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What's wrong with separatism?

 
  

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ONLY NICE THINGS
09:41 / 13.05.03
Well, it worked for a while, Andrew, it worked for a while. Are you building up to another brainfart?
 
 
Quantum
09:50 / 13.05.03
"You are a God among Insects. Never let anyone tell you otherwise." (Magneto in his dorky helmet. Played by Ian, acting everyone else off the screen)
Haus, dude, you forgot X2 in your we-need-to-get-out-more list.

Personally I'm with Magneto, the next stage of evolution should be in charge. Once I get my powers back, you'll all see what separatism really is
If I am perceived as 'Them' by someone, that pretty much 'others' them immediately, as I become 'us' to myself, instead of 'me and you'. People do it to identify with a larger group, psychologically empowering themselves.

I perceive the world as shifting reality tunnels (in some contexts) and Rage is right, if you have a fluid identity you can identify with anyone, right? If I deny separatism and embrace the unity of mankind I have to love everybody equally don't I? Like Christ, loving paedos and murderers, white trash and politicians, saints and sinners alike?

I'm not up for that, I like my ability to discriminate between groups and judge them, it's essential in life. I don't pretend to accept everybody (the BNP and Nazis like Leap are right out) but I am aware of the danger of hating a group of people you don't know just because they're not in your clique/gang/nation/race (Orwell's 1984 hate sessions etc.)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
09:54 / 13.05.03
Rememberanxe - There's a lot on the preservation of specific cultures against the melting-pot model here. It's interesting to note that that time around, the argument for global protecctionism came from the left and the argument for the "mish-mash" from the right, in essence. Part of that probably depends on your attitude to the free market - Leap believes, probably correctly, that if you stopped selling arms to countries you would get fewer refugees from those countries. I would go further and suggest that foreign aid and investment programs to build the standard of living in those countries would further stem the flow of migration. I could probably earn a lot more over my lifetime in America; academic friends of mine certainly could. One reason we don't is that our lives in our homeland are good enough not to need to become economic migrants - we have food, shelter, and other handy necessities already at hand.

Then again, maybe the next question is whether one is talking about separatism on the global level - "protecting" cultures from foreign elements or from a ravening hegemonic West - or separatism on the level of keeping communities with different cultures (or colours) separate within the same rough geographical area. For example, the BNP:

We are against mixed-raced relationships because we believe that all species and races of life on this planet are beautiful and must be preserved....We feel that to preserve the rich tapestry of mankind, we must preserve ethnic differences, not ‘mish-mash’ them together.

That's a form of protectionism, near as I can tell...

I feel a bit sorry for Rage, here - all she wanted was to be able to go "Ah! So you don't like separatism! Well, that makes you separatists! Nee na nee nee na!", and the whole thing has slipped out from under completely...
 
 
Leap
09:56 / 13.05.03
Lurid –

Leap, you might want to bear in mind that the BNP do not publicly accept the charge that they are racists. Nick Griffiths denies it regularly. Personally I don't believe them because I don't think a flat denial of something you clearly support is very convincing.

By the same token, your denial that you are similar to the BNP, when we have comparative quotes, is another flat denial. It doesn't necessarily mean you are racist, but the similarities can't be wished away by your outrage either.


How many convictions or cautions for violence do many of the BNP top-rankers (gotta be careful with that spelling) have? Several.

How many do I have? None.

There is a difference between being a Separatist (as I think I probably am) and a Supremacist (as the racists are – holding their culture to be in some way absolutely better than another, whereas separatists hold their own culture to be relatively better than another (that meaning their culture is better for THEM but not better THAN OTHERS)). The BNP make out that they are Separatists, but their history of violence and race hate marks them as Supremacists. It is a matter of whether or not you are a snob (Supremacists are, Separatists as a rule are not).

Haus –

attitude to, say, mixed-race marriages.

I have no problem with mixed RACE marriages, it is a blending of contrasting cultures / values that tends to cause problems. In the latter case, a respectful distance often proves best. I am happy to visit friends of a different religion (eating Kosher with Jewish friends, Vegan with Veegy friends etc.) but would not want to live in the same community as our values differ so much that common and serious conflict is inevitable. Occasional visiting does work though.

Quantum –

Nazis like Leap are right out

Remind me again which of us has the short blonde hair and the brown jacket?
 
 
Leap
10:01 / 13.05.03
Haus –

I would go further and suggest that foreign aid and investment programs to build the standard of living in those countries would further stem the flow of migration.

That is a rather patronising attitude Haus (unless you are promoting that we simply do so only to the point where the damage we have done is undone (limited restitution) and at which point we then cease funding them?).
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:02 / 13.05.03
An interesting quote from the Head Shop discussion linked above:

Well, "we" don't: the dominant culture's desire to preserve minority cultures is ethnocentric beyond belief. How do we square the desire to preserve our own culture with the desire to eliminate discrimination - well, I'd say an important factor is not to get all nostalgic about an 'authentic' culture set in a (past) time and a (different) place free of the 'threat' of cultural mixing since - though such alternative histories are important in constructing political strategies eg 'Africanism' in black American civil rights/Black Power movements in the 60s - there never was such a thing; it's always been a myth to preserve the status quo from 'outsiders'.

P.S. Quantum - I haven't seen X2 yet. I shall therefore not be one of us until tomorrow evening. Although I find the idea that acknowledging the unity of mankind (whatever that is) involves loving everyone a really odd one. I mean, really? Where does it say that in the guidebook. If one believes that one *can* have a unity of mankind, and I'm not sure what that means, particularly in the context of separatism, which as a terminology tends to describe people bent on boundary rather than anthroposophical change, then does believing in it necessitate loving everyone equally? Ghandi - he's a pretty good candidate, yeah? Did he love everyone equally? Bertie Russell? He seems to have made value judgements of his fellow man...

The idea that you have Christ at one end of the line and Goldstein at the other seems a bit simplistic...
 
 
Ganesh
10:06 / 13.05.03
And possibly a schitzophrenic guy flitting between personalities.

Point of information (with apologies to those who've heard me make this tired old point many, many times before): schizophrenia is not the same thing as having more than one personality (like what Haus, Leap, Rage and we does).
 
 
Quantum
10:17 / 13.05.03
Yeah, I was correpting the political concept of unitarianism-opposed-to-separatism with the moral/religious concept of unity-of-all-man. Just trying to be on topic really, my main point was defending discrimination, a related phenomenon to separatism and also linguistically co-opted by political correctness.
Ghandi and Russell were warriors for peace,(excuse the apparent paradox) and had much more separatist philosophies than most as they were protesting vehemently against a system they perceived as evil perpetuated by a group of Others they campaigned against as an enemy. I was on their side and still perceive those groups as Others and evil, and I also have that same urge to go out and fuck shit up to highlight the evil shit They (the establishment) get away with.

And to back up Ganesh, please everybody remember not to use Schizophrenia to mean Multiplt Personality Disorder.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:24 / 13.05.03
Sorry....wouldn't want to share a community with....Jews. O. K. This is exciting and different.

(Quantum - I see your point. Although I think this time you were eliding, not correpting insertsmileyhere.)
 
 
Leap
10:39 / 13.05.03
Quantum -

What "evil"(s) would you single out to begin with?
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:40 / 13.05.03
Haus, I think you must be misrepresenting Leap, since the way you put his position makes it sound really dodgy.
 
 
Quantum
10:41 / 13.05.03
Jews?
I never elide, how dare you, what do you think this is the gay sex thread? I ought to... oh wait, different word.
My intention was to corrept but I couldn't dredge the words I wanted to corrept out of my tired brain, so I had to use phrases, which of course are incorreptible.
You're discriminating against smileys now? You heartless bastard :P
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:43 / 13.05.03
Lurid. I'm sure I am. It is, for example, possible that the dietary thing was a metaphor, as otherwise he is representing "veegies", which I assume to be a nickname for "vegetarians" as a religion also:

it is a blending of contrasting cultures / values that tends to cause problems. In the latter case, a respectful distance often proves best. I am happy to visit friends of a different religion (eating Kosher with Jewish friends, Vegan with Veegy friends etc.) but would not want to live in the same community as our values differ so much that common and serious conflict is inevitable.

It doesn't *sound* like a metaphor, though.... Leap will no doubt correct me, but he does appear to be saying that more than occasional contact with Jewish people will lead inevitably to conflict, and that marrying Jewish people is right out.

But I'm sure I am misunderstanding. You're right. I was just a bit taken aback.
 
 
Punji Steak
10:59 / 13.05.03
I believe Henrik Verwoerd had similar ideas...
 
 
William Sack
10:59 / 13.05.03
Hmm, I married a Jewish woman, and apart from her slight tendency to over-cater when we entertain I haven't noticed any serious cultural conflict.
 
 
Quantum
11:01 / 13.05.03
Leap- (going from far to near) I'd start with US imperialism and the corruption accepted as the norm in their politics, Turkey's human rights abuses and genocidal attacks on the Kurds aided by British business and govt, the current state of the UK political system (voter apathy and identikit parties based on spin), the reallocation of council tax to poorer councils in the North rather than use the vast resources available at a national level (how much did the 'War' cost?) the appalling waste of money that is our welfare system, the futility of local council elections replacing one mason with another, the slavery of the average working week kept that way by businesses.....

In fact ignore all that and cast your mind back twelve years when a popular traveller band know as 'The Levellers' sang
"The year is 1991/ it seems that freedom's dead and gone/ the power of the rich is held by few
You keep the young ones paralysed/ educated by your lies/ keep the old ones happy with the news..."
and the rest. Bugger all's changed except the Leveller's aren't cool anymore (and arguably weren't then).

Haus- Leap's not anti-semitic AFAIK, I thought his point was that cultural exchange was good but cultural homogoneity was bad? I don't agree with him (I think people should marry for love and fuck the consequences) but he's not preaching ghettoisation and mass murder.
 
 
Ganesh
11:10 / 13.05.03
Xoc was vegetarian for several years before I converted him to my evil, meat-eating ways. The only "cultural conflict" I noticed was his occasional niffiness in lifts and other confined spaces.
 
 
Ganesh
11:16 / 13.05.03
In other threads, Leap's preaching exile and (dignified) mass-slaughter - but you're right, Quantum, that isn't on grounds of race/culture but physical/psychological disability. So that's alright, then.
 
 
No star here laces
11:19 / 13.05.03
Christ are you all competing to see who can hang hirself quicker or something?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:20 / 13.05.03
You appear to be confusing "wanting to put Jews in ghettos and kill them" with "being anti-semitic" with "not believing that Gentiles should marry, or indeed live with, Jews (or, presumably, Hindus or Muslims or animists)". I think somebody can hold any one, two or three of those beliefs simultaneously.

So, unless I misunderstand Leap's statement, "wouldn't want to share a community with Jews, or marry a Jew" seems a perfect description of his beliefs. One could add "does not believe that gentiles sharing a community with Jews is a good idea in general, or indeed that marrying Jews is a good idea in general for gentiles". Also, not pro-cultural exchange. Pro "occasionally visiting" other cultures. Difference.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:26 / 13.05.03
Right now, I'm trying to connect the Thule Society with the Levellers. That, perhaps, would be my greatest work. Who's leading the race to the gibbet, Laces?
 
 
Jack Fear
11:46 / 13.05.03
Okay. Getting bck to Rage's initial question,a dn ignoring the shitstorm that's developed here...

Separatism has no place in progresive politics because it's a fundamentally anti-progressive idea—it's inevitably regressive, in fact, catering to a nostalgia for the Good Old Days when things were simpler and there were no nasty darkies skulking around the bus stop and you could take a walk in the park at night et cetera.

The longest-lived and most successful separatist groups in America are the religious separatists—the Amish and Mennonite communities of Pennsylvania spring to mind. They're lovely, lovely people, of course, and I won't hear a bad word said about their lifestyles... but they're not exactly pointing the way forward, are they?

Separatist communities can work, for a time, but they cannot thrive indefinitely: cultures and communities grow strong by interacting with other communities—it's evolutionary biology writ large, where small homogeneous breeding stocks lead to mutations (not the cool X-Men kind, though—we're talking nasty stuff like congenitl diseases and birth defects), and the best hope for a robust population is unrestricted access to as large a community of potential mates as possible.

Ideas are like communities: they thrive and grow robust by doing all the things that cultures do—interacting, trading, assimilating, sometimes conquering each other. A separatist community—a community that by definition all believe the same things—spells death for intellectual growth.

The Amish are likely to be extinct as a distinct cultural group within a few generations, as their young people assimilate, their elders die off, and genetic damage caused by generations of inbreeding continues to wreak havoc on the children. That's the end result of sepratism, undertaken with the noblest of motives.

It cannot work: it cannot last: there's no returning to Edens past. Evolution demands forward motion (that's why they call it "progress"): the brave new world will be a mash-up.

So, yeah, seapartism may be radical in that it goes against the dominant progressive evolutionary paradigm: but it's also, by definition, doomed to failure.
 
 
Leap
11:47 / 13.05.03
Haus –

he does appear to be saying that more than occasional contact with Jewish people will lead inevitably to conflict, and that marrying Jewish people is right out.

I (and indeed many others I know) have a pretty serious disagreement with kosher food laws as regards meat, enough that I would not wish to make such behaviour the norm in my diet but not enough that I will not occasionally eat kosher meat that friends have prepared (it is a matter of balance and degree).

Similarly with vegan friends (VEE-gies; pronounced as in Bee-Gees). I have a fundamental disagreement on the healthiness of the vegan diet but am more than willing to eat the occasional vegan meal prepared by friends. Again, it is a matter of balance and degree.

THAT is perhaps the difference between the Nazi/Supremacists and the Non-Nazi/Separatists. The former would not be willing to do what I do.

Quantum –

Leap- (going from far to near) I'd start with US imperialism and the corruption accepted as the norm in their politics, Turkey's human rights abuses and genocidal attacks on the Kurds aided by British business and govt, the current state of the UK political system (voter apathy and identikit parties based on spin), the reallocation of council tax to poorer councils in the North rather than use the vast resources available at a national level (how much did the 'War' cost?) the appalling waste of money that is our welfare system, the futility of local council elections replacing one mason with another, the slavery of the average working week kept that way by businesses.....

So were do we start to hit back at ‘them’? [partly seriously]

In fact ignore all that and cast your mind back twelve years when a popular traveller band know as 'The Levellers' sang
"The year is 1991/ it seems that freedom's dead and gone/ the power of the rich is held by few
You keep the young ones paralysed/ educated by your lies/ keep the old ones happy with the news..."
and the rest. Bugger all's changed except the Leveller's aren't cool anymore (and arguably weren't then).


They were true words then, and still true today. [note: despite their “uncoolness” that is still one of my all-time favourite songs]

Haus- Leap's not anti-semitic AFAIK,

I am, I can assure you, most certainly not anti-semite.
 
 
Jack Fear
11:48 / 13.05.03
The sheer abundance of typos in my post above makes me want to cry.
 
 
Jub
11:50 / 13.05.03
please post your answer for the 4th time Leap.
 
 
Leap
11:54 / 13.05.03
ARRGH!

Deletes are already requested.

Sorry



I kept getting the "page not found" error when I posted
 
 
Leap
12:29 / 13.05.03
Jack –

Separatism has no place in progressive politics because it's a fundamentally anti-progressive idea—it's inevitably regressive, in fact, catering to a nostalgia for the Good Old Days when things were simpler and there were no nasty darkies skulking around the bus stop and you could take a walk in the park at night et cetera.

Or is it a reaction to things changing too quickly and simply seen as a means to slow the pace down a little (too often separatism is assumed to be “anti-change” which ignores the more simple “Whoa! Slow down” response).

The longest-lived and most successful separatist groups in America are the religious separatists—the Amish and Mennonite communities of Pennsylvania spring to mind. They're lovely, lovely people, of course, and I won't hear a bad word said about their lifestyles... but they're not exactly pointing the way forward, are they?

Just for a mo’ could you explain to me which amounts to “forwards” in this matter?

Perhaps it would help if we stopped speaking in dichotomies? By advocating a society that has more solid boundaries than the contemporary post-modern increasingly homogenised Globalist vision / nightmare (!) without resorting to “that a fine barn you have there pilgrim”, does that make that someone a separatist? Those who would support globalism would say so; the usual attacks directed at opponents are ones of accusations of being a “separatist” and/or a “protectionist”.

Personally, I am not pro fixed unchanging communities, but simply a slowing down of the change as what I see is little more than a tool for the control of society (keeping people running so fast, and with so little sense of “home ground” that revolution / serious contention with the Globalist agenda is increasingly difficult). Defined but slowly evolving boundaries are healthy. Fixed immutable ones, along with protean / non-existent ones, are both equally dangerous.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:10 / 13.05.03
Sorry, lost again. When you say:

I (and indeed many others I know) have a pretty serious disagreement with kosher food laws as regards meat, enough that I would not wish to make such behaviour the norm in my diet but not enough that I will not occasionally eat kosher meat that friends have prepared (it is a matter of balance and degree).

Is that a metaphor, or do you believe that Jews should be kept out of your community for purely dietary reasons? I mean, on the bright side you could agree about shellfish...
 
 
Leap
13:31 / 13.05.03
It is an example of the kind of serious disagreements that can arise with the attempt to blend cultures (in order to invite jewish friends over for dinner I need to provide Kosher meat, yet I object to how it is produced and thus this would prove impossible to do on a regular basis. Regular serious disagreement is not something to build a community on).
 
 
Jub
13:35 / 13.05.03
Regular serious disagreement is not something to build a community on

..... but still Barbelith thrives!!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:38 / 13.05.03
There's always the possibility that you could provide a non-meat dish. You know, maybe a salad. Some fish. Or meet for a drink instead. Or go to the theatre.

Just a thought.
 
 
Leap
13:44 / 13.05.03
Jub –

Regular serious disagreement is not something to build a community on

..... but still Barbelith thrives!!


Ah, but is this a community or merely a talking shop?

In truth, when SERIOUS disagreements arise I would expect that one party is banned / asked to leave (such as if someone came on and started posting child porn, as an example)….. Serious is not so much a measure of how much you disagree but of how important the disagreement is.

Haus –

There's always the possibility that you could provide a non-meat dish. You know, maybe a salad. Some fish. Or meet for a drink instead. Or go to the theatre.

Just a thought.


It was an example. A similar one might be animals rights activists living with the staff of Huntingdon life sciences, for a more extreme example anyway!
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
13:47 / 13.05.03
It was an example. A similar one might be animals rights activists living with the staff of Huntingdon life sciences, for a more extreme example anyway!
Yes, and still the point would be what? I'm pretty good mates with the most staunch vegan I know, and still she's been out for me with big, hearty dinners wherein she didn't have meat and I did. She has ethical problems with my carnivorous lifestyle, but we still get on, and are, as I say, good friends. How is the belief system here a problem, exactly, given that in close quarters, people tend to react on a person-to-berson basis?
 
 
Quantum
13:47 / 13.05.03
"In other threads, Leap's preaching exile and (dignified) mass-slaughter - but you're right, Quantum, that isn't on grounds of race/culture but physical/psychological disability. So that's alright, then." (Ganesh)
And I didn't agree with that either. So that's alright then.

Political seperatism is anti-progressive, ("whoa, slow down!") which suits those who think we are progressing too fast. People are naturally separatist though- for example the UK's entrance into the EU is vehemently opposed.

Personally I wish it would go one way or another, global government or local government. But global government will never work (if you think making a Kosher dinner is hard try mediating between China and America, or Palestein and Israel, or etc etc.) and local government (at least in the form of Leapworld) has been ripped to shreds in these very pages.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:52 / 13.05.03
In truth, when SERIOUS disagreements arise I would expect that one party is banned / asked to leave...

You would expect that, yes. But in practice, that's not what actually happens here, in the vast majority of cases.

So perhaps homogeneity of thought is not as valid, natural, and self-evidently right a postion as you think it is.
 
  

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