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What exactly does get you banned on Barbelith?

  
  

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grant
12:44 / 17.03.06
Stick and stone.

Or.


Stick fighter!
 
 
grant
12:46 / 17.03.06
Or, for St. Patrick's day.

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Barbelith: Subcultural engagement for the 21st century.

Barbelith: We fight with sticks.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:52 / 17.03.06
Grant, is this icy anger?
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
12:54 / 17.03.06
So, you know, I know you said you've just followed up a few links here and there... Maybe you should do more research before getting yourself into something you won't get any help getting out of.

Hence why I said it. The question I was raising was - would this guy apologise if he wasn't called a prick by all and sundry. Maybe if he was just told that his bullshit rascism/sexism asn't cool then left alone, he'd respond better than he has when being poked at by Haus?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:30 / 17.03.06
Have you actually read the thread in question in which Vlad/XXII:X:II = XXX made his remarks? It's linked to on the page before this one. Plenty of people engage with him before Haus posts anything, and afterwards. Do they do so angrily? Yes. And rightly so. It is not Barbelith's duty to be nice to bigots.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:33 / 17.03.06
Maybe if he was just told that his bullshit rascism/sexism asn't cool then left alone, he'd respond better than he has

Barbelith is the only board you post on isn't it?
 
 
Sniv
13:53 / 17.03.06
Nina, is posting on more than one message board a good thing or a bad thing?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:57 / 17.03.06
Well, Johnny. It's a fair question. If you want to get a fair answer to it yourself, you probably have to think first about what you're asking. Is the issue me, or is it "all and sundry"? That is, what is the thing stopping Vladimir from, say, acknowledging that he was out of order and that he understands why people were angry and undertaking not to do it again? That seems to be the minimum necessary standard for coontinuing to post on Barbelith - see our Sensitive friend for reference. If he does not understand he was out of order, he has no reason not to do it again. if he does not understand why people were angry, he will have no way of determining in future what is apppropriate. If he does not agree not to do it again, we cannot trust that he will not.

Having worked out what your question is, the next thing to do is to ask about it. You've jumped ahead here, but that's not necessarily a huge problem. Just go back and restate your question.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:00 / 17.03.06
John: I think Nina's point is that the question bespeaks a lack of understanding of the rhythms of message board life.
 
 
grant
14:03 / 17.03.06
Grant, is this icy anger?

No, sorry, just feeling goofy. I do think it's sort of silly to expect everyone to be nice all the time. Although I do want people to be fun all the time, which kind of overlaps.

I also like the expression "a degree of stick." Stick master! Stick doctorate! It's not a stick of kind, but a stick of degree!
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
15:52 / 17.03.06
Great points raised, lets see if I can make some sense of myself;

what is the thing stopping Vladimir from, say, acknowledging that he was out of order and that he understands why people were angry and undertaking not to do it again?

He probably doesn't think he's done anything wrong (thought he obviously has)- he says the whole "It's a joke, get a sense of humour" thing, so I think thats probably why he doesn't apologise.

Barbelith is the only board you post on isn't it?

Big time. Is it that obvious?

Plenty of people engage with him before Haus posts anything, and afterwards. Do they do so angrily? Yes. And rightly so. It is not Barbelith's duty to be nice to bigots.

Completely right - but here's the thing. If this guys scratching round with his casual rascism, is it worth even engaging, becuase as we've seen recently, people can't believe that their attitude is in any way bigoted or wrong - Sensetive's reaction of "fuck you, I'm right", Vladimer's response of get a sense of humour etc. Why not just have like a three strikes policy, something like that - Tom/Someone else could ban (temporarily or permenantly) the offender? Because half these people, hell, they must be doing it for the attention, because they sure as hell arn't doing it to make friends.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:13 / 17.03.06
That sounds like a fine idea, Johnny. Right now, however, we can't even decide what an offence is, nor can anyone apart from Tom ban somebody, temporarily or permanently. If we give moderators the power to decide what constitutes and offence and the power to ban people for it, we shift the power balance on Barbelith - which may not be a bad thing, but which does need to be discussed.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
16:15 / 17.03.06
He probably doesn't think he's done anything wrong (thought he obviously has)- he says the whole "It's a joke, get a sense of humour" thing, so I think thats probably why he doesn't apologise.

In which case we've come full circle: do we want an unrepentantly racist cock on Barbelith?

Computer says no.
 
 
Sniv
16:26 / 17.03.06
Haus - I too, was being (perhaps inappropriately) goofy, I apologise. I was thinking about the amount of time I spend reading and posting on Barbelith - I don't think I'd have the time to properly engage with any others. However, I'll still try and engage with what you said.

That is, what is the thing stopping Vladimir from, say, acknowledging that he was out of order and that he understands why people were angry and undertaking not to do it again? That seems to be the minimum necessary standard for coontinuing to post on Barbelith - see our Sensitive friend for reference.

I understand your point here, but as well as being an issue about board-culture, it's also something that you'd find in pretty much any relationship. If you're a fool, and don't apologise or even recognise that what you did was foolish, then most people aren't going to want to be friends with you.

with regards to these issues in an online setting - perhaps some people don't feel the need to engage, or make up for things they did or said that were wrong, as it's not "the real world". But, speech still has implications, especially if you plan on posting on the board with any regularity. I think there's a massive difference between those of us that will put our feet in our mouths but are prepared to apologise and move on and try to actually build relationships in an online space, and those that will say inflammatory things either from ignorance or malice and refuse to admit their fault. I think some of the latter, perhaps posters like ShadowSax, do it because they think it's funny, and don't really see the names on the board as people, but just words on a page, and they don't really care about or think there are any real ramifications (or these are just part of the game). I'm not sure if I'd call these people trolls, but they are perhaps a tad anti-social.

Anyway, my reading of the gist of your post (with I agree with, pretty much) is that you feel Vlad isn't an asset to the board. You don't think he'll apologise, and think he'll most likely keep up with the unacceptable behaviour if allowed to continue posting. If this is in fact your point, are you suggesting that he's beyond 'rehabilitation' and should be banned? This isn't necessarily an arguement I'd disagree with, and we'll have to see what the rest of the board says (at least, the ones that actually read the policy). Sorry if I've misread you or jumped ahead of myself there, btw.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:31 / 17.03.06
Also, I'd take issue with:

is it worth even engaging, becuase as we've seen recently, people can't believe that their attitude is in any way bigoted or wrong

I've seen people on Barbelith very bravely and very willingly examine their beliefs and try to work out how they can be more successful people, and take the opinions of others on board. Right now, ender is starting a thread in the Conversation - he joined as a right-wing, pro-war Republican, and talking to people, including people here, has given him a way to look again at his beliefs. I think some people will not be able to believe etc, and those are the people who either need to be prevailed upon to be considerate of their readers for another reason than that their beliefs are not fit to be expressed, as they will not believe that, or be kept from upsetting people through their own lack of social graces - saving them from themselves, as it were - by for example banning them.
 
 
Sniv
16:33 / 17.03.06
aaaaaaah, penny just dropped, Johnny is Desperate Math. See, I thought you were talking to me a-and... yeah.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
16:40 / 17.03.06
If some people are willing to reconsider what they say/believe, then thats great. But most people just get defensive and say something stupider.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:59 / 17.03.06
Ok - so we've gone from "people" to "most people". I think that may well be true, Math. The Internet is not wildly conducive to people backing down, which is a shame and allows people to try to get by on aggression. However, this is not something we can change ourselves. All we can do is be fair to people by making them aware that their behaviour is not in our opinion acceptable, explain to them why this is, and hope that they comprehend the depth and intensity of our feelings. if they decide that not looking at their own actions is more important than being a contributor of value to Barbelith, then that's unfortunate but we should respect that as well, perhaps by taking their suit away from them to protect them from our humourlessness and us from their lack of introspection.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
17:34 / 17.03.06
perhaps by taking their suit away from them to protect them from our humourlessness and us from their lack of introspection.

Funny.

Completely agree with what you say.
 
 
Seth
01:37 / 18.03.06
perhaps by taking their suit away from them to protect them from our humourlessness and us from their lack of introspection.

I take it more that the removal of their suit is our ultimate act of self-protection in that it removes their very identity on this site, their only means of presence here. They can continue to read what is written in their absence if they wish, so I’d prefer it that *protecting them from our humourlessness* wasn’t quickly picked up by us as a handy euphemism under which we can cloak the act of banning under the guise of it being a better thing for everyone concerned, including the banned person. It’s the final sad closing of the borders to an individual to whom we believe we are not relating on any immediately discernable level, a decision that can only be made when enough people agree that a line has finally been crossed. I’m not comfortable in dressing it up as anything other than this, and as much as I find some people’s behaviour infuriating on occasion I’d still rather feel that measure of sadness that I just haven’t found a way to reach them, as to me overcompensating into a sense of personal responsibility that may be too broad is preferable to placing the blame entirely on them in all instances. Yeah, there are some people who just seem to not be interested in what I have to say, but I’ll always wonder about ways in which I could have said it differently to get their attention, even if I might support their being banned.

Whenever I read threads like this it’s often with an underlying feeling that if people on Barbelith knew what I was actually like without the filters I put in place to make myself more palatable I’d be liked and respected a lot less than whatever modicum of being liked and respected I enjoy here at the moment. I can let the trickier parts show on Barbelith only once they’ve been thoroughly worked through and processed so that I can talk about it from all angles. What you get is Seth with a three-second pause before transmission, a slight time delay in the live feed to allow the troublesome parts time to be removed before they wind up on your screen and in your home. I lie to myself in that I pretend it’s all about protecting the people of this site from what I’m actually like and maintaining Barbelith as a safe space from people who think the thoughts that I sometimes do, when the other side of the coin is probably closer to the mark: that what I’m doing is protecting myself from the way in which some of the people here sometimes express their opinions on the stray and ill-considered thoughts of compromised people like me. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t generally go about wanting to hurt people here… but sometimes I do find myself wanting exactly that and if I can notice it before it’s expressed I can almost invariably deliver a stronger contribution. But it’s impossible to live a life without pain and hurting other people regardless of our best intentions, and sometimes you just do it without realising.

I have no problems with expressed anger, I just prefer it when it’s examined for flaws and been through the tempering process, as it makes for a stronger blade that cuts deeper and more accurately. It becomes a surgical implement rather than a weapon. You use a surgical instrument from a completely different set of assumptions and motivations than you do a weapon. I notice of myself that it takes far more courage to admit that I’m wrong when it seems as though the person I’m talking to wants to do me harm compared to when that person really wants to engage me as a person rather than a set of words on a screen or a perceived set of beliefs and behaviours by demonstrating love and acceptance for me while addressing ways in which I think and behave. When it’s done well it’s like they’ve taken on the mantle of my defence mechanisms and given me breathing room to change and/or heal. Sometimes I look at the posts I make in unfettered anger and am left deeply troubled by the realisation of what I’m actually attempting to achieve through those contributions rather than what I uncritically think I’m trying to achieve. It’s such a barren feeling when you come to know that what you believed were your best and most righteous words were a cloak for something horribly other.

Do we want to win people, or do we want to win? In many circumstances that question is a lie, those things aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive, and in my experience we can achieve both far more often than we realise.
 
 
Char Aina
07:26 / 18.03.06
compromised people like me

like all of us.
you dont need to single yourself out as especially human, dude.
we are all pretending to a greater or lesser degree. its how community works, i reckon.

protecting them

i think it seems a bit... disingenuous? to characterise banning as protective of the bannee's sensibilities. to me it's clearly two things; a punishment of sorts and a protection for the rest of the community.
i think anyone who's banned will be gaining more pain than they lose.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:30 / 18.03.06
Where did I say sensibilities? If they have demonstrated that they unable or unwilling to consider any viewpoint other than their own, they will become progressively more confused, unhappy and aggressive in attempting to deny the validity of other viewpoints, which will lead to others meting out progressively less friendly treatment. Nobody has fun there.
 
 
Seth
09:55 / 18.03.06
If they have demonstrated that they unable or unwilling to consider any viewpoint other than their own

All you can ever really say when it comes to the internet is that they seem to be unable or unwilling in the context of what they write to the messageboard. In the past I've become convinced of someone's point of view and still thought, "I'll be damned if I'll show them that." But in terms of the way we engage with the people here it amounts to pretty much the same thing: what they write is all we have to go on. We don't have access to them in totality (although sometimes when some insults start getting thrown I wonder whether some of us think we have that kind of access).
 
 
Cat Chant
10:21 / 18.03.06
Well, yes, but all we're talking about (as you say in your very well-expressed and thought-provoking long post above) is taking away their suit, the 'them' that we have access to on this noticeboard. No-one here is going to (or can) do anything to 'them in their totality'.
 
 
Seth
10:41 / 18.03.06
I agree Deva. In practise it amounts to the same thing in this space, what they choose to display here is all we have to go on and so burning their suit is the final option we have in preventing their harmful behaviour (unless we know them offsite).
 
 
The Falcon
10:50 / 19.03.06
Back to Vladimir, I do have a reply that he's said I can put in our 'mod discussion', but I've asked him to reconsider it (I'm not sure he's aware if he can post in Policy?) No reply yet, so I'll give it a couple days.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:48 / 19.03.06
It's good that we can turn this into one person's pity party (with valet).

I feel for Vladimir, really I do. It's not easy to find out that your actions are not, as you believe, hella smart, but are in fact dumb, and that there are good reasons for them being dumb. At times I have been corrected in terms of my attitudes on race or gender and the immediate reaction is often shock and irritation - oh, they can't be right about this, becuase that would suggest I was insert ism here, and I can't be. Whether you can get through that makes a huge difference to whether you get to play with the humans.

Vladimir's obviously not having a very happy time right now. Being Vladimir is not a very happy place to be. In a perfect world, Barbelith would be a place where he could find support. Unfortunately, that can't happen while he is still reserving the right to normalise racism. It's possible that he doesn't have the social skills to make it work anyway, and would be better off on a board more tolerant of casual racism and sexism. That's not my affair. My affair is purely to help to sort out Barbelith, and part of the affair is helping to make sure that people reading Barbelith do not feel like they are getting hit in the eye with uninformed racism or sexism, and that racism or sexism is not permitted or encouraged by Barbelith.

As a side issue, I find it unfortunate that we have a situation now where it appears that Barbelith cares less about discrimination against women and dark-skinned people than it does about discrimination against gay men and Jewish people. I'd like us to be more consistent, and, while many of the issues being discussed around "Sexism 101" are arguably grey areas, "I get to say that banging Indians makes your cock drop off and it's your problem if you don't like it" is not.

As an aside, Grant, this is something where I feel being goofy is maybe not a great strategy. Your approach to Vladimir's cock-rotting Indians, to Sensitive Rapist's name change and indeed to this thread has involved going off on a whimsical tangent, and I'm not sure it makes it seem as if you're taking the issues very seriously, or feel that others should be.
 
 
The Falcon
12:05 / 19.03.06
I haven't read any of grant's responses as whimsical so much as best-case scenarios; whether in any case they were factually correct so much as overwhelmingly positive reads is another matter, but it remains highly unlikely the board as a whole will respond in a unitarian fashion to any event, I should think.
 
 
The Falcon
12:08 / 19.03.06
Oh, I'm the valet? Yeah, thanks.

I'm just trying to resolve the issue once and for all.
 
 
Ganesh
12:16 / 19.03.06
How green are you, valet?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:20 / 19.03.06
I think it's pretty damn telling that VJB hasn't even bothered to enter this discussion. We have a (presumably pretty stroppy) PM to Duncan and er that's it. Doesn't know if he can post in Policy? Please.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:44 / 19.03.06
Oh and for fuck's sake, the man said that having sex with people from India might make his cock drop off. Is a simple apology for that singularly revolting comment really too much to ask? No it's fucking not.

I'd like an apology for the whole 'skirt' thing too but I'm not really holding my breath.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:45 / 19.03.06
In typical female style, Mordant, you are flipping the script.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:01 / 19.03.06
I'm only vilifying him because he's a phosphorescent seraphim (sic).
 
 
Bed Head
14:21 / 19.03.06
(You know, I think he actually apologised for the "phosphorescent seraphim" post. Not because of the phosphorescent seraphim stuff, but still.)
 
  

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