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Fiction Suit: A User's Manual

 
  

Page: 1 ... 34567(8)9

 
 
Seth
09:20 / 19.12.01
May, you certainly are big hearted. We like you lots! You bring out the best in us.

 
 
Papess
09:22 / 19.12.01
Thanks expressionless!
How did you make that cute smilie?

-May
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:41 / 19.12.01
there's nothing to apologize for May, I was not offended in the least.

And as for expressionless' magick graemlins, we've been trying to get him to show us his bag of tricks with that for awhile.

His magic is mighty.
 
 
Seth
09:58 / 19.12.01
It'll cost you.
 
 
Papess
09:58 / 19.12.01
Oh mighty expressionless one!
All I have to offer you is my awe of your amusing talents

-May

[ 19-12-2001: Message edited by: May Tricks ]
 
 
Naked Flame
09:58 / 19.12.01
Warning. Rant mode on.

quote: I think that the bards and filid of Irish culture who originated the practice of satirising as a powerful form of cursing, and other storytelling magic would be very surprised to hear that they were just another form of fatbeard.

Bah. Don't try and equate RP with bardic practice. Their shit worked because they had an audience. They connected directly and sought to aid and influence their society. They were at the centre of things.

OTOH, RP has no audience. It's a closed-room activity insulated from RL. And yes, for once, fuck being fluffy and 'whatever works for you, man' because one of the biggest dangers in magick is this retreat into the self and the shiny toys of the mind. There's a world out there needs you. Don't retreat from it.

quote:Of course he's very enamoured with the left hand path, and I don't take sides, so there are moments when things get tense, because I know what he's invoking, but usually it's ok.

If you were in a RL situation and this guy started throwing dodgy mojo, what would you do? Would you 'not take sides?' What would it take to make you choose sides?

I would make a guess that in practice this question doesn't come up, because your friend is using your rp space and collective focused energy as a safety net while he plays with stuff he wouldn't have the discipline or energy to deal with IRL. Would you invoke these greeblies yourself? If not, don't allow your 'friend' to piggy-back on your consciousness.

OK. Rant mode off. Next time please don't put words in my mouth.
 
 
Papess
09:58 / 19.12.01
I'll figure this out expressionless!

[ 19-12-2001: Message edited by: May Tricks ]
 
 
Papess
09:58 / 19.12.01
Hey expressionless!


Okay, okay....I totally stole it.
Sorry, but, I just wanted to kiss you back.

-May

[ 19-12-2001: Message edited by: May Tricks ]
 
 
Ayrkain Kaivar
09:58 / 19.12.01
First, Flame On, lets try to keep this civil. I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. If it came out that way I apologise. However, not everyone uses rping to run away from reality, any more than everyone uses books to escape reality. In rping, I see the players fulfilling the function of the audience. The storyteller moves their attention point as is necessary. Sometimes it is important that people deal with moral issues in a closed-room environment so that they don't have to be humiliated later on in RL. A lot of the people I've rp'ed with have no life skills, too. Now, I have to agree with you in a lot of cases. My "friend" doesn't go with me to do my full ceremonial that I enjoy. He doesn't read Kabbalistic texts, and hates gematria. He doesn't understand why I do the Unifications of the Name, and basically craps on my practice. Hence, I haven't talked with him in 9 months.
While I wouldn't invoke the infernal things that he likes, this is a Very small town. There is one class of practioner: Satanists hiding in the local churches. I've met so many of them, in fact, that I've had to get used to their constant games in RL, so rping with one isn't so bad.
The thing that pissed me off about what you said was just that I intend to use GURPS to run some one-on-one hypersigil-type stories for a new friend of mine. I realise that your experience hasn't been so great. Mine had some negative points too. But I _believe_ with all that is in me, that everything in life is Magic. That includes Everything. From the smallest sect to the hobby shop. Everything is magic. Different strokes for different folks. RPing is not going to stop me from my regular meditation and ceremonial rites. And for me, it is just another part of my magic, an interactive story. In ritual I put on a fictionsuit that exists only in my mind. In life, I approach new situations with confidence that exists only in my mind. While doing analyses of the Sepher Yetsirah I must depend only on my higher Self, filtered through my mind, to give me inspiration. I think rping can work the same way. Hey, if a half-assed Satanist can make hypersigils out of a game, how much more can someone not bound by outdated anti-dogma do? Maybe it isn't your thing, but can you concede that for some, it is as potent a forum as storytelling is?
 
 
Ayrkain Kaivar
09:58 / 19.12.01
Hey, that's another fictionsuit that has saved my ass, too. I've had to be a Satanist pretending to be a Christian. I don't think I've named it, but I do slip into it everytime I'm around such people.
 
 
Naked Flame
09:58 / 19.12.01
OK, whatever works for you, man.

I still don't like it.

Apologies are due though, particularly to Lothar, who has a perfectly valid theorectical take on the idea. And to Ayrkain for being growly. Sorry. Don't get cross often.

I'll concede that this could be used as a kind of vision quest- if, and it's a big if, all participants were able, sincere, and on the same wavelength.

I think that basically the problem I have with the concept was articulated neatly by cusm: it's magic in a box. Y'see, on the one hand you're making a case that the imagination is a safe, 'playground' space to interact with magickal energies and entities. On the other hand, you're making a case that it would be a space to do real grownup magick in. Now I like paradox as much as the next person, but doesn't there seem to be a little mutual exclusivity there?
 
 
Seth
10:34 / 19.12.01
Aw - I just gotta give you a hug and ruffle your hair, May. There's something waiing for you in your pivate messages...
 
 
Papess
12:03 / 19.12.01
You are so cool expressionless!

I am so excited


Can I make payments in installments?


By the way


-May

[ 19-12-2001: Message edited by: May Tricks ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:08 / 19.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Flame On:

Apologies are due though, particularly to Lothar, who has a perfectly valid theorectical take on the idea.


No problem it's been awhile since we've gotten down and dirty in the Magick.

Also, the concerns you brought up are valid and are necessary to acknowledge if any experiment is going to bring back usuable data. I've known too many RPG geeks who completely live in their little fantasies to think otherwise and the uncontrollable human factor...

'Hey, I know we're trying to stay in character and do ritual here but did you see the last episode of Buffy?'

'Dude, I know. Maybe I should create a character who goes out with someone who looks like Willow.'

...could throw a monkey wrench into the whole thing.
 
 
cusm
15:19 / 19.12.01
Evil Demons of Digression!

"Where's the Mt. Dew?"

Y'all should take a look at this if you get the chance, and haven't seen the Summoner Geeks Dr. Demento RPG movie yet. Its painfully funny.
 
 
cusm
15:21 / 19.12.01
Evil Demons of Internal Server Errors. Lets try that again and see if my last post frees itself up from Barbelith limbo with this post:
http://download.ign.com/psx/summonergeeks.exe
 
 
Ayrkain Kaivar
05:39 / 20.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Flame On:
I'll concede that this could be used as a kind of vision quest- if, and it's a big if, all participants were able, sincere, and on the same wavelength.

I think that basically the problem I have with the concept was articulated neatly by cusm: it's magic in a box. Y'see, on the one hand you're making a case that the imagination is a safe, 'playground' space to interact with magickal energies and entities. On the other hand, you're making a case that it would be a space to do real grownup magick in. Now I like paradox as much as the next person, but doesn't there seem to be a little mutual exclusivity there?


I think what you are talking about here is the essential dilemna of roleplaying, but also of fictionsuits. Some people really do hide behind fictionsuits, to the point that they live in a fantasy world. The problem comes when you try and stuff too much into a little box, and it starts to leak. So, how do we choose our suits? If you're like me, you try to follow your intuitive faculties, and hope like hell. Maybe do some divinations. But, it seems that the consensus is that just wading through the muck of the base materialistic paradigm, and changing things as you can is all you can do. At one level I think personal mythos is a function of roleplaying that is typically relegated to tradition/mythology in general. People find their place by relating to the qualities/histories/natures of their Gods/Heroes/etc in the case of tradition/mythology (People identify with societal roles and gain validation from their sympathetic links to Hero/God figures). In rping, people assume a smaller group role which tends to over-inflate their function. (Joker in the group thinks he's funnier than he is, because there are fewer people to compare to) However, there is a manifestational quality to writing that I don't see as being as strong in rping. I'm thinking about the one-on-one games my "friend" and I used to play, and it was more like collaborating on the story. So maybe the manifestations that did occur were just because I allowed him to channel both his and my energies toward his intent. Maybe, instead of running games, I need to get over my fear of rejection and just write my stories out, instead of copping out by rping.
BTW, it was my bad as much as yours. I was tense about meatspace shit when I posted, and that tension didn't really belong here, so again I apologise for being such an asshole.
Lothar: That's why I hate television... let's see, Charmed, Buffy, Angel, Xena, and Hercules... oh and that Sabrina crap. Yup, I still hate TV. If anyone did that within a five-mile radius of a game I was playing in, I'd walk out.
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
19:42 / 02.01.02
Hey expressionless...a gestal fictionsuit for ya...

City-zen Rexpressionless

We 2 are 1
 
 
Darkside of the Moo
17:13 / 25.01.02
Moo?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:40 / 13.06.02
*BUMP*
 
 
ciarconn
12:29 / 13.06.02
Hye, I am late for this thread, and I haven´t read all of it (It´s long and I have to go and watch kuds doing an exam)
I played RPGs for almost ten years (stopped because of lack of time), and the people I played with were all "magickally oriented". I was the games master most of the time, and I did some pretty good games that helped psychologically some of my friends. there was a direct relationship between their main characters and their "real" personnas.(Most of us use the name of our character as our nickname in the net)
I did do one or two games that were meant to be magickal (but not hypersigils), and they were intense.
If anyone is interested, I can expand and explain
 
 
Seth
16:48 / 13.06.02
It always kinda terrifies me when I see this thread re-emerge at the top of the forum

Here's something: I just read volume three of the Invisibles for the first time (yeah, I know, feckin' ephemerat's fault for not getting it to me sooner, I say). I liked the idea of the horribly alien "other" being nothing more than whatever "you" left on the outside outside when "you" designed the box called "you." It made me think of all the examples of dream experiences in which a nightmare, when confronted, can become a fusion between the scary shit and the dreamer, ie: an initiatory experience. Any other thoughts?
 
 
paw
19:13 / 13.06.02
explain away ciarconn
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
20:15 / 15.06.02
Terrifies you...?

Me 2

We should do something with this thread again...

It was just getting good, till we got bogged down with definitions.
 
 
Persephone
01:42 / 16.06.02
If this will not sound too disrepectful, I also like the idea of "God" being nothing more than whatever "you" left on the outside when "you" designed the box called "you." Though perhaps I would not say "nothing more," because I do believe that the box is serving a critical purpose there.
 
 
Seth
22:23 / 16.06.02
Sounds more reasonable than disrespectful, Persephone.

For my money, the perception of God seems to transcend the boundaries people draw around their identities, existing inside and outside: often infinite, awesome, incomprehensible while simultaneously intimate, personal and comforting. I've known people who create Him in their image, and people who make Him everything they're not, and while a great many who make claim to faith would outwardly confess that they let Him make them, I'm fairly sure that I've only met a few for whom this seems likely to be true (if we're adding a connotation of continuing process to the term "make," that is).

If God is whatever we choose not to include within the boundary of our identity, a lot of people seem to have taken great pains to humanise Him, at least to an extent... taking the utterly alien and giving It a nose and an arse. Sounds like Jesus as the two-way lense again. Is it God's choice to wear a fictionsuit when He walks among us, or our choice to have Him tailored in His Sunday best when we decide to venture outside ourselves? Is He (and others like Him) the divine's diving costume, or our diving costume to encounter the divine?
 
 
Ierne
15:50 / 17.06.02
It was just getting good, till we got bogged down with definitions. – "The Suit"

That's a matter of personal opinion, it seems. Some would say the only useful aspects of this extremely long and unwieldy thread are the various attempts to define exactly *what* a fictionsuit is. (But far be it from me to make anyone cry here... )

Lothar Tuppan (who is no longer here) was behind the main thrust for defining terms, both in this thread and in the Magick in general. Here's a taste of what he had to say on the subject, from earlier in this thread:

My last comment on why I felt the need to be the 'Definition Police' is that in a lot of threads (and especially this one) we use a lot of terminology. 'Fictionsuit', 'godform', etc. If we're trying to create a 'user's manual' then we better start agreeing on what the hell these things mean and what we're talking about here.

While I agree that language is inadequate to convey some ideas, emotions, concepts, etc. more often than not, the limitations come from inaccurate or inappropriate usage of words.

Like trying to use a phillips head screwdriver when you need a flat head. When it doesn't work, blaming the screwdriver as being inadequate for the job really isn't fair. – Lothar Tuppan


Smart man, Lothar.
 
 
Seth
17:10 / 17.06.02
OK, Ierne - shall we give it a shot? The terms that have been used and abused in the thread so far:

...fictionsuit, self/selves, god, godform, godhead, avatar, alias, mask, pseudonym, id, ego, am, egoplex, memetic shield, character, role-play, personality, handle, invocation, embodiment, mindset, identity, Multiple Personality Disorder, Dissociative Identity Disorder, ritual self, ideal self, being rode, face, name, deity, aspect, envisionable abstract...

Starting things off is Rex City Zen's definition of "avatar:"

AVATAR

NOUN: 1. The incarnation of a Hindu deity, especially Vishnu, in human or animal form.
2. An embodiment, as of a quality or concept; an archetype: the very avatar of cunning.
3. A temporary manifestation or aspect of a continuing entity: occultism in its present avatar.
ETYMOLOGY: Sanskrit avatra, descent (of a deity from heaven), avatar : ava, down + tarati, he crosses


Then Lothar's comment after his helpful quotes on "godforms:"

All of the above examples seem to indicate that 'God Form' is a new-fangled term for god or deity or entity etc. It's also a term that relegates the entity in question to a status of almost a programmed robot. They are no longer gods, they are god forms... If a magician actually 'creates' a 'god-form' it starts off as a servitor and it'll take a lot of work for it to get as powerful as someone/thing that has been worshipped, in one way or another, by lots of people.

Persephone's pleading question:

Are we agreed that we are going to use "godform" to mean an entity, and "fictionsuit" to mean an outfit, so to speak?

Ierne's clarification:

You know...I thought a "god-form" was an assumed personality that DIVINITY wears in order to communicate with different folks who believe in different ways. The essence is whatever it is, but will express itself differently depending on the frame of mind of whoever is trying to get in touch with it. We don't create it, we just reinforce it. (Have I upped the ante in terms of confusion here? Hope not...)

Logos:

I seem to recall someone saying that the word "godform" originally came from the Thelemic or Enochian tradition, and meant an actual body position the magician took in the course of a ritual, meant to imitate a particular (Egyptian) god or goddess. In more recent usage, it seems to be related to the Tibetan idea of a tulpa ("thoughtform"), where you essentially are dealing with a comprehensible representation of an incomprehensible entity (e.g. Jehovah as an old man with a long white beard, sitting on a throne on a cloud).

Lothar's attempt at a definition of "fictionsuit:"

...and of course the way that Morrison originally used it in the Invisibles to represent the illusion of our psyche and PHYSICAL lives as his way of recapping and adding a new twist to the concepts of reincarnation and Maya. As well as his other possible intentions of the term such as entering a fictional world through your characters so you can interact with them by 'descending' like a god becoming an avatar.

For the braver among you: pick any five terms from the list in bold at the top of this post, and define the terms as best you can. If you don't want to define terms, explain why not. It'd be nice if as many as possible contribute, so that we can come to some kind of resolution. Then someone can take the results away, chip away with a hammer and chisel, and come up with an article for the 'zine.

You have your orders...
 
 
Ierne
18:48 / 17.06.02
Hmmm...don't have time for five, but I'll take on these two:

–Multiple Personality Disorder
–Dissociative Identity Disorder

because I think they are quite important elements in this scenario. I'll be back in a week or two with a paragraph on each.
 
 
ciarconn
11:51 / 19.06.02
Thinking about it, I think I have used RPGs with three different objectives:

1)psychodrama (hope the word exists in english). The basic idea is to allow the player to solve, or at least to notice, his psychological problems by identifying himself with the character, and having the Gamesmaster handling the game towards that end. Keeping it with the ficsuit theme, it was very interesting how the personal lifes of the players were (automatically and unconsciously) projected into the characacters (mostly on the earlier ones). Things like oedipical problems or fear of solitude sprung from the player to the character. And from there, the next step was to allow the players to solve their character´s stories while having fun. On most cases it worked. And we were very careful of not going "over the edge" with the identification between the player and the character. Seeing it from years later, it all worked pretty fine.

2)Education. A more recent experience was Role playing with some of my students. In these games, I tried to have them learning skills they lacked thorugh both the gaming and the experiences of their characters.
There was a lot of identification between Player and character, and their projections of personal problems and characteristics were even more evident (probably because now I was older and they were teenagers)
Sadly, the results werebarely acceptable, one of the main problems was inner frictions between the players (which was also projected in lousy team-working for the characters).

3)Magick. I supose this might be the most interesting for the ´lithians
A personal magick I learned to work was what I call the creation of a Narratory reality. It must be somewhere along low-level Hypnosis and consensual reality. With some of my older players, I could generate a groupal trance for the game (we used to play in a mall, in public, so focusing was not always easy). I would think this helped the effects of the psychodrama workings.

I always played on a loosely based Dungeons and Dragons system, or D20 system, for those who know.

There was a one-time experience that was different. There was a ROG called Immortals. I directed a game with this system, on which they role played themselves, and there was a part where, inside the game, their characters (which were themselves) roleplayed with the devil.
As a side note, I must say that I rolepayed the devil as a gamesmaster twice, and it was scary, the "character" practically took control of the gamesmaster. Spooky stuff, really.
Back to the theme, besides it being really interesting to see a person roleplaying him/herself, the game had the magickal intention of creating another real/virtual self/identity for me. This real/virtual ficsuit worked (and still does) very fine.

So, that´s a brief abstract of ten years of roleplaying and magick. I recently quit RPGs because my family needs more of my time, and, funnily, I do not miss gaming.

I will talk about expressionless message later.
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
20:17 / 21.06.02
Quoth the Knodger:


WHAT IS A FICTIONSUIT?

We all are. Grant Morrison (him again!) coined the term ‘fictionsuit’, and every time it was used in The Invisibles it seemed to have a slightly different meaning. In the context of the Barbelith Underground, it’s simply an online name - or more properly, an online persona. People may have one or several, or several people may share one (although that gets a little crowded sometimes), and often a single person will use different ‘suits’ to explore/express different points of view and different aspects of hirself.

WHAT IS THE POINT OF A ‘FICTION SUIT?’

“Fiction suits allow you to explore through thoughts and feelings that you might shy away from In Real Life. They can allow you the chance to work through internal conflicts and contradictions without concealing them, but remember: a fiction suit isn't designed to help you AVOID responsibility. It’s there to help you see the world through the persona of a different set of eyes – and to take on the inherent responsibilities of that different persona! As far as most of us here are concerned, there is no difference between 'real' and 'fictional' suits - ALL are fiction suits - ALL are a way of appearing on this board, and other posters will attempt to find consistency in whatever the persona is that you provide. It is missing the point to operate with one suit that represents YOU and a couple of 'novelty' suits. The point is that you have the opportunity to represent an aspect of yourself that is no less real than your everyday one - be it more aggressive, more right-wing etc. It's designed to let you say what you REALLY THINK about the debates of the day without being worried about how that will reflect upon you In Real Life. Eventually, you might find that the aspects of your on-line persona that you feel most comfortable with will seep into your real life personality!”


I just had to throw that in there...
 
 
Seth
17:52 / 19.08.02
*BUMP* (partially to inflict this horror of a thread on any newbies)

From Miss Amp's interview with Chilly Gonzalez in this month's Careless Talk Costs Lives:

So, um, the magazine we're doing this for, Careless Talk -

"What?"

Careless Talk Costs Lives. Everett True's magazine. In my humble op, it's a touch schmindie. A tad geetar. And I'm thinking, some of our readers might be a little bit shy indie kid, and might not be getting laid all that often. Life's a popularity contest, right? You wanna get laid, you gotta get the chicks to dig your schtick. What would be Chilly G's top five hints to help CTCL readers win some popularity contests?

"Mm, I don't have five, but at least off the top of my head I can think of: choose a second name. If you're gonna win it, you need detachment. You have to be not really emotionally tied to the outcome of your popularity contest. You have to consider yourself like the manager of a thoroughbred horse. Try to think of yourself, like me, Jason Beck, as the coach, the guy in the corner, for Chilly Gonzalez. In this case, yeah, the same person is playing both. That kinda detachment helps a lot because if you start to fail, or if you ever slide back along the way, you're not emotionally invested. Likewise, when you win, you don't get all the ego problems that someone who's using their real name would do."

Right.

"Like, Leonard Cohen, when he gets, like, a bit hit album or something, he's like, uh, WOW, LEONARD COHEN!!! I did it! That's the name on his license and everything."

Yeah...

"Me, well, Chilly Gonzalez does really well, I can only take so much of the credit cuz, let's be honest, my real name and the name that I answer to is Jason Beck."

Do you get jealous of Chilly?

"It's not that separate. Unfortunately. This is mnore like an exercise. And I think anyone who does this exercise probably isn't that successful, and in the end you realise that it's actually more like levels of focus. There are lots of grey areas. When I'm composing it's very much Gonzalez."

Ok.

"That's a little bit like Mohammed Ali, doing a visualisation of his next fight. And like when he's doing an interview, it's a bit in-between. Then finally when you see me onstage, the hairs on the back of my neck are standing up, like Klaus Kinski, you know, like the Alpha ape, displaying to the other apes. But every step along the way is still Gonzalez, so it's not really like, OH! THERE IT IS! I'M GONZALEZ NOW!"
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
21:45 / 25.08.02
*BUMP*
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
18:43 / 05.09.02
"Like, Leonard Cohen, when he gets, like, a bit hit album or something, he's like, uh, WOW, LEONARD COHEN!!! I did it! That's the name on his license and everything."

You don't know me, you never will, you never have, you never did...I'm that little Jew who wrote the bible - The Future, Leonard Cohen

Along with the other line in that song Give me back the berlin wall, give me Stalin and St.Paul, Give me Christ or give me Hiroshima really got me thinking about who LC really is...

Since we are on the topic of Fictionsuits.
 
 
Wrecks City-Zen
22:42 / 08.01.03
bump

Just to maxe expressionless a wee bit nervous...
 
  

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