BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Moderating the Temple

 
  

Page: 1 ... 56789(10)1112131415... 35

 
 
Quantum
21:28 / 24.09.06
which fora? How about Policy maybe this thread or perhaps this one.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
21:29 / 24.09.06
Either you're proposing amending posts against the authors will or cajoling people into not blaspheming in-thread.

Or maybe I was asking for others to try and respect other people's religious beliefs, and thought this had baring on the discussion already hapening here? Maybe I have not offended anyone's religion. Maybe I have... Although I don't think so.

Nevermind, I'll work out which thread and fora to ask all this. Might even start my first thread in Temple (I think).

TTFN.
 
 
paranoidwriter waves hello
21:29 / 24.09.06
(Ahh, x-post. Sorry. And thanks, Quantum)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:32 / 24.09.06
I think we can all agree that moderating for use of the name of the Christian God and his only beloved son (not _quite_ the same as blasphemy) is a board-wide issue, and therefore while Policy would be the right forum, this is not the right thread. A new thread might be required, or, if the taking of the Lord's name in vain is to be thought of as "something that is wrong with Barbelith, one could file it under "Is something wrong with Barbelith".
 
 
Quantum
21:40 / 24.09.06
bumped the modding for taste thread. On topic now?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:07 / 24.09.06
Absolutely. I think your point that this is really about not being shit, rather than specifying a particular form of shitness, is quite right, Quantico. That, then, comes back to the question of how far we can moderate for shitness of post, which in turn, I think, comes back to the idea of the "heavily moderated thread" - one in which a flag is put up saying that moderators will submit for deletion in this thread far more readily, rather than trying to steer back on topic, or take issue, and that people cannot expect their posts or their responses to be discussed before being moved for deletion, or copied and sent to them. Of course, you'd need the moderators on board for that - one person with ideological disagreement with that could quite easily banjax the whole thing. However, in principle, as long as this was carefully signposted, this seems credible - there's a sort of anti-precedent in the "non-debate" threads. My next question would probably be "why would anyone then want any other kind of thread?", of course.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
04:51 / 25.09.06
Haus, it just seems to me that Khorosho, specifically, is bannable because he's a troll, and possibly because of the preceding episodes, photos of aborted foetuses etc. In that case, there's a whole archive of stupid behavior, including his outburst about Christianity. No problem there.

However, I was responding very specifically to xk's proposal that 'Christianophobia' should be added to the list of behaviours we don't like on Barbelith. I think it's unnecessary. Worse, I fear it depoliticises the point of not considering Islamophobia acceptable behaviour, and flattens 'religions' into equivalent parcels of individual beliefs that have nothing to do with geopolitics, or government, or law. Religions are not equivalent.

And pw, Marx would have said capital was religious, political and economic. With which sentiments I concur. Therefore, respect my beliefs, and please forbear to speak of 'economics', 'money', 'the market' and the like.
 
 
Ticker
12:32 / 25.09.06
However, I was responding very specifically to xk's proposal that 'Christianophobia' should be added to the list of behaviours we don't like on Barbelith. I think it's unnecessary. Worse, I fear it depoliticises the point of not considering Islamophobia acceptable behaviour, and flattens 'religions' into equivalent parcels of individual beliefs that have nothing to do with geopolitics, or government, or law. Religions are not equivalent.

MD can you please help me understand why I should view Christianophobia as any different or dangerous than Islamophobia? I have been following you that you believe criticising Christianity as a part of our culture is an essential deconstruction tool but I do not follow that expressing disgust of Christianity or even disrespect for the practice of it is not equivalent to doing the same for other religions.

I do not follow you that I should be more tolerant of one religion and culture and not another especially in the Temple where people are discussing faith as opposed to the Head Shop where we may discuss cultural politics.

To be very clear the type of Christianophobia I would like us to address is the one in thirty/thirty's post I linked earlier not the thoughtful critique of the Vatican over in Head Shop. Please understand me, I'm not saying critiques of any religion or culture should be taboo on the board, rather I'm saying I believe we do need to extend the same level of respect to people who practice a variety of traditions and not assume we know what their practice entails. As this thread is on moderating the Temple I'm speaking directly to posters use of that forum and how to encourage an atmosphere condusive to someone discussing their faith without fear of nasty prejudiced attacks. I do not believe a critique of Christianity as whole geo-political system belongs there as Haus' Vatican thread has proven nicely.
 
 
Quantum
12:50 / 25.09.06
It depoliticises our intolerance of Islamophobia? I'm not sure about that, care to clarify? It's not as though our stance on Islamophobia is diluted by rejecting other forms of intolerance, is it?

I was thinking, I hesitate to treat the temple differently, but religious intolerance is not the same as musical/political/Who intolerance. If I say the Scissor Sisters are shite and you are a fool for loving them, that's one thing, if I say your God or Gods are shite and you're a fool for loving them that's quite different and much more affecting.
To use the Pope as an example, his unwise quote about Islam arguably led to a nun and her bodyguard getting shot dead. You don't get that response about pop music or being a Tory.

So my point? Let's crack down on -ophobic posts in thread as we do now, and if we do have some sort of flag it is going to mostly act as a self-censoring deterrent asking people to tread carefully. Guarantee we'll get just as much policy discussion of deletions even if we explicitly warn everyone it will be moderated.
 
 
Quantum
12:54 / 25.09.06
"why would anyone then want any other kind of thread?"

Well quite. Perhaps though the existence of the flagged threads will act like training wheels and gradually we won't need them anymore because *all* Temple threads will be high-interest top quality gems. Then we can talk about Catholicism without people bemoaning 'teh evil church that burnt our brethren!1!'
 
 
Disco is My Class War
13:36 / 25.09.06
MD can you please help me understand why I should view Christianophobia as any different or dangerous than Islamophobia? I have been following you that you believe criticising Christianity as a part of our culture is an essential deconstruction tool but I do not follow that expressing disgust of Christianity or even disrespect for the practice of it is not equivalent to doing the same for other religions.

I do not follow you that I should be more tolerant of one religion and culture and not another especially in the Temple where people are discussing faith as opposed to the Head Shop where we may discuss cultural politics.

I'm not claiming that we should be more tolerant of any one religion than another. I'm saying that there is no generalised system of 'religious phobias' which can be likened to each other and treated as precisely the same. Just like you can't really claim that heterophobia is exactly the same thing as homophobia, and both should be banned. Each phobia is its very own, with its own idiosyncrasies.

I've tried to avoid getting anecdotal here, but my father was a Catholic. Now, if, because of my previous experiences with Catholicism, and intimacy with how it psychologises and pathologises people in various ways, I am inclined to jokingly sledge the Catholic Church occasionally, or even express my deep-seated antagonism towards it, that's a pretty different order of fear/hatred to theoretically expressing a fear of Islam. Because I am not related to any Muslims and any view I expressed (whatever the sentiment) would inevitably come from ignorance. If knowledge breeds hatred -- intimate knowledge, in the body and the psyche, not just 'learning' -- isn't that a little different to your average religious phobia that stems from fear of difference?

My point is that to hate or fear Islam is not the same thing, qualitatively, as it is to hate or fear Christianity, or any other 'faith' or 'religion'. Each takes place through different mechanisms, different kinds of discourse, different ways that knowledge or ignorance or myth or history or politics intersects with feeling.

Getting back to the topic -- what I'm starting to suspect, here, is that people are regarding the Temple as a place where it's standard to discuss 'faith' in an individualised, depoliticised way where raising politics and history isn't really appropriate. I'm aware that the Catholic discussion was slated for moving to the Temple, and I'm glad it didn't. I don't think it's possible to discuss Catholicism, or any religion, without discussing politics at the same time. But the Temple was never a space where people compared 'faiths'; it's always been quite specifically about magickal practice and method. (That's why it used to be called the Magick.) But never mind, times change, and I don't frequent the Temple much, so perhaps it's not my concern.
 
 
Ticker
20:28 / 25.09.06
Getting back to the topic -- what I'm starting to suspect, here, is that people are regarding the Temple as a place where it's standard to discuss 'faith' in an individualised, depoliticised way where raising politics and history isn't really appropriate. I'm aware that the Catholic discussion was slated for moving to the Temple, and I'm glad it didn't. I don't think it's possible to discuss Catholicism, or any religion, without discussing politics at the same time. But the Temple was never a space where people compared 'faiths'; it's always been quite specifically about magickal practice and method. (That's why it used to be called the Magick.) But never mind, times change, and I don't frequent the Temple much, so perhaps it's not my concern.

Er, it says faith on the tin up top on the main forum overview page, no?
The Catholic discussion was never slated to be moved, there was a window of an hour or so when Haus helped me breakdown why it was a better fit for Head Shop. I sorted out that my unease-freakout was due to the Temple being viewed as a jerk-magnet and therefore inhospitable to serious conversations around complex matters of faith, which was a separate matter from what Haus intended the Vatican thread to be about.

MD, what kind of Temple would you be drawn to post in? My true goal here is to help foster a more vital exchange around 'Faith, magic and mysticism, bodywork, and applied psychology'. I've been doglike worrying the SCURED-XIAN-asshatery because several respected posters mentioned it as a deterrent. It sounds to me, please do correct me, that for yourself the all inclusive approach does not thrill you?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
20:52 / 25.09.06
I seem to remember the change of name from Magick to Temple was in part to encompass religion.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:13 / 25.09.06
I don't think it's possible to discuss Catholicism, or any religion, without discussing politics at the same time. But the Temple was never a space where people compared 'faiths'; it's always been quite specifically about magickal practice and method.

And there is no "practice" or "method" to people's takes on Christianity, or Islam, or Buddhism, or...? And no "politics" to magick? And no bleed between any of them?

I'm sorry, I really don't understand what you're saying.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
01:24 / 26.09.06
Well, it does say faith on the forum blurb, so there we go, I look to have argued myself into a nice linty corner. And of course magick is (potentially) political, Stoat, that wasn't what I meant.

xk, I don't know that I'm going to be able to explain further than I have already, and make you understand. My perspective on this thing is not coming from a point of 'non-tolerance'; I feel like that should be obvious, but it doesn't appear to be. Anyhow, at this point I should bow out. I'm not helping, am I.
 
 
Olulabelle
07:45 / 26.09.06
Now, if, because of my previous experiences with Catholicism, and intimacy with how it psychologises and pathologises people in various ways, I am inclined to jokingly sledge the Catholic Church occasionally, or even express my deep-seated antagonism towards it, that's a pretty different order of fear/hatred to theoretically expressing a fear of Islam.

Surely only if we are made aware of the fact that you have RL links to the religion before you make the comment?

I agree it is different in some cases, perhaps if we were all sitting around a table familiar with each others back story, but I don't think you can make the same application when you post on a messageboard full of 'strangers'.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
12:24 / 26.09.06
Having realised how much I've been posting in the thread despite rarely posting in the Temple, I'm trying to rectify that and de-cloak there a bit- I figure it's a bit off of me to have opinions on what a forum I only lurk in should do, almost like I'm sitting back and demanding to be entertained and enlightened. So I'm making an attempt to contribute.
 
 
Ticker
13:09 / 26.09.06
yay for Stoatie!

MD, I do believe there is a space for people to criticise and express anger towards a system which has abused them. Framed in a thread intended for the purpose would make sense.

To wheel out my own bit of history I attended on scholarship a private Catholic middle and part of high school. My mother has always approached her Jew-ishness as a cultural identity rather than a religious one and my father is a pagan-antagnostic. I was a 'troubled but bright' kiddo and the scholarship was really quite a saving grace as I benefited massively from the small class sizes and patient teachers.
Trouble started when I entered the high school at 14 and started trying to win over the older cool kids with my dad's fortean tales of high weirdness and good ghost stories. One day I got called into the Head Minister's Office and was confronted by two of my supposed friends crying on the sofa. The minister informed me they had accused me of threatening to sacrifice them.

I shit you not.

Anyway I laughed 'cause WTF, really, until it dawned on me they *were* serious. I just sort of went numb at that point as I was directed to the Head Mistresses office. There the HM, a nun, spent a good hour yelling at me and calling me jewish trash and a drug addict and a future street walker etc etc. She was yelling so loudly my friends heard her through the ventilation system in the building.

My mother was called in I got handed over and fell into a shocked depression. I had never in my life seen an adult behave like that or say things like that. It got pretty bad during my expelling and the effects have always stayed with me.

It took me a long time and meeting some other varieties of Christians to separate one specific set of assholes' behavior & one set of cultural prejudices from others. I have benefited from great kindness from people who derived a majority of their self identity from the teachings of Christ. As a pagan I have been welcomed many times into the UU church for events, and I have spoken to compassionate caring Catholics who do actually go out and adopt minority children with HIV and developmental problems.

I believe we as a culture need to have serious hard dialogue around embedded dynamics being carried in memeplexes like the Catholic version of Christianity. However to condemn someone for being foolish enough or mean enough to call themselves Christian as thirty/thirty did serves no productive purpose and offers us as a community no new tools to help understand our world and each other.
 
 
grant
14:22 / 26.09.06
I'm thinking that above would make a great seed topic for a thread on -- what, personal relations with the church? My Christian Backstory? In Temple, of course. Might find some interesting things out.
 
 
Ticker
14:50 / 26.09.06
if ya start it grant I'd be happy to repost, link, or whatevah you think would work best.
 
 
EvskiG
15:08 / 26.09.06
Some of us, of course, have no Christian backstory at all, so a broader title (e.g., My Religious Backstory) might be a better idea -- unless you just want to focus on Christianity.
 
 
Quantum
17:24 / 26.09.06
Won't it just become a list of horror stories?
 
 
Ticker
17:57 / 26.09.06
no we can make a point to put in good ones.
 
 
Quantum
18:22 / 26.09.06
OK, but beware- I think there are more negative Catholic backstories than any other kind of backstory you're likely to get. Personally I like Catholics, great churches, good poor work etc. but I was never taught by a nun.
 
 
Ticker
18:25 / 26.09.06
I thought we were after a bigger perspective than just tales'o'catholics? Figured we might go the Tales of Religious Folk or How I Learned To Love the 'Lith.
 
 
Quantum
18:55 / 26.09.06
a bigger perspective than just tales'o'catholics

Well yeah but inevitably there will be many stories of priestly horror in my experience. Let's do it and focus on religious upbringing in general, including the way people often rebel against their parent's religion.
 
 
grant
19:01 / 26.09.06
While you were having this discussion, I went and did it. And then wrote a boring post about the problem of having a boring parish.

I sometimes wish my friend Van, writer of maniacal missives, was on here -- I'm sure he's got something more interesting to say about his dodging an obligatory year in a Buddhist monastery.

Since he's not, somebody else say something, quick.
 
 
illmatic
19:46 / 26.09.06
Grant, I liked your post. I thought it was very thoughtful and found it interesting. I can't add anything, I'm afraid, until someone starts a "my aetheist backstory" thread.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
19:52 / 26.09.06
I'm trying to write one at the moment- the difficult bit is that while it all seems very important to me, it's kind of hard conveying that!
 
 
grant
20:45 / 26.09.06
I can't add anything, I'm afraid, until someone starts a "my aetheist backstory" thread.

I dunno -- if that kind of upbringing shaped (or warped) your spiritual thinking/practice today, then I suppose it'd be quite appropriate.
 
 
illmatic
20:57 / 26.09.06
I don't know if it did really. Just a pleasant, non-judgemental absence, that let me make up my own mind.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:52 / 08.10.06
OK, so we've got someone here saying they get the impression that the Temple is anti-religious, which I guess vindicates the existence of the thread on its own.

I've said pretty much the same (though a lot more heavily-qualified) myself earlier in this thread- how much of a problem do people think this actually is?
 
 
The Falcon
21:06 / 08.10.06
Here, rather.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
21:56 / 08.10.06
Yeah, I fucked up the html first time round- I'm guessing when it was modded to remove my thread-breakiness whoever fixed it linked to the page instead of the timestamp.
 
 
Unconditional Love
21:58 / 08.10.06
I dont think there is a problem, the temple represents a variety of differing view points towards religion, a mutiplicity of differing faiths and practices, and those who question religous/spiritual practice entirely, i think thats a healthy mixture.

For the temple to be solely pro religion or solely anti religion would be a problem to me posting there, the ambiguity and mixture of positions makes the terrain there more creative and inspiring when it comes to discussing spiritual practices and traditions. I have never seen the temple as a black and white them and us space, and when i have or others have we are usually taken down a few notches for the lack of foresight and empathy towards others.
 
  

Page: 1 ... 56789(10)1112131415... 35

 
  
Add Your Reply