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Star Wars mythology surgery

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14:43 / 06.10.04

cheers sun, i found the site a bit earlier. qui gon and obi wan are using form 2 through the first half of phantom menace i guess. i wondered how/why some of the jedi on geonosis were so crap. the bit where the one gets blasted by jango fett after trying to get a pop at dooku? what a loser.

what's grievous' style? how bad is he going to kill jackson? oh, i really can't wait to find out.

16:08 / 06.10.04

I don't think those 7-9 scirpts are real, because, AFAIK, in the original nine episode outline, the Emperor didn't appear until episode 9, and things were condensed so that the series would end with Jedi. But, maybe that fact was just fanwank.

16:10 / 06.10.04

On one of the DVD featurettes, Lucas does say that the reason the fights are much more involved in the prequels is because it was the golden age of the Jedi and there was much better training. I feel like those fights are more about showing off, whereas the two Luke vs. Vader ones are about more just rage. Particularly at the end of Jedi, it's Luke wanting to kill Vader, not trying to be fancy about it.

08:04 / 07.10.04

Well, the Old Republic Jedi are trained from infancy, whereas Luke and his Jedi Academy are basically teenage and adult Force prodigies trying to recreate a lot of arts lost in the Imperial suppression of the Jedi.
My theory on the flamboyant Form 4 is that although the lightsabre's blade has no mass, there is a slight gyroscopic action that makes wielding it a challenge. All the twirling is the Form 4 master working with that action, rather than fighting it. Form 5 simply overcomes the tendency to spin with brute force.
I think the arcade game "Star Wars Trilogy" comes the closest to simulating Form 3 combat- you block and block, using prescience, until you sense a momentary opening along a particular angle.

12:56 / 07.10.04

Where are y'all getting this info on the saber styles? I'm really curious; the videogames Jedi Academy/Outcast used saber styles (fast, medium, heavy, with 2 extras that the bosses use) and I've been wondering how to code the "Vader-style" in there.

14:07 / 07.10.04

>> "Your feelings for them are strong, especially... siiiisterr!"
"I DON'T FUCKING FANCY HER, ALRIGHT!?"
"What? OW! Oh shit, my hand..."

LOL!!

I also liked the "Sith trash-talk" idea.

08:07 / 08.10.04

This here is a good primer.

12:07 / 08.10.04

It seems to me that the timelines for the two plot threads don't match up. We never hear exactly how long Han, Leia, and Chewie are running from the Empire in the Falcon, but it doesn't seem to be too long; there's nothing in the movie to indicate that it's a matter of months or even weeks (we never even see any sleeping quarters on the Falcon, so unless they're just sleeping in the hallway, it can't be that long). But that means that Luke's Jedi training went awfully fast.

Ahh just to add some more things into the mix- the falcon just travels from Hoth to bespin (via the astroid belt...)
Luke travels from Hoth to Dagobah and then to bespin - and gets his training in the middle - I also always had the impression that x-wings don't have lightspeed either as they're short range fighters? so we must be travelling at roughly the same speed as the crippled falcon- but via another planet- where as I assume the falcon is always travelling in the right direction for bespin... so even less time for lukes training???

13:10 / 08.10.04

I also always had the impression that x-wings don't have lightspeed either as they're short range fighters?

no, that's the Imperial TIE Fighters. you see a bunch of X-Wings and other Rebel fighters jumping to lightspeed in ROTJ when the fleet leaves for Endor.

so we must be travelling at roughly the same speed as the crippled falcon

the Falcon is apparently using its backup hyperdrive, which is much slower than it's normal hyperdrive or the hyperdrive on Luke's X-Wing.

that's clearly an EU retcon/fix, but a necessary one, because it would take them centuries (at least) to get from Hoth to Bespin at sublight speeds.

- but via another planet- where as I assume the falcon is always travelling in the right direction for bespin... so even less time for lukes training???

because they're limping around with a crap backup hyperdrive, it takes them a while to get there even though they're taking the most direct route of anyone who heads to Bespin. it's long enough for Boba Fett to figure out where they're going, go get Vader's fleet, and have them show up at Bespin a day or two early and set up shop. i would guess it takes Han and Leia about a week or two to get to Bespin. then, after the Falcon arrives, they're there for a few days having lunch with Lando and Vader, getting tortured, frozen in carbonite, etc.

it's kind of a stretch, but we could probably round the whole time from the Battle of Hoth to the time Luke arrives on Cloud City up to about three weeks. once Luke leaves Dagobah, he can get there in less than a day with his fully-functional hyperdrive, so he's on Dagobah for most of those three weeks, which is still fast, but he's a gifted student, he's already had a few initial lessons from Kenobi plus three years to practice on his own, and he gets his ass whipped pretty thoroughly when he shows up, so it's not like he suddenly becomes some kind of Jedi Master overnight.

(that doesn't happen until the gap between Episodes V and VI, where he ends one movie as this barely-trained punk getting tossed around like a rag doll, and walks in at the beginning of the next movie like he's the second coming of Mace Windu. never worked for me, even as a kid).

14:40 / 08.10.04

no, that's the Imperial TIE Fighters. you see a bunch of X-Wings and other Rebel fighters jumping to lightspeed in ROTJ when the fleet leaves for Endor.

You know, that's also bugged me. Why is it that the Rebellion's fighters are demonstrably better in every way to the Empire's? X-wings have hyperdrive; TIEs don't. X-wings can take a hit and keep fighting; TIEs explode on impact. X-wings have, what, 5 weapons; TIEs have 2 (I think). Where is the Rebellion getting these superior fighters? Is there some CIA-style organization in a neighboring galaxy slipping them equipment in order to destabilize the Empire?

15:01 / 08.10.04

(that doesn't happen until the gap between Episodes V and VI, where he ends one movie as this barely-trained punk getting tossed around like a rag doll, and walks in at the beginning of the next movie like he's the second coming of Mace Windu. never worked for me, even as a kid).
That was the saving grace of Jedi... the big payoff.
Luke
is
bad
ass.

And he even wears black.
He's like, soooo cool.

Foust is SO authentic

16:01 / 08.10.04

The answer I've always heard for the inferior Imperial fighter craft is the lack of Imperial concern for their pilots. They probably have millions of them; they can afford to create cheap fighters that overwhelm en masse.

The Empire clearly has superior warships; it's just the fighers they skimp on.

16:29 / 08.10.04

(that doesn't happen until the gap between Episodes V and VI, where he ends one movie as this barely-trained punk getting tossed around like a rag doll, and walks in at the beginning of the next movie like he's the second coming of Mace Windu. never worked for me, even as a kid).

I think a big piece of it is him getting in touch with his dark side. After finding out about Vader being his father, he starts dressing like him, and using the same choke techniques that Vader did. He's got a lot more confidence, and hence, can just walk into Jabba's place and own the place. There's a big enough gap that it made sense to me.

ONLY NICE THINGS

16:52 / 08.10.04

The Empire clearly has superior warships; it's just the fighers they skimp on.

Well, also TIE fighters have a demonstrably different role to X-Wings or Y-Wings, at least - they are multi-purpose fighter-bombers, able to fly in and out of atmospheres, travel independently of capital ships and so on. TIE fighters appear to function essentially in interdiction - they're meant to swarm around the capital ships and stop the enemy getting close enough to attack them/keep them occupied while the capital ships bring their guns to bear. Since a TIE fighter without a capital ship is basically screwed, it is both good budgeting and good motivation to build them without hyperdrives...

Presumably other ships fulfil other roles - for example the longer-range attack missions we see rebels using X-wings for, but which we don't actually see the Empire trying - their one assault on an emplaced enemy is on Hoth, a ground target, for which obviously they need the Master Chief.

17:09 / 08.10.04

>> I think a big piece of it is him getting in touch with his dark side. After finding out about Vader being his father, he starts dressing like him, and using the same choke techniques that Vader did. He's got a lot more confidence, and hence, can just walk into Jabba's place and own the place. There's a big enough gap that it made sense to me.

Yeah, I was watching Jedi and it struck me that he force-chokes the Gammorean guards when they try to apprehend him!Bad-ass!!!

19:44 / 08.10.04

Well, also TIE fighters have a demonstrably different role to X-Wings or Y-Wings, at least - they are multi-purpose fighter-bombers, able to fly in and out of atmospheres, travel independently of capital ships and so on. TIE fighters appear to function essentially in interdiction - they're meant to swarm around the capital ships and stop the enemy getting close enough to attack them/keep them occupied while the capital ships bring their guns to bear. Since a TIE fighter without a capital ship is basically screwed, it is both good budgeting and good motivation to build them without hyperdrives...

all this is true. also, the Empire rules the galaxy and has an active conscription program going, whereas the Rebellion is a tiny volunteer organization. it's better for them to have durable, versatile ships which do a better job of keeping pilots alive, because they just don't have the manpower pool to draw from to replace them.

it's also worth noting that hyperdrive-capable ships are ideal for small guerilla actions. a squadron of Y-Wings can drop in from hyperspace, bomb the crap out of everything in a sparsely-defended Imperial system and bounce back out more easily than the Rebels could afford to commit a capital ship to that kind of action.

the Rebels get really good at using torpedo-equipped fighter squads to take out capital ships over time, and the Imperials are forced to develop better fighters (notably the TIE Interceptors) and anti-fighter frigates and such to counter that advantage.

05:50 / 09.10.04

Difference in design philosophy. The Rebellion values life, and respects the potential of the individual to make a difference. The Empire is an insect hive, with Darwinian promotion policies. TIES aren't even pressurised, let alone equipped with hyperdrive, shields, ejection seats, or even the ability to land. They just try to "Zerg" opponents with endless ranks of semi-skilled brainwashed goons in high-visibilty faceless insectoid armour made from cheap plastic that can't stop a stone arrow, let alone a blaster bolt, and helmets that probably leave them as walleyed as the Simpsons, and incapable of hitting the broad side of a barn, if they were IN the barn.
Also the reason for the lack of safety rails ANYWHERE, and the "slave pit" construction of Star Destroyer bridges. If you can survive and rise in this kind of environment, you're a Darth Vader or a Grand Moff Tarkin, and the Emperor can use you...
And most of the competent engineers defected to the Rebellion early, and took an arse load of Old Republic blueprints and prototypes with them.
Notice Vader's fighter was the TIE Advanced? A bit of a clunker, but had shields and hyperdrive. As it turned out, good for him, when Tarkin forgot to put a lousy grill or an s-bend on that vent.

03:57 / 10.10.04

Luke may be a badass in Return, but at heart he's still the whiny farmboy we know and love. "LE-ia! Wait for MEEEEE!"

13:49 / 11.10.04

Oh, I found out what the Sarlac does- it plugs itself into your circulatory and nervous system, and not only keeps you alive for a looooong time, slowly feeding off you with it's very slow metabolism, but it shares in your intelligence and D.N.A.. Apparently someone got Dengar drunk once, and he let slip that after he rescued Boba Fett from the Pit, Fett had genetic material from various victims of the Sarlac added to his genome. Ironically a lot of these would have been his own targets...
I wonder if you could pick up midi-chlorians that way?

16:46 / 13.10.04

There's apparently a site called "www.beforethedarktimes.com" which focuses on Star Wars pre-Special Edition, pre-Prequels and pre-DVDs. Funny name for the website

They worship SW there in its original, pure, unadulterated glory...

nedrichards is confused

05:53 / 14.10.04

re: Force Ghosts, I know we're ignoring the EU here for terms of continuity but it's probably worth noting that there's a Sith Force Ghost in KoTOR and that joy of joys you can turn it back to the light to rest in pece, at which point it disappears. Also worth noting to non KoTOR initiates that it's the purest expression of deep SW you're likely to find these days and as such a wellspring of joy so potent as to be intoxicating in small ammounts. The light side ending even has a crap medal ceremony.

re: Master Chief, a number of tla's inidicating laughter. Everybody needs the Master Chief.

10:45 / 14.10.04

Has anyone come across this site? supershadow.com...

He's a crank. Been spouting bullshit for years.

Foust is SO authentic

19:39 / 14.10.04

Knights of the Old Republic is the best Star Wars story since Timothy Zhan's Empire trilogy.

I was floored by the main plot twist.

01:51 / 15.10.04

I thought all the ships in ROTJ were piggy backing on the bigger ships, enabling them to get to light speed.

miss wonderstarr

07:21 / 15.10.04

Supershadow's predictions for Episode II were hilarious. "Attack of the Clowns will have a big surprise twist...that's all Uncle George allowed me to tell all you ladies right now."

13:25 / 15.10.04

Benny, ya gotta give it up. X Wings have hyperdrives.

They don't have actual existence, however.

15:44 / 15.10.04

Knights of the Old Republic is the best Star Wars story since Timothy Zhan's Empire trilogy.

KOTOR is significantly better than anything Zahn's ever done, but then i think Zahn's ridiculously overrated. i would argue that it may very well be the single best piece of EU material ever.

I thought all the ships in ROTJ were piggy backing on the bigger ships, enabling them to get to light speed.

nope. there isn't really any way to piggyback in the SW galaxy. either your ship has a hyperdrive or it has to get carried inside one that does.

besides, how would Luke get from Hoth to Dagobah to Bespin in ESB or from Tatooine to Dagobah to the Rebel fleet in ROTJ without a hyperdrive?

18:33 / 15.10.04

I'm not holding onto it, honest! But I remember a discussion between Lando and someone else about how the bigger ships were boosting the speed of the smaller crafts when they make the jump into the final battle - did I imagine this as well?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

14:38 / 16.10.04

I've always assumed the X-Wings have hyperdrives. As far as I remember, all we're ever shown is the fleet jumping to light speed- no mention of how, so I figured the Xs did it under their own steam, as it were.

KOTOR is, in fact (well, in my opinion anyway), the best Star Wars since ROTJ. Or at least joint first with Clone Wars.

Foust is SO authentic

00:19 / 17.10.04

It seems that a lot of us agree that KOTR stands up as a decent work of fiction; exactly which forum would one start a thread about it in?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

10:34 / 17.10.04

That's tricky... I'm tempted to say this one, cos it's a spin-off from SW, in the same way that a thread about X-Men action figures would go in comics...

Wanna start one and see if it gets moved? That's probably the best way to find out.

10:48 / 17.10.04

It's worth noting that X-Wings have hyperdrives in X-Wing the computer game.

Tie-Fighters don't.

14:51 / 21.10.04

There are still some true believers out there.

Dieselsweeties just started offering this shirt:

23:44 / 21.10.04

It's worth noting that X-Wings have hyperdrives in X-Wing the computer game.

Tie-Fighters don't.

I give you... the TIE Defender:

08:38 / 22.10.04

Cheeky.

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