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New X-Men #154

 
  

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tituba
10:01 / 05.04.04
Now, now, BeeZus. In The Morrisson we trust, remember. No use in turning against the captain of this ship now. Bizarre analogy though.

P.S. Thanks for the xplain, rawkusboi. Now I know...
 
 
advancedplastics
13:21 / 05.04.04
i too was a little confused about the Weapon X, Weapon Plus, etc., for a while, but what do you expect? these are ultr4-s3kr3t organizations armed with mind-chaff...

but seriously, i think that Morrison does more than a decent job of dealing with past continuity while developing his own ideas.

As far as the Weapon X project (which developed, among other things, Weapon 10, James "Wolverine" Logan) and the various people involved, like Sabretooth and Deadpool, you can find inf0 about that by searching w/ google. and as far as all that goes, including any bad writing or dorky characters (maverick), we can't really blame morrison, as he didnt write any of it.

however, The Weapon Plus project, i believe, is all GM (i don't think it was pushed by the editors in any way, i mean). cleverly, though, morrison describes Weapon Plus (kinda like C++) as being an offshoot of Weapon X (like rawkusboi sez). i dont recall any real details being given, but it sounds like weapon+ was started by some people that had previously worked on weaponx, based on similar research, maybe had similar funding, etc. since weapon+ has only some of the ancestral traits of the weaponx project, the charcters needn't be totally congruent.

SO, what i'm saying is that morrison covers his ass pretty well, and that the writing works.
 
 
I'm Rick Jones, bitch
14:18 / 05.04.04
Weapon XI= Bannermen from Marvel Boy
 
 
Spaniel
16:48 / 05.04.04
the reason why Sublime choose Beast as his carrier host is for the soul reason that Hank is mutant perfection incarnate albeit the occasional bouts of killer dandruff. He is brilliant in the head and quite strong in the muscle region. He's superior to most of his X-colleagues in almost every way. The smartest and the strongest all rolled up in one convenient, fuzzy, blue package, just waiting to be jacked.

I hope this is supposed to be comic.
 
 
advancedplastics
19:20 / 05.04.04
btw, i vote for /whitehotroom
 
 
thirty/thirty
06:29 / 06.04.04
No that isn't comic at all. If you were looking for a mutant host, wouldn't you pick the one that's physically stronger and smarter than the rest.

In regards to the Weapon X debacle, I think the point was that, if Logan was Weapon Ten then there would have been a Weapon Nine and Eight and so on before him. Who were they? You can't just make it Ten because a roman ten happens to look like an X. I understand that the program that created Wolverine was called Weapon X, but Logan himself was called Weapon X (or Ten). Who was his predecessor? If any one know the correct Weapon whaver allocation and the order in which they were created, could you please list it? I think it would solve a lot of confusion...
 
 
Tom Coates
07:43 / 06.04.04
Basically I think we're supposed to understand that the Weapon Plus programme is the one that goes right back to Captain America, and that the project forked around the time of Wolverine leaving the original over-arching Weapon Plus programme that pushed off into hybridising and time-distorting evolutionary technology and a new parallel Weapon X that concentrated on the kind of experiments that created Wolverine and runs to this day.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
08:24 / 06.04.04
If you think of the Weapon Plus program (one through to fifteen) as a supersoldier program first and foremost it makes it easier.

There's a thread no here somewhere that breaks down each version and gives possibilities as to who they could be (Cap 'Merica, animals, wolverine, fantomex etc etc)

The supersentinal slant comes in around Weapon Ten, which is why Wolverine is so distraught. He was created to kill his own kind.
 
 
Dan Fish - @Fish1k
08:35 / 06.04.04
I kind of liked the succinct symmetry of atom/bomb, but it looks like /whitehotroom is in the lead. Of course, this all depends on Tom allowing the webspace!
 
 
Spaniel
17:41 / 06.04.04
No that isn't comic at all. If you were looking for a mutant host, wouldn't you pick the one that's physically stronger and smarter than the rest.

The problem here is that we're dealing with personal preferences. We could argue all year about who would be the best candidate for possession/fusion. I'm sure everyone would have their favourites, and a lot of good points would be made on all sides, and it would go on, and on, and on, and...

Or we could go with Diz's eloquent deconstruction - a deconstruction that would seem to fit with Morrison's way of doing business.
 
 
diz
19:20 / 06.04.04
I kind of liked the succinct symmetry of atom/bomb, but it looks like /whitehotroom is in the lead. Of course, this all depends on Tom allowing the webspace!

either one would be hot for me. there endeth my $0.02.

i think we should definitely find some way to make this happen. sadly, i have the organizational skills of a spastic ferret. it's a miracle i manage to get the rent check in to the right place every month, so i would probably not be much help getting webspace organized and such.

however, i would be more than happy to contribute essays or notes or whatever if such would be welcome. would would we be more interested in focusing on an issue-by-issue, frame-by-frame annotation or on a collection of essays about theme, tone, controversial issues, etc? some mix of both?

my general feeling is that annotations can be very helpful in some cases, mind-numbingly boring, repetitive, and obvious in others. look at Anarchy for the Masses: great in some respects, but if i saw the notation "Another reference to life as fiction" one more time i was going to set the book on fire.
 
 
■
22:10 / 06.04.04
"Life as a film is a recurring theme." Yaaaaaaaargh.
I was intially going to vote for a frame by frame, but theme might be better in the light of this. As long as we were damn careful, FBF might be OK, though.
 
 
advancedplastics
23:04 / 06.04.04
BB sez:


In regards to the Weapon X debacle, I think the point was that, if Logan was Weapon Ten then there would have been a Weapon Nine and Eight and so on before him. Who were they? You can't just make it Ten because a roman ten happens to look like an X. I understand that the program that created Wolverine was called Weapon X, but Logan himself was called Weapon X (or Ten). Who was his predecessor? If any one know the correct Weapon whaver allocation and the order in which they were created, could you please list it? I think it would solve a lot of confusion...



b33z: as has been stated earlier, the Weapon Plus program emerged, in part, from the Weapon X project. as such, whatever it is that they do needn't make total sense from a weaponx point of view. weapon+ is like a weird future species when compared.
you say that your point is that making x==10 is stupid, just convenient writing. maybe it is a little convenient, but more in the way that inspires/cultivates good writing and contributing to the richness of the marvel universe.
at no point did anyone say that there weren't weapons 9,8,7... we just haven't been told who they were. as someone else said, theres a thread somewhere, and i know that there are a couople of webpages out there, that are all about the weapon projects, their histories and their products. most of it hasn't been established, but theres some interesting speculation.
in the end though, pls understand that there have been a lot of writers/editors/etc that have been playing with these ideas, some retconning going on and some mistakes in writing have prolly been made over the many many years (arguably, the whole things spans from whenever Captain America's modern origin was revealed to the present day, and will continue far into the future). and moreover, its just a comic! enjoy it!
 
 
advancedplastics
01:14 / 07.04.04
rawkusboi said:
The supersentinal slant comes in around Weapon Ten, which is why Wolverine is so distraught. He was created to kill his own kind.

rawkusboi: i agree w/ you, but i think GM may have left in a loophole: Fantomex tells Cyclops that the Weapon+ program made backup copies of the WeaponX files, including Wolvie's, before they branched off. couldnt it be posible that the 'backup' was doctored or fabricated to fuck w/ wolverine? maybe that is unnecessary, and perhaps unintentional, but it seems that it could still be left open.

i missed the threads that discussed the whole consipratorial web (Sublime-Weapon Plus-Magneto-etc), so i will check them out, but maybe someone could help explain the details of the Weapon+ attack/setup.
thanks!
 
 
onorthocrasi
01:41 / 07.04.04
i would like to put in my vote for whitehotroom as well
 
 
thirty/thirty
11:03 / 07.04.04
Boiled-down-question: If Wolverine is Weapon X/Ten then Weapon "letter/number what" is Silver Fox or Sabretooth?
 
 
Mario
11:20 / 07.04.04
Draft versions.

Weapon 1 was the Super Soldier Project. It was never designed to be unique, but only became so after the death of the guy who invented the serum.

Similarily, Weapon X wasn't a person...it was a PROGRAM. Wolverine was merely the ultimate product. You'll note the new version also follows this model.

In the case of Weapon Plus, they had 6 programs running in parallel, with the overarching goal of a Hollywoodized "superteam" of soldiers.
 
 
Quimper
14:01 / 07.04.04
It was my understanding that the Weapon Ten program begat the Weapon X program. It's always been Weapon Plus. But, with Ten, their main subject (Logan) escaped, so the program diverged and Weapon X used the new technology of memory implants and tried to recreate the savage killing machine with Sabretooth et al.

Weapon 0 was the guy from the Truth.

Weapon 1 was Captain America.

Weapons 2-8 were animals, and people (i think esp. minorities)

Weapon 9 was Nuke.

Weapon 10 was Wolverine, but he escaped so the Weapon X trials began

Weapon 11 was ? (I like both Cassie, and I'd even buy the Bannermen from Marvel Boy)

And we know the rest.

I do agree with these numbers being programs and not people. It's as if each numbered Weapon was a series of trials to create the archetype character WP wanted to comprise the team.
 
 
Aertho
14:19 / 07.04.04
That's how I took it too. Super Soldier Weapon Programmes were largely secret and used only slightly until the successes of Weapon X/Ten. Weapon X/Ten turned out to be SUCH a success that it gained its own funding and generated a bevy of super-warriors, including Sabretooth, Silver Fox, Mastodon, Wolverine, Maverick... etc.

Weapon X continues to this day by amassing mutants to do dirty black ops.

Weapon Plus forked left of the successes of the tenth weapon programme and built The World in Britain. And the Bannermen don't fit the pattern GM was using. Only Cassie does. That makes her Weapon XI, and also... it's what makes Xorneto Weapon XVI.
 
 
advancedplastics
14:53 / 07.04.04
Chad sez:
That makes her Weapon XI, and also... it's what makes Xorneto Weapon XVI.

hey Chad - do you mean that figuratively? do you mean that Cassie *fits the specs* of Weapon XI, or that she could *actually be* Weapon XI?

(that doesnt seem right to me, as i've been imagining cassie as a big feeder-creature, sent back from the future, but i dunno)

thanks!
 
 
Quimper
14:58 / 07.04.04
I'll take Cassie over the Bannermen as Weapon XI, since I'm sure it was originally said in jest anyway. Cassie fits the specs, true. I'm simply getting carried away in the thought of GM carving out his own MU. Hell, I was waiting for Fanny and Jack to appear in NXM for three years, fanboy wanking.
 
 
Quimper
15:05 / 07.04.04
Additionally, I don't agree with the Cassie is a Feeder from the Future thread. We saw no indication of time travel anywhere in GM's run save Jean's existence in the world beyond time. The parallel between Cassie and the Feeders is 'eating thoughts.' But this was a reoccurring theme in NXM. Since telepathy was the ultimate weapon in the run, there had to be a counterbalance to it. Not being able to think was the ultimate counterweapon against the ulitmate weapon. Cassie, Feeders, Martha's psycho-chaff and alzheimers disease all 'ate thoughts,' GM cool, sinister way of saying 'ha ha you can't think now.'
 
 
Keith, like a scientist
15:55 / 07.04.04
I don't understand the Xorneto = Weapon XVI thing. How is this even remotely possible?

Are you positing that Magneto was taken by Weapon Plus, given the Xorn persona and repackaged as Weapon XVI? With no experimentation beyond memory messing...

Seems pretty far-fetched.
 
 
Aertho
15:59 / 07.04.04
Since I used to be Chesed, I'm not going to get into the whole vMeme discourse... I'm just going to make to look at old threads and run a find on "vmeme". NXM has been about Evolution and learning, and GM forcedthe X-Men into conflict with different evolved mentalities, like Cassie, Huntsman, Ultimaton.

Cassie was the ultimate conqueror mindset as "evil foe". It's pretty low on the totem pole and one of the first enemies the NXM face. (The first was a Sentinel on the Australian coast.)

The Bannermen are more evolved - and representative of authority and autonomy in action. Since the other Weapons, Wolvie included, match EXACTLY with corresponding vMemes, Bannermen are out, and Cassie is in. There's a reason we're never told anything about Weapon Eleven, becasue that wouldn't be this much fun to figure out.

The Xorn role played by Magneto can be seen as a clever ruse engineered by quadruple-crossing Sublime agents into forcing the X-Men into facing an enemy that looks exactly like their most trusted friend. The Xorn character himself even matches a vMeme, the one following XV:Ultimaton. Whether or not he was codenamed an ACTUAL Weapon Plus agent is irrelevent to me at this point. The "Weapons" are all vMemes that attack the X-Men. Xorn was one of them.
 
 
Aertho
16:05 / 07.04.04
All my pontificating isn't going to bruise a petrified horse. I'm ready to solidify this crapola in the /whitehotroom whevener anybody wants to get the ball rolling...
 
 
Abaddon
16:05 / 07.04.04
Please, nobody kill me for my evil, deviant ways. I am simply stating what I got from this book:
Phoenix, as has been discussed before, is the spark of creation. The driving force behind evolution, adaptation, the constant need to change and grow. Therefore, it would seem logical that each universe (or "megasystem") would have one- a personification of the anti-entropic principle. Phoenix touched off life and existence in the universe, and though each one is but a spark of the greater Phoenix Consciousness, they are powerful enough to create and maintain life in their respective universes. All life evolves toward mutantdom, specifically psychic potential. Only psychics can be a vessel for the Phoenix inherent to their specific universe, so they are the "highest' or at least purest form of life. That's why Jean is the host, and why she is the White Phoenix; she is a powerful psychic. That's Grant Morrison's "mind and brain" fixation in his awesome 42-issue run; a theme of how great mind is, and how it's the highest form of creation, the ultimate aspiration of evolution.
Sublime, on the other hand, is stagnant. A eugenic drive seems to be built into its consciousness, but it's a drive towards conformity. This goes contrary to evolution, to the mind principle, to the essence and purpose of the Phoenix. This makes Phoenix a natural enemy of Sublime; a driving force that propagates the Mean Green vmeme among the stagnancy of creation. Mutants are also a threat to Sublime, in that among their number is the host for its natural enemy: the Phoenix.
That's all I have to say for now. I thank you for your time.
 
 
Aertho
16:16 / 07.04.04
Whaoh! Somebody dropped "the Mean Green VMeme"! I'm impressed. Although I can see your rationale for that attribution, Sublime is really more narcissitic than willing to acknowledge plurality.
 
 
jephyork
06:26 / 08.04.04
Okay, this may have been discussed before, but his appearance in the White Hot Room in #154 jolts my memory:

Quentin Quire. He was an orphan, and if his deathbed ramblings are accurate, his true parents "hadn't been born yet" and were waiting for him in the White Hot Room. So there's something odd in his heritage.

And he was born on the same day the Sentinels first emerged. Coincidence or convenience?

Our old pal Sublime seems to be tied very tightly to the Sentinels, or at least the Sentinels as they appeared post-#114. The nano-Sentinels were his, the Sentinel/human hybrid Weapon Plus soldiers were his ... and, as Sublime is always active in the "dominant species", which these days means humans, he was likely present in some form when Bolivar Trask built the first Sentinel.

Sublime claims to have been finding ways to make humans and mutants fight for decades. If one can posit that Sublime has been, in some form or another, behind the ENTIRE Sentinel process, from Day One, we can go on to posit things about Quentin -- and why he was born that very day:

We know from #154 that, on earth, Quentin was very probably a potential Phoenix host. We also know that the Phoenix Corps exist to fix their universes -- the White Hot Room is a hospital for universes. And we also know that the Phoenix Corps wants to cleanse our universe of Sublime's warmongering influence.

Has anyone posited that Quentin was CREATED by the Phoenix Corps SPECIFICALLY to counter Sublime's Sentinel program? "Born" into our time by "parents" in the White Hot Room, to be a Phoenix-host cosmic-level "white blood cell" against the Sentinels?

This is why Quentin's an orphan -- this is why his parents await him in the White Hot Room -- this is why he was born the very same day the Sentinels first emerged.

So -- why did Quentin fail? Why didn't he live up to his potential, evolve into a Phoenix host, and cure the universe of Sublime's Sentinels?

Well, it's simple. He got hooked on Kick...

We saw from #154 that Sublime, through Kick, used Magneto to kill Jean, the Phoenix host that would have tried to cleanse him from the universe.

And is it coincidence that the OTHER potential Phoenix host at the time was distracted and ultimately led to his doom ... through Kick?

It's like a chess game -- Sublime creates Sentinels, Phoenix Corps counters by creating Quentin -- Sublime takes Quentin off the gameboard via Kick. Check.


I'm really starting to like the idea that Quentin was the "cosmic white blood cell" created specifically in response to the Sentinel program. Has anyone else here ever thought along these lines?

-Jeph!
 
 
CPedro
11:26 / 08.04.04
Morrison's run in one Word:
Brilliant.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:03 / 08.04.04
In the letters page for NXM #155, it is definitively stated that Appolyon is not Fantomex. Appolyon is simply the last U-Man, nothing more.
 
 
Nakkurusu
12:43 / 08.04.04
jephyork:

Well, in "Dust": Araki mentions that the Phoenix has hatched already...
Then in "Kid Omega" (the next issue, mund you) sports Miss Jean Pheonix'd up on the cover, and introduces QQ.

That's a big fat "nudge, wink and saying no more" to your theroy.
 
 
advancedplastics
13:13 / 08.04.04

sorry to be focusing on one thing here, but i'm still a bit confused by the Cassie == Weapon XI equation. Chad, and everyone else, how does the story of Cassie as Xavier's twin fit into that? does it still work? does it become false memories implanted in Chuck?
personally, i dont like the idea, at least not yet. i get why cassie is XI, in terms of the vMeme theory (which is great, and def applicable throughout the NXM run), but i can't imagine an actual history that would make it work. meaning i can't really imagine a Weapon program creating her, but i am willing to be convinced.
i do like the idea of cassie being a feeder from the future, but maybe its because some of GM's other stories feature the same logical/narrative device of the time loop (the Flash, old UK comix, prolly more).
 
 
FinderWolf
13:22 / 08.04.04
>> In the letters page for NXM #155, it is definitively stated that Appolyon is not Fantomex. Appolyon is simply the last U-Man, nothing more.

So then what about E.V.A. going "Faannnttoommexxxx?" when she sees Appolyon take off his mask & suit? Doesn't that fall under the category 'obvious storytelling'? (I'm not being snide to you, Matthew, just wondering at this seeming inconsistency by Marvel.)

Is it possible that Marvel is misreading what GM wrote? After all, they seem to have screwed up the Ernst=Cassie thing pretty well.
 
 
Aertho
13:25 / 08.04.04
Let go of the time loops.

There's no "proof" that Cassie was engineered by Weapon Plus. It's all inferred and you gotta fill in the blanks yourself.

Now as for the blanks, here's some copy/pasted posts from page 8 of this here thread.


i totally didn't think about Xorn's effect on Ernst/Cassandra. Magneto inadvertently reformed Xavier's dark side and the person who destroyed his dream in Genosha. my head is spinning.

Yeah, I was thinking just the other day about how Magneto never seems to know that one of his students is the creature who wiped out the mutants in Genosha, which is an event meant to trigger his violent attack on humanity, which in turn justifies the usage of the Weapon Plus super soldiers.

And there's my rationale for Cassandra being the genetic construct Weapon Eleven. Everything we think we know about her is memory implants and mutancies stolen from other mutants. She was released and programmed to inititiate the first phase of opening the Weapon Plus Super-Sentinel programme. Of which, she would most probably be the leader. She HATES them mutants!

what's really interesting about that is that once the plan is set in motion, it keeps going under its own inertia, even though it quite literally comes off the tracks in Paris.

- Cassie (Weapon XI) starts the ball rolling by attacking Genosha with Sentinels.
- Magneto is led into hiding and the whole Xorn ruse begins.
- Weapon XIV is sent to infiltrate the school, which simultaneously places them in a position to check Cassie before she goes too far with the Shi'ar.
- Weapons XII and XIII are being moved out of the World, presumably to get them in place to respond to Magneto's eventual attack.

however, Fantomex actively rebels. previous Weapons who were popped out into the real world (X, XI, possibly XIV) seem to have been memory-wiped first. Fantomex, crucially, was not, and he actively turns his knowledge of Weapon Plus against it. he manipulates X-Corp into destroying XII and freeing him.

the Super-Sentinels are supposed to be a team of Weapons XI-XV, but Fantomex has already taken himself and XII out of the picture, and he's gunning for XV. however, all the other parts are already in place and acting out their parts, so there's no real stopping it, since it doesn't seem like many of the pawns even know who they're really working for.

Fantomex, meanwhile, goes looking for Wolverine to recruit him for his little crusade against his creators. he starts to build a rapport with him until Logan's comfortable enough with him to take him up on his offer of going back to the World to destroy XV, which, ultimately, they succeed in doing. in the process, the dome of the World is cracked and the Weapon Plus satellite is destroyed. then Fantomex helps defeat Magneto, pre-empting the human retaliation.

I don't think that Cassandra being the "birth trauma" of Charles Xavier means that she can't also be Weapon 11. She certainly acts like she was one of Sublime's weapons, up to the part when the weapon ultimately turns against its master and is instrumental to his undoing. The Cuckoos, Fantomex/EVA, Ultimaton, and Wolverine all do their part.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
13:33 / 08.04.04
FinderWolf> Or that they're purposefully ignoring things that prevent future Fantomex spin-offs from selling.
 
  

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