-Ass Batchunks' is the best or really, a deserving, target.
 
 
Spaniel
10:03 / 06.01.06
Probably not, I was just taking issue with your Namor comment.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
10:21 / 06.01.06
How is it not a deserving target? Because it's from Frank Miller and he would never be sexist? Or because it's compensated for when Black Canary beats people up?

BALLOONS. PANTIES. CHUNKS.
 
 
Spaniel
10:54 / 06.01.06
Probably not

A very unexamined assertion.
 
 
yawn - thing's buddy
10:56 / 06.01.06
no, its compensated by black canary's lovely irish accent.

-------------

'sweet.

chunks.'

has nothing on:

'but you had to pull on the tights didn't you?'

from DK2.

'member?
 
 
CameronStewart
15:56 / 06.01.06
>>>And maybe Lea Hernandez and other 'keep panties out of the superbooks' folks are right, but y'know what? Frederic Wertham was fucking right!<<<

Hernandez isn't complaining that the ass shot shouldn't be in comics because comics should be for kids.

Lea clarifies.
 
 
CameronStewart
15:58 / 06.01.06
Oh, and I should point out that I found both links from a new blog - When Fangirls Attack!
 
 
This Sunday
07:45 / 07.01.06
Firstly, I admit, I haven't read the latest issue in full, so I can't - or at least shouldn't - comment on that.
Second: Hernandez's clarification helps me agree with her more and see the point.
In the end, though, Miller asking deliberately for an ass-shot doesn't appear to me to be as detrimental, or necessarily representative, of the sort of blanket and offensive sexism and repression-to-action stuff that applies and is demonstrated elsewhere in comics, comics fandom, and by comics creators and business. And not because it's Frank Miller and Jim Lee, but because the connection just doesn't particularly connect for me in the same way that, say, the 'Batgirl: Year One' would have. My pet peeve and continued annoyance at Alan Moore's periodic use of what's apparently rape-as-character-trait (which, I'm sure, everyone would like me to shut up about already) makes me want to spring on that as a good target, but it probably isn't (a) a very good target, or (b) nearly the best. The number of fans and professionals in comics that saw the All-Star Supes cover and were certain Kal was lustily checking them out, Chuck Dixon's assertion about lying to the artist over the true nature of the 'Rawhide Kid' mini (not to mention the project, itself) or even the panic some fanboys experienced at 'Fantastic Four: 1234' and Namor in particular, therein... hell even the mainstream-of-comics-fandom array from Archie-style sexbooks to Wally Wood's porno-parodies to "draw me Catwoman but totally naked" and... there's more to it than just Vicky Vale's panties, obviously, and it was just my brain connecting the dots straight from shameless ass to "Oh crap, what is it this time!" while bypassing all the underlying and to me far more relavent and important stuff, on the page, behind it, and in the heads of the audience and artists, that set me off.
Overreaction on my part, at the under-iteration I perceived on others.
 
 
Krug
08:50 / 07.01.06
Tripper I don't want to presume on just about every one of your posts that you're a Frank Miller apologist and an irrational hater of Alan Moore but I do wonder what you would have had to say if we saw a glimpse of an Alan Moore script saying "Ok Dave I'm shameless, I want rape. I want punching and knickers pulled to the side."
 
 
This Sunday
10:37 / 07.01.06
Well, there's a bit of a difference between random underpants and random rape, regardless of detail, but yeah, I admit, much of my displeasure in Moore - aside from his tendency to overly-tight arrangements - is highly irrational, subjective, and otherwise questionable, but it could be Larry Flynt or Jesus writing that "Gimme an ass shot" shameless stuff, and it wouldn't bother me.
As for being a Miller apologist: Robocop sequals are probably an unkind thing to bring up, but much of the Martha Washington stuff and the fate o' Catwoman in 'The Dark Knight Returns' never sat right with me. If the misogynistic overtones in his 'Daredevil' were unintentional or Miller was not aware of them, then, yes, there's something I'm uncomfortable about, there. Bat/Spawn was pretty bad.
If the third issue of this series is everything everyone's making it out to be and nothing more, I'll relent, and maybe 'All-Star Batman and Robin' is the best target of the moment. At least, in Miller's case - and in Moore's, since he flat out admits he's probably used rape as a PoMo trope of irony to thinly veil a more salacious-type representation, at least once - there's a knowingness, which may or may not forgive certain things, whereas many comics creators and a broad portion of the comics audience, honestly don't seem to get it. It's that bit in 'Kill Your Boyfriend' which had nice sexed up art by Phil Bond, where our protagonist's boyfriend is trying to explain his beloved fantasy series with its "strong female" who's got, y'know, a giant sword and proactiveness to enhance her battle bikini. There's about three levels of irony and two sardonic buoys involved there, many of which are probably pointed directly at the reader, themselves, but, still....
In the end, my hope would be that this issue actually spawns some new and better work from all sides, new 'Sin City' yarns and a 'Rumble Girls' follow-up... or, new new works, even.
 
 
This Sunday
11:23 / 07.01.06
Okeh, I've thought this over a bit, and - after realizing I was guilty of attributing to Hernandez some of the sentiment(s) that followed her comment - have to ask: was there ever supposed to be anything to Vale other than 'back to your newspaper, sexpot' ass-shot and lurid 'Wayne makes me hot' quick quotes? Seriously, I was shrugging her portrayal off as, y'know, her potrayal, and not the fundamental female figure of all Gotham, but if Black Canary and whoever comes next (Catwoman?) is identical, then, yes, yes this book is definitely a better target than I was presuming.
Bear in mind, I can see 'Dirty Pair: Run from the Future' and 'I Shot Andy Warhol' from where I'm sitting, so my brain's a bit jellied; I'm borderline to 'Alan Moore's a perv, Powergirl's innocuous, and Peter David's got odd and somewhat bitter ways of writing women, sometimes, hasn't he?'
Consensus? Did Vicky Vale, in the old days, have anything else going for her or explaining her career, her purpose, or her whatever it was she did, or is the Miller/Lee take in line? And if it's in line, in the grand tradition, does that make it appropriate?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
14:48 / 07.01.06
Daytripper: Did Vicky Vale, in the old days, have anything else going for her or explaining her career, her purpose, or her whatever it was she did, or is the Miller/Lee take in line? And if it's in line, in the grand tradition, does that make it appropriate?

Well, no, it's not appropriate - just because she's never been fleshed out before does not mean there's an excuse for not fleshing her out now; if one has 12 issues in a relatively continuity-free pocket dimension or whatever, well, one has room to develop characters. Saying that it's part of the grand tradition is a cop-out and ignores the fact that it's the grand tradition for bad reasons (ie, the female characters were throwaway or idiotic). I'm not sure off the top of my head how much motivation Vale has ever been given. She was a fairly prominent character in the first issue, opening it in fact - doesn't that make her worthy of a little depth?

Ass-Bats has been something I've looked at in the shop, gone "meh," and put back down. Everytime - it doesn't particularly anger me (I was a teenager in the Nineties, after all, Jim Lee's work is just ugly to me but I've been rendered immune to the more distressing elements of his composition) because it feels like business as usual, so I'd rather not spend the money and tacitly support it. The series looks boring so far - big budget action movie? Enh.
 
 
FinderWolf
22:16 / 08.01.06
>> Ass-Bats

Truly the gold standard in nicknames for this series (at least while it's under Miller), given the ass shots and acronym (and what some maintain as being descriptive of the quality therein).
 
 
FinderWolf
18:49 / 24.01.06
Rich Johnston at Lying in the Gutters brings us this...

>> AFTER LEE

The successor team to Frank Miller and Jim Lee on "All Star Batman And Robin" will be Frank Miller and Neal Adams.

Neal Adams first suggested that he'd be working with Miller on a Batbook a year ago ...
 
 
Sniv
21:15 / 24.01.06
Meh. Can Adams draw a decent crotch shot? That's all Millar wants to know. Seriously though, could the change in artist also bring a change of direction. Lee's art is very flashy, made for cheesecake and splash pages (heh, mind out of the gutters). What could Adams bring to the title?
 
 
This Sunday
21:29 / 24.01.06
No clue what recent Neal Adams work looks like, but he used to draw quite a bit of detailed sculpty forms, yeah? So, when barechested butlers in the rain appear, they shall have bulgy roundness, Batman will probably have lots of bodyhair and sweat, and Vicky Vale will prance about her apartment in nothing but underwear. Presumably, there'll be a plot to go along with it, and some witty and/or irritating lines, like the goddammed Batman bit, but really, it's the flesh and the underwear that apparently keep our eyes on the page.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
21:51 / 24.01.06
Modern Adams artwork
 
 
This Sunday
21:58 / 24.01.06
I saw that before... and completely blanked it from memory, possibly to protect my idea of Adams' art. Right, then... how would folks feel about seeing Quitely's art on All-Star Batman? With or without pantyshots. With Miller scripts, I mean.
 
 
FinderWolf
16:20 / 28.01.06
apparently the Miller/Lee run will go for more than 6 issues...from a Newsrama interview with editor Bob Schreck:

>> Star Batman. How long will the Frank Miller/Jim Lee collaboration continue and what can you day about the fate of the series after that?

>> SCHRECK: Frank and Jim are in for as long as it takes them to tell this tale. At the rate it's unfolding, it's hard to tell exactly how many issues that will translate into. I'd say they’ll be on for at least 12 issues, possibly more. Both gents expressed a desire to let the story breathe, so to speak, and to not worry about when it's done, but rather, how well it's done. After their run... well, it's too soon to be revealing that... But we're covered.
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
16:26 / 28.01.06
SCHRECK: Frank and Jim are in for as long as it takes them to tell this tale. At the rate it's unfolding, it's hard to tell exactly how many issues that will translate into.

*snicker* Could this possibly be because the story is directionless and the motivationally empty? Eh, that couldn't possibly be it. Of course not.
 
 
The Falcon
14:46 / 29.01.06
Spending all your money.
 
 
The Falcon
18:17 / 24.02.06
Next ish, due out 22/3, has a six-page foldout which is actually fuckin a.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:25 / 24.02.06
yeah, that does look quite cool. Wish I could see a bigger version of it. I'll have to wait to check out the issue itself...hopefully #4 is better than the first 3.
 
 
Sniv
19:35 / 24.02.06
So, Papers, Jim Lee's art is ugly? I can't wait to see that issue in my hands.
 
 
FinderWolf
22:29 / 13.03.06
DC solicits for upcoming #5 make it sound like in the All-Star continuity (if there is one), Supes forms the JLA to stop Batman from saying "goddamn" and "are you retarded"??? Oh, and kidnapping boys and talking like Marv to them.

>> ALL STAR BATMAN AND ROBIN, THE BOY WONDER #6
Written by Frank Miller
Art and cover by Jim Lee & Scott Williams
Variant cover by Miller

To show the world that super-heroes police their own, Superman has assembled a "Justice League of America." Can the Earth's most powerful heroes rescue the kidnapped Dick Grayson and save Gotham from the clutches of a Dark Knight who has obviously gone mad? Retailers please note: This issue will ship with two covers by Jim Lee & Scott Williams and Frank Miller. Please see the retailer order form for details.
On sale June 21 o 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US
 
 
This Sunday
02:39 / 14.03.06
That reason explains a whole lot about those old, early, Justice League issues. The cook-and-serve Canary and Wonder 'Queen of Cleaning' Woman; the whole clubhouse atmo and supernicey. And it's totally a Miller-Supes thing to do.
Alternately, it's absolutely the sort of paranoid perspective Batman of a certain era and type might put onto any instance of Superman establishing a club/team of any sort. Even if he invites Bats. Any club that would have him as a member,and all that... go brood in the rain.
 
  

Page: 1 ... 34567(8)91011

 
  
Add Your Reply