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Stupid theory (or politics) questions

 
  

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Perfect Tommy
09:22 / 27.03.04
The reason that I am intimidated by theory is related to a remark about philosophy I heard once to the effect of "Socrates is philosophy; everything since is commentary." That is, I know that Foucault and Derrida would make for interesting reading, but since I am but a humble mathematician, I'm concerned I don't have the required historical, literary, and philosophical background for them to make any sense to me. What classical thought should I be well-versed in before I start reading about the folks who rip it to shreds for kicks?
 
 
Cat Chant
09:50 / 27.03.04
perfect tommy: the interesting critiques of classical philosophy - especially Derrida's (but then I would say that because I luuurrrve him) will contain enough primary-source quoting and references to the main scholarship in the field for you to follow the critiques without reading up on the original first.

I find my reading of Derrida is hampered by not knowing enough Heidegger, though. Personally, I think the best grounding/ preparatory reading for Derrida would be Heidegger, Kant, Husserl, Hegel and [less crucial] Nietzsche (or cheat sheets thereon), but I've never read any of those four.

On the other hand, I've also read almost no Plato, Freud, or Levi-Strauss and I'm swimming happily through Derrida's books/essays thereon.

Foucault, I don't know. I've only read The History of Sexuality.

The thing with most of the 'poststructuralist thinkers' (or whatever you want to call them) is that they do close readings of original philosophical texts in order to counter the sort of "pop Platonism" that informs a lot of Enlightenment/current Western thinking. So along the way they give an implicit or explicit account of (a) pop Platonism; (b) what Plato actually said; and (c) what they think of it all. You can think of Derrida's 'Plato's Pharmacy' as a sort of really, really in-depth and thought-provoking (rather than blag-aiding) Beginner's Guide to Plato, f'rex.
 
 
Tom Coates
12:49 / 27.03.04
Quick interjection for earlier interloper - psychoanalytic feminisms tended to concentrate on examining the psychoanalytic models of Freud and subsequent followers (not normally Jung) and developing extensions or critiques of those models. There's often an interest in the ways in which psychoanalysis structures difference between men and women based upon the recognition that women have universally been oppressed or subordinated and that not only has that been done to them but that it has been endemic to the very nature of womanhood. Post-structuralist (mostly French) feminists often wandered into psychoanalysis - particularly Cixous, Irigaray and another whose name momentarily escapes me. Juliet Mitchell - who had a more Marxist bent - wrote a book called "Psychoanalysis and Feminism" which concentrated on Marxist ways of deconstructing the family unit in ways that would avoid what she considered the inevitable acceptance of a woman's role that comes as a result of the Oedipus Conflict and the family romance.
 
 
Cat Chant
14:19 / 27.03.04
another whose name momentarily escapes me

Julia Kristeva, probably.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:30 / 27.03.04
Hoom. I think Ihave to disagree slightly with Deva here - knowing *something* about Plato is pretty much a must for following the strain of philosophy picked up by Heidegger and Derrida...

Hoom. I'd suggest having a crack at the Republic, which is complemented well by "An Introduction to Plato's 'Republic'" by Julia Annas - it's not too long, it's pretty easy reading and it contains a lot of the stuff that gets kicked around for some time since. It will also, which is tangentially very useful, give you some interesting positions on Christianity, but that's by the by at present.

I think you can probably skip Husserl, as any Heidegger study worth its salts will cover the important bits. If you want to cheat on Heidegger (and you woudl have to be a complete cocking psychopath to start your philosophical enquiries by reading Sein und Zeit), I recommend Michael Inwood's book in the Past Masters series. Inwood taught me, so I may be biased, but in general it's a clear and groovy piece. Less clear and groovy is Michael Tanner's "Nietzsche", but it does have the advantage of being brief, far briefer than most books you will find about Uncle Friedrich but longer than some of his actual books - it might be easier just to read the Genealogy of Morals and Beyond Good and Evil - they're great fun.

Or just dive in, of course, as Deva recommends, but those would be my recommendations as a kind of six-book crash course...

(Incidentally, what you heard was probably Alfred North Whitehead's aphorism that the safest characterisation of the Western philosophical tradition is as a series of footnotes to Plato. Because people tend to struggle with long aphorisms, this is usually shortened to "all philosophy is footnotes to Plato", thus leaving out the "safest characterisation" bit that strikes me as really quite key, as without it one does both Whitehead and philosophy a terrible disservice. Whitehead, by the way, was also a mathematician, so I wouldn't worry too much.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
09:20 / 28.03.04
I have had a crack at the Republic; it was in a too-easy community college course, however, so I'll give it, and the Introduction, another go-round. Thank you both for the grooviness recommendations and reassurances!
 
 
Rev. Orr
21:37 / 03.04.04
Being pathologically leftie - by which I genuinely have difficulty sometimes in seeing a logical position within the right-wing viewpoint - and also cursed from shortly after birth with a sarcastic tone of voice and turn of phrase, I have never found a forum in which to ask the following without coming across as a smart arse. That may well be true, but in the spirit of honest befuddlement, can anyone tell me what, exactly, is so great about market forces or more specifically, competition? Particulaly in terms of public or governmental services.

I can grasp that one can posit a bloated, self-serving public bureaucracy versus a lean, hungry private company providing the same service. My problem is that somewhere along the line, the model appears to be plucking money out of nowhere. If an authority or government is providing a service directly then they assume the cost burden of administering and managing the infrastructure operating and providing said service. However, passing that responsibility on to a third party fails to negate those costs. The only source a private company has, surely, to meet these overheads is to pass it on back to the government in its pricing of that service. Additionaly, a private or comercial entity bears a responsibility to create a profit for its shareholders or investors which in this model has to be lower than the total savings to the public body. If the only way to lower the service cost to the government or authority is to cut staff or quality levels, then surely these 'savings' end up having to be covered by society anyway rendering a paper saving into an overall loss? For example, if privitising waste collection in a borough results in the sacking of half the binmen, then isn't the saving to the council at least matched by the rise in benefits payments caused by this action?

Where it comes to projects such as the building of new hospitals, I can see why avoiding a large investment from government could offer a 'cash-flow' benefit, but in the long term, isn't it little more than a high rate loan?

Sadly, I have no grounding and little grasp of the economics behind all this, but I'd dearly like to know where this 'extra' money is supposed to be coming from. Thanks.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
13:32 / 04.04.04
another very stupid one, I'm afraid, but getting conflicting versions.

Is it most correct to refer to Patrick Califia as he or ze (am assuming she is out the window, but feel free to educate my ass) atm?
 
 
Mirror
19:23 / 04.04.04
Orr> I can speak to this one from having worked both in government and in the private sector.

In practice, there are two entities that may be involved in the answer to your question - the government, and the private contractor.

First, with respect to the government providing services: In my experience, most government employees are pretty useless, with the occasional exceptional group. The general conservative argument is that this uselessness arises from the fact the it's difficult to fire a government employee for unproductivity, incompetence, or just about anything else that would get you shoved out the door at a private company. In general, I think that this is true, based upon my experience.

I have found government contractors to be, in general, even more useless than regular government employees. The strategy of the average government contracting firm is to establish itself in a position where it will be able to suck the maximum amount of money from the public coffers for an unlimited period of time. This is usually done with a clever, two-pronged attack. First, the contractor requires that the contract be specified in minute detail. Since the individuals handing out the contract are often clueless, the contract that gets awarded inevitably specifies the production of a good or service that is not actually what is needed. The contractor then completes the job to the specifications in the quickest and most slipshod manner possible. When the government sees the finished product and says, "That's not what we wanted!" the contractor then points out that they fulfilled their end of the bargain according to the letter of the contract, and that it will cost a bunch of money to correct things. Correcting things of course means another contract, with the corrections specified in exacting detail. Wash, rinse, repeat. The second prong of the attack is that if the government attempts to change contractors, the new contractor who has to pick up the pieces left by the old on inevitably discovers what a mess things are and so throws everything out and starts from scratch. You can see where this is going.

The theory, which is usually espoused by those who are more familiar with ethical, or at the very least efficient public companies (as opposed to government contractors) is that most workers in the government are indeed so useless
that a private company can do the job so much cheaper and better that there are real cost savings. Unfortunately, since those people handing out the contracts are useless, and government contractors are fundamentally leeches, the whole system simply becomes a money-shuffling game for enriching lobbyists and their contractor clients at the public expense.

I don't know if a solution to this problem even exists. If there were some way to keep the unethical hogs from the public trough, there might be some hope, but I just don't see it. Being able to fire incompetent government workers would be a start.
 
 
Ex
07:52 / 05.04.04
Is it most correct to refer to Patrick Califia as he or ze (am assuming she is out the window, but feel free to educate my ass) atm?

The Official Website (www.patcalifia.com) goes with "he". I've read a transcribed conversation where he corrected "Pat" to "Patrick" but you rarely get referred to in the third person in a conversation between two people, so the pronouns didn't arise.

And he's got fibromyalgia, so send him cash for voice recognition software or the porn supply will dry up...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:02 / 05.04.04
Ex, thank you. And I knew about the fm, grim isn't it?

Can we change the title of this to Ask Uncle Ex?
 
 
grant
16:24 / 05.04.04
On the anyone tell me what, exactly, is so great about market forces or more specifically, competition? Particulaly in terms of public or governmental services.
question, in right-wing circles, you'll frequently hear comparisons to Darwin & "survival of the fittest" as a rationale for competition equaling efficiency.

There's a certain logic to it, but, as libertarians are fond of pointing out, a truly free market has only rarely been tried. At least, legally.
 
 
Jackie Susann
02:49 / 07.04.04
Does the concept of 'agency' (as in, Trekkies are not passive spectators of mass culture but exercise agency in their manipulation of signs etc etc) still have legs in cultural studies? Is there any credible, reasonably recent work on the concept, or did it die out?
 
 
diz
17:54 / 08.04.04
Does the concept of 'agency' (as in, Trekkies are not passive spectators of mass culture but exercise agency in their manipulation of signs etc etc) still have legs in cultural studies? Is there any credible, reasonably recent work on the concept, or did it die out?

i don't really have my finger on the pulse of cultural studies at this very moment, since i'm sort of marooned outside academia, but i think the concept definitely still has legs. most of the critiques of the idea want to grind it down to a very materialist, post-Marxist class struggle kind of illusion sold to us to make us feel better about being soulless proletarian drones and to stop us from achieving class consciousness, and in general i think taking any kind of line like that is hopelessly simplistic. i think there's a lot worth talking about as far as what agency entails, exactly, and that gets into sticky issues with power and identity formation and free will and so on and so forth, but it doesn't immediately strike me as a dead topic.
 
 
Jackie Susann
05:50 / 04.06.04
Thanks. Now another one, and I don't know if this is really the right place, but it came up reading theory (Ranciere's Disagreement, which I'm digging). Anyway, Ranciere talks a lot about the secession of the Roman plebeians on Aventine Hill, and I was wondering if anyone can sum that up for me quickly - i.e., what's a pleb, what's a patrician, and what was the gist of the dispute? That would be great.
 
 
statisticalpurposes
06:27 / 04.06.04
Question: What theories are there that are specifically related to the field of visual culture? As far as I know, it draws on many disciplines, like communications studies, cultural studies, and so on, but are there any theories that are theories of visual culture? Are there major thinkers in the area of visual culture, or does the field synthesize concepts and people from other areas?
 
 
grant
13:04 / 06.06.04
Y'know, I took a (nightmarish) class in grad school on this stuff specifically. It was 1992.

One of the texts was Techniques of the Observer, although I can't remember who wrote it. Oh, Oh, this is it. I used a book by Christian Metz on Lacanian film theory in a couple papers, too. Can't remember the title. These are more theory than culture, but might make a good leaping off point.
 
 
grant
13:06 / 06.06.04
You might be interested, also, in Greg Ulmer or James Twitchell and what they have to say about television, movies, wrestling and amusement parks.
 
 
Lord Morgue
11:14 / 07.06.04
O.K., O.K., I got one. I once read that the communist Russians used to put down the P.R.C., calling them "Margarine communists" or some such, and that the basic argument was that revolution has to come from the proletariat, not the peasants. My question is "UH?"
 
 
Cat Chant
11:30 / 07.06.04
LM - that sounds like fairly straightforward Marxism to me (cf Capital and probably the Communist Manifesto). Basically, a pre- or non-capitalist class (peasants) have not been sufficiently "proletarianized" by capitalism and thus can't start the revolution against capitalism (for instance, factory work and large-scale migration into cities brought large numbers of workers together in the same place at the same time, which was one of the necessary conditions for bringing about a workers' movement).

Crunchy - I really should know about the plebs and the patricians, but I don't, because I only really get interested in Rome after the Empire made the division into a nominal one only. Sorry. Haus might be able to help.
 
 
Lord Morgue
12:28 / 07.06.04
Whoulf! Damn, so you're saying according to Marx, the Chinese should have been made capitalists before they were communised? I guess that ties in with his thing about historical inevitability and communism as the end of an evolutionary process, but, um, DAMN! That is WACK!
 
 
Lord Morgue
12:34 / 07.06.04
So communism HAS to be a revolution? It has to be a reaction against capitalism? It's a reaction to something else? Shouldn't it be able to stand on it's own? Bugger me- politics is a fun headfuck- where have I been all this time? Oh yeah, watching old Kung Fu movies. Nevermind.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:49 / 07.06.04
OK, plebs and patricians...

The quick version, which is historically attested but probably not historically *accurate* is that the patricians were the noble families who took over the governance of Rome after the expulsion of Tarquinius Superbus (last king of Rome) in 509 BC. At that point, the patricians were the lawmakers, and the plebeians had citizen rights but no power to hold office - pretty feudal. However, the patricians were accused of misusuing this status, most tellingly by stripping citizens of their citizenship and selling them as slaves if they defaulted on loans. So, various measures to create a power bloc of plebs were enacted, including the concilium plebis (council of plebs), which won the right to make laws compelling the plebs (but not the patres) and the tribunes, who were apppointed to protect the citizens.

The key weapon for the plebs was the secessio - the act of deserting the city and refusing to participate in the affairs of Rome. Since many of the plebs were rural *anyway*, this isn't as crippling as it sounds, but it meant that the Senate could not effectively wage war or defend its borders. Bit of a problem. The first secession, I think, was meant to be in 494BC, when the tribunate was created and the plebs swore to kill anyone who harmed the tribunes in the performance of their duties, but the only one documented is 287BC, over debt relief for the hard-pressed farmers. This was solved by the plebeian Quintus Hortensius, who was elected Dictator (the lex Licinia, which took palce at some point in the 4th century, had made it a law that one of the two annually-elected tribunes must be a plebeian), and passed the lex Hortensia, which gave equality to the plebs and the patricians (meaning among other things that the concilium plebis' rulings were now binding on patricians also). Patricians still got to wear special clothes and hold certain priesthoods and certain other specialised roles, but in essence that was that, although the checks and balances thus established contributed to the paralysis of the Republic later...

Problem is, nobody is quite sure what plebs or patricians actually were. There are families identified as one or the other (the Claudii were patrician - when Claudius Pulcher stoop to be a tribune of the people, he had to abandon his patrician status and become Clodius; this is particularly interesting because there wasn't a patrician family in the time of the kings of Claudii - Claudius turned up and founded a patrician gens a little after the expulsion), but the names of plebeian families turn up in consular records before they are meant to have been allowed to stand, suggesting possibly that whole gentes were plebeianised, or that the distinction wasn't so clear, or that the whole story about the conflict of the orders is bollocks. But that probably doesn't matter for your purposes.

Is that any use, or do you need more? I can get to my books this evening...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:54 / 07.06.04
Lord Morgue - Just so. You need to have a bourgeois democratic revolution, which creates the industrialised space, gathers the proletariat, etc. The communists in Russia claimed that that was fulfilled by the short-lived administration of Prince Lvov, but they were sort of fooling themselves. Marx's model for revolution was the West of the industrial revolution, and in particular Britain. The communist parties in Asia more often played both on imperial resentments but also the resentments of farmers for landowners - Maoism, say, functioned fundamentally differently from Marxism-Leninism...
 
 
Lord Morgue
13:41 / 07.06.04
Hee, the plebs and patres sound a lot like Heinlein's Starship Troopers, where there were Citizens and Civilians, and only those who had seved in the military could vote, which is a pretty good way of ensureing only one kind of mindset gets the power, if you weed out all the liberals in boot camp. It's no question why Paul Verhoven stole all those shots from Leni Refenstahl's "Triumph of the Spirit" for his movie...
Trust a European to get the Yanks to flock in droves to cheer for a big-budget veiled insult. What was Mason's line on S.T. from the Invisibles? "And the ending! Of course the ultimate fascist state must be in a constant state of war!"
While we're at it, anyone remember that little bit of dialogue from Frank Miller's Robocop 2, where the Mayor has just realised that the OCP corperation is going to foreclose on Detroit, and squeals "What about democracy?",
and the Old Man says "You can buy a share in our company and vote, what could be more democratic than that?" ZING!
 
 
grant
18:28 / 07.06.04
Another thing about the Soviets and the Chinese is more rooted in real-world stuff than in political theory.

Stalin was kind of buddies with Chiang Kai Shek. See, China is a huge country which shares a loooong border with Russia. And when the Empire fell and Sun Yat Sen's followers tried to organize a new government, Chiang was actually hanging out in Moscow, seeing how they did things there. Mao was still a student.
So when the Nationalists and the Communists started battling for the country, Russia (under Stalin) was strangely non-commital... notionally, they supported the Communists, but they had much closer personal ties to the (nominally capitalist, but in reality available to the highest bidder) Nationalists.

Chiang's guys were formally given the boot in 1949... and while Mao tried hard to *emulate* Stalin in some ways, he was never able to get China industrialized (the Great Leap Forward was basically a failed Five Year Plan), and was never really buddy-buddy with the totalitarian to the northeast.
 
 
Jackie Susann
02:34 / 08.06.04
I want to bang on some more about the Russian revolution, but am slightly worried I am crossing over from answering a Stupid Theory Question to Starting A New Argument, and that maybe this should go in a new thread. If anyone is actually interested in sustaining the discussion, I think a new thread would be appropriate.

First Lord Morgue, So communism HAS to be a revolution? It has to be a reaction against capitalism? - kinda yeah, kinda no. There's significant anthropological/archaeological evidence that for most of the history of the human race, people lived under what's sometimes called 'primitive communism' - i.e., without class division or private property, etc. But Marx saw communism in any modern sense as emerging from the internal dynamics of capital - he defined communism, at one point, as 'the real movement that abolishes the present state of things'. This is the specific break Marx made with earlier ('utopian') socialists. Communism doesn't happen magically, its a material process. Most Marxists would say, roughly, it's not a 'reaction' to capital,. but the point of capital's self-destruction.

Haus, when you say You need to have a bourgeois democratic revolution, which creates the industrialised space, gathers the proletariat, etc. The communists in Russia claimed that that was fulfilled by the short-lived administration of Prince Lvov, but they were sort of fooling themselves - I think that both kinda understates the reasons Marxists believe communism follows capitalism, and is historically inaccurate as a description of hat the Russian communists (Bolsheviks, right?) thought. Lenin's break was specifically with the argument that you had to have a democratic revolution first - it's the whole point of the April theses, where he argues they shouldn't wait for a bourgeois revolution so they can make communism later. Trotsky's doctrine of 'combined and uneven development' means the same thing - society is not defined by a linear progression of stages, the so-called 'stages' co-exist in different ways in different societies. Who was it who claimed Prince Lvov achieved a democratic revolution prior to the Bolshevik one? I mean, my Russian revolutionary history is pretty shaky, but I suspect that is a later, Stalinist, position.
 
 
Lord Morgue
10:22 / 08.06.04
Eeh, I can see Communism as the natural counterforce to Capitalism, within a larger political metasystem like democracy, which is capable of bringing different systems to bear for different political and economic climates. But you could also see Capitalism as the unavoidable outcome of Communism worn out, as in Russia. Maybe it's not one or the other, but a cycle or rhythm, and only a self-governing system like democracy can acheive the changeover without bloodshed or disaster.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:41 / 08.06.04
I think that both kinda understates the reasons Marxists believe communism follows capitalism, and is historically inaccurate as a description of hat the Russian communists (Bolsheviks, right?) thought.

Right on the first count - I was simplifying - but I'm not so sure about the second count. Lenin says in State and Republic of the democratic republic:

For such a republic, without in the least abolishing the rule of capital, and, therefore, the oppression of the masses and the class struggle, inevitably leads to such an extension, development, unfolding and intensification of this class struggle that, as soon as it is possible to meet the fundamental interests of the oppressed masses, this possibility is realised inevitably and solely through the dictatorship of the proletariat, through the leadership of those masses by the proletariat

Lenin certainly represents the Lvov government as bourgeois:

This dual power is evident in the existence of two governments: one is the main, the real, the actual government of the bourgeoisie, the provisional government of Lvov and co which holds in its hands all the organs of power; the other is a supplementary and parallel government which holds no organs of state power

But whether it was borgeois democrat is a trickier question - it did not dismantle many of the aristocratic structures that were in place, but it *did* abolish the rule of the monarchy without abolishing the power of capital. However, the land was still largely feudally-held... of course, it didn't have a lot of time anyway. So, one could that the borgeois part was instituted by Lvov-Kerensky, and the democratic bit by Lenin subsequently... it's a debatable one, I think...
 
 
Cat Chant
11:47 / 08.06.04
[stern] New thread, people.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:54 / 23.06.04
I have a question which displays my ignorance:

I need to know about the Foucauldian idea of discourse. Which of Foucault's books should I read to find out about this? (I have never read any Foucault, but have used the word 'discourse' liberally in my academic work, and am concerned I might get caught out - not only ignorant, but entirely self-interested...)
 
 
Ex
18:33 / 24.06.04
The Archaeology of Knowledge (1972) makes my eyes bleed and my bravery go wavery. But I think it might be the most relevant and does have some of his most pertinent moments:

'no longer - treating discourses as groups of signs (signifying elements referring to contents or representations) but as practices that systematically form the objects of which they speak.' (49).

'It would certainly be a mistake to try to discover the truth about madness at a particular time by interrogating the being of madness itself, its secret content, its silent, self-enclosed truth; mental illness was constituted by all that was said in all the statements that named it, divided it up, described it, explained it, traced its developments, indicated it various correlations, judged it, and possibly gave it speech by articulating, in its name, discourses that were to be taken as its own.'(32)

He does a kind of negative description in Part II Chapt 2 of what the unity of various groups (medicine, economics, grammar) could be based on: it isn't their topics of enquiry, their 'form and type of connexion', their system of coherent concepts, or the persistance of themes. He whittles it down to the idea of 'dispersions' - 'Whenever one can describe, between a number of statements, such a system of dispersion, whenever, between objects, types of statement, concepts, or thematic choices, on can define a regularity (an order, correlations, positions and functionings, transformations), we will say, for the sake of convenience, that we are dealing with a discursive formation.' (38)

There's the big, crucial "nothing has any meaning outside of discourse" in there somewhere, but I can't find it.

Anyway, much more palatable and salacious is his description of the incitement to sexual discourse (Part Two, Chapter 1 of The History of Sexuality Vol. I: The Will to Knowledge). Go for that instead. But thanks for prompting me to excavate the stacks.
 
 
statisticalpurposes
21:46 / 24.06.04
Also check out the appendix to The Archaeology of Knowledge, (pp. 215-237 in the 1971 New York: Harper version), called "The order of discourse." It was first published in English in Social Science Information, April 1971, pp.7-30.

Apparently it makes the most sense in its original french.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
09:05 / 25.06.04
It's worth bearing in mind that 'discourse' in Foucault's work is quite a fluid concept. There is a noticable difference in the meaning of the term between the Archaelogy and The History of Sexuality for example, (I'm tempted to mark these as different periods but am restraining myself). I like 'the incitement to discourse' in HOS, myself. But in reality I recommend that you read:
Power/Knowledge: Selected Interviews and Other Writings, 1972-1977 ~ Michel Foucault -- (Paperback - December 1, 1980) - you can get this from the net for around 5-10 pounds. There are other interview and text anthologies around but this particular one remains oe of the most useful...
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:26 / 25.06.04
Okay, another ignorance-displaying question.

Who coined the phrase/came up with the idea of 'desiring machines'?

I'm associating it with D&G, but am pretty sure this is wrong.
 
  

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