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Fiction Suit: A User's Manual

 
  

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Lothar Tuppan
09:03 / 14.12.01
Nope and nope. You'll need a *heavy metal* fictionsuit to guess this one.

And again, straddling thread rot AND on topic concepts... Has anyone used roleplaying as a means of trying something out with a safety net before trying it in their everyday lives?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:07 / 14.12.01
heh... damn server errors.


[ 14-12-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Ayrkain Kaivar
09:07 / 14.12.01
But of course. I usually tried out what you might term an alignment change... everything from LG to CE, scrupulous to diabolic, ummm... whatever alignment system was used, I tried to play the full range. After awhile my characters and I both gained a sort of amoral status among my fellow rpers. Other experiments included, gaining confidence by playing warrior-types, gaining insight by playing elderly wiseman-types (& Jedis ), and learning to deal with rage by playing a half-Klingon (BEFORE Behlana existed). Anyway... it may not sound particularly inspiring, but they were important moments in the development of my own personal paradigm.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:07 / 14.12.01
If you've never experienced your own darkness playing a chaotic evil bad guy is a great way to begin getting in touch with your shadow side.

Playing someone purely Chaotic Neutral can be, strangely liberating as well.
 
 
Ayrkain Kaivar
09:07 / 14.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Ground Zero:
Scroll back a bit.
We were stroking the tip of the iceberg wit the whole Jesus/Moses/Elias were God's fictionsuits.


Right, I read that, and what I'm thinking is layers of fiction suits, ie Creator -> Jehovah -> Jesus/Moses/Elias. Especially with the Egyptians, where assimilation of old titles was a valid and important part of their religious evolution, and we see Amoun becoming Amoun-Ra, etc, etc, ad naseum. So we could map Amoun -> Ra, in said example. Can anybody think of any REALLY complicated assimilations like that (it'd just be cool to see the diagram)?
 
 
Seth
09:07 / 14.12.01
Queensryche. "Operation: Mindcrime," to be exact.

I need to get a new copy of that album, so I can see whether the dude I met in Canada who claimed to have engineered it was lying.
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
14:29 / 14.12.01
10 points for expressionless.

When thinking about the roleplaying aspects of 'fictionsuits' I find it interesting to remember the characters that I once played that no longer have any interest for me. Lessons experienced (hopefully learned) and then discarded, to find another layer underneath.

Hmm... I wonder if one could successfully ritualize the creation process of a character in order to create a blueprint for who one wants to become. Sort of a hypersigil. Has anyone tried this before?
 
 
Gek
18:13 / 14.12.01
Hey Expressionless, I know that guy too...I met him 3 years ago - what was his name - aaargh!
 
 
cusm
19:39 / 14.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Lothar Tuppan:

Hmm... I wonder if one could successfully ritualize the creation process of a character in order to create a blueprint for who one wants to become. Sort of a hypersigil.


Sounds more like Holy Guardian Angel exercises. Ritually create your ideal self, then strive to reach it. Crowley did a lot of work in this area, if you want ritual.

As for using RPGs to explore parts of yourself, damn skippy I use that one. Its the main draw for the games to me anymore. I highly reccomend Mage for this sort of thing, incidently, if you want to explore with entire magical paradigms. You can create a working one for YOU with the game system, and try it out in game with your character as a safety net.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
09:32 / 15.12.01
Not wanting to rain on anyone's parade, but I found RPGs of limited use. Specifically, I could never get on with AD&Ds restrictive and frankly incredible alignment system... yeesh. You can get round this sort of crap with a flexible GM, but most ppl who become GMs aren't really doing it so they can practice their flexibility skills. Maybe that's just my (very limited!) experience, tho'....
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:32 / 15.12.01
quote:Originally posted by cusm:


Sounds more like Holy Guardian Angel exercises. Ritually create your ideal self, then strive to reach it. Crowley did a lot of work in this area, if you want ritual.



I'm familiar with that but what I'm theorizing is taking it to the next level. Where the magician doesn't have to strive quite so much.

In the same way that Morrison created the Invisibles as a hypersigil and then started experiencing all sorts of strange connections between him and King Mob (without striving and, with the fucked up infections, sometimes without even wanting them) I'm wondering if a character could be created that would be similar.

Also, using that character within the game world to reinforce the 'reality' of the future self character.

Since being a player is always frought with dangers and unplanned events that can mess up your plans of evolution, maybe this would be something best done by a Game Master.

The G.M. would create not a PC hyper-character but an NPC hyper-character and place hir at key points in the storyline to 1) further the story and embed hirself into the minds of the players and the player characters and;

2) To gain experience in the way of scenes in the game that reinforce who/what the Game Master wants to become.

So, what do you think?
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
09:32 / 15.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Mordant C@rnival:
You can get round this sort of crap with a flexible GM, but most ppl who become GMs aren't really doing it so they can practice their flexibility skills. Maybe that's just my (very limited!) experience, tho'....


I used the alignment statement above to make a general point but for the most part I agree that D&D sucks.

For this you would need the right game world, right game mechanics, and the right players.

And the more I think about it the more I think the Magician needs to be the GM. Being a player is placing yourself into someone else's reality.
 
 
Papess
09:32 / 15.12.01
With a flexible GM it could be a shared alternate reality.

-May
 
 
Seth
09:32 / 15.12.01
Rex: His name was Paul Milner (although I think he changed his surname at some point). His TV was the one used for sound effects on the album.

Why not tailor a roleplaying group for a group working? It would entail a lot of work, but I'm sure the GM would have help from the players. Everyone would be involved in the working, designed to help eveyone in some way.
 
 
Gek
19:15 / 15.12.01
How could we go about doing that expressionless? I'm game if anyone else is. Start our own little role playing group working right here!!
oh wait...isn't that Barbelith already?

[ 15-12-2001: Message edited by: City-zen Rex ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
19:27 / 15.12.01
If people wanted to do a real experiment it would be good to do two groups. Say a limited campaign of 23 sessions (or whatever number has power and meaning for the groups).

1 group would be a regular roleplaying situation with only the GM being in on the magical aspects of it with hir regular players in meatspace. As far as the players would be concerned, this would just be a normal campaign. A hypersigil NPC would be injected into the storyline (starting off small with some relatively mundane magical goals... kind of like starting off sigiling to encounter a person wearing a certain type of clothes etc.)

The second group would be made up of people who all participated in the magical aspects of it and knew full well what was going on.

It would sort of be a blind test to see which elements are more effective. Does the 'occult' aspect of the first group (the action being completely hidden) help the working? Does the blind charging by the unsuspecting players work like a regular sigil charging where since the players don't know what it's about, they have no problem forgetting the sigil after it's been cast?

or does the group ritual element of the second group continually reinforce and charge the working? Is the sum of the working greater than the parts?

Are there any gamers out there that would be interested in participating in such an experiment and then writing up their results after the campaign came to a close?

I really wish I had a gaming group now.

Fuck. Even if it was a bust, that would be fun.

And what if we actually came up with something that worked?

[ 15-12-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Ayrkain Kaivar
23:17 / 15.12.01
My best friend and I used to do something like what you are proposing. His games really were hypersigils. Everything was about character development, to the point that sometimes he got really cinematic, and other times we were counting ammo. See, the problem is that I don't even know how to describe it. Usually we'd game with our group of "Know-nothings", and then go back to his house and do a one-on-one session that would sometimes last for two or three days without either of us realising it. We played A LOT of White Wolf/GURPS/and others like Rifts, Fuzion, and a couple of systems he wrote himself. Anyway, usually the one-on-one session was fueled by the GM's frustration concerning the lack of good players in the group game. The manifestational effects of the one-on-one were also stronger (I would have thought there might be an inverse proportion, but no) than the group game. In fact, the group game often served very little purpose other than psychological healings in certain people. However I consider this a side-effect of good rping. With that statement I exclude all hack'n'slash, all number crunches, and all White Wolf wannabes (ie overly gothic people who don't actually understand the vampire as a metaphor for humanity's tendency to feed upon itself) Not to say that I don't believe that a vamp. could exist, but I don't think that most Masqueraders are as gothic as they think they are. So now that I've rambled off the topic, I bid you adieu.

Ayrkaine Kaivar
 
 
Papess
00:32 / 16.12.01
Okay I was never a big role-playing fantasy game player...(not an entirely true statement), however, I am interested in a Barbelith Magick game. Where do these two teams come from? Who would be GM? (Rex? Lothar seems to know what ze is doing.)Would the playersb who "didn't know" come from Magick or another part of Barbelith? Would the charaters be already designed or would we invent our own? How would we keep track of each character?

-May
 
 
Seth
10:28 / 16.12.01
I'm not sure how much it is possible to have an online game in a medium such as a message board, messenger or chat room. It's just too clumsy, not very well adapted to the task.

The only way I could see this working is with a meat-group. But hey, as someone rightly pointed out, Barbelith is a lot like a role-playing game. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to hunt Haus through the Conversation so I can decapitate him with my enchanted axe....
 
 
Ayrkain Kaivar
05:16 / 17.12.01
I agree. I've seen on-line rping, and it ain't pretty. Most of it has to do with how eloquently you can type in less than a second. I guess I'm just an old fashioned pencil&paper person (I don't even like character sheets).
 
 
cusm
13:28 / 17.12.01
PBEM can be good, but its hard to keep it alive. It takes awfully long, as each round can take up to a week. The good part being, people have the time to compose detailed responses and flesh out their characters. At best, it turns into colaborative fiction. Really, meat games are best.

I'm rather spoiled. My gaming group of the past 10 years consists of enough occulty types to almost be a magickal group at times. Lines occasionally get crossed that way, but rarely overtly. Its kept within the realm of gaming for the most part, which helps, actually. More of a safety net.

In a cooperative group, we all contribute to create the world. The GM tries hard to not kill characters, but we all understand that if it was dramaticly appropriate, it'll happen. You have to accept the possibility of character death to include enough of a sense of realism to get into it the right way. If you're not afraid enough to be cautious and use the characters own sense of survival, you're not really there.
 
 
Naked Flame
14:57 / 17.12.01
noooo! no roleplaying magick!

I mean it's a viable idea and all that, but when they write the magical history of Barbelith, d'you want to go down as a fatbeard? It's just... not cool. Play for real, within the shared context of the 'real' world. and if you want a bit of escapism, go get some.

(edit: I don't want to diss those of you that are roleplayers. I just think that there's a solipsistic 'let's make up our own universe' aspect to RP that, while making it great training for later magical life and plenty good fun, can have an 'uprooting' effect, leading you away from consensus reality. Now I don't subscribe to the consensus, y'unnerstand- I just think it's more productive to re-imagine it and translate into my own paradigm than to start
over with an imagined planet that could turn into a kind of alternate earth.)

apologies are perhaps in order... Coming into a thread after 200+ plus posts reminds me of being at uni and overhearing two profs arguing: 'And eleventhly...'

My two cents: we're all fictionsuits, in that there is absolutely no way that we can prove any of the things that we identify absolutely exist. There's only conciousness: identity is a lie.

It's a useful lie, though: it's your survival kit for interacting within the hostile sub-context that we know as real life. understand it as a fiction and it ceases to imprison you: you can if you wish effect a transformation into anything and anyone the situation requires, limited only by your ability to rewrite the rules.

[ 17-12-2001: Message edited by: Flame On ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
15:39 / 17.12.01
I also think that it would have to be groups in Meatspace. And since I don't have an existing gaming group as well as not being physically close to anybody else's locales, I'm certainly not the right one to run a group.

If I had a gaming group though I'd love to run the group with the players being in the dark as to the real purpose.

In response to Flame On's concerns, I agree that those are problems with standard rpg experiences but I also think that could be a problem with any storytelling purpose that is for the escapism of the teller.

Whether it be a rpg campaign, written hypersigil, oral story or whatever, if your goal is to 'escape' into an idealized version of yourself your magic is gonna be pretty lame.

Like any form of magic, discipline, control, focus, and knowing yourself is going to be what makes the magic.

The same thing that separates a magical poser (wow look at me do this ritual I'm doing MAGIC) from some one who really gets into a magical state of consciousness is the same thing that would separate the magician using RPGs as a tool from the pretentious fatbeard who has only created his future self on paper still wondering why he didn't win the lottery in real life since his character has.

[ 17-12-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Ayrkain Kaivar
19:47 / 17.12.01
I agree with Lothar. People who make idealised versions of themselves aren't fit role-players to participate in a hypersigil exercise. Remember, just because you've had bad experiences doesn't mean it has to be that way. Not all role-playing is escapism. Reading a book can be escapist (Tolkien wrote an article in the Tolkien reader called "On Fairy Stories" great article and a lot of it applies to RPGs), but it doesn't have to be that way. I've only met one person who rp's in hypersigils, but he is really good at it. Of course he's very enamoured with the left hand path, and I don't take sides, so there are moments when things get tense, because I know what he's invoking, but usually it's ok. Like I said previously, there were times when 3 days would go by, and we'd keep going without food/water, just bathroom breaks. The manifestations were tremendous, not to mention side benefits, like figuring out my own inner beliefs, and discovering terms for mental states I was unable to describe to anyone else at that time. All in all, I'd rather learn by role-play than by rote (be it book, comic book, or otherwise). There aren't any mentor figures here where I live, so my question is, how else can one learn how to be a magician, other than just acting it out, Flame?
 
 
cusm
23:13 / 17.12.01
I'll have you know, I'm not a Fatbeard, but SleezyGoateeGuy
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
00:36 / 18.12.01
I'll have you know I'm LonghairedFreakyGoateeGuy.
 
 
cusm
01:25 / 18.12.01
Aah, touche. I was SensitivePonytailGuy until Halloween, when I shaved it bald for shock value (and as a ritual component...). The fuzzy head is fun, but sometimes I miss my hair
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
01:30 / 18.12.01
We could both shave our heads bald, practice our menacing glares and be wannabesatanicgoateeguys

"Aren't we menacing? Aren't you afraid? Don't you want to sleep with us in our unholy dens of pihsroW nataS?"

...

"Stop laughing... now. I mean it... please?"
 
 
Papess
01:30 / 18.12.01
Hey Lothar, How about your fictionsuit and my fictionsuit go back to my fictionplace and have a few fictiondrinks and a bit of fictionfun!

-May Tricks
 
 
Naked Flame
01:30 / 18.12.01
quote: how else can one learn how to be a magician, other than just acting it out, Flame?

Just do it! </nike>

siriusly, just get out there and use it. there can be no rehearsals for life. if it doesn't make sense it will if you follow the thread.

Points taken, folks... I still think that there's a basic root meme underpinning RP as an act of performance- that says 'this is not real'- which would, to my mind, defuse the potential of magical acts undertaken in RP and furthermore lead you down a road of personal solipsism- eg your reality diverging from consensus reality as opposed to remaining within and redefining it- thus divesting you of potential personal power, and depriving the world of the full glory of your shared self. Such a memehook is admittedly easier to deal with than the 'am i crazy' one that crops up when you get into magic IRL, but the crucial difference is that you can address that one, and become stronger through resolving it. In contrast, resolving the 'this is not real' memehook would require a lot of energy for very little gain that I can see.

Yes, it's possible to create an imaginitive space through storytelling that's shared between the group. Yes, you can make magic in that space. But it's such a roundabout way of getting things done I can't think why one would use it. We already exist in a very solid, rich, shared space- to whit, planet earth- and we're getting very good at creating imaginitive spaces that also partake of RL- to whit, Barbelith.

These days I make very sure to keep a firm grip on my corporeal existence on the planet as well as the esoteric stuff: it's called having a foot in both worlds.

But whatever you wanna do...
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:20 / 18.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Flame On:


Yes, you can make magic in that space. But it's such a roundabout way of getting things done I can't think why one would use it.


As I said in my first post suggesting the experiment: To see if a hypersigil could be created using an RPG as the storytelling medium.

Not as a replacement for other magical techniques and not as an exercise in escapism but as an experiment on the validity of various methods of storytelling as magic. I'm currently experimenting and fine tuning the use of oral stories in shamanic healing as well as in group ceremonies.

Mythology has always been very powerful. Using it as a means of enchantment has been a method utilized in various cultures.

I consider experimenting with other forms of storytelling (written prose, verse, video, roleplaying, etc.) as valid experiments in finding the common elements between the various mediums. Also in finding what separates and makes each medium more or less effective.

Specifically, since this is a thread about fictionsuits, I'm hypothesizing that RPGs may be more suited for magic relating to various aspects of identity than other forms of storytelling. It may be the opposite though. That since RPGs are so blatantly about identity, they may be horribly suited for magic of that type.

But no one will know if no one tries it out.

quote:
These days I make very sure to keep a firm grip on my corporeal existence on the planet as well as the esoteric stuff: it's called having a foot in both worlds.


And... experimenting magically with techniques not normally associated or used for magic automatically relegates the magician to the realm of those that are not firmly grounded in 'real life'?

Are you sure your prejudices about RPGs aren't clouding your judgement on this one?

If I were able to participate in such an experiment and found that it didn't work then that would still give me experiencial data to help me form other experiments which would further fine tune what storytelling techniques I can use in my daily practice for healing and enchantment.

To me that's being responsible and furthering my skills in all the worlds. The ones between the theoretical and the practical as well as the physical and spiritual.

[ 18-12-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
Lothar Tuppan
13:35 / 18.12.01
quote:Originally posted by May Tricks:
Hey Lothar, How about your fictionsuit and my fictionsuit go back to my fictionplace and have a few fictiondrinks and a bit of fictionfun!

-May Tricks


Well, that would be fictioncheating and my real life partner would put a world of hurt on my fictionsuited ass. That kind of Karma I believe in.

And anyway, my whole schtick is that I don't wear a fictionsuit on the board. If my 'fictionsuit' left my body I'd be bleeding and oozing all over my computer.

(and to all the fictionsuit theory bitches out there: Yes! I realize we all wear fictionsuits and that reality is an illusion, blah blah blah. Try nailing your foot to the floor and then tell me reality is an illusion and that the identity screaming with the pain is just a 'fictionsuit.')

I must need more coffee, It's only 8:30 am and I'm ranting already.

[ 18-12-2001: Message edited by: Lothar Tuppan ]
 
 
cusm
17:18 / 18.12.01
Flame on,

You're spot on about RPGs taking you away from the real world. That's the point. Its like a controlled lab in which you can experiment with things in a safe way. It allows you to try things that might be dangerous in real life. Its magick in a box. How much of it you decide to let out is entirely up to you, and easy to control. No, its not as intense as doing it for real. Again, that's the point of it. However, you can do things with it you just can't in the fleshy world, which is also quite a tool for exploration.

Then there's this bit, what Lothar was getting at with shamanic storytelling: When we experience a reality, be it dream, story, conversation, movie, book, street mime, baseball card, or anything which causes us to construct an inner world and experience it, that reality is on some level treated as real by our confused psyche. So, if you RPG magical change and in the process learn things from it, you've still learned and thus changed. Magic is sneaky that way. Language is a virus, etc etc. That change might be from D&D that a Longsword +9 will kill an orc soundly. Or, it can be something like Kindred of the East, where your character advances as they gain enlightenment in a custom religion about transforming from a monster into a functional supernatural being.

The relevant bit to fictionsuiting, is that the process in RPGs of creating and developing a character can be applied to the construction, delination, control and use of a fiction suit in real life. Look at the process, not the variables, and see what you can take from it. Your User's Manual is already written. Its the char gen section of every White Wolf game to come out in the past 10 years. The important leap is, stepping away from the game and doing it for real.
 
 
Ayrkain Kaivar
19:13 / 18.12.01
quote:Originally posted by Flame On:


Just do it! </nike>

Yes, it's possible to create an imaginitive space through storytelling that's shared between the group. Yes, you can make magic in that space. But it's such a roundabout way of getting things done I can't think why one would use it.


I think that the bards and filid of Irish culture who originated the practice of satirising as a powerful form of cursing, and other storytelling magic would be very surprised to hear that they were just another form of fatbeard.
 
 
Papess
20:19 / 18.12.01
My sincerest apologies if I have offened your sensiblities, Lothar. I had forgotten that you do not use fictionsuits and perhaps I came off a bit tasteless. I simply meant to be playful. I hope you forgive my insensitivity to your situation. Friends?

My partner and I are very serious as well, but, very liberal. My suit of "May Tricks" gives me the opportunity to be a "the whore with a big heart" (at least that is how I see her).
I have used fiction suits to the point that they are all very much a part of me, but, should one die, there are more to come. My own "real" name is strangely... just another fictionsuit. Truly, I am nameless and formless or, of many names and many forms.

P.S:I forgot to include clueless (at times)

-May Tricks

[ 19-12-2001: Message edited by: May Tricks ]
 
  

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