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Stupid theory (or politics) questions

 
  

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Cat Chant
14:54 / 24.02.04
I love the "Stupid Science Questions" thread in the Laboratory, and I thought we should have one of our own.

I thought about putting it in the Switchboard, but I think the Switchboard one should be more "Stupid newsy questions" (ie "If the Bosnians are fighting the Serbs, who are the Bosnian Muslims?" a la Bridget Jones). There might be some active modding and some moving of posts needed.

My own feeling is that this should be a thread for humble supplicants seeking basic information about specific arguments and constellations of arguments from theoryalphabitches, and that if people want to engage in lengthy and/or heated debate over the questions raised, they should start a new thread. Eg:

POSTER 1: "Why does Judith Butler say that gender precedes sex?"

POSTER 2: "Well, she argues that..."

POSTER 3: "Not exactly. Allow me to clarify: ...."

POSTERS 1 & 2: "Thanks."

If someone else - let us call him Poster 4 - wants to jump in with "But that's obviously bollocks because the contents of my trousers - my own obvious bollocks - prove that I am a man", they should start a new thread.

(Obviously this will be subject to negotiation and my ideas are fluid suggestions not facist prescriptive dogma and blah blah blah.)

Okay, I'll start, and this is really embarrassing.

An important terrain of state power and resistance to same has always been bureaucracy (rebellions against Roman rule in Judaea tended to go and trash the admin offices). Obviously in an age of the internet telecommunications blah blah blah, specific technologies and techniques of information retrieval become very important in bureaucracy.

So, I sort of know that identity cards and the merging of government departments are a bad thing. I also know that the "I've got nothing to hide, go ahead and put all my data in one place" argument isn't great, because if the State suddenly decided to discriminate against a group to which you belonged you suddenly would have something to hide. But... what difference does it make, really, when the government makes its information retrieval procedures more efficient, so that all information about a single citizen is easily and quickly retrievable (presumably it is already retrievable, just not as easily and quickly)? Why are we resisting that? What are the arguments there?

[hides face in shame, runs away]
 
 
Papess
17:21 / 24.02.04
No need to hide Deva, I am sure that any question I have on politics or theory is going to be stupid regardless...so thanks for making a spot for my naivety here.

I have a question, (which I am not even quite sure how to phrase), about creating institutions around anti-establishment theories and doctrines, ie: an "Anarchist University" or "Discordian Government". For now, I suppose I would just like to be directed to some information on this type of subject matter if anyone knows of any, online or otherwise.

I apologize if this is not exactly what this thread is for, but the question is formulating as I type this. I just need some more background info to articulate my inquiry.

Thanks.
 
 
illmatic
09:32 / 25.02.04
Deva, thanks also. I'm hopelessly at sea with a lot of theory so a space to be stupid in a great help.

May - I don't know a great deal about actually decentralised institutions of government and so on, but you might find the free schools/free education movement - well, series of movements more like -of interest, 'specially as you have a nipper. Been discussed briefly on here before, if I get a chance I'll link the threads. A good starter whould be AS Neill's book "Summerhill". It's a lovely book, though a bit dated. Possibly it's written through Neill's rose tinted glasses, I dunno. Much more up to date an less idealistic would be David Griffiths "Real Education" which is an overview of a variety of different free schools around the world. Hope this is of interest. Don't know of many websites about this sort of thing, but if I get a chance - very busy today - I'll stick up some links.
 
 
Jub
12:56 / 25.02.04
Deva - first of all: good idea for a thread.

As for your question; I think I see what you're saying and shan't go off on one about the evilness of national ID cards, but to answer *what* is wrong with a centralised quick retreival system is similar in some respects - so bear with me.

The main threats to the public of such a centralised system are loss of civil liberties, loss of privacy and a continuation of the coersion employed to make the public comply with normality.

Once such a system is in place it will become increasingly difficult to get reverse. Not only this, but increasingly *easy* for the authorities to add more data and link more systems to it. (ie. well it's already in place this one-more-thing won't hurt). This functionality creep will only be averted by public disapproval. The government has been keen to show how everyone does indeed approve (helped by the popular press) when this is not the whole truth.

Having all the information possible to have on a certain individual is unnecessary in most cases. The government has claimed that it will cut down on benefit fraud for example. However, most benefit fraud is not ID fraud and would therefore be unaffected by such a scheme (eg. someone could still do cash in hand work and claim the dole).

Another major argument *for* a centralised scheme is that if you have nothing to hide, then what's the problem? This reasoning appeals to common sense but is flawed. For instance, having cameras in your home might deter your partner from commiting abuse, but no-one would suggest that it was a good idea to install them "just in case". Perhaps, simply, you are trying to hide something that is not illegal.

The most worrying thing though, is the power with which "normality" will be able to be enforced. Hierarchical observations will become easier to implement - this is already happening: immergent technologies track our reading habits etc, via the internet for example. Normalising judgements will become more sweeping - when the institutions involved can see this sort of information on you - and there will be little one can do to resist it by then.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:11 / 25.02.04
One thing worth saying about ID cards is that many european countries have them without, I think, substantially ill effects. Thats not to say that I favour them, but I think one's opposition should probably take account of the precise implementation.

Being able to collect dole money without huge cues and form filling, for instance, might be an advantage of certain ID cards that is harder to dismiss.
 
 
illmatic
14:06 / 25.02.04
Huge cues, Lurid? Was it really that threatening when you were signing on?
 
 
grant
19:11 / 25.02.04
But... what difference does it make, really, when the government makes its information retrieval procedures more efficient, so that all information about a single citizen is easily and quickly retrievable (presumably it is already retrievable, just not as easily and quickly)? Why are we resisting that? What are the arguments there?



I *know* Frances Farmer/Frances Cininnatus wrote a two-part zine article on encryption, why it should be used, how to use it -- but I've looked for the damn thing everywhere and can't find it. It touched on some of the arguments.

I imagine some folks see it as an extension of the gaze that Foucault talks about with Bentham's panopticon prisons. Others just don't think governments can get it right, so innocents will be punished for the crimes of the guilty.
 
 
Lurid Archive
21:23 / 25.02.04
Huge cues, Lurid?

I have a history of congenital cerebral flatulence and don't appreciate your intolerant attitude.
 
 
Jackie Susann
23:25 / 29.02.04
I have a properly stupid theory question - how do you pronounce Slavoj Zizek? I am pretty sure the 'z's are pronounced like the 's' in 'treasure', but what about Slavoj?
 
 
pointless and uncalled for
16:35 / 01.03.04
There is of course the very nessecary threat to freedom of anonymity. Right now we practice an elective freedom to not be identified without justification and that's identified to authorities. I can't think of a single proposed scheme of national identification whereby national authorities, such as police etc, are not allowed to automatically demand proof of identification without pretext above "checking you actually possess your own card or other token of identification".

It may seem like a rather thin liberty but an era of rising identity theft, technological crimes and simple mass personal intrusion it's a liberty that I would like to see remain a right.

Of course there is the variant proposal of optional identification mechanisms. Why have your pockets stufed with cash cards, credit cards, licences and so on when it could all very easily be put on one card? But I think that this is for a different thread to wrangle.
 
 
grant
18:40 / 01.03.04
how do you pronounce Slavoj Zizek?

I would *guess* "Slav-oy Zhi-zhek" to rhyme with "Slab boy, my check." That's just a guess.
 
 
grant
16:05 / 02.03.04
It's Slav-oy Zi-zhek, apparently. At least if I got the z's right.
 
 
trixr4kids
00:12 / 03.03.04
as long as i keep getting demands for 1p in unpaid council tax,my fears of a freedom crushing all encompassing government data tank would seem to be unfounded...christ ,they cant even get my surname right on the cover letter

the empire never ended,but luckily, its staffed by dole queue rejects
 
 
Sax
10:34 / 03.03.04
Question: When dealing with people who seem to have basic socialist principles but are dead-set against immigration, what arguments can convincingly win them over?

And on the ID issue... I confess to being on the same thought-lines as Deva, really. It seems to me that people know a hell of a lot about me without an ID card. I still get a bit of a shiver when Amazon recommends a book to me because they think I'll like it.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
12:42 / 03.03.04
"When dealing with people who seem to have basic socialist principles but are dead-set against immigration, what arguments can convincingly win them over?"

I think you may be talking about people who are part of trade unions, or influenced to a high degree by trade union ideology. (If there is such a thing.)

It all comes down to the interaction between movement of people and the labour market. One of the big arguments that surface against immigration is that these new foreigners will take away 'our jobs'. The logic extends that because people who migrate from non-'first-world' countries, they will be prepared to work under worse conditions for lower pay -- not only 'taking away jobs' from good deserving working folk who happened to be born in the UK or Australia, but also worsening the conditions of the labour market for everyone.

Admittedly, many countries use supplies of both legal and illegal migration to undercut the existing workforce and supply cheap labour. This is precisely why President Bush recently decided that it was wise to allow more migration from Mexico (even migration without papers): they can do it as long as they're prepared to get 'work permits' and work. Germany does it too, in fact has been doing it for a long time -- ie Gast-Arbeiter programs. (Guest workers, that means -- cheap supplies of labour from Turkey, mostly, to do shitwork.)

The problem is that many socialist or trade union movements are distinctly nationalist. It doesn't occur to them that in the era of globalisation, the smartest move for a union or a 'worker's movement' devoted to improving working conditions and pay would be to organise on a non-nationalist basis. Ie, international unions that fought for working conditions in all countries and ran campaigns that were specifically about targeting the economic imbalances between Mexico and the US, for instance, which would lessen the desire for Hispanic people to move north in search of, for them, better pay. (Even if their working conditions once they get to the US are considerably worse off than the working conditions for most American citizens.) Neither does it seem to occur to unions that fighting for the conditions of everyone -- legal and illegal migrants, especially -- might prevent corporations and the state from undercutting the labour market with cheap mobile labour. But unions (in Australia at least) have yet to come to terms with the ramifications of casualisation, as far as I can see, and are far from even considering the possibilities of demanding fair working conditions and pay for everyone.

That's probably only part of it, but you could try.

And I have opinions on the ID card thing, too. Again, it's about people movement, or part of it is. Centralising identity systems mean that the system can track you wherever you go. I don't want that...
 
 
Sax
13:21 / 03.03.04
However, we're also tracked wherever we go by bank and credit card usage, mobile phone usage, CCTV, swiping in and out of workplaces... it would be an interesting experiment for a TV show or newspaper to have someone try to move from Land's End to John O'Groats leaving a completely blank trail.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
04:52 / 04.03.04
True, but it would take more time and resources to co-ordinate all the different corporations and bureaucracies.
 
 
Cat Chant
09:41 / 04.03.04
Hmm. The thing with the centralized-ID-card/information-retrieval arguments seems to be that on one (admittedly very simplistic) level they're saying "It's okay for the govt/Amazon/banks/security systems to have all this information about me as long as they can't find it very easily". And on a pragmatic level I can see how that works, but I can't quite see the basis on which the argument's being made, if you see what I mean. It's about access to data rather than having the data... I nearly got it when Jub talked about functionality 'creep'. But maybe I should start an actual thread on this?
 
 
_pin
10:34 / 10.03.04
grant said: I imagine some folks see it as an extension of the gaze that Foucault talks about with Bentham's panopticon prisons. Others just don't think governments can get it right, so innocents will be punished for the crimes of the guilty.

Can I have the actual theoretical background to this (What is the gaze that Foucault talks about? What are Bentham's panoptican prisons?), bearing in mind that I don't really know anything about either of them (Foucault said 'power' and Bentham liked pubs, basically).

Also, as deailted as possible descriptions of the dieas of every wave of Feminism, including Post-feminism, complete with a chronological breakdown and celebrity-worshipping identification of the main people in each group. Please?
 
 
Grey Area
10:46 / 10.03.04
Panopticon prison:
"The building of prisons also aroused the interest of the great British legal and social reformer, Jeremy Bentham, and he worked out a plan for a circular prison with outside cells which became famous in history under the name of the "Panopticon," or "inspection-house," because of the ease with which the whole institution could be observed from a central position within. Bentham derived the idea from the plan of a factory designed for easy supervision. He first outlined his architectural plan in 1791."

From here: http://www.notfrisco.com/prisonhistory/origins/origins02.html

Foucault's 'Gaze':
" If you are too violent, you risk provoking revolts...In contrast to that you have the system of surveillance, which on the contrary involves very little expense. There is no need for arms, physical violence, material constraints. Just a gaze. An inspecting gaze, a gaze which each individual under its weight will end by interiorisation to the point that he is his own overseer, each individual thus exercizing this surveillance over, and against, himself. A superb formula: power exercised continuously and for what turns out to be minimal cost."

From here: http://foucault.info/documents/foucault.eyeOfPower.en.html
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:00 / 10.03.04
Okay - the panopticon is a form of prison proposed by Bentham. Essentially, it's a ring of cells, with a warder in the middle in a tower. The setup is designed so that the warder can look at any cell at any time, while the prisoners only know the warder is observing them if he addresses them. On a pragmatic level, this makes it easy to notice when something rum is happening. On a more theoretical level, it means that the prisoners behave, because they never knew whether and when they were being observed.

Foucault (in Discpline and Punish, which I maintain should be the title of a monthly magazine) takes the idea of the panopticon as a progression of the idea of the state taking over rtesponsibility for punishment (that is, in the olden days you were punished by the families of the person you had injured, then by the King, then by a state apparatus working with the approval of the King (the Crown Prosecution Service, Mer Majesty's Prisons), and so on - in each case removing the idea of punishment from the idea of the specific offence and its impact on the injured party. So, the panopticon for Foucault is a mtaphor for the imminence and immanence of observation - the point being that you never know when the state is observing you, but you always have to behave as if it is, because it might be.

From Discipline and Punish:

Hence the major effect of the Panopticon: to induce in the inmate a state of conscious and permanent visibility that assures the automatic functioning of power. So to arrange things that the surveillance is permanent in its effects, even if it is discontinuous in its action; that the perfection of power should tend to render its actual exercise unnecessary; that this architectural apparatus should be a machine for creating and sustaining a power relation independent of the person who exercises it; in short, that the inmates should be caught up in a power situation of which they are themselves the bearers. To achieve this, it is at once too much and too little that the prisoner should be constantly observed by an inspector: too little, for what matters is that he knows himself to be observed; too much, because he has no need in fact of being so. In view of this, Bentham laid down the principle that power should be visible and unverifiable. Visible: the inmate will constantly have before his eyes the tall outline of the central tower from which he is spied upon. Unverifiable: the inmate must never know whether he is being looked at at any one moment; but he must be sure that he may always be so. In order to make the presence or absence of the inspector unverifiable, so that the prisoners, in their cells, cannot even see a shadow, Bentham envisaged not only venetian blinds on the windows of the central observation hall, but, on the inside, partitions that intersected the hall at right angles and, in order to pass from one quarter to the other, not doors but zig-zag openings; for the slightest noise, a gleam of light, a brightness in a half-opened door would betray the presence of the guardian. The Panopticon is a machine for dissociating the see/being seen dyad: in the peripheric ring, one is totally seen, without ever seeing; in the central tower, one sees everything without ever being seen.

Bentham's original panopticon proposition can be found here.
 
 
Ex
11:46 / 10.03.04
Also, as deailted as possible descriptions of the dieas of every wave of Feminism, including Post-feminism, complete with a chronological breakdown and celebrity-worshipping identification of the main people in each group. Please?

Are you taking the biscuit, sunshine? OK, you get ten minutes cut and pasting to warm up my fingers...

All these are subject to the caveat that different people hold opinions from different strains of feminist thought, that lumping everything into little chronological chunks is silly, and that I’m very biased.

Liberal feminism (first wave) - from Wollstonecraft onwards, but really kicking off about 1848 (Seneca Falls convention in US) and reaching nice climax 1905-1914 in UK with suffragettes.
Basic principles: society has false beliefs about women’s capabilities, women have been excluded from academy, forum, marketplace. Need to get educational and the enforcement of civil rights for women, then we can leave them to get on with it in the same way men do now.
Lots of issues about women’s access to the ”public sphere” addressed. Aims to advance women within society.
Icon: Mary Wollstonecraft (big on Reason), Betty Freidan (big on housewives)
Problems: Helps women into competitive liberal society, doesn’t address the injustices of that system. “Gender justice does not require us to give the losers as well as the winners a prize”(Rosemary Tong Feminist Thought: A Comprehensive Introduction) Doesn’t tend to involve a reassessment of the values of society, and the relation of society, the self and the state.
Assumes “neutral” (some would say male-centred) values are good, doesn’t rethink things like individuality v community, competition v altruism, rationality v emotion.
Tends to focus on white middle-class women in industrialised countries.
Key words: Equality, rights, a piece of the pie. Mmm, pie.

Radical feminism (second wave) - Mid 1960s onwards (Feminine Mystique published 1963)
Growing out of left-wing politics, but rejecting the idea that working for gender equality divides the Movement, and that all struggle is class struggle.
Based on idea that sexism is the fundamental oppression. In Lib Fem, there is no direct causal connection between men doing well and women doing badly - it is a flaw in an otherwise good societal model (liberal democracy). In Rad Fem, there is a direct causal connection between the oppression of women and the privilege of men.
This leads to other shifts in perception: e.g. can institutions such as the law, or “science”, or “experts” be used to right gender oppression, or are they inherently misogynistic? Can women be advanced within society or does society need drastically reorganising?
Keeping up the “public sphere” work but also a lot of “private sphere” issues (sex, sexual assault, reproduction) considered: the slogan “The Personal is Political” is very popular.
Key words: Oppression, liberation, patriarchy, consciousness raising.
Icons: Kate Millet, Germaine Greer, Susan Brownmiller

Black feminism - concurrent with second wave
Disagreeing with premise that sexism trumps all other oppressions. Critiquing previous feminist movements for their erasure of black women’s experience by concentrating on white middle class women’s lives as though they represented all women. Trying to expand focus of feminist activism from this focus to issues relevant to black community - for example, not just abortion rights but forced sterilisation abuse.
Demonstrating how race (and often class) intersects with gender to produce effects which can’t be explained by a simplistic understanding of “patriarchy”.
Icons: bell hooks, Sojourner Truth, Angela Davies

Lesbian Feminism - 1970s
Using sex between women as a start-point to critique heterosexuality as a form of enforced control for the majority of women.
Icons: Adrienne Rich, radicalesbians
Key words: lesbian continuum (Rich), woman-identified woman

Post-structuralist feminism - 1990s (Gender Trouble published 1990)
Arguing that gender is not something one is but something one does; a series of performative gestures.
Stating that gender is discursively produced; i.e. created by the very sets of meanings (medical, legal, philosophical, psychoanalytic) which aim to investigate and explain it. It has NO PREDISCURSIVE EXISTENCE. Ohhh, getting excited now.
Showing how gender intersects with race, class, other sets of meanings and has no coherent identity. Looking at local manifestations rather than global metanarratives.
Icons: Judith Butler and cohorts

Post-feminism - when it happens depends on how you define it
Has been variously described as: a third-wave feminism inflected by all the above, people arguing that second-wave feminism was dour, joyless and unsexy (without having been there or read any of it), people who believe that feminism has gone too far.

I didn’t do Marxist Feminism, psychoanalytic feminism, or cultural feminism.

How detailed is “as detailed as possible”, any way? I am suspicious and will only be pacified by cake. Or pie.
 
 
invisible_al
12:55 / 10.03.04
Ok just a quicky here, what does Praxis mean? From context I think it's personal change/movement but I'm really not sure.
 
 
Grey Area
13:00 / 10.03.04
Main Entry: prax·is
Pronunciation: 'prak-s&s
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural prax·es /-"sEz/
Etymology: Medieval Latin, from Greek, doing, action, from prassein to do, practice -- more at PRACTICAL
: ACTION, PRACTICE: as a : exercise or practice of an art, science, or skill b : customary practice or conduct
 
 
Cat Chant
13:25 / 10.03.04
I've always understood 'praxis' as, sort of, the synthesis of the thesis/antithesis pair 'theory/practice'. So a practice that isn't determined in advance by a theory, but also that isn't completely opposed to theory. 'Theorified practice', maybe, to be Barthesian or 'the becoming-practice of theory' to be Deleuzian?
 
 
diz
13:27 / 10.03.04
i've got a bunch of non-sequential thoughts regarding Deva's question:

- cross-referencing: part of the problem with centralizing databases is that it dramatically increases the amount of information available to the authority figures in question, because a big database composed of two cross-referenced sources of data is often more than the sum of its parts. taking data x (say, credit card records) and combining it with data y (say, library records) doesn't give you X + y so much as it gives you xy, because the two can be cross-referenced and patterns emerge which wouldn't be visible looking at either source on its own. centralizing databases allows whomever has control of the combined database to run searches like "find me everyone with bad credit who also graduated in the top third of hir class at an American university and also reads French novels," which radically changes the amount of information you have available and the types of things which become visible to the gaze.

- the Panopticon and self-censorship: the power of the Panopticon is that the observation deck doesn't even need to be occupied because the sense of possibly being subjected to the authoritative gaze is enough to change behavior, because, you know, just in case someone's watching... one could take this further and say that the actual Panopticon, the tangible presence of the state and its power apparatus can and does disappear and that the simulacrum of the State is all that remains.

a big problem with self-censorship is that it's almost totally invisible - you have no idea what someone might have said or done if they perceived circumstances differently. it has a chilling effect on openness and expression but that chilling effect is without a precise location, and can't really be pinned down, because of this.

Hakim Bey has a lot to say about this, actually, seeing the necessary answer to this being a sort of inner liberation, in some senses inoculating yourself against the fear of the omnipresent invisible gaze, realizing that it is an illusion, and consequently that anywhere not directly being controlled by the actual physical power of the state is already as liberated as you can visualize it being. however, it's really easy to dismiss that whole school of thought as a sort of "lifestyle anarchism" which amounts to nothing more than self-important bohemianism largely practical only for the priveleged leisure class.

- the Transparent Society: i must confess that i still haven't read David Brin's The Transparent Society, but from what i understand he argues that universal surveillance is a sort of technological and cultural inevitability and that privacy, as we know it, is already doomed. the real choice, as he presents it, is the question of who will have access to all this information being gathered. he basically breaks it down into two possibilities. one is that it will only be available to a state/corporate security elite, who will covertly monitor everyone else and keep the data to themselves, which is essentially the Big Brother future. the other is that information is gathered from all directions at all times, but very openly, and the information so gathered will be available to the public, which means that everyone will be being watched, but no one will be able to act on that information covertly without being observed themselves, hence creating a sort of weird freedom-without-privacy situation. consequently, we're aiming at the wrong target when we try to keep cameras out of our lives, and instead we should be focused on trying to gain access to the monitor room.
 
 
Cat Chant
16:25 / 15.03.04
Not all that stupid, but a closed question:

Judith Butler once said something very like "I am happy to appear under the sign lesbian as long as it is permanently unclear what that sign might mean." I quote this a lot, and have now been taken up on it by someone: does anyone know where she said it? (Yes, I'm looking at you, Ex...)
 
 
Cat Chant
16:26 / 15.03.04
taking data x (say, credit card records) and combining it with data y (say, library records) doesn't give you X + y so much as it gives you xy, because the two can be cross-referenced and patterns emerge which wouldn't be visible looking at either source on its own

A-hah! [lightbulb goes on over Deva's head] That's brilliant. Thank you.
 
 
Ex
17:07 / 15.03.04
"This is not to say that I will not appear at political occasions under the sign of lesbian, but that I would like to have it permenantly unclear what precisely that sign signifies."

"Immitation and Gender Insubordination" - originally published in Inside/Out ed. Diane Fuss but reprinted in the Routledge Lesbian and Gay Studies Reader - quote on p308.
Any spelling errors my own.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
18:03 / 15.03.04
great thread. and Ex's descriptions are fab, am going to be printing those out and handing them out, the next time someone asks me what feminism it/makes dumb comments about it.

Dunno if this needs pointing out, but much like the relationship of modernity and postmodernity, the 'phases' of feminism don't neccessarily replace the ones before in a singular linear process. Eg there are many feminist contexts where the Butlerian type is still criticised/discredited.

I'm thinking for example, of Seyla Benhabib and Judith Butler's essays in Feminist Contentions: a philosophical exchange, ed Benhabib, Butler, Nancy Fraser and Drucilla Cornell.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
09:21 / 16.03.04
taking data x (say, credit card records) and combining it with data y (say, library records) doesn't give you X + y so much as it gives you xy, because the two can be cross-referenced and patterns emerge which wouldn't be visible looking at either source on its own

So, contextually:

Obviously, the people pushing paper around for the administration in Nazi Germany would have killed to have had access to a cross-referencing system of identifying features and "anyone who falls into a semitic group". Perhaps worrying about such things could be conceived as paranoid in this day and age, but... I'm sure that post-9/11, the US/UK governments would drool over the idea of a piece of paper listing "anyone Muslim who happens to have been to flying school". And I don't think it's unreasonable to say they'd probably find other such rather nasty uses for such information, too...

On a more personal level:

My doctor, arguably, has the right to know with what anatomy I was born. She also perhaps may have reason to know my sexuality. Social Services, however, do not. Nor does the Inland Revenue. Nor do any dodgy organisations that might have some level of access to linked databases which include extracts from my medical records. If I hadn't gone under a "transitional" name for a while before changing my name legally, anyone who ran a credit check on me would have access to my birthname. Which would have been a lot of fun when sat in front of someone busy going through my whole credit record for anything relevant to me (a process I had to go through reasonably recently): "Oh, so you used to be known by..."

Gah.

Despite the government spouting on about equal opportunities regardless of anythingwhatsoever, it's ****. I wouldn't believe for a second that people wouldn't be discriminated against all over the place if information about Every Little Aspect Of Their Lives was freely available.
 
 
Cat Chant
17:51 / 16.03.04
What's a natural language?

(Ex, you are a goddess. Half an hour from question to answer. With page reference.)
 
 
Ex
16:52 / 17.03.04
Me, Miss, Please, Miss!
Can any librarians, archivists or information scientists tell me five hott words from the bleeding edge of the discipline (info science, philosophy of knowledge storage, cool shit archive theory) so I can drop them into an interview on Friday?
I know this isn't so much a stupid question as an attempt to blag expertise, but there wasn't a "Barbells scrounge knowledge rightfully belonging to others" thread.
 
 
Lurid Archive
17:47 / 17.03.04
What is a natural language?

As someone interested in formal languages, I thought that natural languages referred to languages people use or have used. Like Spanish, Latin and the various sign languages (I think). This is opposed to things like computer languages. I'm not sure where a constructed language intended for use, like Esperanto, would lie. I'd guess it was natural. Maybe.

I didn't quite get the relevance in the post linked to, though.
 
 
Grand Panjandrum of the Pointless
19:43 / 17.03.04
In practical terms I would define a natural language is any language spoken (or signed) by humans. Sign languages are included because though they were originally artificial, their grammar has been developed+ altered by a human speech community in ways that show affinities to spoken languages. There is at least one famous case of a sign-language pidgin creolizing in exactly the same way that a spoken language would (Nicuraguan Sign Language). Artificial human languages like Esperanto or Quenya are a more difficult case. Strictly speaking, they aren't natural because someone made them up. Also they tend not to have populations of native speakers. But personally I would call them natural because they tend to copy most of their grammar from pre-existing natural languages, although they neaten up some stuff, like irregular verbs.
In terms of generative grammar (i.e. Chomsky+ followers+ some of the people who used to be followers) the basic criterion for a human natural language is that the language has to be derived from Universal Grammar- the set of innate principles and parameters that enable a child to learn the syntactic structures of its native language.
If there were any other species in the world that had reasonably complex linguistic systems of their own, these systems would be natural languages too, even if they bore no relationship to human languages. However, there don't appear to be any, notwithstanding the best attempts of a lot of chimpanzee trainers to prove otherwise.
To count as a language, (in the eyes of linguists) a language has to display a certain level of complexity. It has to have recursive combinatorial structure, so anyone possessing the semantics and the syntax can create entirely new sentences that have never been formed before by combining elements in new orders and embedding phrases in other phrases, potentially ad infinitum- this is called the discrete infinity of natural language. (the cat ate the mouse in the hat in the hall in the house. . .) No non-human sign system in the natural world has capability remotely close to this.
 
  

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