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Star Wars mythology surgery

 
  

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Lord Morgue
05:08 / 29.08.04
Inspired by the Marvel and D.C. threads in "Comic Books", here is a place to ask those embarrassing fanboy questions.
Like... how many times did Boba Fett get out of the Salacc pit? How long was he in there for? I remember an old comic, Marvel presumably, where Boba got out with amnesia, teamed up with Han briefly, then fell back in the Pit (D'OH!) when he crashed the Jawa landcrawler (long story). And then in "Tales of the Bounty Hunters", he detonated a grenade in the Sarlacc's guts and crawled out, nearly got wasted by Dengar, but got invited to his wedding as best man instead. Awwww.
So-- digested slowly over 10,000 years? What does that mean in practical terms, to Those Who Are About To Be Digested? Does the fucker render you immortal or put you in stasis while it nibbles on you, or was that particular legend made up by Jawas smoking Bantha shit?
 
 
Benny the Ball
08:24 / 29.08.04
I remember the first story. Not too clearly as it was early eighties. The impression I got was that the Sarlac rendered you inactive and slowed down your body functions, putting you in a kind of stasis but a very aware one, so that you could be digested painfully (otherwise what's the point, I mean, Yoda's 900 odd years, so what, do Jawa's age really slowly, live really long, or is 3PO just bigging it up again?). But I think this was more my mind filling in gaps. Also I was just so pissed off that Boba Fett had gone from great and dangerous character to spastic with gadgets - the noise he makes when he flies into the pitt was embarressing.

Is C3PO's translation skills a modification, or did the little bowl headed brat build him with that skill, if so, how the feck did Anikin know X,000,000 forms of communication?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:05 / 29.08.04
Of what species is Yoda? I am truly grateful for this thread, cos I've checked every SW reference I can find, both online and off, and am still none the wiser. It's become a more pressing question since Phantom Menace, because we now know there're more than one of the little guys with the funny ears. Before that, I kind of fobbed myself off (missus) with "he's a unique creature". But no more. NO MORE!!!
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
12:13 / 29.08.04
There are others of Yoda's species in Ep 1? Where? The Senate scene?
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
12:16 / 29.08.04
And it seems to me, Benny, that Anakin could have purchased translation software.

But he's s slave! No money!

Well, if he can gather the resources to build a robot, then he can find some freakin' software.
 
 
sleazenation
13:35 / 29.08.04
I'm still standing by my interpretation that the midiclorians are actually paracites that feed on the force - which is why they gather in large numbers around people with whom the force is strong - an interpretation which doesn't invalidate Ben Kenobi's explanation that its an energy field that surrounds us and binds the galaxy together from ep 4
 
 
Lord Morgue
13:40 / 29.08.04
I get the impression that C3P0-style protocol droids are a standard design, and Anny had Goldenrod in kit form, or something. He didn't invent the droid type, or anything- there was that silver one with the female voice on the Trade Fed ship at the start of Ep. 1.. So presumably the type comes with a standard translator chip, or data files.
Anyone know what Vader's armour is supposed to be made of? It takes a glancing blow from Luke's sabre, and he blocks Han's blaster fire with his hand...
And what kind of ship is that badass looking thing that Kyle Katarn flies around in?
Oh, and here's one. Where exactly did the Death Star plans come from? One version would have it that Kyle Katarn stole them, but I think Shadows of the Empire said they were leaked by an Imperial traitor... So who's the Plan Man, Kyle Katarn or Dash Rendar? And who has the silliest name or coolest ship?
OH! AND! Anyone remember what the different sabre colours mean? One source says different castes of Jedi used different colours, but another source said something about the colours representing personal philosophy- blue for "The Force in Balance", and green for "The Living Force" or something. And someone else said it's for Master/Student. And so, what does Mace Windu's purple sabre mean, apart from "I'm a fuckin' badass"? And don't just tell me, like my man Tabby did, "Samuel L. Jackson's lightsabre is purple and twice as long as anyone else's."
 
 
Lord Morgue
14:00 / 29.08.04
Faust- there was a female, um, Yoda-person with the other Jedi in one of their interminable fucking meetings. Meetings, senates, mandates, blockades and ambassadors and delegations and envoys, GAH! Worse than Vampire the Masquerade. No wonder Vader chokeslammed Captain Antilles when he said they were on a "diplomatic mission".
 
 
miss wonderstarr
16:32 / 29.08.04
Most of these questions are Expanded Universe, ie. not-really-canon. Within SW canon, I don't believe Boba Fett did escape from the Sarlacc Pit. Yeah, you can find me any number of page references from some also-ran EU novel about Boba Fett's post-ROTJ adventures to back up your theories, but I say to you this: the Expanded Universe told you Boba Fett used to be Journeyman Protector Jaster Mareel. A backstory that was blown out of the water as soon as AOTC was released.

Nothing in the Expanded Universe is canon until Lucas incorporates it in a film or arguably in a secondary spin-off like the Clone Wars animation, which is apparently feeding directly into the Revenge of the Sith continuity.

So to my mind, there is little point discussing it as it's so wildly "unofficial" -- or if you do like discussing it, it should be considered on a different level of debate as it has nothing to do with the authoritative Star Wars mythos.

As far as I remember, the female of Yoda's species, Yaddle, is simply referred to as "a female of Yoda's species", without that species being identified.

Vader's armor: here is the ESB shooting script.

Faster than the wink of an eye, Han draws his blaster and
pops off a couple of shots directly at Vader. The Dark Lord
quickly raises his hand, deflecting the bolts into one of the
side walls, where they explode harmlessly. Just as quickly,
Han's weapon zips into Vader's hand. The evil presence calmly
places the gun on the table in front of him.


I suggest the deflection was a use of the Force, rather than a quality of the armor. If it can be cut by a lightsaber I'd say Vader's gauntlet would normally be damaged by a blaster shot. My feeling is that Vader changed the trajectory of the energy beam just as, say, Yoda changed the effect of gravity on the X-Wing: using the Force to manipulate the laws of physics.
 
 
fluid_state
19:01 / 29.08.04
Ah, the plans to the Death Star. Everyone's stolen them at some time or another. In the aforementioned Marvel comics series (solid gold, right up until issue 97 with that lame "new Dark Lord"), there's a great arc where Luke and Leia try to track down the Rebel spy who stole the plans and promptly went missing (found tortured to death by Vader, and left as a message for Luke). Shadows of the Empire? the hell with that crap. "Dash Rendar"?? Could you pour some more weak sauce on that, please?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:27 / 29.08.04
I believe it was Kyle Katarn and Mara Jade who stole the plans in the semi-pro SW fanfilm The Dark Redemption. Really Kyle and Dash are virtually the same person, ie. Han Solo substitute.

Within canon (dialog in ROTJ) Bothan spies stole the plans to the second Death Star so it doesn't seem so unlikely that they could have stolen the plans to the first, a few years earlier.
 
 
diz
22:01 / 29.08.04
Is C3PO's translation skills a modification, or did the little bowl headed brat build him with that skill, if so, how the feck did Anikin know X,000,000 forms of communication?

he found a standard 3PO brain in the junk pile (yeah, cause, you know, people throw that kind of shit out) and fixed it and built the droid body according to the standard blueprints or something.

Anyone know what Vader's armour is supposed to be made of? It takes a glancing blow from Luke's sabre, and he blocks Han's blaster fire with his hand...

those are two separate things. the saber deflection is a property of the armor, which is a cortosis alloy. cortosis is one of the few materials which can block a saber blade.

Vader uses the Force to dissipate Han's blaster fire. it's the same sort of thing that Yoda uses to absorb Dooku's Force lightning in AOTC.

Most of these questions are Expanded Universe, ie. not-really-canon....So to my mind, there is little point discussing it as it's so wildly "unofficial" -- or if you do like discussing it, it should be considered on a different level of debate as it has nothing to do with the authoritative Star Wars mythos.

that's not really accurate. according to LFL, there are two levels of canon. the movies, the novelizations of the movies, and the radio dramas are movie-level canon. everything else is EU canon, which is not "wildly unofficial" by any stretch of the imagination. yes, there are a few huge clusterfucks like Boba Fett's origin, but there are a lot of other things from the EU incorporated into the movies, like, oh, say Coruscant, which originated in the EU. Lucas' plans for the galactic throneworld were very different, with a different name and a different design, but Lucas went with the EU version instead, and it's now a major part of both trilogies. other aspects of the EU, like ship designs, characters, etc, have also been integrated into the movies.

so, if GL decides to write all over a portion of the EU like he did with the Jaster Mareel thing, he's free to do so, and the EU has to adapt. he's the ten-ton gorilla of the SW mythos. but the EU is very much an authoritative part of the SW mythos, even if it's a second tier part, and there's cross-fertilization. the two are growing closer all the time, anyway. the Clone Wars EU is really tightly integrated with Episodes II and III, because they're making a more coordinated effort to have them play off each other.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
08:26 / 30.08.04
everything else is EU canon, which is not "wildly unofficial" by any stretch of the imagination. yes, there are a few huge clusterfucks like Boba Fett's origin, but there are a lot of other things from the EU incorporated into the movies, like, oh, say Coruscant, which originated in the EU. Lucas' plans for the galactic throneworld were very different, with a different name and a different design, but Lucas went with the EU version instead


The name Coruscant was introduced by Timothy Zahn in Heir to the Empire, although I have seen it claimed that Lucas gave Zahn a list of names to choose from. The idea of an Imperial Homeworld originates in a 1974 draft of "The Star Wars" as Alderaan: Capital of the New Galactic Empire. In the draft of ROTJ it has been renamed Had Abbadon.

To be fair to your argument, the Had Abbadon scenes were a magma arena where the Emperor, Luke and Vader duel, so nothing much like the TPM Coruscant -- but the "Capital of the New Galactic Empire" in the 1974 draft must have been dominated by cityscape, even if it wasn't the city-planet of Zahn's books and TPM onwards. The Empire, based on everything we know of its design aesthetic, politics and ideologies from ANH, would not have had a volcanic planet without cities as its central base.

But yes, the name Coruscant and at least some of its basic concept came from an EU text. However, it wasn't canon until it was "elevated" up to the primary text of TPM.



and it's now a major part of both trilogies. other aspects of the EU, like ship designs, characters, etc, have also been integrated into the movies.


The Outrider's appearance in the background of ANH:SE, where you have to freeze the DVD and peer at the screen to see it, does not count to me as a significant incorporation of an EU text. Neither is the appearance of, supposedly, a swoop in the ANH:SE Mos Eisley.

The best example for your argument is the appropriation of the EU Twi'lek Jedi Aayla Secura in AOTC. Lucas apparently saw the artwork for whatever Dark Horse comic she appeared in, and explicitly gave the order for her to be a character in Episode II.


But again, this just shows that sometimes LFL takes elements of the EU and transforms them into canon. It doesn't mean the EU tells us anything about the top level of canon -- they are irrelevant to canon until they're spotted and promoted to the only meaningful level, the films themselves.

-----

My source: Using the Force: Creativity, Community and Star Wars fans, Will Brooker, Continuum 2002. Not a flawless book but it's where I get all my SW fandom info from. Which does mean that my knowledge stops at a certain point, ie. 2002, but that's partly because I am experimenting with no spoilers for ROTS.
-----



the EU is very much an authoritative part of the SW mythos, even if it's a second tier part, and there's cross-fertilization.

I don't agree with this interpretation: it is not authoritative, it's a bank of information and ideas that Lucas can draw on if he so chooses -- and mostly doesn't choose to. There are, I believe, two really significant examples of the EU feeding into the films, and I listed them above. The others are just Easter Egg jokes.

That's not cross-fertilisation, because the process is almost entirely one-way: the films feeding into the EU.

the two are growing closer all the time, anyway. the Clone Wars EU is really tightly integrated with Episodes II and III, because they're making a more coordinated effort to have them play off each other.

OK, I don't know about this so I will accept that the dynamic is changing now.
 
 
Lord Morgue
08:29 / 30.08.04
I see the study of Star Wars mythology like archeology- we have different sources, different legends, even different versions of the "truth" from the prime source, the movies (who shot first, Han or Greedo?), and we assume the "real" events are somewhere inbetween, like trying to study history from Shakespeare, the Bible, Homer, we can assume there's been some fudging. Thus, multiple origins for Boba, as much a figure of legend as Medusa, King Arthur, Robin Hood, with as many versions. Now that G.L. is fiddling with the originals, everything's taken on a certain fluidity, yes?
 
 
miss wonderstarr
09:38 / 30.08.04
Yes except that -- in contrast to King Arthur, Robin Hood, Jesus et al. -- the author is still alive and governing the texts of these cultural icons.

I don't have a great deal of trust in or respect for George Lucas and his talents right now... I'm grateful for what he gave me in the 70s but I almost think I'd do a better job looking after those myths myself. However, in terms of symbolic and legal ownership, GL is still the man deciding what's "officially true". Yes, you can claim "in my SW universe, Han shot first" but in doing so, you're going against the author's version of it. I think that's a valid strategy but it's not officially legitimated. Just like post-Crisis and pre-Hypertime you could say "my Batman did have a history of going on space adventures"... fine, but you're carving out something against what DC says is the case.
 
 
Lord Morgue
13:46 / 30.08.04
Hahaha- but isn't this how all myths start? Arthur, Lancelot, and Merlin were all from separate legends, until some ancient fanfic writer did a Briton/Gaulish/Welsh crossover and created the story we know so well. In a thousand years, Xena will probably be a legitimate part of the Hercules cycle and Beta-Ray Bill could be part of Norse mythology. The copyrights on Star Wars will expire 50, 70 years after Lucas rejoins the Force, and then the fanfic and E.U. will be as legit as the original, Disney's attempts at rewriting international copyright law notwithstanding...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:53 / 30.08.04
Fine, if you meant in your earlier post "this will be the situation in 100 years." I'm entirely down with the idea that SW characters will become jointly-owned folk heroes for anyone to tell stories about.

But that's not precisely the case NOW, however much we might wish it was.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:59 / 30.08.04
These days Lucas reminds me a lot of Stalin...

In "canonical" terms... if, as Lucas would now maintain, Greedo shot first, does that make Star Wars (the original film as is/was) non-canonical? Cos that just makes my head hurt...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:24 / 30.08.04
I'd have to say yes, it is "outside continuity". Or in Lucas' terms, it probably "doesn't officially exist".
 
 
wicker woman
05:47 / 31.08.04
OH! AND! Anyone remember what the different sabre colours mean? One source says different castes of Jedi used different colours, but another source said something about the colours representing personal philosophy- blue for "The Force in Balance", and green for "The Living Force" or something. And someone else said it's for Master/Student. And so, what does Mace Windu's purple sabre mean, apart from "I'm a fuckin' badass"? And don't just tell me, like my man Tabby did, "Samuel L. Jackson's lightsabre is purple and twice as long as anyone else's."

That's... actually not too far from the truth. Sam Jackson specifically requested that his lightsaber be purple; it really doesn't have anything to do with rank. As far as the other colors go, those might be closer to your suggestions.
 
 
Lord Morgue
07:42 / 31.08.04
I actually have a theory there, see, there are about 7-10 different lightsabre fighting styles (depending on who you listen to), and Mace Windu is the only master of style VII, a technique demanding a particularly razor's-edge mindset that drove its other users insane or to the dark side.
Now- the construction of a lightsabre involves the use of natural or man-made crystals impossible to identify as suitable or to arrange and tune to the fine tolerances required for anyone but the trained force-adept. Now, could not the personality or mindset of the creator come out in the manifestation of the blade? Thus most Sith or Dark Jedi have red sabres, (so does Leia, but fanfic usually plays her as potentially the most powerful dark Jedi) most birth-trained Jedi have the composure to build blue or green, the new Jedi order students of Luke Skywalker are already in their teens, with highly disparate personalities, thus the high diversification of colouring in their weapons, and Mace Windu, walking the razor's-edge of evil or madness, has purple, halfway between blue and red.
 
 
Lord Morgue
08:04 / 31.08.04
The young Boba COULD have taken the name Jaster Mareel while seeking training as a Journeyman Protector, since his Dad wasn't around to show him how to kick ass...
 
 
FinderWolf
12:54 / 31.08.04
They have never given a name for Yoda's species. He hung out on Dagobah in his later years, but the story implied that he was hiding out there and he's not from there. So who knows what his species is?

Let's make up names.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:31 / 31.08.04
Thus most Sith or Dark Jedi have red sabres, (so does Leia)

I really think with cases like this we have to distinguish between canon and not-canon or less-canon. Leia has never had a lightsaber in the films, red or otherwise, and dropping this kind of observation in as if it's gospel is just confusing. You are basing an argument on something that to me isn't really "true" or "proven" -- I personally see no point in trying to elaborate saber-color theories from the fact that some EU author thought it would be kewl to have Leia holding a saber, perhaps with no thought behind the colour-choice.
 
 
Lord Morgue
14:00 / 31.08.04
Listen, mac- I refuse to believe that the E.U. is out of bounds to discussion, one, because that leaves us with a very small world to play in, and two, that would mean that there never was a droid called Bollux.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
16:13 / 31.08.04
Point taken but

-- a small world is easier when clearing up inconsistencies

-- maybe at least people could specify "EU level of canon" when offering evidence from those texts.
 
 
Benny the Ball
16:25 / 31.08.04
Is Jabba the Hutt really old? Has he always looked like a slug? Or was the intention for him to be human (a la the irish bearskin clad cut from ANH) and for him to transform into Hutt as we know him from ROTJ because of disease?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:43 / 01.09.04
there never was a droid called Bollux

Or, indeed, a Wookiee called Weebacca. (Star Wars: Galactic Battlegrounds).

Yeah, I get that according to Lucas the original New Hope no longer exists, and I get that it's up to him, really, but... but... it just seems WRONG that the Star Wars we all grew up with... the one that started the whole thing off, the one that most adults are talking about when they say "Star Wars", the one that, let's face it, made all that fucking money, ISN'T OFFICIAL. This is not to have a go at your argument, kovacs, merely to express my disgust at that beardy fucker Lucas.
 
 
Lord Morgue
12:03 / 01.09.04
I did some snooping, and Yoda has never revealed the name of his race, or the location of his homeworld to ANYBODY.
There are others like him throughout the galaxy, but to spot one is exceedingly rare.
New question- has it ever been revealed exactly why Han Solo did such a thorough job of fucking Dengar up in a supposedly friendly swoop race, burning him with his exhaust then forcing him into an outcropping of crystal shards that pierced his brain, turning into the homicidal vegetable we know and love? Of all Solo's enemies, Dengar struck me as the one with a legitimate grievance.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:39 / 01.09.04
I don't think Jabba was meant to have transformed or gotten a disease - simply a matter of they cut the actor from ANH and years later, got a better idea, to make him a monster-type slug dude. Re-envisioned the character, which worked well since they'd not really shown him in the first place (except to those few who saw the cut scenes from ANH).
 
 
fluid_state
15:05 / 01.09.04
Beardy fucker! (uhhh, Lucas, that is. Not any posters who may have or want beards) I'm not entirely sure I'd want to live in a Star Wars universe without Bollox. Or Han being a proper scoundrel and shooting first (I mean come on! he may have been a nice guy at heart, but he wasn't stupid! Well, not as stupid as Greedo, at least). there seem to be levels of canon, though, as the mention of Weebacca points out. When the SuperDVD boxed set comes out, with all the stormtrooper voices changed to that of Jango Fett (or so rumour has it), half the video game E.U. will be wiped out on the spot; not to mention Troopers (canon, as far as I care), and some of the best Empire-based stories found in the comics (Princess Leia and the stormtrooper from Alderaan, the troopers that find Vader's diary, etc.). There's only one meta-canon, the rest is mix and match mythology. It'll be interesting to see what sticks. Any suggestions as to what SHOULD stick would be very entertaining. (Bollux. Stenaxes and Zeltrons, and those three smuggler pals of Han's from Marvel comics. Oh, and Captain Dribble. Kyle Katarn, while a one note character, did make for some very entertaining video games, so him too.)
 
 
Professor Silly
18:11 / 01.09.04
According to the SWKOTOR video game the crystals that determine lightsabre colors tend to relate the focus of the Jedi.

Blue = Jedi Guardian, one who focuses on lightsabre fighting and action (like Obi-Wan going on an investigation in Ep. II). The fact that Obi-Wan will fuck up Anakin in battle should come as no surprise--he defeated Darth Maul, didn't he?

Green = Jedi Consulor, one who focuses on Jedi abilities and force powers. Vader, in the lightsabre battle of Ep. V, fights Luke with his lightsabre until he slips up and gets hit, at which point he falls back to using the force to hurl heavy objects at Luke. Yoda also used green, did he not?

Yellow = Jedi Sentinel, one who tries to balance out the fighting ability of the Guardians with the force abilites of the Consulors.

Purple was created at Samual L Jackson's request and worked into the mythos.

Orange was created for another game and seems to have no symbolic purpose.

Red is mostly used by Sith (although they too could use purple or any other color they prefer.)


I think it's especially interesting how Luke's lightsabre changes color. He's given Anakin's old green sabre in Ep. IV, but by the beginning of Ep. V he has a blue sabre. I like to interpret this as Luke's desire to honor Obi-Wan, who he watched "die" at the hands of Vader. But after Luke finishes his training with Yoda in Ep. VI, he returns to using a green sabre, perhaps in honor of Yoda...or perhaps showing his renewed focus on using the force to bring balance and peace....

By the way, I distinctly remember reading somewhere the Lucas retains veto power on every single Star Wars product, and he tries to minimize any inconsistencies between the movies, comics, books, video games, cartoons, musicals, etc. ad nausium. Of course this is impossible, and we will always be able to find little continuity glitches.
 
 
Professor Silly
18:16 / 01.09.04
oops...

Another possible reason for Luke's switch back to green in Return of the Jedi: If he switched out the green crystal for a blue one in honor of Obi-Wan, he'd still have that green crystal tucked away somewhere. After he loses the sabre (along with his hand) he'd naturally use the one color crystal he had left when rebuilding his blade.
 
 
Benny the Ball
18:49 / 01.09.04
I'm really confused by the colour thing - i haven't watch the originals in years - I always remember Luke having Anikin's Blue sabre given to him (but this may only be because I have seen several pictures of him holding the un-digitised sabre in unit stills of late, and my memory has gone cloudy) and always put it down to not crystals, but having more of his own energy in the sabre he builds in Jedi. Purple was indeed added because Sam L Jackson wanted Mace to be a bad Shaft of a jedi that stood out. Shame that Lucas made his bad-assssss moment stink - there was a murmer of 'oh it can get good here' when his blade appeared at the end of ep II, him just sneaking in and being all bad - but then it fell apart and ended with a little computer sprite Yoda fighting the Man With the Golden Gun or something (hey that would have been cool, if Doku's blade was Golden!).
 
 
Triplets
22:00 / 01.09.04
Samuel L. Jedi's moment is coming in SW3 according to the interviews he's done.

As for Sabres it's kind of an emotional thing. Sith are red because red is associated with anger [or vice versa] and thus of the Dark Side. Blue and Green are all about contemplation and life-processes, respectively.
 
  

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