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What exactly does get you banned on Barbelith?

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
00:03 / 18.08.06
Well, that's my problem. I'm torn between Barbelith as safeish space and Barbelith as place where people can learn not to be stupid. But, as has been mentioned, on Barbelith I'm part of the closest thing to an elite we have.


What I would like to see is a separate thread discussing what 33 has done so far, and how to deal with it. If we agree that he is probably not going to get much out of Barbelith, wse should ask him to leave. If he refuses, at that point we should talk about a ban.

I realise I am asking that we offer a level of dignity he is not offering his targets, and that pity is a part of that. I'm conflicted about that. However, I would like to see a thread in which what he has done that is offensive is detailed with references, and he is invited to provide a coherent response. That strikes me as the terminus post quem of banning.
 
 
Jackie Susann
04:37 / 18.08.06
I don't see the slightest chance such a thread would be at all productive. On the other hand, I did find his attempts to defend himself on this thread hilarious, so it might be worth a shot.

That you are also hypicrites too considering the amount or lewd , unintelligent , fuck driven pathetic piecies of so called human clones that find their way into your meaningfull lives..
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
05:29 / 18.08.06
I have to agree, 33 has done nothing to show he's willing to talk about his behaviour, just come up with various justifications, HE's not doing anything wrong, it's US being mean. In my response I did point to the 'Barbelith doesn't care if you're joking' thread but 33's response may well be that he doesn't care if we don't care if he's joking.
 
 
*
06:14 / 18.08.06
As far as I can see, there are a number of potential benefits of doing it that way, Haus:

1) Possibly 33 will come to understand what is acceptable behavior here, change his attitudes, and become a valuable poster.
2) Possibly 33 will again be incoherent and offensive and will be banned, but others on Barbelith will learn something from the experience.
3) Possibly we will only have the satisfaction of knowing we gave him every possible shot.
4) Possibly we will learn that that tactic doesn't work and should not be implemented again.

Potential drawbacks:

1) It will take longer to ban 33 (for those of us feeling as if banning is the only option)
2) It may make it seem impossible for him to change his position, as he's "backed into a corner" etc (for those of us hoping he'll change somehow)
3) It may be long and arduous and taxing on the board as a whole
4) It may send the message that Barbelith is a place where people who say things which many posters find offensive are subjected to a kind of trial (read: a lot of attention).

Other thoughts?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
07:46 / 18.08.06
Benefit 1 will never happen. Drawbacks 3 and 4 will almost certainly happen.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:55 / 18.08.06
Well, the timescale on banning depends on Tom doing it, which in turn depends on Tom being convinced to do it.

What I don't see here, to be honest, is how 33 differs from Shadowsax. Shadowsax made offensive comments and was rude and dismissive to members of Barbelith he thought were women. He refused to countenance changing or examining his views, he dismissed out of hand any arguments or evidence that did not support his own beliefs, and he stated frequently that the problem was Barbelith, not him. The only difference is that he used relatively conventional English in doing so.

So, if the argument is that the "Trial of Shadowsax" was a mistake, that he should have been banned before that discussion took place on the strength of the discussion that toook place in this thread, and that we should alter our behaviour to reflect that, then that's one thing. If the argument is that people who don't talk proper don't get a trial thread and people who do do, that's kind of another.
 
 
Jawsus-son Starship
08:21 / 18.08.06
Shadow Sax did it with a lot more style. He was like the Sunday Times, 33 is like the Sun. To compare the two is like comparing Tesco's Value Misogyny and the Misogyny of a top designer, maybe one like Versace. Sure they're both offensive, but one clearly is more classy than the other.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:27 / 18.08.06
Well, I suppose it's progress that you've come round to the idea that Shadowsax was a misogynist, but I don't see the relevance. We should be nicer to bigots who use punctuation in a way that if not correct at least reasonably closely resembles English usage? Why, exactly?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:36 / 18.08.06
Because that is something which an awful lot of people who post here want Barbelith to be characterised by: the idea that you can express any opinion, you just have to do so in the right way. I may not like it, you may not like it, but it's still pretty popular...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
08:45 / 18.08.06
I'm confused by the idea that misogyny and homophobia can be done with "style" and be "classy". At best it makes me think of Ron Burgundy in Anchorman.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:53 / 18.08.06
Well, obviously this depends on how much you are prepared to admire misogynist behaviour. From my point of view, as I say, there is almost no difference between Shadowsax and 33, and I think the likelihood of getting either of them to change their views or their feeling of entitlement to share it is about the same. So, why does Shadowsax get a thread and not 33? Has he set a precedent which can now be acted on in future?
 
 
Evil Scientist
09:06 / 18.08.06
For whatever reason 33 has chosen (or not being able to) post any kind of response in the 24 hours since he "contributed" to this thread (although that was only a time limit for my patience and not one intended to be Barbe-wide).

I fully support banning him as soon as possible. I'd also like to propose that any posts he makes outside of this thread from now until the situation is resolved are deleted. I'm putting him on "ignore".
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:13 / 18.08.06
Thanks, Evil Scientist. Now, could you please explain why that treatment - his immediate bannind and the deletion of any further comments he makes - should differ so profoundly from the treatment of Shadowsax?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
09:19 / 18.08.06
I suppose one idea to consider is that the "trial" of Shadowsax was long and drawn-out, and difficult, and there was a fair amount of disagreement about how successful it was, and whether with hindsight it had been the best thing to do.

If the response to Shadowsax had been unambiguously successful in most people's eyes ~ maybe it was, but there was at least a minority who felt differently ~ then there might be less question about whether the same policy should immediately apply to 33.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:35 / 18.08.06
Well, yes. There is a question there. I'm asking it. The question is "Why should 33 not receive the same treatment that Shadowsax received?" For example, while his banning was being discussed Shadowsax started at least two threads in "Books", I believe, which were not deleted. His response in this thread is equivalent to the response of Crimes Against Fashion (real! live! tiger!), whose behaviour was not seen as a self-evident reason to ban.

Celane suggested last time around that the process should go like this:

1) Collect all the evidence we can (links will do fine) in one place.
2) Summarize evidence, complete with references to:
* pejorative statements on the part of the accused,
* discussion from other posters ("Hey, this is wrong!"),
* recurrent recalcitrance from the accused,
for Mr. Coates. Conclude with a "And this is why _____ needs to be banned."
3) Point Mr. Coates at evidence/summary thread.~


Now, we could do all of these things in this thread, and that would be fine. However, so far we have not. My question is why we have not. So far the only answer I have received - that ShadowSax was "classier" - has not convinced me. If you believe that a lesson taken from the ShadowSax thread was that there is no need for such threads, or that Tom should be forced to trawl threads himself rather than have links in a single place, in order to get a better feel for the board's temperature, then that's fine, but it needs to be said and we can then discuss it.
 
 
Evil Scientist
10:00 / 18.08.06
Thanks, Evil Scientist. Now, could you please explain why that treatment - his immediate bannind and the deletion of any further comments he makes - should differ so profoundly from the treatment of Shadowsax?

Is it so different as to be considered profoundly so? "As soon as possible" is not quite the same as "immediate" in my view. As soon as possible indicates (again to me) that whilst I'd appreciare alacrity I accept that factors may prevent the ban from happening right now, at this very second. Is that wrong? Next time I should just say that.

In my view (which I accept may well not be that of anyone else) the Shadowsax case did set a precedent. It was decided (by the majority of posters active in the thread) that his behaviour and his unwillingness to engage with his critics meant that his presence on the board was not considered desirable hence the ban was enacted.

Whilst we have yet to start a (for want of a better term) trial thread there is, in my opinion, sufficient evidence of bad behaviour, that is at least on a level with Shadwosax, to warrent him being expelled when it is combined with the lack of actual engagement from him on the subject. As I said the 24 hours thing was for my personal patience on the subject. I expect that 33 will be given a chance to have his say before any actual banning takes place.

As I see it, Shadowsax had a longer review process because we were still trying to decide if what he was doing was a bannable offence. It was decided that it was. Surely reacting a little faster this time around on the basis of past experience is not unreasonable? What do you think?

The call for preventing him responding on other threads by deleting any further posts was mis-placed. On reflection it is not something that should be done without further discussion. I will try and get that discussion rolling in an appropriate thread.

Cheers for bringing me up on that Haus.
 
 
Ganesh
10:53 / 18.08.06
I apologise for never having quite got my shit together to start a How Should We Handle Difficult Posters Who We Think Might Be Mentally Ill? thread, because I think that, in some cases, a very strong suspicion of yer actual psychiatric disorder might be a reason for skipping a drawn-out process. It's a very tenuous point, though, and I'm not fully convinced it applies here.

I'd suggest starting a new thread.
 
 
Ganesh
10:54 / 18.08.06
I'm not saying necessarily give it a whole week, but maybe time-limit discussion to a few days?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:17 / 18.08.06
We appear to have a troll in the Temple, which is annoying because it was just getting all exiting again. Jut flagging the problem.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:25 / 18.08.06
Oh dear. Christian-bashing's really not the sort of thing I'd like us to tolerate either. Glad to see it's getting short shrift.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:30 / 18.08.06
It really gets on my nerves because we have one of the very few occult-related fora that doesn't come with bashing of teh eval/stoopid XTIANS!1!! as standard.
 
 
Ticker
12:02 / 18.08.06
yes I call bullshit on the troll in the Temple. I'm offended on behalf of monotheists* and for all of us as a community of believers in tolerance.

Can you lock/delete the thread at least?



*the poster's arguements are geared towards monotheistic cosmologies and are laughable ill thought out tripe.
 
 
Seth
12:06 / 18.08.06
The actions of the topic starter - while rude - don't preclude the rest of us from writing some good stuff in response. It's an opportunity to write about what we believe in response.

I'm all for seeing where this one goes, and I'll be contributing some stuff to it when I get the chance. I think a certain amount of anti-Christian material can be tolerated if the people who disagree with it make it clear why they disagree and post some good stuff on there. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with locking the thread just yet.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:18 / 18.08.06
Sorry, but are we proposing that this user be banned? If not, then this is a moderator request, really...
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:21 / 18.08.06
Why should 33 not receive the same treatment that Shadowsax received?

OK, let me say why I think there is a difference. Shadowsax had a sexist outlook which informed his politics and posts, allowing him to construct sometimes rather bizzarre fantasies involving feminist conspiracies.

Now, 33, on the other hand is a poster who resorts to insults, often with a whacky bigoted slant, at the drop of a hat. Apart from often being incomprehensible, he is also quite unwilling to engage with others or even acknowledge that his behaviour is offensive.

I know that some people aren't going to see much difference between the two, but for me the level of engagement is entirely different, and the unapologetic abuse wasn't really a feature of Shadowsax style. To put it in some kind of relevant perspective, I can't see alas being able to construct informative responses to 33, as she did with Shadowsax, because there simply isn't enough there to respond to, nor any willingness to respond.

Having said that, the presumtion should always be against banning, so if people feel that the case isn't strong enough yet or needs to be fleshed out, I think we should do that.
 
 
Char Aina
12:34 / 18.08.06
on 33;
why does everyone keep talking about mental illness?
i dont remember it being such an issue for other airlock-hopefulls, and i wonder why this poster should be any different.


on banning hir;
i dont have any reason why 33 shouldnt be banned.
if i did i would have posted it already, as i have been thinking about it. if he learns from the experience, great. he certainly isnt learning from the experience of being on the board.
i guess it is possible 33 may learn from these experiences down the line.
i think if the events of the last month or so do help hir later on, the punctuation of banishment will only be of use.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:37 / 18.08.06
I think we just need a set of links, explaining why the behaviour exhibited is unacceptable, which will build to form an account of why 33 should not be on Barbelith. He may well have left under his own steam at this point anyway, which in some ways would be ideal.

I still don't really see the difference - the unifying feature, I think, is that both SS and 33 responded rudely to any response that fell outside a very limited set. Both made offensive generalisations and proved unable to cope with having them challenged. One could compare alas' atempts to provide SS with information and assistance in employing it with 33's response to music recommendations in a thread asking for music recommendations: for "all statistics are unreliable because of feminism" read "no music produced now is as good as Nine Inch Nails". My point being, essentially, that if we have established that what ShadowSax did is now by precedent a banning offence, all we have to do is agree that what 33 is doing is what ShadowSax did. If we think that what 33 is doing is a totally different thing, we need to decide what it is, and whether or not he should be banned for it.
 
 
Char Aina
12:50 / 18.08.06
on 33;
why does everyone keep talking about mental illness?
i dont remember it being such an issue for other airlock-hopefulls, and i wonder why this poster should be any different.


on banning hir;
i dont have any reason why 33 shouldnt be banned.
if i did i would have posted it already, as i have been thinking about it. if ze learns from the experience, great. ze certainly isnt learning from the experience of being on the board.
i guess it is possible 33 may learn from these experiences down the line.
i think if the events of the last month or so do help hir later on, the punctuation of banishment may be of use.
 
 
Char Aina
13:02 / 18.08.06
My point being, essentially, that if we have established that what ShadowSax did is now by precedent a banning offence, all we have to do is agree that what 33 is doing is what ShadowSax did. If we think that what 33 is doing is a totally different thing, we need to decide what it is, and whether or not he should be banned for it.

seems like sense to me.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:13 / 18.08.06
i dont remember it being such an issue for other airlock-hopefulls, and i wonder why this poster should be any different.

Arguably it should have been an issue though. Surely if there are reasonable grounds to suspect mental illness, then a different approach might be warranted.
 
 
Char Aina
13:22 / 18.08.06
the idea that you can express any opinion, you just have to do so in the right way. I may not like it, you may not like it, but it's still pretty popular...

could you give us a handful of links to that attitude on display?
 
 
Ticker
13:24 / 18.08.06
..I bumped up the mod temple thread about the current Temple event so to tweeze it off of here.
 
 
Tom Coates
14:23 / 18.08.06
Hey everyone. So, basically I'm - typically - in the middle of a work crunch and don't have the time today to spend more than twenty minutes or so thinking about this. I know that's sub-optimal but I have a to-do list as long as my arm and I'm flying to the US first thing in the morning, so we'll just have to make do.

We have been - as a community - traditionally reserved about banning people, but that does seem to be changing and I'd ask people to consider why that might be before we get going, and whether it's fair any more to represent ourselves in that way. I'd argue that it's always in our best interests to be reserved about these things, but I have to be honest, I have no read much of 33's ouevre so I don't know how objectionable and badly behaved he's been yet. Still, at the beginning of each of these things, I feel I should urge caution.

Having said that, the Shadowsax situation was long, drawn-out and I think ended predictably. At the time I said that it was my belief that such a process was almost a formality - that by putting someone in that kind of trial-like position there was almost no possible outcome other than that they feel cornered and act up than before. It almost felt like a mechanism to build board consensus that he should rather than a method for determining one way or another whether his behaviour was acceptable. And it was difficult and slow and long and painful and unpleasant. So it's worth asking whether or not that process was the correct one, I think.

We might have to move to something more rapid - perhaps something simple like saying to individuals that if they want to propose a ban then they have to do so by standing up, and writing a case for it, that the person on the other side has an opportunity to respond to that case, a parallel thread be created for discussion and then after 72 hours we vote on the original terms of the proposition. If that doesn't pass, someone else is able to propose a similar move a month later if they really feel like it. We need something more agile than the Shadowsax process.

Right now, we need to make a decision more quickly than normal. I'm going to be away for ten days and so if this kicks off one way or another I'm not going to be able to sort out the situation very rapidly. Could I ask people to start a new thread, read some of the threads in question and then post whether or not they think 33 should be banned. If the moderators can agree between themselves who is going to keep track of the votes, that would be awesome. Once we've got over fifty votes or hit Sunday evening, then we'll add up the numbers, someone can send me the tally and we'll act accordingly.

Sounds reasonable in the circumstances?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:32 / 18.08.06
Eminently reasonable.

I'm not too comfortable about this "quicker to ban" thing myself, but in this case (as with Shadowsax) I think it's probably the best option. Not sure if it's a change in us as a community or the fact that we have recently had a bunch of totally bannable people.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
15:29 / 18.08.06
I realise I'm neither a Mod nor a Mr. Coates, but may I make a suggestion for the process of deciding whether to ban someone?
Firstly, we, as in everybody on this board is welcome to post in this thread (and others, such as 'Moderating the Temple' etc.) a 'heads-up' to say 'Poster X has said Y, which I find unacceptable.' If, after discussion, the general consensus is that the board needs to question whether to ban or not ban a poster we create a thread along these lines:

1) The offending member must be aware that the question of them being banned is being decided, in order to prevent people being banned while they're on holiday etc. and have no chance to respond.
2) The board member who begins the thread should provide as many links as possible to instances where Member X has made comments which other board members have found offensive.
3) Two board members, preferably long standing members or forum Mods, should post the case for banning Member X, showing how Member X's behaviour is contrary to the board's Posting Etiquette.
4) Two board members, one of whom must be the offending member (though they can abstain), the other should be somebody who doesn't want to see them banned for whatever reason.
5) Once the two sides have made their cases voting is open- either for or against, you can abstain by not posting. Members are encouraged to keep the discussion to a minimum, since it will have already taken place in this thread and others, and be 100% sure they won't change their minds. Voting should ideally take place over the weekend, beginning Friday and ending Monday, so that members are less likely to be prevented from voting due to work/school commitments.
6) The votes are counted and a member is banned or allowed to stay based on the votes.

Does this sound like something the board could do?
 
  

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