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Moderating the Temple

  
  

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STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:44 / 14.07.06
Bearing in mind that the Alchemy spam had been posted in four separate fora, I don't think immediate snark was an unthinkable response.
 
 
grant
13:10 / 14.07.06
mmmmmm -- I tended to shout at the computer first, rather than on the computer, because I don't like letting spam make big messes. Small messes, OK, like scar tissue over a wound. Too much, not so good. Excise it! Draw the alchemical salt from the wound!
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:19 / 14.07.06
Well if anyone is guilty of making the Temple appear overly confrontational, then I guess I am. I think this does serve a purpose though, and in most instances I'm just trying to draw people out and get them to support their statements with either first-hand experience or academic research - rather than just letting them babble unchallenged about teh maajhikz when they clearly don't know what they are talking about.

I could be less rude to people, but I'm not getting paid to be anyone's Sunday school teacher either. I think that, within reason, dealing with people a bit harshly if I think they are posting nonsense is alright. I try to be instantly polite and respectful the moment someone starts putting a bit of effort into dealing with the criticisms I've raised. My ideal outcome from these little clashes is really for the other person to come out with something that makes me reconsider my own position on something. That, for me, is the essence of valuable debate, and it does happen every so often. But if you can't support and defend your position on something when challenged, then chances are you haven't thought it through so well.

Hopefully the only people who get scared off from the temple are those who mistakenly turn up thinking its a playpen where they can explore whatever crazy ideas bubble into their heads at any given moment. But do we really want that sort of content? The recent "are videogames making us all hyper-evolved beings, because videogames can bring on epileptic fits and all epileptics are natural shamans" thread is an example of this. I don't want the Temple to be swamped in shit like that, or to encourage the perception that it is a place where such content is welcomed and will remain unquestioned. I think that to do that, you have to have a bit of severity. It can't be all carrot and no stick.

Thoughts?
 
 
Quantum
15:32 / 14.07.06
you have to have a bit of severity

True on so many levels. I don't think you're 'guilty' of over agression, and in many cases if you hadn't posted something challenging then I would have thirty seconds later. I'd like to think the same is true of other moderators, and have sometimes pondered the subtle benefits of having someone who isn't a mod be the first to point out when someone's just spewing nonsense.
 
 
electric monk
16:47 / 14.07.06
I'm going to end up bringing a lot of baggage into this post, and I'll attempt to keep from speaking from my anus as much as possible. Having thus prepared y'all...

In a sense, I could be said to fit into the "catflap" category. Used to post in Temple almost exclusively. Now mostly hang in the Convo and stick my head in occasionally in the other, more serious fora including Temple. I've talked my share of crap in my little-over-3-years on the board and have, in the past oooh maybe year or so, been re-evaluating myself and my contributions to Barbelith as a whole. This introspection didn't originate inside of me. I didn't one day ask myself, unprompted, "What kind of poster are you and what do you want to be?" That came, in large part, from encountering people like you, GL. Haus, Mordant Carnival, Flyboy, Quantam, trouser, Illmatic, id entity, Ganesh, and a whole host of others who, either directly or indirectly, challenged me to challenge myself. I don't think anyone here has ever said to me, "You're shit", but I think I have been asked in one way or another to raise my game at certain points. Which I accept, and try to follow through on.

During the time I've been here, I've also been all over the map in my feelings about the posting styles of certain members. "Haus is meeeeen." "Gypsy Lantern probably hates me." "What a temper that Mordant C. has!" "Awww. Sypha's not so bad." These were the early years, when I didn't have a firm grasp on what this place was about. I also couldn't recognize that IDEAS were attacked first and foremost and that, if a poster got shirty and called "meeny meeny" on someone, it was more due to having a stranglehold on whatever idea or belief they were espousing and being unable to hold it lightly and turn it a little to consider another facet. I see some of the same feelings I had in some of the newer members that come through and I cringe at where it leads a few of them. Thing is, I moved past all the ill will I felt, tried to understand the position of those I felt were out of line and...whaddaya know..not a one of 'em is anywhere near as bad as I thought! There is a great tradition on this board for challenging weak ideas, asking for clarification when it's needed, and everyone pushing everyone else to THINK. This is valuable to me, as I feel I've become...I won't say a better person...but someone who is more able to hold a belief lightly enough to allow for challenge while holding tightly enough that it doesn't fall out of my hand.

What I'm trying to say is that I feel confrontation is good and necessary for the preservation of the culture of this board. If this is a problem for some, that really is too bad as I think they're going to miss out on an opportunity they won't get in too many other places online. I stumbled bass-ackwards thru the flap into this place. I mucked around and spent some time being, at best, a net neutral (my own assessment). I think I'm moving into a more net-positive role lately, and I attribute that to the intellectual rigour that surrounds me every time I log in. I used to feel stupid and let that hold me back. I'm still pretty thick, don't get me wrong, but I'd rather post something thick-headed and get called on it. It's one of the best ways to learn.

'K. Shutting up now.
 
 
grant
17:33 / 14.07.06
I'd like to make very clear that my above comments were strictly in regard to that omnipresent salt/alchemy spam, which if challenged everywhere it appeared would lead to some major readability problems. Simply zapping it seemed much better.
 
 
Ticker
18:12 / 14.07.06
It is incredibly rare to have a group of people you can discuss personal experience and magical theory with in a critically productive manner. As mentioned by others most venues are full of bombast and lip service.

When Gypsy Lantern made me think harder.

This exchange kicked me in the ass and lead to a series of events that otherwise would not have occurred. It wasn't confrontational or rude from my POV but it did cause me to draw up short. If I was posting somewhere else that might not have happened and so I would not have reexamined my assumptions or my ways of working nor dragging my ass to England in two weeks.

But if you can't support and defend your position on something when challenged, then chances are you haven't thought it through so well.

This is pretty much dead on.


I respect the views and experiences of others by default but I value the opinions of only those who have demonstrated insight. The Temple folk have (for the most part) been extremely diligent in their research and I hold these exchanges (whether or not I participate directly) in the highest regard.

The salt spam, not so much.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
18:26 / 14.07.06
I completely missed the salt spam cos I didnt bother looking at any of the alchemy threads until ten minutes ago, I'm guessing a lot of it got deleted. But this line from Evski G has had me in fits of laughter for all ten of those minutes:

Would some moderator please give ol' Salty the smackdown he or she so richly deserves?

XK: I didn't realise that I'd actually inadvertantly cajoled you into planning a trip to the UK. I definitely owe you a drink!
 
 
Ticker
19:12 / 14.07.06
Gypsy, I suspect if there is any booze debt to be had it is on my account for the favor of being called to task in the first place.

::GRIN::
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:20 / 14.07.06
cos I didnt bother looking at any of the alchemy threads until ten minutes ago

Wasn't in any of the extant Alchemy threads, it was its own thread. Replicated across Head Shop, Lab, Temple and Conversation.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
22:47 / 14.07.06
I just really liked the "Ol' Salty" nickname for the perpetrator of it.
 
 
Quantum
21:54 / 15.07.06
Okay, a perfect example- Morpheus is back (hello Morph) and I have to balance politeness with the desire to keep the quality of threads high. I don't want to pre judge anybody, that would be unfair, but past behaviour can sometimes be a guide for future behaviour... at what point do I start suggesting deletions or merging of posts? How much in-thread nudging should we indulge in (which starts the rot quick) in order to be sure we're being fair?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
22:11 / 15.07.06
Have we not been more than fair enough to him before? He's not learned a thing since then - I'd say we've long since reached the point where he no longer deserves gentle treatment and instead has his off-topic, trolling rubbish deleted out of hand.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
10:09 / 16.07.06
I would suggest refusing hir various requests for changes to hirs original 'Countdown' thread (currently languishing in The Conversation's depths) precisely so that we have evidence of a chain of behaviour. Hirs various requests (which tend to come in when ze returns to the board each time) tend to be trying to delete or hide fuckwittery on hir part.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:33 / 16.07.06
Which would at least seem more purposeful if he didn't immediately start replicating the same behaviours in his most recent threads...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:29 / 16.07.06
If only we had an old style chatroom kick function. Ah yes, those were the days.
 
 
Quantum
12:41 / 04.08.06
The board has become a very uninviting place.

Alex Thoth in the Gek thread. See, I don't think it has and it seems busier than it's been in ages at the moment, I think the rigour is attractive to people who want to talk about magic seriously, and invites the sort of posters who make the Temple great instead of a playpen. ("playpen" courtesy of Gypsy Lantern describing many other magic boards)
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:15 / 04.08.06
I sort of wish Alex Thoth had responded to the invitation implied in Gypsy's post to come to the Policy and outline hir grievances. I like A.T. and am interested in what ze has to say, but comments about people getting their throats ripped out by jackals don't do a great deal to move the discussion forwards.

I'm inclined to agree with Quantum here. One of the things that makes the Temple so special is that we've evolved certain standards. If a belief or practice expressed in the Temple seems weak or poorly-thought-out, it gets challenged. How is that a bad thing? Does it really help a magician if ze never has the flaws in hir practice picked up and examined? I was all over the Gek thread when it first kicked off, but whilst I think that it still has merit it had got rather stale and repetative. It's not really so terrible to re-examine the magical wishing-well model behind it, and maybe re-jig things so that people get more actively involved in the magical realisation of their desires.

It's been said before, but let's say it one more time: There are plenty of places on the internet where bad practice and weak thinking will go completely unchallenged; where the umpteenth basic sigil working ("this time I'm gonna draw it in the WOMEN'S toilets! Woohoo!") draws high-fives and backslapping rather than critique. Per-len-tee. We don't need another one.

It is perfectly possible to contribute to the Temple if you're a magical n00b, or if you work with sigils'n'servitors, or if you're not involved in magic at all and are merely an interested onlooker. You just have to demonstrate a willingness to engage with your art in a meaningful way, to back up your theories, and most importanlty to do the bloody work rather than pontificating about it.

If the prospect of getting in a row with someone on an internet message-board is so distressing as to be an obstacle to that, how on Earth do you think you're going to cope with the Morrigan?
 
 
Ticker
13:47 / 04.08.06
I'm right there with you Mordant. If you can't deal with other people challenging your views and asking for clarity when you're being sloppy, how the hell are you going to react when the Big Bads show up during your work?

Also in a related note, it was pointed out to me that being challenged by your peers helps harden your resolve about things you really do believe in. I suspect this annealing process is crucial to help maintaining a sense of self when the really weird shit shows up and tries messing with your reality.

The difference is having a community that is invested in your progress rather than shooting you down out of ego conflict. I haven't really seen any ego driven bullshit in the Temple from the regular posters.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:31 / 04.08.06
I put my hand up to being unnecessarily rude in the Gek thread yesterday, but I just felt that some form of confrontational challenge had to be made to how it was operating and has been operating for years. I really think its one of the weakest recurring threads on barbelith, and whenever I log-on and see that it's at the top of the pile it always winds me up. Nothing interesting is really going on there, it's just a wishing well, and whenever it's at the top it's a sure sign that all conversation has drawn to a halt. It's actually become a bit of a shorthand for me to gauge activity: "Oh, the Gek thread is at the top again... Barbelith must be particularly slow/uninspiring today." Also, I thought it was quite telling that most of the people who keep refreshing it don't really post anywhere else in the Temple. Phat Mikey? Neville Barker? The Player? Kylark? Who are these people and why do they only seem to post prolifically to this one daft thread.

Yes, I suppose there was no call to address everyone in the thread as a "bunch of fucking muppets", but in my defense, I could have been a lot meaner. I didn't just show up and vent my initial emotional response to it. Instead I tried to change things positively by coming up with a solution where the thread continued to function much as it does - to keep the people who like that sort of thing happy - but also actually did something a bit more interesting in that for people to engage with it they would now need to both start contributing more constructively to barbelith and also promise to broaden their own magical practices beyond the parameters of the wishing well formula that the thread is pretty much endemic of, and which is the main cause of my irritation with it. I thought I wouldn't just diss it, but try to change what I didn't like about it. Put a bit of fresh life into it.

I get pissed off when I see lazy, boring, unimaginative magic that doesn't engage the magician in any real sense. I am unapologetically vocal about that. It seems to get results, and in many cases it does seem to make people question their assumptions and under-examined beliefs through sheer exasperation at my refusal to compromise on forwarded perspectives I feel are flawed or problematic.

I like to get people a bit riled by abruptly challenging their beliefs so that their ego feels bruised – this seems to get people worked up so much that they ultimately have to engage with my points and think everything through in order to try and "win". Which is better than not thinking about it at all. I do this exclusively in the spirit of getting people to examine the processes of magic more closely and ultimately become better magicians.

I'm much more interested in how someone responds to my challenge and elaborates on the emotional experiences behind the throwaway soundbites, than I am in "winning" myself. I don't really give a fuck about that. Contrary to what a certain posted who seems to have just resurfaced exclusively to diss me seems to believe, I do not post aggressively because of ego. I post aggressively because I am passionate about magic and can't stand lazy thinking. I'm happy to have my own assumptions challenged, as it corrects me if I'm labouring under a flawed or faulty working theory myself. I fucking love it when that happens. Somebody did it in a conversation I was having last night actually, made me stop in my tracks and realise where I'd been going a bit wrong in an exploratory line of thinking – and I'm so grateful when it happens, as that - for me - is the only point in talking about magic full-stop.

I'm not sure that the Temple forum actually does need to create a more "nurturing and welcoming environment for people who are new to magic" as Alex Thoth seems to think it should. There are loads of places on the internet for that, as pointed out endlessly. I think the onus on the Temple forum is actually to provide a challenging and intellectually stimulating environment in which a high level of debate around magic can thrive. I don't want to come on here and have to explain the basics of sigils to people and encourage their little baby steps. There are loads of places on the internet for that. Go there. Fuck off. Come back when you have a bit of experience under your belt and can talk about magic at the required level for meaningful interaction. If you are capable of bringing something interesting and genuine to the table, then you will fit in really well here and be treat with total respect as soon as you demonstrate that a couple of times. New posters such as XK, Doc Checkmate, and EmberLeo are just three recent examples of that.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:38 / 04.08.06
In the other thread, Nobody's Girl - who I remember clashing with over something or other a couple of years back - tells us:

Alex- I know I stopped posting to Temple because I didn't like the attitude of some posters.

This is why I've never been into group magic (other than Edinburgh's Beltane Festival), too many frickin' inflated egos and not enough humility. It's sad though, one of these days I'd like to feel I could be involved in group magic.

Please can you elaborate on that with reference to the specific incidents you have in mind and how they made you feel.
 
 
illmatic
16:50 / 04.08.06
BTW, did anyone disagree the title change I proposed for the Reincarnation thread? Doesn't seem to have gone through. I'll try again - if you disagree, send me a PM.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
16:55 / 04.08.06
Whatchoo on about? I see the new summary. Hit 'refresh.'
 
 
illmatic
16:56 / 04.08.06
Ooops, just realised - can't do two changes in one. Sorry.
 
 
FinderWolf
18:57 / 04.08.06
hey there - I posted in the Gek thread about the above, wanting to address the issue where the issue actually came up. I checked out the Policy and saw that Gypsy has posted a detailed view into his/her line of thinking and motivations, and that seems pretty much cool to me.

I post only sporadically in the Temple since my magickal practice is sporadic, and I'm ok with that. I can speculate that some posters may feel that if they don't keep up a rigorous, continual, very disciplined practice and write a lot about their practice in the Temple, they might get taken to task for not posting/contributing enough or not seeming like they're serious about it. And since sometimes the message is given "If you're going to only dabble, don't post here, do it elsewhere," some people stop posting in Temple mostly or altogether, which leaves only the more hardcore people, which seems to be the desired outcome. So basically it all seems to work out.
 
 
Ticker
19:38 / 04.08.06
I dunno if it is promoting only the hardcore...seems to me it is promoting the heartfelt rather than strictly the uber-experienced only.

Regarding the issue of new folk and their questions...

In the tech forums I frequent posters with questions are asked to have already met certain criteria before posting their questions to the group.

1. State as many of the useful details of your work/environment as posssible.

2. What steps have you undertaken to solve your problem already?

What this process does is foster a more productive dialogue in terms of information exchange. Ok so now I know what tools you are using and what you've tried and I can now make an attempt to give you useful information back.

In the Temple I suspect the same holds true. The community needs to know some details and where you're at before it can help you. If you haven't bothered to even try to figure it out for yourself any information given will not make sense because you don't understand the context. It's akin to trying to remotely navigate someone who hasn't bothered to look for landmarks or street signs.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:47 / 04.08.06
Woah. I don't see that as being the message that is given out at all. I doubt very much that anyone here wants to 'get rid' of people who have a looser association with magic and with the Temple forum.

For a start, everyone's practice waxes and wanes, goes through periods of intense engagement and relative hibernation. (In fact, I'd argue that periodic downtime--whether that's a day off, a week off or a full year off--should be a feature of everyone's magical practice.) For another thing, different people have different amounts of free time and energy; it's quite possible to combine regular practice with job, education, relationship ect., but some of the things that life can throw at us make that a bit harder. And of course some people just don't feel the need to go all-out, which is fine too; some Temple posters don't practice magic at all and still make valid and valuable contributions.

It's also true that not everyone with a 'hard core' practice want to spill hir guts about it all over a public forum.

It's not about being hardcore or how much you post. It's about being willing to engage, to contribute, to examine your ideas. That's what'll earn you respect.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
19:48 / 04.08.06
Finderwolf asks:

It's one thing if your goal is to inspire others to re-examine their practice and/or posting, but why be condescending about it and call people nasty, insulting names?

Because it's funny? Because I thought the thread and its passive contributors were asking for it?

I admit to being deliberately antagonistic in that thread, but I had been holding my tongue for 25 pages and 6 years of being mildly irritated by it... I thought it was time I cast a bit of well-needed ire in its direction to try and shake things up. Believe me, I could have been a whole lot more uncompromising in my assessment of the thread and its value than I actually was. Besides which, I thought the format of my post was quite entertaining, providing a critique of the thread in the form of a letter to Gek. Albeit in a fairly vicious way, but, y'know, learn to deal with constructive sarcasm or buy a fucking helmet.

If you think that the current expected level of debate excludes dabblers or people without a 24/7 practice, then start a thread called "Dabbler's Corner" or something and sort it out rather than just complaining about stuff that is entirely within your power to fix. Hell, I'll do it myself, and promise that I will be extra, extra patient within the safe space of that thread.

It also does bug me a bit that Gypsy thinks it's appropriate to order/make a deal/require new terms of use with a servitor that someone else created without asking the creator's permission, and then telling the creator of that servitor 'well, i've done it without you,' which seems questionable to me. But perhaps I misread Gypsy's comments on that issue.

It's a barbelith servitor and I don't think its creator has vetoe over any deals or modifications that are made to it once it is placed in the public domain, any more than he has vetoe over any of the other requests that have been made to Gek over the years. I didnt ask his permission because I thought it would have more impact to just sweep in and take it off in another direction by cutting a side deal, rather than actually engaging with the thread as if I had some degree of respect for what was taking place there.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
19:50 / 04.08.06
(My last post to FinderWolf. Bit slow off the mark there.)
 
 
FinderWolf
20:15 / 04.08.06
Thanks for your posts in response to mine (xk, Mordant C. and Gypsy) - I really appreciate them and as I read them I felt like "ahh, good, this is an enjoyable, helpful and productive discussion." (meaning that seriously without any snark)

It's good to see that I perhaps misread (in my speculations) the specifics of the message being sent to Temple posters about 'either be someone who does this hardcore 24/7 or don't post here'. In many ways I feel like a magickal practice is happening even when you're not engaged in a specific Project (your thoughts during the day affecting your reality, any affirmations you do, goals you reflect on while on the subway, visualizations, creative acts that have energetic repercussions, synchronicities that come up, etc.) so I even question my definition of myself as someone who doesn't do it 24/7.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
20:24 / 04.08.06
In many ways I feel like a magickal practice is happening even when you're not engaged in a specific Project

Abso-bloody-lutely! Could not agree more. If you're walling the magic off into one corner of your life, you're not living it. You should be bringing your magic into everything you do, from performing the LBRP to making dinner and giving the dog a bath.
 
 
Quantum
20:39 / 04.08.06
In many ways I feel like a magickal practice is happening even when you're not engaged in a specific Project

So true.

I don't think the temple's just for hardcore magicians or demands 24/7 commitment, but I do like the idea of a dabbler's corner- we've got the stupid questions thread but that might be better. I want to encourage people to post to the Temple, I want to get the lurkers active, I want to attract good posters and keep them engaged. I just don't want to lose the accountability that makes the place worthwhile, in the same way we demand rigour in the head shop. It's akin to the problem in the Lab balancing the sci-fi threads with the hard science.

What do you think would encourage occasional posters to contribute more vocally? I don't think we are jackals or hawks, but I'd like to advertise that we invite intelligent laymen and beginners with interesting views. The trick is to avoid a slew of Matrix Warrior and Love Spell threads.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
22:15 / 04.08.06
I want to encourage people to post to the Temple, I want to get the lurkers active, I want to attract good posters and keep them engaged.

Believe it or not - and despite my tendancy to be impatient and to wind people up when I'm irritated about something they have written - so do I. I don't think a person has to be vastly experienced in order to contribute meaningfully to the temple. But they do have to be prepared to make a meaningful contribution. I'd much rather read about someone diving into a practice for the first time and just describing how it makes them feel and what they think about it, than I would read pages of a more experienced magician showing off how much they know about a given subject. It's all about being genuine and creative and thoughtful, as far as I'm concerned. I only get pissed off when people don't appear to be engaging with the processes of magic with very much depth or thought or creativity, yet simultaenously think they have it all sussed out like little tin pot magi. That's a bubble that needs to be burst for further development to take place, and I don't mind doing it.
 
 
Nobody's girl
11:15 / 05.08.06
I only get pissed off when people don't appear to be engaging with the processes of magic with very much depth or thought or creativity, yet simultaenously think they have it all sussed out like little tin pot magi. That's a bubble that needs to be burst for further development to take place, and I don't mind doing it.

My problem is this, Gypsy, this is all in your opinion. However anyone chooses to approach magic is their own issue, if you don't like it you can either ignore it or perhaps try to nicely engage with them about why you think they're approaching things wrong. You bully people with your dogmatic views about how magic ought to be done and I find it very tiresome. It's as though you believe there is "One True Path to Magic" and you're the only person in the whole world who does it "properly" which is, in my opinion, utter nonsense and breathtakingly arrogant. That said, I suppose arrogance is hardly a surprising character trait for someone involved in magic.

It's no surprise that the bullying you display on the boards is allowed to flourish as I feel Barbelith has an endemic problem with bullying, I just think it's a shame that we're missing an opportunity to have a free discussion about magical practice because everyone is afraid to mention that the emperor has no clothes.

On another note, I've heard from a few of the 'Lithers that I've had the pleasure to meet in person who have also met you that you are a very lovely person IRL. I think it's a shame that doesn't translate online because I'm sure that with your passion for magic and your desire to help others in magic (however misguided your approach currently is) I would otherwise get along with you very well.
 
 
Quantum
11:33 / 05.08.06
It's as though you believe there is "One True Path to Magic" and you're the only person in the whole world who does it "properly"

It so, so, isn't that. To use the same metaphor, it's the people littering the path with crap and stopping after a few steps to turn around and mock those behind them that get grief. IMHO. Gypsy? Do you know the one true path? Have you been holding out on us?

Barbelith has an endemic problem with bullying

Really? Where? Let me guess, there's a core group of prolific posters who keep the common folk down with their evil sarcasm, right?
 
  

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