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Moderating the Temple

 
  

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Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:59 / 18.08.06
I'm okay with that. How about something like "One poster suggests that all religion is founded on fiction and furthermore promotes hatred and suffering. Debate ensues"? That way we give a realistic appraisal of the threads content while still placing the responsibilty for the tone firmly with the topic starter.
 
 
Ticker
15:09 / 18.08.06
That would make me feel a lot better, yes please.
 
 
illmatic
15:25 / 18.08.06
I'll do it now.
 
 
Ticker
17:46 / 18.08.06
thanks I appreciate the changes.
 
 
Quantum
22:39 / 18.08.06
Am I right in thinking that if someone (Teh Wakner) hadn't vetoed a lock we would have shut the thread a few posts in? If so, aces, AFAIC any thread can be turned around with enough effort but our standard practice should be to laugh such nonsense off the forum. I'm looking forward to Wanker's responses and the teasing out of various interesting issues surrounding patriarchal monotheism by all involved, but the discussion is in spite of the thread not because of it.
Well done to everyone for making a decent discussion out of adolescent wank. I predict khorosho will throw another Xtian-bashing post into the thread in a few days then get bored and go elsewhere. Thank God.
 
 
Seth
03:02 / 19.08.06
But we're all bloody clever little whatsisnames, aren't we? Wouldn't it be cool if everything that we'd previously considered to be potentially harmful to Barbelith were viewed as a jumping off point to do something beautiful? Isn't that the best possible response to life's troubles? To start with the assumption that shit can be turned into gold? What's the point of beginning from any other position?

Does it matter who starts a thread and how? The worse it is or may appear to be, doesn't that just increase the challenge to do something good with it?
 
 
Seth
03:03 / 19.08.06
I love Teh Wakner, by the way. It's like Shatner, only more Wanky.
 
 
Char Aina
03:41 / 19.08.06
What's the point of beginning from any other position?

well, it would seem wise to save yourself a whole bunch of time and hard work polishing turd that is clearly never going to get golden. like the serenity prayer says; it all comes down to having wisdom enough to tell the difference between your turds.

i appreciate what happened with that thread, but i dont think you can map your happy on to every surface as succesfully.

i may be wrong.
 
 
Seth
11:31 / 19.08.06
How has this taken much more time and effort than a regular thread? I really like the way people have filled the thread with lots of ideas more interesting, complex and far less reactionary than what was originally intended by the topic starter.

My reservations only really centre around the posting of material that some people would take as offensive and allowing that to remain here, but personally I'd prefer erring on the side of letting it remain and having people thoroughly take that kind of thinking to the cleaners.

Surely taking time and effort over posting is a good thing?
 
 
Char Aina
11:49 / 19.08.06
How has this taken much more time and effort than a regular thread?

didnt say it was, bill.
i intended to communicate the position that sometimes, although clearly not in this instance, the effort involved in our polishing of a turd of non-auric potential is wasted.


I really like the way people have filled the thread with lots of ideas more interesting, complex and far less reactionary than what was originally intended by the topic starter.


i liked that too.

personally I'd prefer erring on the side of letting it remain and having people thoroughly take that kind of thinking to the cleaners.

as would i.

Surely taking time and effort over posting is a good thing?

wait... this is one of those questions i dont have to answer, isnt it? what do they call them again?

dude, i think you perhaps misunderstand my position.
you asked What[...]the point of beginning from any other position was, and i answered you.

i think your's is a great position to start from much of the time, but i can see instances where it might be wiser to go beyond your initial assumption, look at the reality and make a decision based on the ratio of effort needed to possible good that will come.

if i see my train arriving as i approach the station, i asume i can catch it and run. if i see my train at the station, i know i will miss it, and i turn and walk briskly for the bus. if i run for the train i will almost certainly miss the bus, so it's good to make that decision correctly.

always assuming the positive gets in the way of seeing the occasional very real negative, dude.
that you seek to assume you can alchemise some faecal gold in every situation is laudable, but you must surely understand the argument against it as a universal rule?
 
 
Ticker
05:45 / 20.08.06
I do believe we need to be watchful for really awful religious intolerance being floated through the Temple just because it triggers constructive dialogue we'd like to have.

As Mordant's pointed out, Christian bashing is a very real icky form of bigotry often found in ghastly amounts online. While I'm up for critical discussions around the mechanics of specific Christian institutions or people I feel a responsibility to not make a space for blatant asshatery and nastiness.

The change in the summary really shifted the thread for me and I'm psyched other people agreed. It's great to have more options than just thread locking.

Yet sometimes turds just need a-flushin'.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:43 / 21.08.06
Khorosho responds. Hmmm. I'm seeing a sl-i-i-ight improvement--he's demonstrating some engagment, or at least processed engagement-flavoured product. But he is still bashing religion and hurling quotes at us, presumably because we ain't read nunna that Hethin Dawkins fella, we gots our Bibles.
 
 
Ticker
12:44 / 21.08.06
deep breathing exercises anyone?

Mordant, you get a big ol' gold star for calm counter arguements.
 
 
*
13:58 / 21.08.06
For Khorosho...

How to argue, Chapter 1:

Argue respectfully. Remember that there are people behind the opinions you are arguing with. You will be more successful at attacking opinions, rather than people. Doing the latter doesn't make you look clever, it makes you look like a troll.

Barbelith has no trolls. We skin and eat them. It's something like a religion in these parts.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
07:54 / 31.08.06
Aren't I slow? I've only just worked out that khorosho is the poster formerly known as CroMagnet, of infamous memory. See here, here, and most especially here.

If it was up to me I'd be eyeing the banhammer about now.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:01 / 31.08.06
Could you post those links in the 'What exactly gets you banned...?' thread, MC? I think it's time for this doggy to pay his final visit to the vet.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
08:04 / 31.08.06
Will do.
 
 
Quantum
16:56 / 13.09.06
Here's a question. The Invisibles : a call to arms thread. Would a swift delete (D:l33t) have been unfair? I think it would have been, but what do we do about borderline threads, let them get 'dogpiled' by posters heaping scorn on them? Try to polish them?
Further, the deletion request- I didn't disagree it because I felt too close to it and a bit sorry for chaoflux, but I was tempted to delete the whole thread because I thought it was rubbish. Only the entanglement with other threads prevented me proposing it.

What to do with dubious threads? At the moment, letting them live or die on their merit seems to work if they get flagged FAO the rest of the board, need we do any more than that? The risk is that they wear out good posters and discourage them from coming back or starting good threads, weighed against getting D:l33t happy and discouraging people from starting threads in case they're unwelcome etc.
As it stands both fresh and jaded people might see that thread as a reason not to post (I might get dogpiled!/Why should I bother posting if that's the standard of debate?).
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:20 / 13.09.06
This is uncharacteristically harsh of me, but would it necessarily be a bad thing if people who were gonna post complete bollocks were deterred by fear of scorn? (I know I'm a mere lurker when it comes to Temple, but I think it applies elsewhere also- I'm thinking Switchboard, although we haven't had too much shit there recently).

And I reckon someone who was gonna post something of merit would be able to tell that a post was mocked because it was bollocks, and not just because "we" were feeling grumpy that day. And therefore it shouldn't put them off.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
17:20 / 13.09.06
Oh, I just reread your post, Quantum. It was more about "wearing out" than "putting off". Hmm. Must think more.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:23 / 13.09.06
To be honest, Quants, I think that's a bit of a non-issue. Threads which are borderline--which start out a bit weak, and maybe need a bit of work--are treated in a completely different way to threads like 'Call to Arms.' Sure, they'll get challenged, but in such a way as to invite further engagment from the poster. It's only when something's a writeoff from the get-go that it really draws fire. As for people being put off: we don't get that many pillocks, and watching drivel like the above get roundly mocked is actually kind of a relief. If I were cruising for a new occult forum I'd find it reassuring rather than otherwise.
 
 
Quantum
17:40 / 13.09.06
Okey dokey, I am reassured. I just had a mental image of Illmatic popping by, seeing that title and abstract and going away again with a tiny tear in his eye.
 
 
Ticker
18:30 / 13.09.06
yeah and when he read Princess' perfectly beautiful rant that tear would have turned into a small ninja of ass kicking moisture.

..I am so making t-shirts out of Princess' one liner.
 
 
Ticker
15:46 / 19.09.06
Haus on why the Vatican topic is in Head Shop and not Temple

I agree that this discussion is about cultural studies and so it makes sense in the Head Shop. However, however, the viewpoint of the Temple being a sloppy fnord hole is a problem.

Can we discuss having fast action deletes on posts that are obvious bullshit/hate speech? By fast action I mean the existing two mod system but applied when a thread summary calls for a zero policy tolerance of thread rot/abuse/fnording?

So if a poster starts a thread they set in the summary how agressively moderated the thread will be. You want a fnord happy thread? Fine say so. You want a zero tolerance for saying 'Teh Xians Suck' thread can you state it clearly and have the mods feel comfortable that they are inforcing a standard set by the community for the community?
 
 
Olulabelle
16:25 / 19.09.06
I'd also like to say that originally the brief for the Temple was to include religion which now presumably comes under 'Faith'.

We put really interesting threads which could sit well in the Temple and have board wide appeal in a forum other than the Temple just because we're worried about the quality of posting in the Temple, and I think we are missing an opportunity to shape the Temple in the way we would like; less of the fnording, more intelligent discussion.

That thread could happily have sat in the Temple as long as the posters who are posting to it now posted in it there too and most of the people in that thread, with the exception of one or two, regularly post in the Temple.
 
 
grant
17:58 / 19.09.06
Can we discuss having fast action deletes on posts that are obvious bullshit/hate speech? By fast action I mean the existing two mod system but applied when a thread summary calls for a zero policy tolerance of thread rot/abuse/fnording?


I am, quite predictably, very willing to give this a shot.
 
 
Quantum
18:31 / 19.09.06
Yup. A good label might be handy to be very clear what type of thread it is.
One worry though is that there might arise a two-tier system where we get more 'The Flash=Cheetara=Hermes' threads alongside the threads we actually want.
 
 
Quantum
18:35 / 19.09.06
I mean like 'Highbrow' or 'No-Nonsense' in the same way we'd say 'Spoilers' or 'Pics', a standard marker. It could be quite contentious though, teh facist traditionalists are dissing my l33t digimon skillz! leads to "Digimon are really real thread *Highbrow*"
 
 
Ticker
18:53 / 19.09.06
I'm with ya Quantum but 'highbrow' seems to start off on kinda of negative exclusionary foot.

Well I'm a-thinking topic: 101 denotes an entry level all are welcome vibe.
Would topic: Ph.D with a ref for what it stands for in the wiki work?
 
 
Olulabelle
07:35 / 20.09.06
That's really exclusive, even though it's not meant to be.

Perhaps we could label them Temple HS (standing for Headshop) or something which defines its content without being so exclusive?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:02 / 20.09.06
I think that part of the problem is that blatantly entry level people often won't admit, even to themselves, that they are entry level. Or even that there might be levels other than entry.
 
 
Ticker
13:11 / 20.09.06
perhaps a simple no-fnording tag? We could easily view that to include any flavor of obvious stupidity including hate rants. It's in the wiki already so it would just be giving the moderators the go ahead to enforce it in a thread.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:55 / 20.09.06
I'd also like to say that originally the brief for the Temple was to include religion which now presumably comes under 'Faith'.

We put really interesting threads which could sit well in the Temple and have board wide appeal in a forum other than the Temple just because we're worried about the quality of posting in the Temple, and I think we are missing an opportunity to shape the Temple in the way we would like; less of the fnording, more intelligent discussion.


I've had a couple of ideas rolling around in my head for Christianity-oriented threads, which I am thinking of more as Temple material because they're more along the lines of experiential and faith-related stuff, and light on theory. I admit, I've been a little put off starting one in the Temple after some of the recent stuff. (NOTE TO ANYONE WHO HAS PROBLEMS WITH THE OBVIOUS- by "recent stuff" I don't mean I'm scared to post there because of the howwible mods. I mean the Christian-bashing and the stupid shit).

I would add that I liked the way a lot of people managed to get some very constructive use out of the God Is Imaginary thread... I just fear that if I put something heartfelt about my complex relationship to Christianity, some arse will feel it necessary to tell me I'm delusional. I know that's not guaranteed to happen... but at the moment it's enough of a worry to make me think "well, it can wait".
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:28 / 20.09.06
(of course, I could be delusional... but there are ways of telling people that. And I'm not sure which ways we'd get in this case...)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:26 / 20.09.06
Stoatie, you should just go for it. You might get an arse or two popping in to tell you off for dabbling with teh stoopid Xtianity, but your overall response is more likely to be positive than not.
 
  

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