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Morrison's All-Star Superman

 
  

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Jack Fear
17:11 / 06.10.05
Haus, I love you dearly; but sometimes you've got to know when to put down the spade and just stop digging.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:17 / 06.10.05
If you want to give people special privileges to say and do whatever they like because they often write very good comics, then please feel free to. You will certainly not be alone in this - the Swingball set is in the shed holding its weekly meeting. However, it is not board policy to do so, nor is it, IMHO, good policy for human interaction. Board policy, such as it is, is embodied in the FAQ, which is quoted above.

I wouldn't seek to write that kind of privilege into the FAQ even if I had the power to, but on a personal level, including that of textual interaction on here, I couldn't help but give Grant Morrison a whole reel of slack if I were his target in this case.

Oddly, before you took this more formal "according to the board rules, I am owed an explanation" position, you were also caught up in an entirely understandable fanboy gush:

(Embarrassingly, I am now caught halfway between "OMG! Grant Morrison knows who I am" fanboy meltiness and "OMG! Grant Morrison HATES ME!" fanboy weepiness. Sucks to be me right now.)

Yes, strictly speaking Morrison misread your post and reacted inappropriately on that basis. Strictly speaking, he miscounted the number of times you'd insulted his wife (he implies more than once, in fact it didn't happen at all). Strictly speaking, his fictionsuit has made little contribution to Barbelith and so has little currency.

But... that feels like pedanto-world.

It's not just that Morrison writes pretty good comics at the moment. His fiction has been important to a lot of people here since the late 1980s. You can't type the word Barbelith without owing him a debt. He might not have started a ton of threads, but surely he's deposited a great deal of currency in the big bank of your imagination.

On one level, you are absolutely right. But you showed on the previous page, in the post I quoted above, that you are also affected on that other level -- that, like anyone on this forum, do feel perversely privileged that Morrison chastised you personally. You are clearly not immune to that. You know it's a compliment in a funny way. I respect and admire you a great deal Haus, but in this case I would bend a little and take it graciously.
 
 
Ganesh
17:20 / 06.10.05
Hmm. I thought the OMG! fanboy post was also Haus taking the piss...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:41 / 06.10.05
Oddly, before you took this more formal "according to the board rules, I am owed an explanation" position

Once again, please read threads, kovacs. I said:

Also from the FAQ:

There's a lot of friendly joking around here, but you may want to let us get used to you before you start throwing the insults around. Good manners are golden, even for anarchists-in fact especially for anarchists: a Collective can only hang together as long as the goodwill lasts.

Now, I'm still waiting for any example of one abusive and/or sleazy potshot in my name addressed to Mrs. G, let alone enough of them to justify the suggestion that the next one would be "yet another", rather than, say, "the first". I don't believe that there is such a thing, and I have the singular advantage in conceiving this belief of regularly reading this message board. If no such thing can be presented, I imagine an apology will probably be forthcoming, in the spirit of good manners, and accepted in the same spirit, with no hard feelings. Apparent slight to partner, hot blood, protective impulse - all very creditable.


Nothing about the board rules, nothing about being owed an explanation. You are unconsciously making things up in order to create a caricature of my position which is easier for you to criticise but has a tenuous relationship to what I actually said. This is poor treatment of a text.

But of course I got a fanboy gush - perhaps even the fanboy gush. I am a fan of Grant Morrison's work. I think the comics he writes are generally among the best comics that are written in their field. I had a fanboy gush, and the fanboy element of me was indeed both astonished that GM had noticed me and mortified that he had so misunderstood me as to think I would be of a sort to take the aforementioned potshots. However, and again I must ask you again either to read threads or post to threads more carefully, right before that fanboy gush I wrote:

If you have evidence to support your accusation, then please present it, either on the board or by private message, and I will be happy to discuss it, as the maintenance of Barbelith as a safe space for its readers is, of course, important to me. However, it is my sincere belief that in this case you are mistaken in your understanding, and that this has led you to make an incorrect and offensive misstatement of fact.

That remains my position. If you're going to cast nasturtiums, be ready to back them up. If you're too much of a genius to spend the time backing up your nasturtiums, don't cast them. If you do, be prepared for people able to separate homme> and oeuvre to question the perfection of that action.

You said: I couldn't help but give Grant Morrison a whole reel of slack if I were his target in this case.

And that's fine. You couldn't. As it happens, I can. If you would be happy to be insulted by your inamorata because at least it means she noticed you, that is also fine, but it's not a way I choose to conduct my affairs, as it were. So, Mr. M is free to behave as he wishes, and it will not affect the extremely high regard in which I hold his writing of comic books. Mr M. is at liberty to insult you, and you are at liberty to feel a warm glow at having been insulted. Personally, I think that being a spiritual father or whatever laurel you wish to bestow probably increases one's responsibility to being responsible rather than diminishes it. I'm not particularly expecting either instantiation or retraction - he is, as you say, a very busy man. I am simply saying that the right thing to do in this context would be to provide one or the other, rather than to bowl in, scatter some dragon's teeth and disappear, relying on apologists to spring fully-armoured from the ground.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
17:47 / 06.10.05
Perhaps I was wrong. I'm aware that I have a tendency to construct someone else's position in a convenient form for my own purposes, though I didn't mean to do it here. That is a useful but not very honest strategy.

I didn't intend to misrepresent you, Haus, but sorry if I did so carelessly. I've had my two-pennorth and I'm happily spent so far as this particular discussion goes.
 
 
Billuccho!
17:51 / 06.10.05
Oh, for fuck's sake.

Group hug, everybody.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:13 / 06.10.05


Huggles!
 
 
Billuccho!
18:17 / 06.10.05
 
 
iamus
18:23 / 06.10.05
Rather predictably, this seems to be less a discussion of what was said, but is instead a succession of 'lithers proclaiming themselves, directly or indirectly, to be more/less gushing fanboy than the other.

And Haus, obviously I expect you to conduct your buisness in your own manner, but in my opinion, regardless of the false accusation flinging, it's common courtesy to respect sombody's wishes if they clearly don't like the names of their loved ones mentioned in that sort of context. Even if the joke isn't about them but is at the expense of somebody else. That's the sensitive crux of the issue. It's the reason for hot-headed response and point-missing and it's the fastest route to resolution. Nitpicking over symantic details of phrasing and etiquette is not. You could be the bigger man.

For the record, you seem to be ascribing intent behind the post that isn't really there. Did anybody anywhere say they were "relying on apologists to spring fully-armoured from the ground" or claim that they were "too much of a genius"?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:39 / 06.10.05
Hi, meludreen! Why not try reading the thread? G'wan. It's fun! It allows you to add worthwhile things that relate to it. For example:

it's common courtesy to respect sombody's wishes if they clearly don't like the names of their loved ones mentioned in that sort of context.

What's that, Meludreen? It's a totally worthless comment! And it's totally worthless because it doesn't relate to anything that has been written, because you have made an entire coversation up in your head based vaguely on what is on the screen, but which fits better with what you would like to believe. Please to tell me exactly when "I don't like the names of my loved ones mentioned in the context of comedy Mark Millar impressions, Haus, please cease and desist at once" was written. Or shall I help you? It wasn't. Further, have I at any point not respected that totally imaginary request? I have not. It appears that you are making things up. This is not very helpful. How's about the bit where I said:

If you have evidence to support your accusation, then please present it, either on the board or by private message, and I will be happy to discuss it, as the maintenance of Barbelith as a safe space for its readers is, of course, important to me.

Or where I said:

Apparent slight to partner, hot blood, protective impulse - all very creditable.

Gosh! Apparently there was no space for that in Meludreen's conversation!

Now, I would like to dare you to relate your next comment, and oh God there will be one, to something that was actually written in the thread, not the imaginary conversation in your head.

Thread - head. Thread - head. Thread - head.

Got that?

(Gosh. Far more annoying than anything GM has said. Turns out that misrepresentation really is less offensive when it's done by somebody who is good at writing.)
 
 
gridley
18:58 / 06.10.05
Ugh. Let's just drop this. Haus was freakin' hilarious. Grant didn't get the joke and got offended. It's happened to many of us. Someday we'll all look back and laugh.

So... I hear that Frank Quietly is drawing All Star Superman. Did I ever mention how much his art reminds me of the paintings of Paul Cadmus. Yes, sir, it does. Only with capes.
 
 
iamus
19:00 / 06.10.05
You're cute when you're angry, but an unwarrented abusive tone like that makes fools of us all. I'd be giving myself far too much credit if I thought I could get that kind of response from you all on my lonesome. For your next post, I would like you to address fully what I wrote above (including the end bit, which you'll notice does indeed refer to previous discussion in the thread) and not just zero in on two lines from which you spin out the entire rebuttal. It might not be Shakespeare, but I'm sure there's other stuff there which can't be entirely encapsulated in those two lines.

Actually, I'd rather it was done in PM from now on, to save rotting the thread further. Equally, I would like it if we could discuss maturely without the needless slagging, but feel free to leave a final pithy and devastating Meludeconstruction here if you must.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
19:00 / 06.10.05
Melo has a very good point. Grant has to be cut some slack for misinterpreting/overreacting to the post, no matter what he's been up to with his life, simply for the fact that he nor Kristan have not been reading everything posted here.

unless... KRISTAN is taking the piss, Haus. =)
[very thin possibility, but]

ALL-* HUGGLES = kewl, heheh. and the irony here was SO THICK you could cut it with a plastic knife. the more I think parts of Barbelith have slowly adopted a Newsarama board attitude the more examples pop here and there...

kneeling before authors is stupid [only if they're named Zod], but so can be the opposite - even when they misinterpret it or think that someone has crossed a line.

baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack to the topic, that was good Quitely interview [never read one with him before, I guess] and a good recounting of the event. he DOES look like he was drawn by himself, like all good illustrators do - maybe they look a lot in the mirror.

you can better understand why he takes so much more to finish a comic than usual since he takes his time to add depth to the compositions via all the linework. cool stuff, just sent the link to some artist buddies.
 
 
Ganesh
19:03 / 06.10.05
Grant has to be cut some slack for misinterpreting/overreacting to the post, no matter what he's been up to with his life, simply for the fact that he nor Kristan have not been reading everything posted here.

Only inasmuch as anyone should be cut some slack on the grounds that they've posted without first reading...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:23 / 06.10.05
Someday we'll all look back and laugh.

I'm laughing already. Does this make me a bad person, or simply an impatient one?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:24 / 06.10.05
Hector - that issue was addressed further up the thread. Have a look:

Meludreen: You failed the dare.

Rather predictably, this seems to be less a discussion of what was said, but is instead a succession of 'lithers proclaiming themselves, directly or indirectly, to be more/less gushing fanboy than the other.

You may have decided that this is what is going on, but I would rather say that somebody was upset by something they read, and somebody else was upset by their response. Then other people got involved. It's neat, simple and doesn't require telepathy.

And Haus, obviously I expect you to conduct your buisness in your own manner, but in my opinion, regardless of the false accusation flinging, it's common courtesy to respect sombody's wishes if they clearly don't like the names of their loved ones mentioned in that sort of context.

This refers, as I mentioned above, to a comment that does not exist. It's interesting that you are more than happy to disregard the "false accusation flinging" - that is, what is actually written in the post - in favour of what you have decided, using telepathy, is actually "clearly" going on in his head. If GM had said, for example, "I'm not sure whether this is a joke or something, but I'd rather that my wife and I didn't get pulled into it like that", say, then maybe so. He didn't. I'm happy to concede that he misunderstood, but I am not so arrogant as to assume I can read his mind. Possibly you know him better.

Even if the joke isn't about them but is at the expense of somebody else. That's the sensitive crux of the issue. It's the reason for hot-headed response and point-missing and it's the fastest route to resolution.

I believe that I said above:

If you have evidence to support your accusation, then please present it, either on the board or by private message, and I will be happy to discuss it, as the maintenance of Barbelith as a safe space for its readers is, of course, important to me.

And:

Apparent slight to partner, hot blood, protective impulse - all very creditable.


Plenty of opportunities for low-intensity resolution there. If actual evidence, opportunity to discuss seriously. If not, opportunity to recognise hot-blooded situation and part amicably. You appear not to have noticed this, because you have made up an exchange in your head, and in that exchange I have to be pusillanimous and pedantic to shore up yoour self-image as the plain speaker of truth. And here you are.


Nitpicking over symantic details of phrasing and etiquette is not. You could be the bigger man.

How, exactly. See above. I have been happy to deal with the issue. I have been happy to put the issue aside as a spurt of misplaced but entirely creditable affection. What would the bigger man do? I suspect you believe he would roll over like a dog, because in your head this is a straight fight between an imagined noble and reasonable motive over here and an imagine "nitpicking" over here.

Incidentally, nitpicking? Semantics? These words describe not the discussion but you. Their use demonstrates only that you are unable to respond to any level of complexity in a discussion outside your ability to comprehend it without pathologising it and attempting to turn it in to a personal fault of the people who are cheating by using words and knowing what they mean rather than relying on yout sturdy, honest telepathy. I have already talked with kovacs on the role of etiquette, as opposed to, the role of basic manners, although probably not in your imaginary conversation. Try reading the thread, as I recommended and you refused to do.

For the record, you seem to be ascribing intent behind the post that isn't really there. Did anybody anywhere say they were "relying on apologists to spring fully-armoured from the ground" or claim that they were "too much of a genius"?

You use this as evidence of having read the thread. I will say nothing of the fact that they both appear to come from the last paragraph of the last post I made before yours. The ascription of intention on the dragon's teeth is fair enough - there is no evidence that GM intended defendants to rise from the soil, although they have, and therefore I happily retract the suggestion that he intended this to happen. As for "too much of a genius" - a slightly hyperbolic reference to:

If he hasn't read your recent posts, and misunderstood the one above, I think he has the fair excuse that he was redeveloping the DC Universe.

And other such points.

Now, I know exaclty how this will progress, because I have already done it with you once, and you have not at any point in the interim thought that reading what people write is anything other than "nitpicking" and "semantics". I asked you to display some interest in what is actually written down, you have chosen to rely on your telepathy. That's fine, but it means that there's no point trying to get any sense out of you on this less exalted plane.
 
 
Ganesh
19:32 / 06.10.05
I'm laughing already. Does this make me a bad person, or simply an impatient one?

It makes you an early adopter, dunnit?
 
 
bio k9
19:50 / 06.10.05
I Morrison's ASS.
Image hosted by Photobucket.com
 
 
penitentvandal
21:36 / 06.10.05
Jesus Christ!

Why not let the people having the fight have the fight, and stop jumping in with your 0.2p'sworth? Just a thought there...

'Well, I think what Grant meant to say was...' I've never been that confident...I don't try to explain what Bill Hicks meant to say either...

Look - Haus is an arrogant, hyper-rational, Superman of Argument who will not let it lie. Grant is an arrogant, egotistical, compulsive-futurist art-boy, who lowers his self-image for no man - and he has Emma Frost's representative on Earth in his corner! Just sit back and watch them fight, you know you friggin' want to...
 
 
Spatula Clarke
21:36 / 06.10.05
I can only offer up the following small piece, in the hope that some sort of solution can be reached before this situation gets ugly: stop the madness.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:45 / 06.10.05
Jesus Christ!

Why not let the people having the fight have the fight, and stop jumping in with your 0.2p'sworth? Just a thought there...


Didn't you just jump in with your comments on the people commenting on the original exchange? Say, why not have a discussion forum where nobody joins in.
 
 
Ganesh
22:16 / 06.10.05
Increasingly irrelevant, One-Man Clique. Could we make a concerted attempt to move on now?
 
 
iamus
22:23 / 06.10.05
Awright. You have me on quite a bit there. Fact of the matter is that you did quite clearly demonstrate a willingness to sort it out. I did read the thread, but I think I was a little hasty in jumping in with that after the general tone had degraded for a bit. That it did so is nobody's fault individually, so yeah, you can clock up two false accusations today. Apologies.

The " 'lithers proclaiming themselves, directly or indirectly, to be more/less gushing fanboy than the other" is what was getting to me and prompted my misdirected comment. As you say, it started with a misinterpretation and two people feeling hurt and then ballooned from there, generating a page and a half of rot (which I am currently perpetuating) that mostly seemed just a bit insensitive to those bruised feelings. It occurs to me I was just as fucking bad by not taking into account yourself. You should not have been the reason I posted.

I just think that the kind of rot in this thread is indicitive of a kind of Morisson worship that's just as obvious in its denial as it is in its acceptance. He's just a man called Grant (not George*) who writes very good comic books.

It's like he showed his head and somehow validated the forum and people thought "Shit, which side of the line to we stand!?". Now I may be right in this and I may easily be wrong but for it to cause this much rot, there's definately something there. Had it been any other poster, the thread would have been back on track within minutes, and it's not just those who sing his praises that were keeping it rotting.

It reminds me of the previous thread about the sycophantic interviewer (which I can't find to hand). It doesn't seem to me that any other interviewee would have attracted that much attention. Making such a point of the Kristan question was in my opinion almost as creepy as any questions that were asked in the interview. It should have been dropped within two posts.

So yeah. Sorry Haus, shouldn't have had anything to do with you. And thanks for pulling me up on that one. I've got huggles if you'll have 'em.


P.S. What is all the "George" stuff about anyway? Is it a way of keeping a respectable distance from fanboy gush by not using his real name? I don't get that one. Do any other comic writers have such barbelith-persistent nicknames?
 
 
onorthocrasi
22:31 / 06.10.05
I am really excited to see the return of solaris. Anyone with me?
 
 
The Falcon
22:34 / 06.10.05
I call Mark Millar 'Sparky' sometimes, but that's because I'm of the (possibly mistaken) belief that everyone called Mark should be known thus.
 
 
bio k9
22:35 / 06.10.05
This thread makes me horny.
 
 
bio k9
22:35 / 06.10.05


SUPER HORNY!
 
 
Mario
22:36 / 06.10.05
I think it's just generic 'lither goofiness. I've seen him called practically every male first name that begins with G.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:38 / 06.10.05
Is it really rot if the author of the comic you're talking about posts on the thread, and that generates some ripples of related discussion? After all, this title isn't out yet, right? There is surely a limit to what can be said about it, at this stage.

If Morrison has only posted three times on Barbelith before, I don't think it's too surprising that his sudden swipe at a major-league moderator gives people a bit of a jolt, and that they might want to comment.

I'm sorry if this is in turn perpetuating the irrelevance, and I agree it shouldn't carry on much longer, but the discussion above isn't all that far off-topic. Unless I'm misunderstanding how strictly a thread should conform to exactly what it says in the summary.
 
 
iamus
23:14 / 06.10.05
Wait'll you see.

We'll find out that it was a troll in a hacked suit all along.
 
 
The Falcon
23:26 / 06.10.05
The thought had occurred.

Also, perhaps Mark Millar is the wife referred to, in which case there'd be a fucking SOLID case.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:55 / 06.10.05
Meludreen: Thank you. I was stressed this evening that I was going to find something which would have caused the big black clouds to gather. I'm glad that didn't happen. I think that you are quite right that Grant M (the George is a running gag that originally came about because it was impossible to tell the diffference when people called GM "Grant" between hisself and Alan Grant - the same problem occurred with "Morrison" and Robbie Morrison, leading to, I think, Velvetvandal making one of the best posts evah, but I digress) inspires strong feelings.

And, to clarify, I don't have much of a problem with GM here, %as he will no doubt be delighted and relieved to hear% - people get confused and aggressive sometimes when they misunderstand things involving their nearest and dearest. I'd just like to know what behaviour exactly he (or whoever else is using the suit) is unhappy with with the use of "yet another" time, and go from there. In the absence of anything to the contrary, I have little choice but to assume that it was an unfortunate misinterpretation which was subsequently realised, and the hope is that the whole thing will blow over. Personally, I'd rather have a resolution, but a younger person might not be enslaved to that teleological view of narrative. In the absence of further comment, I see no particularly compelling reason to continue.
 
 
Colonel Kadmon
00:50 / 07.10.05
Wow! That was fucking magic! You don't look at Barbelith for a whole 24 hours, and the next thing you know, Grant Morrison and Haus are AT IT! Threadrot be damned! Entertainment's what we want!

Moderators - can we re-title this thread to Haus vs. Grant Morrison? Who, after all that, really prefers talking about a Superman comic that's not even out yet?

My fave bits so far in the Haus/Morrison WAR -
"Incidentally, nitpicking? Semantics? These words describe not the discussion but you. Their use demonstrates only that you are unable to respond to any level of complexity in a discussion outside your ability to comprehend it without pathologising it..."

- and K9's "contributions". Seriously funny, dude,but guaranteed to piss a certain type of person off (being very careful with word choice so as not to set a certain person off again). So, basically, good work.

I second the idea that when writers or artists get special treatment, then we've said goodbye to real criticism and the intillectually democratic ideals of Barbelith. I also second the motion to drop the George stuff. It's tired, and was never really that funny.
 
 
Mark Parsons
00:54 / 07.10.05
It's only threadrot if it is BORING. And IMO, this discussion is deadly dull, hair-splitting wankery! (no offense to those involved: we all wank from time to time, do we not?).

Let's get back to chatting about ASS etcetera (*)

Anybody reading the Showcase book? My 1st exposure to genuine Silver Age DCU madness. It's f*cking incredible. Between that, Waid's Birthright (just read it) and Morrison's sexycool, Quitely-rendered ASS, I'm suddenly finding myself a Superman fan. I thought I was a cynical old scroooge! Oh the shame of it all...

(*) I declare "ASS Etcetera" to be an open source, creative commons title for a superteam. Member nominations open to all Lithers.
 
 
diz
01:57 / 07.10.05
I also second the motion to drop the George stuff.

I will be very sad if the lasting legacy of The Night Grant Morrison Flamed Haus is that we drop the George stuff.
 
  

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