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7 Soldiers

 
  

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LDones
04:16 / 29.10.06
Well put, that's a good summary of a lot of my own thoughts on the Frankenstein mini. Frankenstein isn't a killing machine because he doesn't understand. He hears, understands, and makes the sane choice for himself.

His empathy not altering his solidarity or judgement is a big part of his character, as well as his slow personal process toward seeing that his place in the world has changed and he can no longer successfully be a loner. That he can be most useful in a larger framework, even one as sketchy and potentially immoral as S.H.A.D.E.
 
 
vajramukti
05:04 / 29.10.06
yeah, it's too bad shade has been handled so badly elsewhere. in freedom fighters and whatnot it's just a charicature of homeland security super fascism, which is just falling back into the same unimaginative bollocks, instead of being what something like shield would have to be in a superhero universe: crazy, nonsensical and trying to run things by the skin of their teeth. there's no danger of fascism cause they barely keep the world from ending, let alone controlling it.

and it's also that frankenstein understanding again. just because you're a big spooky spy agency doesn't make you bad, or corrupt automatically, even if you have every reason to be, just like being a self loathing grundy man with a grudge and no girlfriend doesn't neccisarily make you a villian.
 
 
The Natural Way
08:42 / 29.10.06
How anyone could've missed the spear as genetic seed thing is beyond me. The HAIR, people!
 
 
Ganesh
12:59 / 29.10.06
Apologies if someone's already mentioned it, but there's a cute We3 reference in the first page of the Guardian segment: in the picture under the BEDLAM ON BROADWAY headline, one of the pieces of whirling debris is a dog collar bearing the legend 'MY NAME IS RASCAL'.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
18:37 / 29.10.06
Hmmm, though I still don't really like Mr Miracle I quite like the fact that this whole thing is really a story about Darkseid getting close to winning his eternal war with the New Gods and the Sheeda being incidental to that. Did he perhaps think that they would keep the regular heroes like Superman and the JLA busy while he went after Shilo? And presumably this is Darkseid from the far future that thinks he's won, not present Darkseid?

After reading Issue 1 today I feel a bit cheated about the Seven Mystery Men not being explicitly revealed. Outside of the end of Zatanna I do wonder whether the whole story would have been better if they'd been left out.
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
20:04 / 29.10.06
The Seven Unknown Men are empty canvases, maybe, that we can insert whomever into; Zatara, Sir Justin from the Golden Age, et cetera.

LDones: Ali-Ka-Zoom, suspiciously always there when you need, no matter how many times he dies, has a 'horsefeather' in his hat. Horsefeathers being synonymous with 'bullshit', magic, and tale-telling. Fake it 'til you make it, as a big part of the 7S themes.

Horsefeathers is also the name of a Marx Brothers movie; they were famous for refusing to operate by the same script that the rest of the cast were given, even as the rest of the cast/characters struggle to continue as if everything was normal. Put that beside Zatanna's advice for Misty and Alix's typical mode of dealing with people, especially super-people. Also, the Second or Third Rule of Magic: "Learn to fool the experts."
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:14 / 29.10.06
The Seven Unknown Men are empty canvases, maybe

Definitely, surely? Aside from Zor, (Zod? Zap? Ian?) who in any case is apparently the Eighth of the Seven Unknown Men, so the original premise would appear to be in the toilet, right there, I seriously defy anyone to come up with a half-decent theory as to who these people are/were/will be/whatever based on what was actually said, in the text, in this shambles of a series.

Admittedly, I did enjoy this last episode as a Pop Art event, there were some nice lines, the art was great, but, as a monthly buyer of the thing (and the fact that there seems to be some sort of question surrounding whether this was the Korrect Order in which to read the comics just seems like the result of not so much lazy as arrogant writing,) there were far too many let-downs on the way.

I am planning on reading it all again, in at least two of the recommended sequences (again though, for heaven's sake ...) but too much of it seemed to have so little to do with the overall structure (off the top of my head, Guardian #3, Frankenstein #3, the whole of Mr M,) that having finished said isues there was the overwheling feeling of just a little sick, as post being sold an Oxo cube, not hashish, age 15. One asks oneself - 'Was I lttle bit to blame?' I often felt like a fool, for shelling out the cash.

Given the original structure (twenty eight episodes, topped and tailed,) it's hard not to think of George as a bad man for the opportunities he didn't take to flesh out the background properly, rather than just shoehorning in a raft of old ideas he'd been waiting to get out there somewhere, back from when I was keeping an eye on his flat back in '96. When he was more lovable.

I must sound like an old fuddy duddy, I suppose, but, if you're reading this, George, I'd say;

'Balls to the 'Age of Horus,' and such. I'm not having it. I like works of fiction to have a beginning, a middle and an end. The point of fiction is that it imposes meaning where there is none otherwise, if you like, but ...

More generally, I don't see why I should waste valuable creative time that could be spent more usefully sending doomed stuff off to publishing houses etc trying to work out whatever it is that McMicheal actually meant in the first place.

George, I no longer ... I don't know if I want to be your friend any more after this.

I'm not even sure if I'd buy you a drink, if we met.

I enjoyed the episodes which seemed to be to do with the
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:21 / 29.10.06
Stuff, I guess.

Broken, now. All broken.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:28 / 29.10.06
Or is this what you meant by 'Summer's End'?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:33 / 29.10.06
Thanks to "Funny Papers", a deserted comic book shop in a deserted mall on the "drag" of Austin TX on a Sunday, I finally got my hands on this. To be honest, I find the last three pages of commentary almost as confusing as the comic. The finale itself was a glorious rush, though still unsatisfying to someone old-fashioned like me who kind of wants storytelling and closure, instead of a story about storytelling, and gaps that the reader is left to stitch up for him or herself. Maybe it just wasn't trying to be my kind of comic, in that sense.

Anyway: the two big questions don't seem (to me... I am probably dense) to have been answered by the comic or this thread. Which of the soldiers died, and which one turned traitor? The discussion here seems to have concluded (generously I think) that there don't have to be 7 soldiers, or 7 unknown men, and that there are always more than 7, and maybe we're the soldiers ourselves, and maybe GM is all the unknown men, and maybe it's Ali speaking or maybe Zor (who? am I meant to care about this minor character's fate, one way or the other?)

Are we still counting?
 
 
The Falcon
21:38 / 29.10.06
Mister Miracle died and Klarion was the traitor.
 
 
Tom Coates
21:51 / 29.10.06
Unless I, Spyder was the traitor. Quite conceivable that Klarion was never one of the seven soldiers at all.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
22:01 / 29.10.06
and Klarion as Sheeda King is also a symbol for Innocence, a sense of Adventure and Wonder... Fantasy, basically, back at the control of things.

one soldier will "die" - Mr. Miracle

one soldier will "betray" the others - Klarion / I, Spyder [depending on how you look at it]

one soldier will "find" love - Manhattan Guardian [recover a lost love, in this case]

two soldiers' path will "cross" - Klarion and Frankenstein

[not that much if you don't consider Klarion as an actual soldier]

[somehow I thought Frank was meant to be turned into Grundy at the end, but I wonder what Klarion will do to him, as a controller of Grundymen our witchboy is]
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
22:08 / 29.10.06
[somehow I thought Frank was meant to be turned into Grundy at the end, but I wonder what Klarion will do to him, as a controller of Grundymen our witchboy is]

Well, Klarion is shown as at times openly critical of Limbo-Town ways of doing things, and other times simply wanting to avoid being set in their ways. Somehow, this leads me to think Frankenstein as his grundyman will be an entirely different lifestyle than the previous grundies...
 
 
Sniv
22:10 / 29.10.06
Sounds like eventually, we're going to get a filleted witch-boy to me. Either that or a buddy comedy with grumpy Frank and fun-lovin' Klarion in summer's end, set in their apartment. One is very messy, the other tidy. Oh the hilarity!
 
 
--
01:14 / 30.10.06
Well, in Uglyhead's defense (dear god, that's something I never wanted to see myself type), it appears that he was being controlled by the Sheeda himself, so there is a question as to just how much free will he had. They don't provide him with a backstory, so who knows?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:00 / 30.10.06
one soldier will "die" - Mr. Miracle

one soldier will "betray" the others - Klarion / I, Spyder [depending on how you look at it]


This entirely makes my point. The fact that three people replying to my post can't agree on the two most basic questions at the heart of this whole series - which soldier will die and which will betray the others - without graying the definition of "die" and "betray" - suggests to me that, however exciting, provocative and challenging SS was, it couldn't even live up to its own simplest narrative premises. This isn't me asking for a different type of story to the one GM wanted to tell - those two questions were in the text all along.

We know what's meant when we're told one soldier will DIE. It doesn't really mean that a character who already "died" will "die" again for one page, then come back as his very name and raison d'etre inevitably suggest. To trail Mister Miracle being killed but returning as one of the shock mysteries at the bottom line of the whole series is like saying "one of these characters will FLY" and having Superman take off on the final page.

We also know what's meant when we're told one soldier will betray the others. It means something like the way Streamline (?) and Maximan betrayed the heroes in "Zenith" Phase III - that is, they turned to the bad guys' side and endangered the rest of the team. It doesn't usually mean one of the characters will flirt with evil one million and whatever years into the future, but that in the present-day continuity he's going to fight alongside Robin as a kid crusader. It doesn't usually mean the betrayal won't affect the other heroes or hurt their mission in any way.

And there was another basic premise - the seven soldiers will never meet.

I'm not quite queen-geek enough to bring a comic down to a motel lobby for close analysis, but as I recall, Bulleteer met Guardian and Klarion met Frankenstein, and there could be others I've missed or forgotten.

I can accept that GM was telling a story that frustrated my maybe-traditional demands and expectations of narrative. But I think he cheated (or failed, or copped out, forgot or gave up) within his own framework for the story.

I did say exciting, provocative and challenging, and for those reasons I pretty much stick with my conclusions from the "SS Sucks" thread... that this was a worthwhile but flawed experiment.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:05 / 30.10.06
Yeah, the art in the finale was just superb. It was worth it as an art portfolio, I'd say.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:09 / 30.10.06
Front page of USA Today: "7 Soldiers' Families Were Misinformed".
 
 
CameronStewart
13:31 / 30.10.06
>>>Thanks to "Funny Papers", a deserted comic book shop in a deserted mall on the "drag" of Austin TX on a Sunday<<<

You should try to find Austin Books, or Dragon's Lair - both excellent comic shops in Austin.
 
 
Benny the Ball
15:00 / 30.10.06
I flicked through today - the art for the most part was great, but I got a little confused due to the changing styles and the panchant for a lot of ad companies to do comic panel style adverts in books (I get this more and more, I never used to, it was always an obvious Twinkies ad or something, but now, they seem more subtle!).

I did really like the Guardian line about kissing his wife though.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
15:07 / 30.10.06
wonder, you're exaggerating a bit. except for the revelation of who the 7UM were, all questions were answered.

it's all open to interpretation and that's part of the series' beauty. here what's crap for one reader is gold for another.

did you feel that much disappointed? i only regretted it not lasting for some more pages...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:14 / 30.10.06
wonder, you're exaggerating a bit. except for the revelation of who the 7UM were, all questions were answered.

Only if you're prepared to redefine the meanings of the words "die", "betray" and "never meet" to fit the comic book. True, it's open to interpretation in that way.

I wasn't dreadfully disappointed because I expected a conclusion much like this one - an exciting experience with great moments, but not much wrap-up satisfaction. The threads were all so far apart before SS #1 that I think a neat tie-up would have seemed too forced, rushed and glib anyway - the "problem" I have with SS is not in the conclusion, but the whole work really. From the halfway point onwards, I don't think it was ever going to come together in the way I would have found satisfactory: that is, with a sense that the author knew where he was going the whole time, and was in full confident control of all the narratives.
 
 
_Boboss
16:33 / 30.10.06
'it wasn't like it said it would be in the marketing!'

okay then...

i really really hope the thing about the dog being the twins' dad is true, because that's just smashing. i think she's kind of touching him up a bit in guardian 4, so why not. anyway, dot-to-dot enthusiasm aside, i think this was about as dolph lundgren as a comic's likely to get for a while. i've found the coagulating nearly impossible, because on each reread i've still just been getting lost in the pages and having fun - bits stick out like: the action freeze frame of frankenstein is plenty for his appearance really, what else need he do but bring the pain to the nasties? jake and carla cuddling, there for real in black and white, made me warm and cuddly myself. the pingping as mr. miracle gets to grips with his new powers ed getting direct action on them and not backing down from the media backlash. klarion laughing and the sheeda finally enjoying themselves with him. bulleteer well not doing anything at all like a superhero but saving the day like no one else could. justina's sanurai jack future laid out before her, with superheroing only at the weekend.

oops, dinner's ready.
 
 
Billuccho!
17:42 / 30.10.06
I really didn't have any of the problems that are springing up in this thread. Yes, okay, I did reread the whole shebang once, a few months ago, but even my strange memory recalled everything it needed to. I don't see anything wrong with the deaths or betrayals, either. The story worked well for me, and all told I think it's a great effort from G-Mozz and says everything it needs to. Aside from the Mister Miracle mini, I loved this "event" the whole way through.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
18:34 / 30.10.06
Yeah, I have to agree. Although I liked Mr Miracle, it was my least favourite of the seven (well, one of them had to be) and I'm pretty sure at least fifty percent of it went way over my head. The only thing that really pissed me off was the seven month wait, but even though it's a relief to read the end (which I loved) I can't help feeling a little sad that it's over. I haven't got so caught up in a comics "event" for years. Many, many years.

Yeah, possibly the ambition kind of outstripped the story, but would anyone really have wanted GM not to try? And with Zatanna, Klarion and Manhattan Guardian it gave me three of my favourite series of the last couple of years. I don't know about anyone else, but that's kind of a result as far as I'm concerned. And, reservations about MM aside (which I'm sure would be different if I was more familiar with the New Gods, and which has inspired me to check it out- another result!) the others were cracking good fun, too. Personally, while I think some issues/series were better than others, there's not a single issue out of the whole thing that I feel I wasted my money on.
 
 
Spaniel
18:55 / 30.10.06
According to the X-Axis review Grant's first draft came in at over 80 pages. I think he could've done with that kind of space, 'cause, while I enjoyed it, and loved the ambition of the series as a whole, and loved individual books (Guardian) even more so, I fall into the glorious failure camp. At base SS1 - like a chunk of the other series and most of the overarching plotline - is a bit of a mess. An exciting, innovative mess, to be sure, a mess that the world is a little richer for, but a mess nonetheless.

Some of us like puzzling this stuff out and filling in the blanks more than others, I appreciate that, but I'll take a lot of persuading that SS1 amounts to excellent storytelling.

Ooh, why oh why couldn't Grant have been allowed another 40 pages?
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:10 / 30.10.06
wonder, you're exaggerating a bit. except for the revelation of who the 7UM were, all questions were answered.

video killed miss wonderstarr Only if you're prepared to redefine the meanings of the words "die", "betray" and "never meet" to fit the comic book. True, it's open to interpretation in that way.

Oh come on, the whole point of making prophecies is to have them be fulfilled in some unexpected way. Denethor misunderstands what he sees in the Palantir and is driven to despair. In Season One of Babylon 5 we see the a shuttle leaving the station just before it explodes, in Season Five we see the station being destroyed because it's mission has ended succesfully. There's Torchwood 1.3... I'm sure people can think of other examples.
 
 
X-Himy
19:34 / 30.10.06
The not having a definite answer on the 7UM is driving me a bit crazy.

But think on this, how far in the future is Summer's End? A billion years in the future? So far past the Legion, and almost as far past One Million which means that eventually the Justice Legion A and its successors fail.

I remember reading somewhere (wikipedia probably) that at one point the effect of Kronas the mad Oan going back and looking at the beginning of time (giant hand and whatnot) is that it took several billion years off the lifespan of the universe. I don't know if this is still continuity, but it would have been an interesting solution to the problem, pre-emptively euthanizing a universe that would eventually mestatize and turn back to kill itself. Of course, the question is, does this stop the universe, or merely speed it up?

But please, don't let me start thinking on all the time paradoxes. My poor brain can't handle it right now.
 
 
Rachel Evil McCall
20:29 / 30.10.06
Sigh. It's gonna be a loong time 'til January.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
22:17 / 30.10.06
Given that cheating endings in regards to "A Soldier Will Die!" are part of the Seven Soldiers schtick, I don't see how you can complain about the same thing being true, here.

I mean, the first Soldier to Die(!) in the original 7S was the Crimson Avenger's Sidekick Wing. Not even a SoV at all. Untill, of course he was posthumously revealed to be the Unknown Soldier of Victory.

Secondly, the identity of the 7 unknown men was never supposed to be revealed. I don't have the interviews at hand, but G-Moz said several times that not all of them would make an appearence. So the one we do get a positive ID on is G-Diddy himself? Okay. Did the text ever promise a complete ID of the 7UM? Nope.

I think that the narrative does fall apart in a few places (the art fricking kills Mr. Miracle) and I think that parts of the experiment did fail here and there... but I don't think the previous points are valid complaints.

I could go on about how the very "idea" of the seven soldiers was a sham and that's part of the point of the book, but that's a topic for a different rant, methinks.

Anyway, not to be hyper-critical of others' opionins, but I think a lot of the book was delivered exactly as advertised, and some of the "7S Sux" complaints are based on the book not being what some here thought it should be as opposed to what it boldfacedly claimed to be.
 
 
Mr Tricks
23:24 / 30.10.06
Does Misty betraying Zatanna count?
 
 
SiliconDream
03:59 / 31.10.06
How anyone could've missed the spear as genetic seed thing is beyond me. The HAIR, people!

Thing is, in all the scenes where MM sees Aurakles, his hair's sandy blond, not red. Which could just be age, I suppose. But it's also the same color as Lance's, so there's a bit of ambiguity there...and of course there's Lance's name. Could both Harrowers be Aurakles' descendants, finally combining Alix's natural aptitude and Lance's obsession with superheroics to produce the fated weapon? Or is it an either/or alternate history kind of thing?
 
 
Mark Parsons
04:21 / 31.10.06
Dies: MM gets shot in the head. Dead. But he's the god of escape, so he escapes death (or seems to: maybe that's Scott Free pr another MM avatar at the end).

Betrayal: Klarion has no love for the Sheeda, but in the end does not fight them, fucks with frank & then becomes Sheeda King. Certainly a betrayal of the SSoV stuggle and his own initial dislike for the Sheeda, no?
 
 
Mark Parsons
04:27 / 31.10.06
Never Meet: this is/is not a TEAM book, and given that in #0 the SSoV get killed all together, having a few of the #1 team encounter one another does not realy meet the criterion of the SSoV meeting up AS A TEAM.
 
  

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