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What exactly does get you banned on Barbelith?

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Tryphena Absent

20:23 / 17.07.06

Paranoidwriter, for you I have a

paranoidwriter waves hello

20:37 / 17.07.06

Aw... shucks.

*p.w's little face lights up*

Thanks, Anna de Logardiere... Er... You know I'm going to end up pawning it though, right?

ONLY NICE THINGS

20:43 / 17.07.06

Isn't it spelled PwN1ng?

paranoidwriter waves hello

20:58 / 17.07.06

I think you have to PwN it before you can pawn it. Depends on the establishment and if you wear a suit.

Oh, and forgot to say: I'd like to thank my Mom and Dad, for giving me life and teaching me love; my friends without whom I'd probably still be off-line; my fellow Barbelites for being such sports; my second year junior teacher Mrs Myatt for all her encouragement;...

Tryphena Absent

21:03 / 17.07.06

Well it's from 1862 so you should get a good wad of cash for it.

paranoidwriter waves hello

21:41 / 17.07.06

I'm calling 'Cash in the Attic' first thing tomorrow. Yay, I'll get to meet John T! (sp?)

(Soz, I'll stop the threadrot now)

So, going back to what's been said further up-thread:

toksik: do you think the other member's right not to read those words over rides an individual's right to express hir own identity as ze wishes

Damn good question. Personally, I'd find it hard to choose. I suppose online it's also about providing a way for others to know for sure whether a member with a potentially offensive name is expressing their own identity or not (as Haus points out up-thread).
So I guess such cases would have to be judged on a case by case basis, and having an overal Barbelith Offensive Screen-name policy wouldn't be prudent.

Maybe a link could be added to someone's profile to thread/page explaining their choice of screen-name? But then, profiles are only readable by members, so...

Tough one.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

23:00 / 17.07.06

Going back to the Dragon thing, I'm not calling for a ban, but I feel I should warn everyone I'm gonna start yelling at hir very, very soon.

Must be the hot weather. My fuse is getting shorter. I don't really like Angry Stoat. But sometimes he just... gets out, y'know?

01:15 / 18.07.06

To be fair: Dragon seems to me to be someone who's not particularly used to questioning hir own assumptions—who seems unduly convinced that the rightness of hir conclusions is self-evident—and who has spent perhaps a little too long in the echo chamber of conservative mass media, as evidenced by hir citing of Michelle Fucking Malkin as a credible source. A lot of what I'm hearing from Dragon are standard Fox News talking points: I'm pretty sure that the "rape" comment (repugnant though it may be) is regurgitated from some talk-radio blowhard.

That being said, to date s/he has remained pretty civil—far more civil than I would be with all you goddam monkeys poking me all the time ("Have you ever been to Europe? Huh? Have ya? You haven't, have you? I bet you haven't. Have ya? C'mon, tell me")—and seems interested in engaging (or at least refuting) the arguments raised against hir.

In other words, folks, s/he's not a troll, s/he's a Conservative. And in piling on hir as viciously as we seem prepared to do, we run the risk of reinforcing hir stereotypical view of "liberals" as doctrinaire elitists who have nothing but contempt for the views of regular Americans.

Is that something you want to do?

It's your decision. But for me, I'm gonna swallow my bile, murmur "Vive la difference," and keep trying to talk to hir.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

01:22 / 18.07.06

Jack, this is why I'm trying so very hard not to yell.

So very, very hard...

04:55 / 18.07.06

A few comments --

For the record, the rape quote is a true one (a very infamous one...) which I'm sure put the last nails in this guy's political coffin.

I am a "he."

And, I suggest taking a look at Malkins book -- even if you don't like the messenger, I think the message has worth.

I am unflappable...no matter what the weather is like.

ONLY NICE THINGS

05:13 / 18.07.06

and seems interested in engaging (or at least refuting) the arguments raised against hir

Sorry, but where?

05:30 / 18.07.06

But for me, I'm gonna swallow my bile, murmur "Vive la difference," and keep trying to talk to hir.

Jack, the fourth post in that thread opens with a cut n' paste of 1000+ words posted by Alas, which thus far Dragon shows no sign of even reading. I can't see how you could put the case against his point of view any better, or express them in such a friendly tone. His response so far has been to ignore it. Burying one's head in the sand and chanting "Michelle Malkin" as a protective mantra does not indicate a wish to talk.

Having said that, I don't know if a ban is the right option either. As I said above, I was expressing my irritation as much as anything else, largely for the precedent it sets, as Haus says above.

ONLY NICE THINGS

08:10 / 18.07.06

Well, we have the category here of people who basically don't want to interact with Barbelith or the people on it at all - people who want to write, but not read or think. Shadowsax was one of these, whose inability to stay out of threads coupled with his reluctance to respect the effort people made to try to communicate with him ultimately made his presence intolerable. Dragon's a way away from there, but the issue is not that he's a Conservative, Jack - the issue is that he is a Conservative who is on current evidence incapable of actually responding to a point.

Regrettable Juvenilia

08:32 / 18.07.06

I think what's really important is that we bend over backwards to make the openly racist feel welcome and accepted, even if it means we don't challenge their views with any particular vigour.

08:49 / 18.07.06

Well, I think Alas has challenged his views very vigorously, and without being at all antagonistic.

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:06 / 18.07.06

What? You mean alas hasn't been "piling on [Dragon] viciously... reinforcing hir stereotypical view of "liberals" as doctrinaire elitists who have nothing but contempt for the views of regular Americans" and "pouring mockery on views we don't agree with... saying he's mad, he's ignorant, we can't talk with this fool - which is both ignorant and arrogant, and a favoured coping mechanism of the privileged"? But why would Jack Fear and elene lie to me?

09:15 / 18.07.06

Overstatement aside, I think it's pretty easy to see where Jack and Elene are coming from. They're just trying to head that stuff off, at least for the time being.

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:22 / 18.07.06

Oh, it's very easy to see where they're coming from, I agree. elene, for example, is coming from a position that Dragon is not an extremist and that there is a danger that Europe might be swamped with immigrants.

09:33 / 18.07.06

I think that's a terribly reductive, uncharitable assessment of her thinking. On the use of the word "extremist" she's given reasons, that, at least to my mind, make sense. I'm not sure I entirely agree with her (Stoatie's counter argument is very persuasive), but I can sympathise with her aims.
As for Europe being swamped, I don't think it's unreasonable, or remotely racist to suggest that opening our doors to Africa would be problematic.

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:36 / 18.07.06

Did I say it was unreasonable or racist? No, I merely reported things elene had said. If you think that, put like that, they appear unreasonable or racist, I would take that up with elene.

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:38 / 18.07.06

I hope that nobody would dispute that Dragon is openly racist, however.

09:43 / 18.07.06

The thing is, I don't think that you've reported her position fairly, so I won't be taking anything up with her.

09:44 / 18.07.06

I think that is a rather ungenerous way to be reading elene, flyboy. The point elene makes about extremism is surely that the term serves no purpose other than to dismiss, and that this approach is inadequate when the "extreme" position is so widespread. And the point about immigration has, as I read it, to do with the viability of social infrastructure in the hypothetical situation of no borders - this is an extremely unlikely hypothetical, to be sure, but isn't one elene introduced, and is mentioned in the first post and commented on by others.

I think that implying these views and those of Jack Fear are apologetics for racism is taking things a bit too far.

That said, Dragon isn't the greatest debater, and doesn't seem particularly equipped to step outside pre-packaged conservative viewpoints. That makes him both offensive and unwilling to engage. I think it is still too early to talk about a ban, but he is worth keeping an eye on.

09:49 / 18.07.06

Dragon looks pretty racist to me, but that doesn't mean I think he shouldn't be engaged with, mainly for the reasons Jack outlines above.

09:50 / 18.07.06

(engaged with for the time being)

Regrettable Juvenilia

09:55 / 18.07.06

I don't think Jack Fear is an apologist for racism. I do think he has a very odd idea about who is and who is not doing the civil engaging with arguments in that thread.

10:00 / 18.07.06

I hope that nobody would dispute that Dragon is openly racist, however. - Flyboy

Yes, but...without wanting to indulge in too much wankery...I think it partly depends what you mean here. Every now and again, people use the comparison (Deva has used it, but it originates elsewhere, iirc) that being called out on a racist statement should be like being told you have snot hanging from your nose - your response should be to wipe it off and go on. So, in that sense, yes, Dragon is clearly racist. But if the next move is to say that we should ban him for that, that we shouldn't tolerate anyone with racist opinions, then that is something rather different.

Being "openly racist" is something lots of us do, since many of us have unexamined opinions that surface from time to time. I think you mean something much stronger than this, but I also think there is a danger of equivocation here. I've no problem with poking Dragon - even if some of the poking doesn't seem particularly constructive - nor with getting angry at his stupid and offensive opinions. Flagging the suit as one that should be kept an eye on seems reasonable to me too, especially with regards his poor record of interaction and potential to engage in hate speech. Are you looking for more than that, flyboy, or anyone else?

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:10 / 18.07.06

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to argue for a banning - although it would have several positive consequences, including raising the (real and potential) standard of debate on the subject of immigration here, and letting Dragon know that hir views are unacceptable to us. However, at this point I'm not sure arguing for Dragon to be banned would be worth the long and brutalising slog that would ensue. If Dragon continues to post as ze has, one of three things will happen: either a) eventually ze'll say something universally accepted as beyond the pail, beyond all the stuff about "blacks" and "illegals" and the "undesirable"; or b) ze'll get bored and fuck off; or c) everyone else will get so bored of hir that they'll stop even bothering to respond with anything other than links to previous posts which contain arguments that Dragon has failed to address.

What I object to is a misrepresentation of the way in which Dragon has been treated so far on Barbelith, and that is what I think Jack Fear and elene have both done, quite aside from the latter's views on border control, which I admit I should not have brought into this thread.

10:31 / 18.07.06

For the record—and apologies that my initial post did not make this clearer—I don't think Dragon has been treated particularly uncivilly.

However, the general mood—Haus's insistent baiting re: being to Europe and the bit in Switchboard about Dragon's high school diploma, Stoatie feeling at the end of his rope, the very fact that some folks are even discussing a possible banning—indicates (to me, anyway) that things have the potential to turn ugly, and pronto. Hence "piling on [him] as viciously as we seem prepared to do."

Not a plea to "Stop it now," more a "Don't let's start."

ONLY NICE THINGS

10:32 / 18.07.06

Haus's insistent baiting

Or "attempt to get the answer to a question which was being repeatedly ignored".

Our Lady Has Left the Building

10:32 / 18.07.06

Flyboy Does Dirt I think what's really important is that we bend over backwards to make the openly racist feel welcome and accepted, even if it means we don't challenge their views with any particular vigour.

I personally feel that this is not a particularly helpful way of framing the argument (didn't you use a similar phrase when we were debating what to do about Shadowsax before the 'trial' thread?), to me it seems suggest that no-one could disagree with you unless they are evil racists themselves.

10:35 / 18.07.06

DING DING DING DING DING DING

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:38 / 18.07.06

I guess we just have different views on what constitutes "ugly", Jack - to me someone going on about the scary undesirable "illegals" is much uglier than the condemnation of same in any terms, or indeed the removal of such rhetoric from the board.

Lady:

to me it seems suggest that no-one could disagree with you unless they are evil racists themselves

Then I suggest you work on your reading comprehension skills.

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:41 / 18.07.06

But yes, I did use similar language during the Shadowsax Affair - because as now, I felt then that there were people who seemed to be of the opinion that what mattered most was that Barbelith not be beastly to the person with blatantly odious views.

10:54 / 18.07.06

Winning. Hearts. And. Minds. At this point, I'm not willing to think of Dragon as an enemy, but as someone looking for answers and opinions.

This isn't like the Shadowsax case, where he barged into an thread in progress and told us we were all dupes of the liberal-feminist conspiracy: Dragon started some threads looking for comment.

And his views, for better or worse, are not as extreme as Shadowsax's. Are they ugly and fucked? Yeah (sorry, D, but it's true), but they are also well within the mainstream of American debate on the topic.

In other words, his is exactly the sort of opinion we need to understand (not condone, understand), and exactly the sort of person on whose persuadability the ultimate outcome of this issue will rest.

Oh, and Haus:

Or "attempt to get the answer to a question which was being repeatedly ignored".

A question that was always tangential at best, irrelevant at worst, and clearly designed to delegitimize and belittle. Don't be disingenuous, son; You were out of fucking line.

Dragon: shit like this...

I may be an extremist but I am right

...is similarly unhelpful. You, too, were out of line.

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