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7 Soldiers

 
  

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PatrickMM
23:34 / 15.11.06
I'd hesitate to call it a pisstake, I think it's more a reappropriation. I suppose you could read it as a parody, but it's more that Grant is using the form that Moore developed in service of his own philosophical ends. I think the fact that he chose to work with JH Williams right after Promethea ended indicates a respect for at least the craft behind the series.

Where I could see Morrison's gripes with Moore are in the fact that Moore has consistently been unable to do a straightforward take on the superhero genre. Watchmen and its spawn are the obvious targets here, but in the Supreme/ABC era, his work is a lot closer to pastische than the unironic embracing of superhero concepts that Grant does in this and other works. When Moore wants to create an homage to 60s comics, he does the self conscious replication of a Tom Strong or Supreme, literally replicating the form and style of those comics. Morrison recognizes that those books were of their time and rather than creating a carbon copy, he writes books that capture the insane spirit of 60s/70s comics. The one book that is a rote stylistic copy is the not completely successful Kirby homage issue of Doom Patrol. That winds up feeling forced and restricting.

That isn't to say that I don't think Moore's work is brilliant, it's just that Moore always seems to be about tearing down the building blocks of a superhero universe, while Morrison's work may tear down the fictional walls, but in the end rebuilds the magic those works were constructed upon.
 
 
Spaniel
10:45 / 16.11.06
I take your point about Moore veering towards pastiche, but I think to suggest that Tom Strong, his work on Superman, and Top Ten (to name but a few of his works) are about tearing down the building blocks of a superhero universe is a bit of a stretch. Sure, Moore's approach is often deconstructive in that he likes to fiddle with genre conventions and the stuff that makes characters tick, and he sometimes does that stuff in plain sight, but since Watchmen I haven't noticed him sending in the wrecking crew. Not much, anyway.
 
 
PatrickMM
15:59 / 16.11.06
I think Moore's problem is that he's such an analytical writer, it's tough for him to get lost in enthusiasm for a work the same way GM does with Seven Soldiers. Something like Frankenstein may be a homage to 70s horror comics, but it feels fresher and more improvisational than Tom Strong, which feels constricted where it should explode with coolness. I think the problem is Tom Strong and some of Supreme is that it's more concerned with replicating the form of the past than telling a good story. I think you can appreciate all of Morrison's work without even recognizing it as homage, while the 'Untold Tales' of Supreme would be WTF inducing if you didn't know comics history.

I prefer Moore in his deconstructionist mode because I don't think he's a great writer at doing purely fun throwaway stories. Top Ten is my favorite example of straight ahead superheroics from him because he's not trying to dumb it down, it's just a good story, and I find it hard to say the same thing for Tom Strong.

This isn't to knock Moore, Tom Strong is still better than a lot of stuff out there, but I think in many ways, it's a lazy work, like Moore is saying "You want me to write superheroes? Fine, here's a superhero." Rather than stretch the genre in a new direction, he's just retreading the past.

That said, if you class Promethea as a superhero book, that does pretty much everything I said he's not doing. I would argue that's the real followup to Watchmen/Miracleman, reinventing the superhero as someone who doesn't fight evil, but instead fights to raise peoples' consciousness and remake reality, a more benevolent version of what Miracleman becomes in MM16.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
12:09 / 29.11.06
those like me who drooled over SS's art might want to read this CBR article on JHW3 looking back at his time on CHASE.
 
 
Speedy
10:28 / 14.12.06
Bumping. If anyone still cares.

I liked that all the standard monsters appeared:
Werewolf - Vigilante, Lupelino
Vampire - Gloriana
Zombie - Spyder, grundies
Ghost - Ali-Ka-Zoom, Vigilante again
Frankenstein - well, duh
Mummy - Melmoth (in Frank #2)
and (just to make it seven),
Demon - Tempter, Gwydion maybe

I didn't like that "Zatanna" was missing from the in-story logos in SS#1.

The (allegedly written for Guardian but dumped) "King Cocaine" I'm imagining to be a blend of whacked-out Kirby Koncept with early "Luke Cage, Hero for Hire" street funk. Grant, you tease! Making your readers write the comics!

What was up with all the "older than they look" girls - Sally Sonic, Li'l Hollywood and Gimmix? And who could tell any of them apart?

A new Legion of Super-Pets (that also never met):
Vanguard
Teekl
Metal Mickey
Prowley
that police horse

How come the two dice looked identical at the end? Artist glitch or spiral dynamics?

I'll assume that the reveal of Shilo as the grown-up, escaped Captain 7 occurred in the Manhattan Guardian page ... 77 ... (in the "Jumble" ).

And, as anyone who's read or googled any of the earlier iterations of the seven soldiers knows, maddeningly, there were never ever quite exactly seven of them ...

So, nice!
 
 
Janean Patience
10:43 / 14.12.06
Grant, you tease! Making your readers write the comics!

Now that sums up Seven Soldiers.
 
 
Speedy
10:46 / 14.12.06
Sorry, just had to get that stuff out of my system.
 
 
Speedy
11:14 / 14.12.06
Whoops, cross-posted with self.

I miss Seven Soldiers the comic, and this thread, and Jog, and *not* the Beastmaster etc ...

I'm sure everyone here likes helping to write Grant's comics.

If only it paid better.
 
 
Mario
12:25 / 14.12.06
I'll assume that the reveal of Shilo as the grown-up, escaped Captain 7 occurred in the Manhattan Guardian page ... 77 ... (in the "Jumble" ).

Bwuh? Where'd you get that idea?
 
 
Spyder Todd 2008
20:58 / 14.12.06
Where'd you get that idea?

Ditto, but I'd add that I could like it very much with further information...
 
 
Speedy
03:39 / 15.12.06
I’m afraid it’s just an unsupported theory on my part.

There’s no reason it should be true, except that I think it would be kind of neat.

Look at it this way:

Captain 7 is an unnamed black kid who’s imprisoned in a magic box for supposedly having sex with and impregnating an underage girl.

Shilo Norman, Mister Miracle, is African American. He’s a super escape artist. He’s got form with regard to having lived a number of divergent pseudo-lives. Some of these lives revolve around guilt arising from a childhood incident. Could getting out of Ali-Ka-Zoom’s magic cabinet have been one of his first big escapes?

The present-day Ali and Don Vincenzo are quite old, as are Hollywood and Baby Brains (though they look young). Ok, it’s true that today Shilo is only about 23 years old. But who knows what being in a magic box or black hole or successive life-traps does to your chronology?

For powers/gimmick, does kid football star map to adult celebrity escape artist? Sure, why not. And an escape from a bottomless cabinet would surely set one on the path to a career in escapology.

In terms of the metastory, I think there’s a reasonable case to make.

Note that Morrison eventually showed us the grown-up versions of all the (surviving) Newsboys, except Cap 7.

We even saw Suzi’s children, and Millions’ (presumably) great-great-grandpup. The revelation of Lars and Lena’s parentage, and the consequences of such - Baby Brains was somehow the father, Cap 7 was punished for something that he possibly didn’t even do - comes from out of nowhere. Cheeky Mr Morrison drops this bombshell in an obscure clue in a corner of a crossword puzzle outside the main narrative. Ditto for the few throwaway panels revealing the fate of Millions’ millions and ancestor (in SS #1 and Bulleteer #3).

Many readers have had a problem with the way the Mister Miracle mini tied into the main arc. It was cute that for the “solution to the previous crossword”, readers were referred to the very page in SS #1 that Mister Miracle’s segment began. I think Morrison was acknowledging that there were a lot of question marks around the MM miniseries. He answers a few questions in SS #1. Could a “big” twist - Cap 7 is Shilo - be left to be guessed on an online message board? In this series, sure it could!

Of course if anyone has a good reason Captain 7 can’t be Shilo, I’m happy to hear it!

Throughout the series, readers are invited (implicitly and explicitly) to play a part in the story, and the story of the story. We’ve done it in this thread, making connections, looking for the big picture and filling in the blanks.

There are still questions and mysteries. Anyone want to continue?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
05:04 / 15.12.06
It's an interesting theory.

But I'm not sure if I'm buying it.

I'd argue that if Captain 7's been reincarnated as any of the characters in 'present day' Seven Soldiers then it's as the Manhattan Guardian, surely? Let's face it, why is Baby Brains so intent on giving Jake Jordan, a burned-out cop, the job in the first place, when there are presumably other more suitable candidates for the position? Unless it's by way of an apology for what happened to Captain 7 in his previous life? As the Manhattan Guardian, then, Captain 7 learns the lesson that escaped him in his previous incarnation, which is the importance of working at a relationship, and the meaning of true love. Plus, they both wear a helmet. And I'm sure there's something else Captain 7 and the Manhattan Guardian have in common, but I can't quite work out what it is ... Help me out here, somebody?
 
 
The Natural Way
09:11 / 15.12.06
I think yr idea hinges a little too much on the 'they're both black so they're probably the same' thing, which is a bit dodge for a whole load of reasons.
 
 
Speedy
09:19 / 15.12.06
Well they also have padded uniforms, and the football could have evolved into a shield ...

Baby Brains was linked with Jake through Larry Marcus ("El Mar" - another kid Newsboy supernumerary whom we meet in later life) who was Jake's fiancee Carla's father. Together they gave Jake the secret origin he needed. (Not that there couldn't have been a further connection!)

Ethnicity aside, the clincher for me is that Mister Miracle is shown to be quite good at getting out of boxes and nasty fiction suits ... like the ones Captain 7 was put in ...

Now, about Ali's cabinet ... Did anyone think it was strange that we never saw, nor were told why, Zatanna moved Gwydion from the broken mirror shards briefly into the cabinet, and then into the jar? Overenthusiastic story compression I suppose.

And when Ali and Zatanna burned the cabinet, what happened to its contents - Cap 7 and a couple of psychic investigators - ?

Ali tells Zatanna that they made a mistake throwing the kid in there. Wouldn't Ali have tried to get him out at some time? Unless ... unless ... he'd already escaped!

In other news, anyone got any ideas about the transforming dice?
 
 
Mario
09:58 / 15.12.06
There are two problems with your theory.

1) Ali says the box STILL contained a "dead boy", so he didn't help Captain 7 escape.

2) Shilo's childhood seems to be a constant across all of his lives. And that was based on Mister Miracle's backstory which wasn't in the 40's.
 
 
Speedy
10:21 / 15.12.06
Points taken. I'll have a think about that.

(I'd probably settle for it all being just a thematic rather than actual link between the two ... I'd just find it more fun if it was real.)

Changing subject -

Did anyone see The Prestige? Its opening scene of a proliferation of discarded top hats gave me a warm tingle ...

(It was an ok movie.)

Now I'm off to read Robin meets Klarion.
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
19:23 / 15.12.06
Hmm... any 7S readers reading the new Justice League comic as well? Because there are two bits that might be 7S related.... Can we discuss details of another comic in this thread? One of them is a big reveal in the issue #4 of Justice League.
 
 
Mr Tricks
23:33 / 15.12.06
Was sort of mussing on that over on the JLA thread
 
 
Speedy
03:15 / 16.12.06
Public service announcement:

Here I was bemoaning the loss of Seven Soldiers discussion, and today found this massive SS commentary that's been going on for two weeks!

Head over to 31 days of 7
It's some mighty fine reading, and it's not yet halfway complete!
 
 
mightybroke
11:53 / 16.12.06
Spoilers ahoy for ROBIN #157:






I was so glad to see Frazier Irving's art in this issue. The story was OK. It appears that the magick used in the Horigal spell (see the Klarion mini-series) has somehow leaked into Gotham. There's a bird-raccoon-snake-dog-squirrel-turtle running amok in the alleys while Robin "saves" Teekel from a tree. Not great, but not bad either.

Grade B reading with Grade A art.
 
 
Malio
18:24 / 06.02.07
The trade of Volume Four contains some interesting script extracts and annotations for SS#1, most notably concerning the paternity of Lars and Lena.

Going by the script for the newspaper section it seems that Captain 7 is indeed supposed to be their father since Lena is described as "a black girl with blonde hair and almond, almost oriental eyes".

There is still confusion though, since JHW3 chooses to maintain consistency with Cameron's depiction of her as white. Cameron mentioned back on page 31 of this thread that the twins were described to him as "blonde, blue-eyed Aryan types".
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
20:17 / 06.02.07
I thought we determined that Baby Brains was the father...?
 
 
LDones
20:28 / 06.02.07
From the script it seems Morrison's original intention was that Captain 7 was their father.

The way it ended up makes Baby Brains a possible candidate, and the finished work certainly makes a lot of sense pointing in that direction.

The script annotations in the back of the fourth trade, however brief, are interesting and illuminating.
 
 
Mug Chum
21:08 / 06.02.07
Can't anyone actually post those 4 script pages?

Buying issues I already have is only for All Star... (and that's only because they're releasing here in Brazil. And those 7S issues alone were quite expensive for me).

I'm still waiting to get my hands on that Arkham Asylum script till this day...
 
 
FinderWolf
02:28 / 25.02.07
from the DC Comics panels this week, this tidbit from Newsarama...

>> When asked by a fan if there would be any more Grant M.-written Seven Soldiers stuff? Didio responded: Yes. Grant is just busy with 52; when his schedule clears, he’ll do some more stuff.

Huh...interesting.
 
 
The Natural Way
16:48 / 25.02.07
What? Fucking excellent!
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
17:05 / 25.02.07
i wonder how...

a new 7S team?
 
 
Hallo, Paper Spaceboy
20:35 / 25.02.07
Shining Knight as the the head of a new Seven Soldiers at a girl's school somewhere, mentored by the Merlin of the Ghetto? With Bianchi/Irving art?
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
21:30 / 25.02.07
I think Didio refered to the S7 characters individually, rather than as a group.
I am praying for Frankenstein and Guardian regular series.
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
08:57 / 01.03.07
i'll join you in that prayer, brother... if you're not kneeled over dry corn.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:00 / 01.03.07
Given Grant's current workload, this 'Grant will write more 7S' stuff sounds like a 'don't hold your breath' kind of situation -- like something we might see in maybe a year, something DC would like to do with Grant down the line. This is total speculation on my part, of course...sounds to me more like Dan Didio saying 'we'd love for Grant to do more with the 7S characters when his schedule allows.'
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
05:58 / 06.05.07
Just some stuff I found in the Internet:



Doug Mahnke's "Frankenstein" illustration for the cover of Draw! #14




A Kirby page from "Demon", featuring the original Klarion (who is closer to the 7S version than I thought it would be).
 
 
H3ct0r L1m4
20:55 / 06.05.07
SETE SOLDADOS DA VITÓRIA #1 - 7S released in Brazil, newstand distribution:



a mini-series in ... in 8 parts, heheheh. JHW3's cover would be perfect for this, as #0 opens this issue [and is followed by SK #1 and MG #1].

it includes an intro by Morrison and his sketches in the backmatter stuff. maybe this is straight from the original TPs, I don't know.
 
 
Chew On Fat
12:55 / 08.05.07
A Kirby page from "Demon", featuring the original Klarion (who is closer to the 7S version than I thought it would be).

Regarding Klarion, some of you who bought the ongoing issues of 7 soldiers might be interested in this nugget from the fourth collected TPB. It seems Morrison set Klarion up at the end of the series *

so that the reader would be free to infer that at this point in his life Klarion went into the past and began his adventures in the DCU with those appearances in Kirby's Demon comics. All that 'Bum, Bum Bum the Witchboy' stuff is in Klarion's future at that point....




* Spoiler








in the far future, ruling the Shee,

End Spoiler
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:58 / 08.05.07
I AM IN YR FUTUR3, RULIN' TH SH33DA?
 
  

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