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Moderating the Temple

  
  

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Quantum
11:48 / 05.08.06
I just think it's a shame that we're missing an opportunity to have a free discussion about magical practice because everyone is afraid to mention that the emperor has no clothes.

Do you think a lot of people feel that way? I feel we're having pretty free discussions about magic all the time, and if I thought GL was talking crap I'd be the first to call him on it. 'That's crap!' I'd say.
It's one thing to attack a poster's views because you don't share them (haha, you believe in faeries that's silly!) and another to challenge the views because they're poorly thought out tosh. GL has a habit of telling people to go out and practice more, and be more engaged, and rely on experience over received wisdom. I don't think he knows the one true path but that sort of thing seems like good advice to me.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:55 / 05.08.06
It's as though you believe there is "One True Path to Magic"

NG, I hate to be confrontational because you're obviously feeling very embattled right now but... where in the name of sanity are you getting this stuff?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:59 / 05.08.06
Can you point out this naked Emperor? I wasn't aware that we had an Emperor, clad or unclad, so you'll have to indicate Hir to me. All I see is a mishmash of fully-clothed peers.
 
 
illmatic
12:02 / 05.08.06
I think Gypsy should change his name to Naked Emperor Lantern.
 
 
Nobody's girl
12:25 / 05.08.06
Well, perhaps you could entertain the possibility that the reason you guys don't feel harrassed is because you're never on the receiving end? Apparently I'm not alone in my opinions. These days my contributions to Barbelith feel similar to my voting in elections, I have a vague hope that it'll make a difference, but really I know the same old shit will continue to happen. That's really the end of it for me. Enjoy.
 
 
Doc Checkmate
12:48 / 05.08.06
Well, perhaps you could entertain the possibility that the reason you guys don't feel harrassed is because you're never on the receiving end?

I've had Gypsy come after me at least twice, once concerning my views on magically engaging with your environment, and once for giving the thumbs-up to a book written by Chic and Sandra "We Probably Engage in Very Unattractive Middle-Aged Orgies" Cicero. I never once felt like I was on the "receiving end" of anything except a discussion, and maybe a little welcome education. I love this place.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:51 / 05.08.06
"Recieving end?" I think pretty much everybody's been in a row with Gypsy at some point. He's rude and abrasive and challenges people. Granted, some of us had our falling-out before your time but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Depends how you deal with disagreement, doesn't it. Even if your interlocutor is abrasive you can still evaluate the substance of the argument and engage with those ideas. Maybe you'd end up jettisoning certain practices or approaches. Maybe you'd end up more sure of yourself and your ideas because you've had the chance to examine them thoroughly and can back them up with sound theory or good solid practice. Or you could look at it as a one-sided bullying attack and walk away.

Maybe we do have a problem in the Temple. Maybe dissenting voices are being scared off, and we're missing the chance to have some important debates because of that. Right now, though, you're not making a good case for that scenario. You're just throwing around boo-words and expecting everybody to fall in line: 'inflated egos,' 'Emperor's new clothes,' 'bullying.' Anyone who doesn't agree with you is automatically either a bully or is colluding with a bully. Do you have any conception how offensive that is? I'd far rather be called a muppet any day of the week.
 
 
Quantum
13:28 / 05.08.06
I'm a muppet bully, like a fraggle with a club. Grrr. Be afraid.
 
 
illmatic
13:39 / 05.08.06
Nobody's Girl, when have you been challenged by Gypsy or anyone ele, in The Temple? Might be wrong but, I can't recall a time when you have been.
 
 
illmatic
13:50 / 05.08.06
... and when you say apparently I'm not alone in my opinions what do you mean?
 
 
illmatic
13:56 / 05.08.06
Becuase if you've been getting PMs, saying "oh, they've been bullying me", I'm sorry that's something I have no sympathy for. Post here, or post in the relevant thread. Otherwise, shut up and fuck off.

I'm sorry, this may not have been happening, but it's something that tends to come out in these discussions that really irks me.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:00 / 05.08.06
Nobody's girl: Please provide the court with solid examples of where I have attempted to impose my alleged "one true way of magic" on other contributors to the Temple. Then we can try and deal with something solid here, rather than just name-calling and hair-pulling that doesnt get us anywhere.

From my perspective, I respect magicians who show a bit of depth and creativity in their approach to magic, and I challenge people who don't in the hope that they might. It's got bugger all to do with the specifics - which I think is evident from the fact that I engage quite happily both here and in real life with Tantriks, Voodoo folk, Northern trad people, Wiccans, Thelemites, you name it. All of whom have very different perspectives on magic, are coming from entirely different places in their thinking, and who I have no problem with whatsoever. I might not see eye-to-eye with them on all counts, but I respect them because they are doing good stuff and that stands out a mile.

What I attack - relentlessly and unapologetically - is what I perceive as sloppy thinking, assumptions and superficial, flawed understanding of the subject under discussion. But as soon as a person displays evidence that they are putting a bit of effort into their thinking and discussion, and not just throwing their toys out of the pram when challenged to put their money where their mouth is, I will afford them total respect from that point onwards. If you want me to, I can go through the threads and come up with several examples of where something like this has played out.

To be honest, I can't really recall what your specific greivance with me was originally about. All I remember is your unwillingness to actually engage with any of the issues I was calling you on with any degree of depth, and a quick degeneration of the discussion into accusations of bullying and tyranical behaviour on my part. You have since popped up every now and again to reiterate this and take a dig at me whenever you've seen a likely opening, so I would very much like it if we could sort this out here and now. I don't want you to feel excluded from the Temple, but I'm not sure what I can do to change your perpsective of me since you seem to have made your mind up about what kind of person I am and what my motives are.

As far as more established posters never having been on the receiving end goes - You should have seen my arguments with Mordant Carnival circa 1998...
 
 
Quantum
14:01 / 05.08.06
I don't know if you'll get a response- That's really the end of it for me. Enjoy.

Anyway, here's the Dabbler's Corner thread for anyone who feels, as Nobody's Girl does, that the Temple is overly critical and uninviting. I'm not sure I've got the tone or title right, does anyone have any suggestions on changing it for the better?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:26 / 05.08.06
Until she turns up again in six months and raises the same accusations at me again, without being prepared to elaborate on them with specifics or show any willingness to actually sort any of this out...

I really hope this can be sorted out though.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
14:46 / 05.08.06
My problem is this, Gypsy, this is all in your opinion.

Well, yes, it is. All I can do here is present my opinion as clearly and concisely as possible. It difficult to have a meaningful discussion if I'm not allowed to further my opinion for fear of treading on someones toes. If you don't agree with me, it is entirely your prerogative to shout me down with your opinion, and convince me why I am wrong or misguided or not seeing something. That's all I ever want anyone to do when I challenge them, it really is. Educate me. Show me why you right and I am wrong. As far the voting metaphor goes, I don't think it stands up. Your voice on barbelith has exactly the same weight as mine. You can change anything around here simply by asserting your voice in an intelligent manner. You could do that right now by backing up your greivance with evidence of specific incidents that you would not like to see repeated and why. People (including me) will listen to you, as long as you are presented a well reasoned supportable case. Please do so.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:01 / 05.08.06
Perhaps one of the examples of Barbelith's Ritual of the Bullying Ritual that Nobody's girl is thinking of would be in this thread where a member of the board said a lot of homophobic nonsense, was heavily criticised for it, and left the board - at the time Nobody's girl felt we should all have been a lot nicer. Is that where it all went wrong, Ng?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:19 / 05.08.06
Well, that and maybe this thread.
 
 
Ticker
18:22 / 05.08.06
I've said it before and I'll say it again I'm glad, no I'm grateful that Gypsy challenged the way I was looking at and expressing a magical relationship I was detailing.

Sure there was some ego burn in being called on it but shit what's that compared to years of productive work lost if it hadn't happened and I hadn't gone 'oh fuck better correct that oversight'?

The winter isn't a bully because it freezes your nipples off until you learn how to clothe yourself, nor the summer for scorching you when you haven't the sense to get into the shade.

Not to mention that I'd rather have the very human poke in the eye from Gypsy over the Divine boot to the ass later on down the road for being too sure of myself to accept criticism and exercise due deligence.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
19:06 / 05.08.06
I was an aggressive not-particularly comprehensable twat at the start of that thread above, and it's probably an example of me at my worst. Although I was labouring under the influence of 6 pints of stella when I made the first post, apologised immediately, and spent the next few days trying to elucidate as clearly as I could on where I was coming from. But I think - once you get past the snark - there's some great writing in that thread from all parties.
 
 
Olulabelle
20:55 / 05.08.06
Yes I think so too.

It's easy to accuse Gypsy of being too harsh, for some people it's almost an automatic reaction, but actually if you think about what he is saying, he has almost always got a point. An example of this could be the recent conversation in the tattoo thread with Johnny Enigma regarding getting Runes tattooed. Now I know Johnny E IRL and I know that he is a rigorous thinker, an avid reader and a serious practitioner. He spent a long time considering magic before becoming involved and about a year ago he was a big borrower of my books. So my automatic reaction in that thread was to leap to his defence, he's a nice chap, don't be harsh.

But I didn't because Gypsy was right, six months is a tiny amount of time to be working with Runes, tattoos are very permanent things and the Runes should not be treated lightly.

Johnny E reacted very well to Gypsy and so it didn't degenerate into a row, and that's because both Johnny and Gypsy are serious about magic, but often people react badly because they don't like being criticised and they feel stupid.

But the thing is, perhaps they feel stupid because they are being, a bit?

I read Gypsy's posts with fascination. He is often harsh, but correct almost always. He is also extremely funny in a 'makes me want to hide behind a cushion' way. But primarily Gypsy knows a fuck of a lot and it shows. He provides sources and stimulates discussion. I learn a great deal indeed and I like very much to follow discussions he is involved in. He is not the Temple police and I think that perhaps people sometimes seem to think he should be and maybe he does too. But if someone's pissing you off on a message board and being a bit of an idiot, messing around talking about a subject you are really clear on when they clearly aren't, well why not pull them up on it? Why not?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
22:11 / 05.08.06
johnny e.'s post was kind of a case in point. I came to the thread a bit late, and was reading the exchange with widening eyes and a dawning sense of concern, already composing a "7 months, are you HIGH?" post in my head. The only reason my response to j.e. is smooth and not chunky is because Gypsy happened to have responded before I did, otherwise it'd be my name next to the shouty post. A shouty post really needs to happen in that kind of context.
 
 
*
23:29 / 05.08.06
Am I really not allowed to ask why "misogyny" = "black" in the Dabbler's thread?
 
 
redtara
23:34 / 05.08.06
Go for your life.
 
 
illmatic
08:39 / 06.08.06
Isn't that obvious, id? Am I missing something?

(Probably).
 
 
Ganesh
08:53 / 06.08.06
I feel Barbelith has an endemic problem with bullying

As one of those Barbe-bullies, I feel that you have a problem with generalising rather sweepingly about the board as a whole. I suppose it's nice (if deeply patronising) that you see us all as a project of sorts, Nobody's Girl. It's possibly not the best use of your time, however; staying away might be a more productive plan.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:26 / 06.08.06
But we drove away JAMM! And he didn't learn anything! Don't you see?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
10:15 / 06.08.06
'Bullying' really seems to be the complaint du jour wherever I look nowadays. The frequency of its appearance - not just on Barbelith, but everywhere - is making it increasingly difficult to treat it with anything other than indifference.
 
 
illmatic
10:17 / 06.08.06
I don't think bringing up a row from two years ago (the JAMM thread) is relevant here. It's not part of the discussion, is it? I'd rather keep it focused on Temple stuff.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
10:32 / 06.08.06
I think it's relevant in that it establishes a certain form for Nobody's Girl, who's the person mainly bringing the accusations of bullying. We're also seeing an accusation of this bullying being a long-term problem endemic to the board as a whole, and of this being reflected in the Temple, making older threads relevant.

But you're right--for the purposes of this thread, it might be more useful to try and stay focused on the Temple specifically.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:31 / 06.08.06
I think it's worth noting, perhaps, that NG has considerable form on this - see also here. It's unfortunate, but so far attempts to get a bit of depth on these inquiries have largely foundered.

Problem is, bullying is the universal donor of Internet communities. It justifies any level of abuse directed at the perceived bully, as one is fighting for the freedom of the oppressed, and it does not actually require any substantiation. If nobody else comes forward to support the allegation, then that only proves how very bullied and oppressed they are. As a dynamic, this is self-healing, self-reinforcing and almost totally impossible to reason with, especially if the bringer of the accusations refuses to read or respond to attempts to approach the accusations with anything other than unconditional agreement.
 
 
Tom Tit's Tot: A Girl!
15:13 / 06.08.06
Right, I was seriously going to stay out of this, as I've managed to stay away for 6+ months but for one post in Games... but I just can't.

I find it somewhat ironic that the people that find NG's comments so offensive are by and large the ones who are driving people away from this board. Interesting people. People that Barbelith could probably do with having. This isn't just hypothetical people, but are people that have read Barbelith extensively in the past and have always stopped short of joining, often due to the attitude and actions of a select few.

Ganesh, I suppose your relationship with NG got off to a bad start when you repeatedly made extremely questionable comments about people suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder, which bothers both her and myself (and others, I would hope) for a variety of reasons, one of which is that some of our close friends and relatives struggle with BPD. Now, I know you're not a doctor or anything, so there's not necessarily an ethical dimension to your post (other than treating people a lack of prejudice) but it's not like you've stopped doing so - even though you offered an apology to NG eventually. Clearly you understood that your comments were not totally acceptable, yet did not choose to alter your behaviour. I don't believe that mental illness is a reason for invalidationg the opinions and emotions of others. I wouldn't bother mentioning this, except I believe it helps to explain why you're so keen for NG to go away.

I've had run-ins with people on Barbelith, and most of them have resolved themselves in a satisfactory manner. On occasion, however, I have felt bullied, and eventually I just realized that I was getting very little out of posting here due to a few people (not necessarily people in this thread) and decided to fuck off. I'm only posting now because, obviously I left due to what could be construed as bullying although really it's more likely to be general dickishness, and I know at least three other people that didn't join or left for similar reasons - so I tend to believe that there is some substance to NG's statements. I don't think it's organized or endemic but it's far more of an issue than 'lithers and particularly the people responsible for that behaviour are willing to admit.

No, this sort of thing is not uncommon, particularly on fora. I don't think that qualifies as an excuse, however.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:34 / 06.08.06
Hi there, Tom. Any chance you could substantiate your claim that interesting people that the board could do with having are being driven away? Feel free to include yourself if you feel that would be useful, although you might want to try to support that with examples of any benefit you have provided to Barbelith. Only, right now you seem to be adding little more but further proof that you and NG are a pair of fantasists enlisting an army of imaginary friends in the pursuit of a vendetta against your chosen bugbears, such as Ganesh and Gypsy Lantern.

Thanks!
 
 
grant
15:36 / 06.08.06
Now, I know you're not a doctor or anything,

Is my sarcasm filter not working, or is this a serious comment?

(This is a genuine comment -- Ganesh is, as far as I know, an NHS psychiatrist; an actual medical doctor specializing in mental illness.)

I've never thought Barbelith (and especially the Temple) has been prone to bullying, especially when compared to other boards. I do think there's a tendency to what I've called "stick fighting" elsewhere -- a kind of aggressive verbal fencing, maybe. But in a very general sense, I think that's a good thing. Specific instances can get kind of messy and brawly, but in general, it gets people thinking.
 
 
illmatic
16:01 / 06.08.06
This is why I didn't want people to bring up other threads - it's now become a general Nobody's Girl and Tom Tit vs the board thread, rather than talking about the Temple. It's an argumentative strategy that I don't like - establishing someone's "form" - "They've got previous!" - which in this instance has just served to open up old rows.

Haus, is callling the two of them a "pair of fantasists" really helpful? I'm quite prepared to believe that friends of theirs decided not to join up or have left the board. For the record, I don't think either of you have been subject to bullying, but I'll concede that people have been really rude to you in that past. Perhaps with justification, perhaps not. Ultimately, I don't think there's a universial standard of politness we can get everyone to conform to here.

Much as I think NG's is completely off the mark with her comments about Gypsy, I still think it'd be a shame if she left the board over this.
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:02 / 06.08.06
I'd like to make a less snarky version of Haus request and invite people who feel that they have been bullied to start threads and point to the incidents. You can PM me, if you like, and we can discuss it with a view to bringing it out in the open (though you can trust me to keep pms confidential and not force you into the open if you really don't want to go that way).

The thing is that these accusations are rather serious, and I take them seriously. On the other hand, making them frivolously reflects very badly on the accuser. I'd apprecite it if people either backed down or were upfront about their grievance.
 
  

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